Rent a tech Union debate

[RDTroja]

Let's play "The Price Is Right"

Behind Door Number One:...

but you still haven't told us the name of the company behind door #1. could it be there is nobody behind door #1?

Don't expect an answer. He hasn't even figured out that there is no 'Door Number 1' in 'The Price is Right.' The doors were in 'Let's Make a Deal.' Carol Merrill would be so disappointed.

[ShovelHeadRed]

.."RD"..Great reply..I agree with you...I have worked with some of the best people in the world in this business, some of them I have known since the canoe club in the 80's...alot of them knew me and remember things about me that I don't....I have been sober and clean for 10 years...I still get people reminding me of " the old daze"...well those old daze, aren't what I am about now...I like you chose to take a different route other than RP, spent some of my money on courses, spent my off time under instruction on the Manipulator crane...and got a different job..I have a couple marriages, and my wife now has alot better husband than my first wife.....and I would like to thank Rhennhack for starting and keeping this website going, we can talk freely( well most of the time)..and discuss, debate and state our opinions..especially about this topic..and get alot of information about our friends and family...and occaisionaly a job...this topic is about a union,,,well I hope it works, because we have tried before, not successfully, because it wasn't tried the best way, nor by the best people and the information that was put out about it was hit and miss,,,with NUKEWORKER.COM...you get it now....the information age,,the 21st century might just put contract RP technicians salaries and benefits where they should be...and with all the hype about new construction, this industry is getting ready to bust wide open like it was when we first started.....just a reply from an old squid, turned biker...that can't remember working Oconee...but I do remember cash per diem from IRM....red

[DJ@Clintonnomore]

I have been in this industry at varying jobs (mostly RP related) since 1974. I am not Pissed Off (occasionally I have been of course, but show me someone who has not) nor have I had a heart attack, stroke, Asbestos problems, lead poisoning, Cancer or suicidal thoughts. I don't smoke, but I do drink, but not to excess, except for you people that think one or two drinks a day is excessive. I have been divorced 3 times -- once before I started traveling, once after I stopped traveling (my second wife was a tech too) and once that was due to end before I started traveling again. I don't blame any of them on my job. The only self-medicating I do is with Homeopathic remedies.

However, I have worked with some of the best people in the world (and a few that most certainly do not fit in that category.) At least you got one small part right.



This job is not for everybody. For those that hate it there is an easy way out.

RD,  I was just generalizing or trying to capture all the things I seen or done which is impossible. It was not met to be a slam on anybody or Rad Techs in general. It good to be careful. But with this post I was trying to have people think a Little bit more positively. Instead of all the negative things about the past. You know I could write a small text on what I don't like and novel on what I do. Sorry if I offend you.  DJ 

[RDTroja]

RD,  I was just generalizing or trying to capture all the things I seen or done which is impossible. It was not met to be a slam on anybody or Rad Techs in general. It good to be careful. But with this post I was trying to have people think a Little bit more positively. Instead of all the negative things about the past. You know I could write a small text on what I don't like and novel on what I do. Sorry if I offend you.  DJ 

I am not offended, just pointing out that not all contract HPs are pissed off about their lot in life. Or alcoholics, drug users, or otherwise poisoned by their job. In my experience, those that feel particularly abused in this industry did a lot to bring it on themselves... or at least did nothing to prevent it.

[HenryBlack]

Seems to me that this "New Company" is all to mysterious. In my 26+ years I have heard of and seen a lot of New Companies come and go, but I've never seen one that wouldn't at least let you know their name. If everyone wants a union then the news should be easier to find. I work pretty much where I want to and when I want to and make what I agree to. I too have worked with a lot of great people and a lot of slugs but I at least decide for myself where that is going to be. My advice would be to work hard, show up on time and stay till the end and then your name will be good enough to keep you working. If there was a union for Rent-a-techs then I would probably join but I would have to see more about it first.

[Marssim]

Let's play "The Price Is Right"

Behind Door Number One:
We have a company willing to pay you $35/hr for a Sr RP Tech, the federal per diem rate, federal travel, and a comprehensive health benefit package. You are represented by a nationwide union that will have a ratified agreement on overtime hours, holidays, meals, sick time, representation during disciplinary action, and a pension plan...............

