Rent a tech Union debate

[SloGlo]

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What we need is a national bargaining representative working on the other issues mentioned above: Minimize/justify why in a post-911 America foreign techs are needed, and is sufficient background done , union should provide/sponsor training courses so that any duespayer can start as a deconner and become 3.1 with documented classroom/hands-on training, grievance/Unfair Labor Practice representation (big bonus bucks dont help if you are escorted offsite with an adverse PADS entry, never able to Red Badge again, wouldn't you at least like some due process there?). I didn't forget healthcare...who better would have the advantage of a large group plan, a handful of freelance radtechs...or techs under the umbrella of a national union?

this is da nut of the arguement.  'n it comes down to what this country really stands for, which is to not ask what can be done for you, but what you can do.  iffen some of these points started getting put into play, then the other issues such as pay would follow. 

[Chimera]

Okay . . . I'll throw in my two-cents worth on this issue.  Over the past 30+ years in this industry, I've worked both union and non-union and I've been part of management.  I resisted the move to unionize back in the late 70's for a number of reasons.  A lot of the techs I was working around back then at Millstone came into this business while they were on strike at General Dynamics.  That didn't bode well, IMO.  Also, I feared that the people that attempted to make life miserable back then would end up in the heirarchy of the union taking their favoritism and other undesirable (IMO) attitudes with them.  I was not a supporter of a union for road techs back and I'm still not.
Union protectionism is a two-edged sword.  It might provide higher pay for all, but I've also seen it protect techs that didn't deserve their paychecks.  Will this come back to haunt us in the future?  I don't know, but I'm perfectly capable of giving myself my own black eyes without inheriting them from other techs.
Another point to consider is that we (HP/RP Techs) are not production oriented.  We are considered to be more of an over-sight group such as Safety.  We don't turn the valves, move the rods or rebuild the pumps.  The only factor most plants have to play with in controlling their own spending is the cost of their staffing.  The plant and fuel costs are pretty much fixed.  That's what all the "down sizing" and "right sizing" stuff was all about in the 80's and 90's.  If we price ourselves too high, then rad safety will be rolled into the other generic safety issues that each plant employee is responsible for.  That's been attempted before by INPO and will be done again in order to protect the bottom line for each plant.  The logical consequence to this will be fewer techs working in over-sight positions during shorter outages.
Most plant union contracts are agreements between that local utility and the local union group.  Those contracts take into account a lot of factors that a "national union" such as that being proposed would not and could not address.  Well, I suppose it could but each site would have its own codicils to the contract.  Also, each of those local contracts are between the work force as a whole and the plant.  At best, there might be a separate contract for the workers and the clerical staff.  We would come in with a separate contract just for contractor HP Techs.  That probably wouldn't bode well with the locals unless, once again, there were codicils to our national contract that would keep it in agreement with their local contracts.
Unite?  By all means.  Don't go to the lower paying plants.  I've noticed that when a plant has trouble staffing, the pay rates tend to go up until an acceptable staffing level is reached.
In my humble opinion, a new national contract would not be any more successful now than it has been in the past (read through the statements in this thread).  There are a handful of people out there I might trust to pull it off, but I have no idea who would or could ride herd on all of us roadies to keep us in line.

[HydroDave63]

Do rad techs in Canada or Europe have unions?

[RadBastard]

I've always thought pick a couple of plants say 2 or 3 that nobody and I mean nobody sumits to.This would be a good forum to pick the plants.There is still plenty of work out there if nobody goes to those plants.Then they will pump up the wages because they are desprate.Look at what happened to wolf creek,they only had 10 techs go there.Then the money and diem went thru the roof then they staffed.The other plants may take notice of this and not want the same to happen to them in the future.Then the wages may go up with out unionizzzzzing
What do you think of this idea everybody???

[Rennhack]

http://www.nukeworker.com/maps/polls.php

[SloGlo]

but I've also seen it protect techs that didn't deserve their paychecks. 

lol!!!  like dis stuff don't go awn ina recruiting offices, staffing offices, 'n thru aught da good ole boyz network.  roflmao!!!  iffen we deal wit it ebbery day as iz, whatz da diff?

