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Offline Marlin

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Re: More Cheating on Exams
« Reply #25 on: Feb 05, 2014, 09:33 »
This is disturbing.

"Richardson said the investigation has just begun and it’s too soon to tell how many were involved, but he believes that the number will be less than 160 – or 1 percent of the 16,000 personnel in the Navy nuclear propulsion program. Richardson did not say how he arrived at that number."

http://www.stripes.com/news/navy/sailors-allegedly-cheated-on-nuclear-reactor-tests-1.265597

Offline mars88

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Re: More Cheating on Exams
« Reply #26 on: Feb 05, 2014, 10:42 »
Because he just made up the number--grossly overstating it so that when he later reports only 37 were cheating, the program will look that much better.

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: More Cheating on Exams
« Reply #27 on: Feb 05, 2014, 11:03 »
Should make for lots of brand-new deconners for Fall outage season!  :P

HalfHazzard

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Re: More Cheating on Exams
« Reply #28 on: Feb 05, 2014, 02:18 »
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/navy-probing-alleged-cheating-nuke-reactor-work-22362057

Quote
Adm. John Richardson, director of the Navy's nuclear propulsion program, said an undisclosed number of senior sailors are alleged to have provided test information to their peers. He was not more specific, but one official said the information was shared from the sailors' home computers, which could be a violation of security rules because information about nuclear reactors operations is classified.

That's a big no no.

Offline mars88

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Re: More Cheating on Exams
« Reply #29 on: Feb 05, 2014, 03:53 »
^ Probably not as bad as the cheating itself, since it's 'CONFIDENTIAL' at best.

Offline spekkio

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Re: More Cheating on Exams
« Reply #30 on: Feb 05, 2014, 04:03 »
^ Probably not as bad as the cheating itself, since it's 'CONFIDENTIAL' at best.
Unauthorized disclosure of classified information, even 'just confidential,' is a federal offense punishable with a 5-figure (6-figure?) fine and years in prison. That's on top of the UCMJ offenses and other punitive/administrative action that the military will take.

Won't be the first time someone mishandled Confidential material and those cases weren't dealt with quite so severely, probably because it was when someone's soon-to-be ex-wife told the CO that he brought his training notebook home and thus he didn't distribute the material. But in the wake of Edward Snowden I wouldn't be surprised if they started pursuing the full extent of what they can do to you for putting classified material on your PC.

Cheating on a training exam is ethically wrong, perhaps an article 133 or 92 offense that will be punished at NJP, but you can't end up in prison for it.
« Last Edit: Feb 05, 2014, 04:07 by spekkio »

Offline a|F

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Re: More Cheating on Exams
« Reply #31 on: Feb 05, 2014, 05:25 »
These stories will continue to come to light until the navy commits to some real exam security.  Unfortunately, it is now a systemic cultural issue and this is not limited to prototypes.  They could learn something from the commercial industry.

Offline GLW

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Re: More Cheating on Exams
« Reply #32 on: Feb 05, 2014, 05:59 »
If you missed my point, neither of those are reactors that allowed to travel the entire world freely with their own regulatory agency; one isn't even a reactor facility. Rickover built this program so well that he was called before congress to tell them the reason his program had operated so long without incident. The navy has never stopped building reactors and no one questions our safety,....


oopsie,....

ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL

« Last Edit: Feb 05, 2014, 06:03 by GLW »

been there, dun that,... the doormat to hell does not read "welcome", the doormat to hell reads "it's just business"

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: More Cheating on Exams
« Reply #33 on: Feb 05, 2014, 06:43 »
^ Probably not as bad as the cheating itself, since it's 'CONFIDENTIAL' at best.

Declining standards....check!   >:(

Offline SpaceJustice

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Re: More Cheating on Exams
« Reply #34 on: Feb 05, 2014, 06:53 »
I have a couple friends who are staff there right now, it sounds like a very cheery time to be a prototype instructor in SC.

ridgerunner61

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Re: More Cheating on Exams
« Reply #35 on: Feb 06, 2014, 07:54 »
The Navy always responds to these situations in the same way. It is a personal accountability problem not a systematic failure. This will result in a massacare of Staff

Fermi2

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Re: More Cheating on Exams
« Reply #36 on: Feb 06, 2014, 09:49 »
30 People and maybe more IS a systematic failure.... It is a personal accountability item above all else but that many people indicates a system OR a system administration issue.