Please PM me here so I can submit my resume and you can send me an offer letter and benefits package,...

Stay tuned folks, I'll keep you posted on how well the ubercompany treats me,....

The IN BOX is still empty,........

[incrediblehulk]

Great post, Henry. Karma to ya!

[shane3106]

   I know I'm newer to the business than most. I also understand that I have a lot to learn as well. I also know that with unions it protects how do you say, certain people. We have all worked with subpar coworkers and are pretty fed up with that. Every outage we do, go to we see the same "desk techs" Making the same amount of money as us go getters. I have trouble backing an idea with out more proof. The idea sounds awesome, I would love to be represented, benefits, more money, a little more job security. But, at the same time, I can't afford to put all my trust into this idea yet. Unless with out a doubt, there is more concrete evidence. I'm not trying to step on my fellow peers feelings or be the pessimistic puke. Before everyone gets all emotionally attached to this, let's get the facts straight. Of course the recruiters at Bartlett and Atlantic are bending the truth. They have jobs, they forget with out those of us field workers, not just Techs, they wouldn't have jobs. I don't know the numbers, but there are those that have been a contractor, laborer, etc. Seems to me they have forgotten where they came from. Am I wrong for feeling and thinking as I do. Without cold hard facts, I wouldn't feel right paying dues to a group of people that have will not represent me, my fellow coworkers. I don't like the fact that we bust our rearends day in and day out, we get lower per Diem's, hourly pay, caped travel even with the sickening rise of gas prices. I love going to outages and spending a ton of money on room and board and now a ton of gas, especially when I still have a mortgage payment.

[BeerCourt]

You see my point?  Look at your post.  We ALREADY have the weak, the lame (figuratively speaking), the untrained and the lazy working alongside the heavy hitters for the same pay.  Now, if someone has a disability that makes it necessary for them to work their shifts at the desk, the LAW protects them - not a union and not the company.  What we are talking about here is actually those who are not handicapped, but lazy or incapable.  The concept that a union protects these second-tier techs is not enough of an argument against unionizing.  They are ALREADY protected by the companies who keep putting them to work - because they charge for them by the hour, and and hour is an hour.

Like I keep saying:  I 'm not advocating that everyone jump up and join a union.  But, whenever I see an argument for or against one, I'm going to challenge it.  That way, the decision will not be based on a lot of emotions and untested ideas - like this one.  There are workers on the job who can't or won't pull their weight.  They are here without a union; they will be here with a union.  As far as I can tell, this argument is a wash.

Your second argument - that your work is arranged by, and your interests are protected by, persons who are out of touch with the workers in the field.  That is always going to be true.  Even those who used to do the job back in the day are somewhat out of the loop with the way things are today.  In fact, they are even more jaded by their own past (and irrelevant to today) experiences.

The question for you is this:  If you don't like what you are getting, what are you going to do to change it?  You may come to the conclusion that it is impossible for you to better your lot as long as you stay with the same job.  That was my answer.  There are too many people who are more than happy to travel on their own time, for less than the maximum mileage and per diem allowances, and not-so-great pay.  You try to upset their little comfort wagon and they are going to kick you off.

Go back to college, broaden your scope of abilities, polish your resume, and start shopping for a better job.  Leave this one for the ones who like it the way it is.

[justme]

Wish there was something out there that was worthwhile.  What is out there is just a repeat of the past for more money per month.  Nothing concrete to offer, just empty promises.  And for those who say "Open a line of communication with them (NPUA) and read the website", many of us have and still nothing concrete, just empty promises and trust us.  Why should we trust someone who is self appointed and not voted in.  Sounds more like a company than a union.

I think things will change with experience leaving the field and non experience and those who are either lazy or don't or cant work left.
 Just the way it looks from a workers stand point.