[nowhereman]

The rent-a-tech business hardly seems like it is a postive working model(except for batlett).........How about first a real working graduated pay scale/training model for junior Hp's, why do juniors have to go to 5 years of outages at the same payrate, why not every 500 or 1000hrs a pay rate bump up( it can't be that hard if Bartlett can micro manage their hours on the resume). Why would I be so concerned for a junior hp graduated pay scale? may be it would extend to senior hp's! to think that pay would go up with experience........(what an outdated idea.......)
Next.......how about some  union clout (bartlett has none) to persuade  the utilties to stop stacking the outages in a six week time period........
then.......how about some benefits.........(I would have to be kidding myself)

[RRhoads]

thats like asking why it cost Jrs less per diem to live on, when jrs made less per diem...(that was NOT part of the wage BTW)

[SloGlo]

iffen a jhpt wansta make more moola, he shud take spanish 'n be a transalor.  aughta be wurth a doller 'n our moor.

[illegalsmile]

justify why in a post-911 America foreign techs are needed

that's easy....they can't get enough American Techs to work for the money they're offering and the treatment they're giving. The people doing the staffing will tell you there aren't enough techs in d'bidness these days, but I guess they've never seen a supply and demand curve.

[BeerCourt]

Do rad techs in Canada or Europe have unions?

It has been a few years, but the RP's in Canada were union.  They didn't have actual RP Tchnicians as we think of them until recently.  The "Health Physics" Techs. were union too.  There were about three of them on the eight-unit site.  They didn't do job coverage or surveys.
Operators did routine surveys.
HPT's did highly technical stuff like shipping of high-level waste, calibrating sources, etc.
Instruments were calibrated and maintained by electricians and instrument techs.
Decon was done by "Civil Maintenance" who also cleaned the toilets, took out the trash, cleaned the intake screens, etc.
Anyone who had a yellow or green square on his TLD did his own surveys & job coverage.  The "techs" wouldn't even ask you why you were there if you had your own meter.  If you weren't on the crew they were covering, you were none of their business.
All these people belonged to the Power Workers' Union if they were "house" or the building trades unions if they were contractors.

Job coverage and job surveys were done by "Green Men"  who were people of all trades who were trained in RP procedures.  If Boilermakers, Electricians, Millwrights, and Pipefitters were all working in one area, they might have had one Green Man for each trade.  On large projects, this was handled by clumping all the green men from various trades into a single RP department that was similar to ours.  These people (except the Americans) were members of their respective unions and were paid the scale for their individual trades at the foreman's rate. (I once worked there as a contractor removing broken fuel pencils from the pool.  The "techs" who covered me would have been union Millwrights - except that I was self-monitor qualified and got no coverage).

On smaller projects, they would just pick one of the guys who had a green badge, upgrade him to foreman's pay for the shift, and have him do the coverage.

Since then, they have been hiring a bunch of contingent workers as techs to cover outages.  They are all PWU members as I am told. 

Managers belong to a union called "The Society".  Some of the supervisors actually belonged to both the Society and their own trade unions at the same time.

[klsas]

Being neither pro or anti-union, I only see one real solution to the debate. The individual locals will have to include contractor's in their contracts with the national union maintaining benefits for monthly dues when away from the local. Some plants already require union dues from the contractor's in return for certain wages (i.e. Clinton). Until the individual locals or the national IBEW or other unions decide to get involved, things will continue as they are. It has been said on this site many times. Don't accept jobs to the lower paying plants and then compalin about the wages and treatment. Just my two cents.

Keith

[duke99301]

IF you want to be Union go house.
any one know what IBEW  stand for?
I Block Every Walk way.
an do any of you know what a Flea is? IBEW has them.
heck even some sites the eng have a Union . and They are house.
take the money you would give the union and buy a shares in Enron. ha ha.

[SloGlo]

that's easy....they can't get enough American Techs to work for the money they're offering and the treatment they're giving. The people doing the staffing will tell you there aren't enough techs in d'bidness these days, but I guess they've never seen a supply and demand curve.

same arguements used to justify da illegals in agriculture, horticulture, painting, construction, etcetera.  it seems to be working everywhere in this country.  iffen we gits rid of illegals, wages rise 'n americans work.  when alla citizens are working, den da wages rise to entice workers to use der brains 'n git them up the income ladder.  since we are in a "pass thru" service industry, it only makes sense to start it here.  iffen wages fer a seasoned shpt went to $33/hr 'n peedee for da region, betcha lotsa peeple would git back into da biz.  which wood open up da bartending slots.  'n git da lawncare workers behind the bar insted of in front of it.  etcetera.
'n eye ain't slamming barhelp.  a good tarbender in a decent place will pocket a cupla hundy a day.  which is about $33/hr.  but da health care is a killer for dem, so they'll come back fer da bennies.  witch alot of posts here say dat are unappreciated. 