I know a guy who is a retired LDO, knows a guy in NR. NR says it ain't gonna be pretty!

Any bets on how many O-6 and O-5 hears will roll?

Offline ChiefRocscooter

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Re: More Cheating on Exams
« Reply #37 on: Feb 06, 2014, 05:04 »
Funny we have been "hearing" for years that the fine filter was becoming first a sieve and than a pump, well I guess the head loss was to high! (pun intended)  So what do we do we do when head loss is to high for the running pump?  That's right we start a second pump up and get our flow rate back to where it needs to be problem is you still have a head loss issues! (again pun intended)

The best part is that the heads "rolling" will be rolled by the guys above who set this all in motion by demanding a system that has a through put of almost 100% when over the long history it is clear that the system can not function anywhere near that with the people and processes involved.  Without trying to slam one generation vs. the next lets just say that in todays world (say last 10 years) going (read getting into and money for) to college has become easy to do and what "most" kids do after high school because well that's what you do after HS now.  Now 30 to 40 years ago college was not what "everyone" did so there were far many more "gee I wish I could go to college" kids that the nuke program could sweep up and offer a chance at an education (read $, GI bill, ect...).

The quantity of quality is not there any more, sure there are lots of really smart people in the program just not as many as there used to be and with the growing negatives of the military you can bet it will get worse. 

Think it is bad now with guy bailing and very few staying for a career, wait till this new retirement plan stuff (401/IRA type) kicks into full gear.  How many E6s/E7s will  be at 10-12 years looking at "well I can go back to sea and all the fun that entails" or "Gee I got my NEC, my training, and a good start on my retirement... So I guess I will bail and make twice as much on the outside as I will at sea and get to come home to the family every day!".

Anyone remember "tailhook"?  That changed the flight community, in some ways good and some bad, wonder how much damage/change this will do?
Being adept at being adaptable I look forward to every new challenge!

Offline spekkio

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Re: More Cheating on Exams
« Reply #38 on: Feb 06, 2014, 09:00 »
The Navy condones practices that would get students today kicked out of high school, let alone college. These guys are learning these practices while in the Navy, from Chiefs and mid grade officers in an older generation you look so highly upon.

Tell me, what's the difference between an instructor stamping his foot 3 times when he verbatim says a question and answer on an exam vs. a student looking at the piece of paper himself? Because if the concern is having prior knowledge of the questions and answers, the outcome is the same in both cases.  What's the difference between looking at the answer key and a proctor looking at the answer key to push a student to the right answer to a (usually poorly worded) question? It's been a while, but anytime I took state/national standardized tests in school, you weren't allowed to ask questions about questions. Nada. And the proctors didn't have the key next to them.

The Navy isn't an academic institution, and NPTU is a training command and not an educational institution, but you can't expect a 19 year old with little life experience to be able to distinguish when it is or isn't okay to have the 'gouge' on an exam. By the time they have been in for 5, 6, 10 years they've been indoctrinated into this culture. The line "It's always been like that..." comes to mind.

Also, if you think that E-7 to E-9 retirement is worth the opportunity cost of staying in the Navy vice getting out at 22-24 years old and moving onto greener pastures, and that's the primary thing on which you're basing the decision to stay in the Navy, I've got a bridge to sell you. That's not a knock against being a career nuke, but a knock on people who think that it's fiscally better than other options.
« Last Edit: Feb 06, 2014, 09:14 by spekkio »

Offline Brittlefracture

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Re: More Cheating on Exams
« Reply #39 on: Aug 20, 2014, 09:09 »