[LaFeet]

You see my point?  Look at your post.  We ALREADY have the weak, the lame (figuratively speaking), the untrained and the lazy working alongside the heavy hitters for the same pay.  Now, if someone has a disability that makes it necessary for them to work their shifts at the desk, the LAW protects them - not a union and not the company.  What we are talking about here is actually those who are not handicapped, but lazy or incapable.  The concept that a union protects these second-tier techs is not enough of an argument against unionizing.  They are ALREADY protected by the companies who keep putting them to work - because they charge for them by the hour, and and hour is an hour.

 Here Here... cive that guy a harumph!!

This is so true.... and unfair to boot.   I don't mind busting my buttocks for my pay.  I even take pride in the work I do, push myself to do the best that I can.  But I get steamed when I see the turd that cant or wont climb a ladder or has a problem dressing out  and gets paid the same or more than I do.

[RadBastard]

The thing I hate is when I always get picked to do those so called TECH A and A- jobs and get the same as the ones who always sit the control points.
The utilities always seem to get the few who they trust and the rest just seem to muddle along and get the same pay.
I'm not sure of a solution for this problem but im open to suggestions.
Maybe the union could scale something on time in the bizz/jobs that you have covered.
I don't know.

[Melrose]

The solution is simple.  Utilities need to stop hiring the 'psuedo-techs' that practice smashing their asses all day because that's what they've been doing to get their time.  They have NO initiative, no ambition, no useful purpose.

Alas.... that'll never happen.  The utilities bring in warm/luke warm bodies just fill the numbers.

Until the utilities consider RP/HP techs a useful tool in their everyday/outage operation, they'll never care who they bring in, much less whether you do the work of the three geriatric, out of shape techs left to play access nazi.

Come in, do the work assigned, leave. 

Sorry, that's just the way it is.  A union is just gonna protect the slugs, and give them leverage if they ever are denied work.
Look at union house techs across the country.  Lots are worth more than their weight.  A little more are riding the union card, and the utility is better off without them, but they're stuck.... because of the union.

[UncaBuffalo]

The thing I hate is when I always get picked to do those so called TECH A and A- jobs and get the same as the ones who always sit the control points.
The utilities always seem to get the few who they trust and the rest just seem to muddle along and get the same pay.
I'm not sure of a solution for this problem but im open to suggestions.

How 'bout if the contracts had a special pay for 'Returnee Hot-Job-Coverage Guru'?

[RDTroja]

How 'bout if the contracts had a special pay for 'Returnee Hot-Job-Coverage Guru'?

It would still come down to someone's friend getting the desigantion.

[Chimera]

The thing I hate is when I always get picked to do those so called TECH A and A- jobs and get the same as the ones who always sit the control points.
The utilities always seem to get the few who they trust and the rest just seem to muddle along and get the same pay.
I'm not sure of a solution for this problem but im open to suggestions.
Maybe the union could scale something on time in the bizz/jobs that you have covered.
I don't know.

How would we determine if the work was actually done?  Go by the resume write up?  Should they base pay premiums on dose received in previous outages or lifetime totals or should a bonus be paid based on the most dose received during the outage?  Wouldn't we need some way to discover if the job was done effectively?  What if that's the only plant that utilizes that particular tech in that sort of critical position?  Would they lose or keep the premium on subsequent jobs?  Should the union/utility pay a premium based solely on time spent in the business?  The arguments for pay based on "merit" or "time in grade" can work both ways in "real life" as we have all seen.  As far as that goes, how would we determine the relative "merits" between positions?  Is the Yard-dog who spends most of his time smearing and clearing any less critical to the success of the utility and their outage than the tech who covers generator work or deconning the cavity?
And, lastly, how would a union address these (and other) issues to the mutual satisfaction of the utilities and the Techs?

[UncaBuffalo]

It would still come down to someone's friend getting the desigantion.

I don't mind if they take the designation...as long as they can pull their weight...

How would we determine if the work was actually done?  Go by the resume write up? 

That's why I think it would have to be for returnees only...

[RAD-GHOST]

Sure seems strange that one of the Big Icons of the industry, (INPO, NRC, NRRPT, ANS, Contract Companies), hasn't stepped forward to set some sort of criteria for the industry?