[HydroDave63]

exactly who is "nobody"?

which dog won't hunt?

[illegalsmile]

same arguements used to justify da illegals in agriculture, horticulture, painting, construction, etcetera.  it seems to be working everywhere in this country.  iffen we gits rid of illegals, wages rise 'n americans work.  ...... da bennies.  witch alot of posts here say dat are unappreciated. 

I didn't mean to imply that any of the Euro-Techs were illegal. All of them I worked with were great people and there wasn't one that didn't meet any reasonable standards of competence or professional conduct, but I do have a problem with them being brought in to keep our wages down.
As for the bennies, you've gotta mean 4-6 months' vacation/year.....that's the only one I get.

[SloGlo]

I didn't mean to imply that any of the Euro-Techs were illegal. All of them I worked with were great people and there wasn't one that didn't meet any reasonable standards of competence or professional conduct, but I do have a problem with them being brought in to keep our wages down.
As for the bennies, you've gotta mean 4-6 months' vacation/year.....that's the only one I get.

eye wuzant taking da euro-techs were illegal, itz just da same arguement even iffen it is for legals in this case.  'n they keep da wages down, as due da illegals.  which is watt i meant by "same arguement".
'n da bennies... well, that's my arguement too.  thanks, 'n a tip of da karma kap two yinz.

[Marssim]

which dog won't hunt?

the dog is the "rent a tech union",....

[BuddyThePug]

So, you would also have a problem when we go over to say, Europe and work?

Is it "fair" to lower US rad tech salaries and have hundreds of rad tech positions at risk, just to benefit a handful of overseas traveling techs and reciprocity agreements for a couple bodyshops?

[JJordan]

The real dog is, or are, the rent a tech HP's. Which I used to be, and may soon become one again. The reason they bring in HP's from other countries is because, they can't fully staff the outages. The utilities are the culprits here. This is why you need a union. Note I didn't say "we", because I don't have a dog in this fight, I just offered to help get a movement going. I participated in the ill fated past organization effort also, and I understand the pain. I went to several meetings at BV, and Radbastard was there also. I know it wasn't handled properly as i said before. First, the IBEW doesn't advise you to strike, this is a last resort, not the first option. I don't even believe we had a hearing with the NLRB, wich we should have. This effort was missguided from the start. Contract technicians desperatly need a union. More so than house techs. If I fail an FFD, I get a second chance. How many do you get? If I get in any kind of trouble, I get a letter in my file. You hear "And the contractor was released", never to return, and it may just well impact your employment elsewhere in the industry. Think about it. I know I need a union, you do too! If you think you are irreplaceable, go stick your hand in a 5 gallon bucket of water, then pull it out and tell me what kind of void you created! The utilities will replace you one by one, for as little investment as possible. They have been doing it for years already. That's smart business, There is strenghth innumbers, band together! I read it on a post here, business is "war". Do you want to be a causualty or a survivor? I make at least $10.00/ hr more than a contractor, I have a pension, a better 401K, subsidized health care, I work steady all year long, have paid vacation, 13 paid holidays,and sleep in my own bed, if I ain't in any trouble at home! Why should you work for any less? I've always contended that it's harder beeing a rentatech, because you have to be very quick and versitle. For that you should be compensated. I left the rentatech ranks for a lot of thoose reasons, but everyone can't go house. The utilities are trying to do with fewer of us too. War, remember? It's time to lick your wounds, pick up the banner, and do it right this time! If you don't, come to one of the outages, and sit in the sustandard break room, and cry and whine about how bad you have it! Some of us house techs will break bad on you, get you laid off early (3 weeks instead of 4 like you were promised) Because we can and will! Trust me, I'm from the utility, and it pays me to finish the outage early and under budget! Oh I guess I forgot to mention that. We get incentive bonuses for all of that! What was it that you get? Laid off. I still remember, and hate it for you. I'm trying to help.
Love you guys,
JJ

[SloGlo]

So, you would also have a problem when we go over to say, Europe and work?

are we being blamed for supressing there wages?  iffen so, den we shood stay home, leesen the suppression of their wages nets in an increase of our wages.  then, since biz is war, plunder is legal.  butt, whatcha gonna due, i don't half a problem wit legal workers in our country.  if they're bean blamed for low wages, then it is that same argument as the illegals.  but, at least da legals are doing it rite, 'n i due knot take issue.