SCMasterchef

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Re: More Cheating on Exams
« Reply #40 on: Aug 21, 2014, 12:12 »
Not being a prodigy of the navy nuclear tower of excellence myself, this entire discussion highly concerns me.  These are the same people, student or instructor, who are now transitioning from the ivory tower of navy nuclear to what I consider the most professional business of commercial nuclear power.  These are the same folks who are entering our Control Rooms and operating equipment outside our Control Rooms that we have looked up too for many years in the commercial nuclear business has having a non-waving level of honesty and integrity.  What is wrong with this picture?  At least there are very few instances over the long history of our commercial business where cheating was identified.  Those instances were immediately corrected and corrective actions taken to ensure that they do not occur again.  Maybe its time relook and rethink that old phylosphy of we look after our kind.

GoWest

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Re: More Cheating on Exams
« Reply #41 on: Aug 28, 2014, 11:44 »
I figured I would make a reply since I have a background in both the commercial and Navy programs.

The fact that there are large cheating rings does not surprise me in the least. This occurred almost blatantly on the submarine that I served on. Qualification exams would be given to people to take in their racks and the monthly exams would have an answer sheet passed around. I refused to cheat several times and failed the test and got counseled. The problem is that it is both systemic and administrative. The existence of cheating has gone on for a long time, but the SAT process (with cheating) makes each exam harder and harder, which positively reinforces cheating. Additionally, the fact that the Navy uses essay-form answers instead of multiple choice answers ensures that test writers start getting nit-picky. In order to still meet the SAT criteria (which I am no expert on), they write the answers in bits of keyword phrases that you need to answer. Forget a phrase, you lose 0.5 points. A more important phrase, 1.0 points, and so on. Often these are complete bulls@#t. If you had to answer a physics problem with a numerical solution, you might lose points if you didn't explain (even though the question didn't explicitly ask) why it was relevant and what it meant. It is completely insane. I am convinced that everybody in the chain of command is aware of this, including the EDMC (99%), Engineer (90%), and Captain (75%). They all review the tests and look at the bullshit questions and answer keys. They know what is going on. They are simply playing a game to meet their SAT requirements so that no major discrepancies are found on inspection.

As far as the operations side of the nuclear industry (where I've worked), the process was the complete opposite. The exams were given with proctors, the questions were multiple choice (open book), and you had to study your continuing training material to pass it (or in the case of initial training, closed book). I think the independence of the training department is the reason for the greater integrity. You can't cheat, you'll be caught. I should also note that my initial Navy training was administered similarly to how the commercial training programs worked. It surprises me that these articles talk about cheating in the initial training programs in the Navy since the real cheating occurs when you are on the ship.

The solution for the Navy has an easy and a hard part. The easy part is to use proctors. Every test must be proctored. The hard part is composed of two parts. First, the current exam banks are probably shit, so some independent review to make them reasonable is needed. The second part is that training and operations can't be separated as easily. Perhaps including one nuclear officer and chief to focus simply on training would help. Personally, I would include civilian SROs or SRO-certs who have worked in training in that team.

TL;DR: the civilian world (as far as I can tell) is fine, but the Navy is f@#$%d.

Edit: I should also note that the logical question you might ask of my post would be "how do you get enough failures for the SAT process to work when everybody is cheating?" The answer is that the tests are so long that there is a limited time to write your answer and read the passed around answer sheet (which doesn't occur on every test based on the 'pseudo-proctor'. The smarter sailors will still score better because they have less to correct.) I'm guessing that my post sounds insane, but I'm pretty sure if some other submariners spoke up, you would see that it isn't. But to be fair, it has been over a decade since I was in so things might be different today.

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« Last Edit: Aug 28, 2014, 11:56 by Marlin »

SCMasterchef

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Re: More Cheating on Exams
« Reply #42 on: Aug 28, 2014, 01:44 »
So I guess that if you are navy or navy legacy then cheating appears to be OK?  I guess in today society that we should allow our children the same leniency in their school curriculums that way if they decide to go into the Navy then they will already have the SKILL AND KNOWLEDGE necessary to succeed and then be readily adapted to coming into the commercial industry and bring their SAT process history with them.  I have been a commercial nuclear trainer for over 28 years and was one of the first in commercial nuclear power arena, other than operations, to have to go through a SAT based continuing training program, TMI post accident, to keep my job and did we have to cheat to do this:  NO.  So what is wrong with this picture?