The feedback seems to be the same across the board, about 2:5 techs working the outage!  3:5 supporting the outage!  I heard a couple of Technicians actually pushed the ALARA venue at a couple of utilities, 40% of the Tech's with 90% of the department dose!  That's a rather interesting statistic for identifying the effectiveness of an ALARA program!  If those individuals are that critical to the safe and efficient support of the project, shouldn't they receive some sort of premium for their risk? 

In case anyone lost track of the Risk Factor, Ionizing Radiation is still on that List!

Although I don't believe that dose should be use as a performance indicator, I find it unreasonable for two qualified ANSI 3.1 seniors to have a difference in dose of 2 mr vs. 400 mr at any project!  If the pay's the same and the stay's the same, then the dose should also be relatively equal!

Kind of Obtuse, don't you think..............RG!

[PWHoppe]

Although I don't believe that dose should be use as a performance indicator, I find it unreasonable for two qualified ANSI 3.1 seniors to have a difference in dose of 2 mr vs. 400 mr at any project!  If the pay's the same and the stay's the same, then the dose should also be relatively equal!

Kind of Obtuse, don't you think..............RG!

I have seen technicians covering the same high dose job with wide variances in exposure. At first glance one would think that the technician with more dose is obviously doing a better job of controlling the work than the technician who has 1/2 of the exposure of the first technician.

Upon further review you find that the technician with double the dose is in reality just hanging around the higher dose areas, maybe out of curiosity(?) of the work being done. This does not equate to more pay in my world.

Using dose received as a measure of coverage being provided, is not a good way to go.

Of course this is just my opinion and I could be wrong 

[MR BIG]

Wish there was something out there that was worthwhile.  What is out there is just a repeat of the past for more money per month.  Nothing concrete to offer, just empty promises.  And for those who say "Open a line of communication with them (NPUA) and read the website", many of us have and still nothing concrete, just empty promises and trust us.  Why should we trust someone who is self appointed and not voted in.  Sounds more like a company than a union.

I think things will change with experience leaving the field and non experience and those who are either lazy or don't or cant work left.
 Just the way it looks from a workers stand point.

So what you're saying is I'm going to look out for number 1 Right? How selfish and devicsive (spelling) that is. Now don't get offended. But that's been the whole problem for 30 years. We don't want to come together for a good cause. Oh yeah, it's gonna cost us $40 a month. WOW, I don't know if I can afford that? Give me a break. that boils down to 2 sodas a day! If you can't afford that for a chance to get these utilities to recognize us than you need to get into another line of business and anyone else that feels that way. Have you ever tried to "invest" your money into your future? I'm sure it was alot more than 2 sodas a day. Take a chance for once in your life. This isn't 1989!
Totally different situation now. This will work if we would just support it.

Don't get mad or judge someone that is trying to make a difference. Maybe some of us are just ticked off cause we didn't think of it first and have the guts to step out there and get the ball rolling. And NO, I am no part of the NPUA. I just think it's our best shot at getting someone to listen to us.

Food for thought

[jrad]

FINALLY !!!!!

Someone who thinks like i do! I think this NPUA is the best chance we have at finally making some money and having some security. Im sure it wont be perfect, but nothing is right! I mean at least then maybe i can make a little more hourly than the fire watches. Not that im putting down their job at all, they just dont have the responsibilty on their shoulders that i do as a tech. I'm all for this union!!   

[RAD-GHOST]

I have seen technicians covering the same high dose job with wide variances in exposure. At first glance one would think that the technician with more dose is obviously doing a better job of controlling the work than the technician who has 1/2 of the exposure of the first technician.

Upon further review you find that the technician with double the dose is in reality just hanging around the higher dose areas, maybe out of curiosity(?) of the work being done. This does not equate to more pay in my world.

Mine either, but it does equate to a lack of experience and training, "The main topics of todays Industry"!

My response addressed the varience between the sitter and the getters!  Although all task are essencial to the successful completion of the outage, some demand more responsibility then others and some add an increased recognized risk to the individual.  More responsibility and risk equate to better compensation in the real world, which doesn't happen to be our world!