[BuddyThePug]

are we being blamed for supressing there wages?  iffen so, den we shood stay home, leesen the suppression of their wages nets in an increase of our wages. 

naaah, that dog won't hunt   

[JJordan]

Getting off topic a little bit here. Foreign techs don't suppress the wages, utilities do. Do you think that they would go through the extra security hassle if there were plenty of american techs available? They won't raise the rates until they exhaust all of the other lower priced options. The topic is the benefit of a union, somehow we got off onto illeagle aliens and huntin dawgs!
JJ

[Chimera]

Well said, JJordan.  While I agree with the contents of your post, I also assume that all the roadies know these points.  Well, I can only speak for myself in that regard, but I know all your points and I have chosen to be a roadie versus a house tech (having been a house tech in the past).  I voluntarily surrendered all those lovely perks (rotating shift work, capricious managerial decisions, etc.) for a life on the road where I get to take 4 to 6 months off each year to spend with my children and grandchildren.  I felt differently when I was still raising a family.  I wanted to be home every day back then.  To be honest, that was my only reason for becoming a house tech.  Once they were grown and off on their own, I recaptured my freedom and went back on the road.  Would I like all the protectionism that is built into the concept of a union?  Most certainly.  However, I also remember a decided lack of protection from the union, too.  Being out here on the road is my choice.  I have my own IRAs, health care, and insurance.  It is my responsibility to take care of myself.  So I choose the jobs I want knowing full well what to expect while I'm at that particular job (hours, scope of work, pay scale, duration, etc.).  For those things I didn't expect, I adapt . . . and I remember for future reference.

I have noticed that, when I was a house tech, the job became my life.  I still hear it in conversations amongst the house techs at various sites.  Every little slight and/or perceived injustice seems to become a personal crusade because the "job" is so closely integrated into your "life".  As a roadie, the "job" is separate and distinct from my "life".  The job just pays for my life (travel, kids, etc.).  I don't think I would want this job to achieve the same level of importance in my life that it did when I was a house tech.

[JJordan]

Chimera,
Thoose are some very valid points. I too as a contract HP enjoyed a lot of what you mentioned. There are distinct advantages and disadvantages to both sides. You have to make a choice and make it work for you. I used the creative unemployment as my paid vacation. I liked not getting drug into the political battles. Rotating shifts suck, but in outage as a contractor, you are usually either nights or days. I hate nights, but usually was stuck with them, both then and now. (maybe a union could make it more equitable) The measure of a good outage as a contractor was: I got through it, made some money, and they barely remember my name. Unfortunately being technician "A" several times, I would have liked to have had someone in my corner. The right of due process is the most important issue of all. When you have issues like theese, you find that your friends are no longer your friends. Everyone ducks their head and go into the survival mode! I managed to survive all of my ordeals, a lot of RPM's, and supervisors had to look for work. I don't beleive even though I survived, that the end result was fair and or equitable. I feel that if a union was involved, that a lot of injustices could be prevented or at least lessened to a certain extent. if you are cleared of all charges, and then released prematurely, never to return. is this fair? It's against the law, but it happens almost everytime a contractor is involved in any incadent. Nothing is ever written down, but everyone still remembers. There will be some people reading this remembering very painfull times. All of you contractors, need to keep your head down, and pray this never happens to you! You need to do this daily, because every time you go past that line and do any work, you are at risk. You can be fired, fined and imprisoned, if the people involved choose to "do" you, in order to save their own skin, and job. The playing field is heavily slanted toward the house side hear. One of the reasons they hire contractors, is for legal liabilities. It also gives them an out. "The contractor was released" usually appeases all of the parties concerned, except for the poor victim which may someday be YOU!
Think about it!
JJ

[Rufus]

I gotta ask. Are you actually in a union now? Or petitioning for one. You paint a much rosier picture of the IBEW than the one I know.....