GoWest

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Re: More Cheating on Exams
« Reply #43 on: Aug 28, 2014, 03:00 »
The Navy cheating issue is a huge problem. And the skills and knowledge of commercial operators greatly exceeds that of Navy Nukes for obvious reasons. All that I can say is that there probably is some 'contamination'. Most trainers that I saw were former nukes and probably about half the operators in the recent classes were. If you interact with former Navy trainers, all that I can say is that I recommend that you beat the Navy out of them. The ones that I classed with in ILT I think turned out okay, but they had a really strong training department to back them up.

Offline hamsamich

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Re: More Cheating on Exams
« Reply #44 on: Aug 28, 2014, 07:00 »
I think an overlooked reason that cheating goes on in the Navy is how overworked those guys are.  I saw it first hand in the late 80s early 90s and if it is still anything like that people are operating on little sleep without much time off often.  I'm not condoning it or saying it is right, but the reality of why is usually something built into the system.  These people will get it done and nobody cares how many hours they work since you don't get OT in the Navy.  How they get it done is the problem.  The people paying the bills really don't give a crap about cheating until it rears its ugly head into the press.  Why?  Because an entire training dept operating on its own and proper training for operators (ie taking people out of a rotation) would cost a bundle and would adversely affect the insane operational tempo of many nuclear vessels' nuclear departments.  This is what happens when you say "git er dun" and really mean it.

GoWest

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Re: More Cheating on Exams
« Reply #45 on: Aug 28, 2014, 08:29 »
Indeed. When I served, on duty days our Engineer was one of the more decent types who mandated that we have at least 4 hours of sleep. I don't want to sound like I'm bragging (because I'm not), but I have done two reactor startups and a reactor shutdown (from the RO chair) within 28 hours, as well as standing a 6 hour watch outside of that (I think I stood 14 hours or so of watch that day). Yes, two plus one. The Navy is f@#$%@g stupid and I hate them for their negligence.


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« Last Edit: Aug 28, 2014, 11:50 by Marlin »

Offline spekkio

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Re: More Cheating on Exams
« Reply #46 on: Aug 29, 2014, 01:28 »
I think an overlooked reason that cheating goes on in the Navy is how overworked those guys are.  I saw it first hand in the late 80s early 90s and if it is still anything like that people are operating on little sleep without much time off often.  I'm not condoning it or saying it is right, but the reality of why is usually something built into the system.  These people will get it done and nobody cares how many hours they work since you don't get OT in the Navy.  How they get it done is the problem.  The people paying the bills really don't give a crap about cheating until it rears its ugly head into the press.  Why?  Because an entire training dept operating on its own and proper training for operators (ie taking people out of a rotation) would cost a bundle and would adversely affect the insane operational tempo of many nuclear vessels' nuclear departments.  This is what happens when you say "git er dun" and really mean it.
This. Unless you've been in the Navy, you won't understand the mentality that training is a burden to meet checks in the box when there are more important things at hand keeping the department at work 16 hours a day in port. Not saying it's entirely justified, but when the guys have spent 16, sometimes 20 hour days doing a compacted maintenance period, going through excessive administrative requirements like making sure that everything is brief/walkthrough/certified, there really isn't much time to study for the monthly CTE that includes operational questions about shifting propulsion to the EPM or conducting a single loop recovery. That stuff just ain't important at the moment, but it's in the EDM/EDOM so it SHALL be done. Well, it 'gets done', and then everyone moves onto the important maintenance tasks at hand.

Underway there's time for due diligence in training, but inport is far too busy and with recent submarine/carrier OPTEMPOs, 'they' keep shortening maintenance periods to get the boat back out on deployment, which means longer days for nukes.