Actually I would suggest compensation directly related to the LACK of DOSE!  Pull out those ALARA estimates and assign a dose goal to the area's Technician team for all projects with an accumulated estimate over 1 Rem for Health Physics, (make it a realistic goal)!  Meet it, get an added bonus!  Beat it by 10%, double the bonus!  Beat it by 20%, quadruple it!  Offer an incentive like that and some of your sitters will learn the jobs and become getters!  Then again, some facilities can keep running the same old game of sitters and getters.  The same pay while working ten feet from the coffee pot and an outage goal of 1 mr vs. suited and sweating in the loops, picking up a couple of hundred millirem, what kind of incentive is that? 

Imagine that, a program that breeds technical competance and reduced exposure!

WHAT A NOVEL CONCEPT!

Just a Rant and probably off topic, RG!

[RELLISON62]

I think maybe the idea is good,but let's face the facts.I don't think this could ever happen for a few reasons.I agree with Shovelheadred about people being individual and self centered.I got in the business. in 81. I know then work was more easy to find and times were easier to live,but all things changes,but the one that doesn't is our right to make choices.We all know even if we worked at Micky-D's or at some warehouse we would still find a way to bitch about money,the way we are treated or even the person working beside you.We could be working for min. wage and killing ourselves for it. I've tried normal working man life, I've ran my own Roofing and framing crew,worked for plumbers,bricklayers and I could go on,but in the end I come back we all know we could use higher wages,but forming a union isn't it.Henry Black hit it on the head come to work do your work with pride and respect your coworkers and you can keep work. I was raised get $ earn the $.Union I feel will keep the lazy man working and put the working one out.I guess I'm saying I've worked for a lot of comp.such as IRM,NSS,Powersystems just to name a few but Bart. has been good to me over the years they have kept me work and as for Recruiters not telling all we know that has been like that since the beginning of time. If we could all unite that would be good but this isn't the Bonny and Clyde days anymore people are to selfish

[nowhereman]

The whole debate on this centers on two issues that persist on this blog....1.the sitters vs the getters and 2. pay........but a union won't solve those.......a  legitimate recognized trade will have a legitimate recognized union with a legitimate recognized apprentice training program..period  .........the hp apprentice program I see in training is to throw some dedicated deconners in a corner of a noisy classroom(all the senior hp's are talking about back at oyster creek  we did it this way.......) with some procedure books, the NUF study guide, and then a two hour class on how to read a meter..........certainly the utilities don't use that approach when training their junior house  hp's....   oh by the way how many years does it take a junior hp to get enough hours(working outages) to get to senior hp status?

The utilities, bartlett, inpo(ahh....the golden parachute club...) and the nrc all sit by idly, happy that it's not costing money to get the warm bodies they need....I have talked to RPM's about the training program and the standard response has been....what day did you get your badge?  Oh I came in on monday and I got my badge on wednesday afternoon. and the rpm says see our training program works it should only take 2.8 days from when you walk on site till you have your badge......

Bartlett has shown some initiative in overcoming staffing issues.......I believe their hp development program is more centered on which country can they go to next....

so don't fret...the status quo will remain and the union will never have a chance...

[ramdog_1]

No whereMan
you hit it right on the chops. You have the F.O.B.s who have the training for book smarts and have to learn to be an hp on the go. But that  club is for the navey guys who served there time. but also there are those who have worked there way up I recall having a decon type person more than happy to set A/S and get smears and learn how to count them.  But those days seem to be gone.
get 150 techs togather and if you are paying for a home, kids in school and  bills to pay. Well most people will go to work. If we are to work in a union a person is better to go house. That is my feelings. But if this can be put togather it would be good for all.
What the heck all it takes is one person to get it going.
good luck

[johnnieslingshot]

I was a chief steward for 6 years when I worked at Charleston Naval Shipyard and I must say that the union(IAM&AW) got along well with management.  There were a few problems from time to time but we were able to work everything out.  I electricians union there though had a lot of problems.  It seemed as though they were unwilling to be flexible in any way.  I for one would love to be part of a union again but only if I knew that it would not turn out to be a "good ol' boys club" and that it would truely work for getting us the wages and benefits we deserve.  Hard nose union activity would be a real turn-off.