[ShovelHeadRed]

 ......JJordan, you spew a large crock of crap..........when have you ever heard of, seen or been involved in a technician being fined or imprisoned for anything?, fired yes...but the rest of that is junk..........and how about this union that gets you on days when you want it..sometimes you just have to work nights,,,house or RAT....... this is not a perfect world we live in..at the nuclear plant or at home....I agree a union can help the workers, that is what they are for.....but they do not make a perfect situation, as you are trying to get some of these techs to believe....we have worked in this business as long, or longer than you have...we have worked house, contract, DOE, DOD, EPA....union and non-union work...and some of us agree with some of what you say,,,,BUT YOU ARE RUNNING A DEAD HORSE IN THE GROUND.....I enjoy a good argument, and have started a few myself, just to see how they go....and I think I need to start a new one here........btw, do you have brown eyes?........red

[ShovelHeadRed]

...I left something out...this technician A thing....if you were involved in a situation that put you in that technician A seat....then evidently you let something get by you.....you may need a union to save yourself......I myself, have never been in that seat...maybe it was luck, maybe it was the prayer, maybe its because I was DOING MY JOB........but I dont think I need a union, because I am afraid of losing my job, because I radio'd a survey..maybe didnt do an air sample....missed a couple smears I/S the valve they were opening...had my meter on the wrong scale........do your job, self check yourself....make the deal, you want financially at the beginning of the outage, always have a backup plan...draw Mass unemployment...dont overextend yourself at the bank....and enjoy every summer and winter 7 days a week at least 26 weeks a year at home....not worrying about security, rent a techs, unions , breakrooms or arguing with some one you dont even know who they are......what do you think...AMERICA??

[RRhoads]

Chimera,
Thoose are some very valid points. I too as a contract HP enjoyed a lot of what you mentioned. There are distinct advantages and disadvantages to both sides. You have to make a choice and make it work for you. I used the creative unemployment as my paid vacation. I liked not getting drug into the political battles. Rotating shifts suck, but in outage as a contractor, you are usually either nights or days. I hate nights, but usually was stuck with them, both then and now. (maybe a union could make it more equitable) The measure of a good outage as a contractor was: I got through it, made some money, and they barely remember my name. Unfortunately being technician "A" several times, I would have liked to have had someone in my corner. The right of due process is the most important issue of all. When you have issues like theese, you find that your friends are no longer your friends. Everyone ducks their head and go into the survival mode! I managed to survive all of my ordeals, a lot of RPM's, and supervisors had to look for work. I don't beleive even though I survived, that the end result was fair and or equitable. I feel that if a union was involved, that a lot of injustices could be prevented or at least lessened to a certain extent. if you are cleared of all charges, and then released prematurely, never to return. is this fair? It's against the law, but it happens almost everytime a contractor is involved in any incadent. Nothing is ever written down, but everyone still remembers. There will be some people reading this remembering very painfull times. All of you contractors, need to keep your head down, and pray this never happens to you! You need to do this daily, because every time you go past that line and do any work, you are at risk. You can be fired, fined and imprisoned, if the people involved choose to "do" you, in order to save their own skin, and job. The playing field is heavily slanted toward the house side hear. One of the reasons they hire contractors, is for legal liabilities. It also gives them an out. "The contractor was released" usually appeases all of the parties concerned, except for the poor victim which may someday be YOU!
Think about it!
JJ

well...it seems that YOUR story is becoming more clear from the above statement.
If you're happy about the situation you're in, great. Glad for you.Sounds like you need to be in a union tho.
But not everyone shares your views on the Union issue...& i doubt you could speak for everyone...& it sounds a little "preachy".
I am a union House Tech....I do enjoy the benefits union..but do i need "protection"?..prob not. I worked on the road for 14 yrs as a HP Tech & was never tech "A".
But how many times does a person reach the level of tech "A" before the realize that it might not just be circumstances or the utilities that are conspiring against them???
Just some food for thought.

[SloGlo]

"tech a" ain't a title to be bandered about lightly.  iffen yinz are doing watt yer told, 'n dune it within procedures, protocols, 'n regs when something goes south shud ya be two blame?  yet peeps are.  iffen engineers don't analyze every aspect 'n one that is overlooked is to blame, is it yer fault?  yet da blame game goes on.  'n contractors are the wons at the end of the rope.  like jjordan sez, everybuddy is turtleing n@ while "tech a" is saddling up.  itza fact of life.  butt, whacha gonna due?