You take these guys after they've been in the fleet, and even though prototype allows the staff time for training they've already been indoctrinated toward treating it as something that just 'gets done' rather than something to take seriously. While some of that falls on the Eng/EDMC leadership, some of that also falls on a rigid requirement to do X amount of training no matter what, and some of that falls on ORSE boards that ding training programs for having too few failures on CTEs (I have personally had the 'too few failures' hit IRT the check chemistry program. Apparently your ELTs who have all been on board over 18 months are not expected to know how to do their jobs. Who knew?). So once the tests get ridiculously difficult or the results get doctored to produce the appropriate distribution of grades, the entire program has lost all integrity. Thankfully, neither of those happened on my boat, but if anonymous postings on The Stupid Shall be Punished blog were any indication, it wasn't an entirely abnormal practice.
« Last Edit: Aug 29, 2014, 01:32 by spekkio »

SCMasterchef

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Re: More Cheating on Exams
« Reply #47 on: Aug 29, 2014, 07:33 »
Cheating is cheating, the excuses abound, still excuses.  This level of thought is why this country is in the state that it is in, politically.  The Navy and its Management, all the way to the top, should be ashamed at what has happened.  No excuses, no absolution, no forgiveness, it is wrong.  Don't bring your mentality to our commercial nuclear business.  Honesty and integrity is our expectation in commercial nuclear power.  I have been doing this too long to continue to see the poor quality being demonstrated and it is gradually working it way into the management philosphy of the commercial business.  It is time to stop, reinstate honesty and integrity and allow our business to grow and be what it was intended to be, Safe, Secure, and Caring, not only about ourselves but the customers we provide our expertise too.

Offline GLW

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Re: More Cheating on Exams
« Reply #48 on: Aug 29, 2014, 08:07 »
This. Unless you've been in the Navy,.................., it wasn't an entirely abnormal practice.


Strong post, I EAOS'd in '88, I perceive your post is the end result of Big Navy taking over Rickover's "special people" and their "special paradigm",...

I say that because what the nukes are going through already existed in the non-nuke fleet pretty much forever,...

It's just nobody really cares all that much when the training records of a bunch of oil fired 1200# steam boys are less than pristine,...

Put the word "nuclear" in front of anything,....and magically it's a catastrophe,....

Cheating is cheating, the excuses abound, still excuses........I have been doing this too long to continue to see the poor quality being demonstrated and it is gradually working it way into the management philosphy of the commercial business.  It is time to stop, reinstate honesty and integrity and allow our business to grow and be what it was intended to be, Safe, Secure, and Caring, not only about ourselves but the customers we provide our expertise too.

It's a Navy problem,...

The Navy problem cannot "work it's way" into the commercial world unless the commercial world allows it,...

That would be a commercial problem,...

The commercial nukes are obligated to screen out those who should not be there regardless of origin, be it USN, RPI or McD,...

Plus, your/our business is not growing, commercial nukes are not being replaced as fast or at a quicker rate than they are going away,...

If you interpret growing as meaning it takes 600+ employees to operate a site and put power on the grid when 30 years ago it required 250 employees to operate that same site and put power on the grid you would be correct on that account,...

Unfortunately, the corporate bean counters often see 350 people too many,...

ergo, fewer and fewer commercial nukes,...

I'm just saying,... :-\
« Last Edit: Aug 29, 2014, 02:20 by GLW »

been there, dun that,... the doormat to hell does not read "welcome", the doormat to hell reads "it's just business"

mjd

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Re: More Cheating on Exams
« Reply #49 on: Aug 29, 2014, 09:23 »

If you interpret growing as meaning it takes 600+ employees to operate a site and put power on the grid when 30 years ago it required 250 employees to operate that same site and put power on the grid you would be correct on that account,...

Unfortunately, the corporate bean counters often see 350 people too many,...

ergo, fewer and fewer commercial nukes,...

I'm just saying,... :-\
When the plants ran with 250 staff, they didn't run. Capacity factors averaged 60%. The problem is the pendulum has swung too far in the wrong direction, and you can blame INPO. Most of the extra 350 staff today do nothing but INPO required paperwork.

 


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