[nowhereman]

If the "union" could concentrate on a legitimate cornerstone of a training  program for apprentices and institute a wage progression scale based on hours worked, you may have some traction for getting a union,

however, the only thing I have seen from NPUA's web site is about wages/per diem, so the discourse will remain the same.........1. the sitters vs. the getters  2.we should get a raise, because 87% of the hp's passed the meter reading test....

I would like to see a union for hp's,..... but if the only concern from the union is a wage scale, I am not going to vote for half of a union....

[Chimera]

If the "union" could concentrate on a legitimate cornerstone of a training  program for apprentices and institute a wage progression scale based on hours worked, you may have some traction for getting a union,

Superficially, that sounds good.  However, how would you recommend a union for contractor HP/RP/RCT Techs handle the training issue?  With well over 100 possible sites (commercial nuke, DOE, research, medical, remediation, etc.), how would you construct a training program for the Juniors/Deconners and what exam process would you recommend to ascertain if they have acquired enough knowledge to be considered for Senior status?  Who would be the accreditation facility?  Would the NRRPT accept the classes towards their maintenance program as legitimate training?  Who pays for the training - the Tech, the contract company, the client?

In all fairness, I learned most everything I know through self-study and mentoring by some very patient Seniors when I first started on the road back in 1974.  I've managed to learn enough to pass the NRRPT and to no longer sweat the NUF when it comes up.  This brings up another issue: Should the Techs who do OJT and mentoring get special credit relative to their union status along with counting their time and dose?

Michael

[nowhereman]

well in the past, self study and being dedicated and mentoring worked.........over the last 5 years, I could count on one hand the number of viable juniors willing to learn....

the union would be the voice of the technicians.......and I believe that pushing a training program is a  better alternative that hp's would like to see, instead of going to different countries to recruit workers.....the union could sit there and run the admin part  and document a training program just like bartlett does...

The utilities have the most at stake regarding staffing of hp's.......they have the accredited training program, they have access to nantel/pads......would a 40 hr class for juniors seem unreasonable?

right now the system is broken down, virtually every outage staffed is 10 to 15 people short(unless they are paying a $8/hr bonus), it is only a matter of time before management at the utilities says "hey the outage went well with 15 people short, lets staff accordingly next time....."

[Chimera]

the union would be the voice of the technicians.......and I believe that pushing a training program is a  better alternative that hp's would like to see, instead of going to different countries to recruit workers.....the union could sit there and run the admin part  and document a training program just like bartlett does...

Once again, superficially this looks reasonable.  However, the utilities' training cycles cover anywhere from one to three years (depending on the utility and what is included in the scope of their training).  DOE requires retraining on the Core materials every two years.

The utilities would be of no help when it comes to other sites, i.e., research, laboratories, D&D, DOE, medical, irradiation facilities, etc.  Where do they get their training?  What happens to the NANTEL classes after all these diverse facilities have their input for their own specialized needs?  Where do we find all the instructors and CBT developers needed to accomplish this monumental undertaking?  Do you think the utilities would be interested in absorbing the cost of an additional 40-hour class for contractors that will only be there once every 18 months - assuming they all return to the same utility every outage?

I must interject that I'm not disagreeing with you.  I think a formalized training system is essential to developing new Seniors.  However, I don't think the union is the vehicle to accomplish this goal.  I'm also not sure what would be an acceptable vehicle to cover the diverse range of needs within our profession.  In our contractor world, the onus has always resided with the individual to learn.  Some Seniors are good at helping the Juniors and Deconners learn, but there needs to be a better way to get more people involved as the influx of new people increases.

The union would be an excellent for maintaining a data base that includes training and other professional qualifications.  At the utilities, the unions have nothing to do with the actual training or maintaining a data base of qualifications.  They only track time-in-grade that automatically advances the technician to the next pay grade.  If you add in performance and tracking of training to the union's functions, the utilities (as well as other facilities) might well object and they would demand an input into the curriculum.