Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake

[MacGyver]

"But what the public needs to make clear is that" ... 15 yard penalty! 

I wish these guys would stop comparing it to Chernobyl - trying to make their situation seem better than it really is.  The ONLY thing that's positive is the apparent lack of deaths caused or immediate deaths anyways.  I say apparent cause many workers didn't have proper dosimetry and therefore who knows their accumulated dose?  Also, the cleanup for this situation is more complex and I doubt anyone who's followed the situation closely thinks their total release will be less than Chernobyl.  Amazingly enough, their biggest helper has been the ocean... dilution is the solution!

I digress.  Here's an amazing set of pictures of #3 and #4 reactor buildings for you all.
http://www.houseoffoust.com/fukushima/fukushima.html


**Edit:  removed "half a brain" and replaced with "who's followed the situation closely".  That was inappropriate and unnecessary.

Too late.

Japan ups nuke crisis severity to match Chernobyl

and this

Japan Raises Nuclear Crisis to Same Level as Chernobyl

and this

Slight amounts of strontium found near crippled Japan nuclear

[playswithairplanes]

Yep, I knew when I heard about this on the radio this morning that the idiots in the press would make this situation to be now the SAME as Chernobyl, both in magnitude and impact. Now there will be even more stupid statements, and the press will create more hysteria (all in the name of selling more ad space and making more money, no doubt).

[Cherenkov]

IMO, this "level" system for nuclear accidents is as useless as the Homeland Security threat levels. It provides no real value except to confuse and scare the general public.

So it is now a level 7... so what? It is a meaningless label as the actions to combat and consquences of the accident don't change.

-C

[hamsamich]

The Japanese situation is bad, but not even close to chernobyl.  people were kicking pieces of the reactor core back into the reactor building for god sakes at chernobyl.  assign whatever level you want to it but really nasty things happened to alot of people at chernobyl because of the immediate release of a large amount of radiation right after the reactor was critical with no containment building.  this didn't happen in japan and can't because the japanese reactors didn't explode, they have containment, and they slowed the release of the radiation by cooling the fuel for as long as they could.  plus people were evacuated in Japan and TEPCO has been better than USSR at telling people to get away.  Even though TEPCO could have shared more info, they did way better than the USSR did.

[playswithairplanes]

Well, at least one media organization is not hyperventilating about it. The Christian Science Monitor.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/0412/How-can-Fukushima-crisis-be-rated-as-severe-as-Chernobyl

[namlive]

I would say the Sr-90 was there from the initial release. The article didn't say where or when the samples were taken and at what levels the Sr-90 is at. The severity of the accident was classified separately for each unit. When they combined the curie content of the releases of units 1,2, and 3 (each given a 5 rating previously) they totaled a 7. Perhaps this was done to trigger certain relief and aid available. Unit 4 still has a separte classification of 3. Depending on the source, I have seen the release been stated as 10%, 40% and >100% of Chernobyl. Certainly with fuel from 3 reactors and over a 1,000 spent rods in a fuel pool, the potential release is greater than Chernobyl.

In comparing accidents, it is like comparing apples and oranges. Yes people died at Chernobyl, but how much of the countryside and nation's econmy did it effect? The Soviet military came in, shot all the pets and herded people into buses. Stay away. Area isolated.

In Japan they have contaminated part of their "bread basket." Farm lands can not be used. Factories in the US have been shut down. Fishing waters can not be used. Massive amounts of radioactivity is being dumped into the ocean. 400,000 gallons of waste water is generated per day and they don't have anywhere to put it all. The units are in continuous release. They are still trying to get the accident under control after a month. Japan was "fortunate" because people left due to the tsunami.

Nuclear power: We are safe for all the accidents we plan for.

[somewhat_nuke]

Thanks Guys and Gals for keeping some form of sanity to this discussion.  I've been following the problems in Japan since the start and here is the only place I've found reasonable discussion of the severity of whats happening in Japan.  Keep up the good work and keep the trolls in their dark uneducated holes.

Thanks again,

[Cycoticpenguin]

Thanks Guys and Gals for keeping some form of sanity to this discussion.  I've been following the problems in Japan since the start and here is the only place I've found reasonable discussion of the severity of whats happening in Japan.  Keep up the good work and keep the trolls in their dark uneducated holes.

Thanks again,

welcome!

[HAIRDUDE]

Plutone ... You are a boob. I don't care to waste more time or words on you than that.

Floyd "Hairdude" Flanigan

[Nuclear NASCAR]

We are no longer seeing I-131 in our air samples here in Northern CA.

The problem with all of this is that we have the ability to look for atoms (E -14). Because the MDA is so freaking low, we can't just say <MDA. Once you make results available to the public that don't say <MDA, they don't understand anything else...they just get freaked out that we can see anything at all.

I went on a small campaign to enlighten non-nuke folks about the misinformation the media was spreading. It was received very well by many, but I was also called a "Liar for the industry" many times by others. It is shamefull how the media has handled all of this.

Shamelessly stolen from another thread discussing I131 from Japan.  I understand being apprehensive & even scared of something we haven't ever experienced before.  There is no denying that this is major.  There is also no denying that we can & will learn from it. 

You've come to a great place to get TRUE answers to your questions & concerns.  What you do with that truth and how it gets retold is what I look forward to hearing in the future.  Please let us know when it does, OK?

[chimmike]

Okay. Can we get back on topic here?

I'm one of those noobs who genuinely want to learn more about what's going on at Daiichi. I'm not here to argue for or against nuclear power. Honestly, I'm for it, but I know enough to know I don't know anything in terms of forming a logical argument for or against it.

Gracias!

[Marlin]

Okay. Can we get back on topic here?

I'm one of those noobs who genuinely want to learn more about what's going on at Daiichi. I'm not here to argue for or against nuclear power. Honestly, I'm for it, but I know enough to know I don't know anything in terms of forming a logical argument for or against it.

Gracias!

Not a lot new there but here is an article on comparison of Fukishima to Chernobyl:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/12/us-japan-fukushima-idUSTRE73B1RH20110412

I noted that the lead in (Reuters) - "Japan on Tuesday raised the severity level of its nuclear crisis to put it on par with the 1986 Chernobyl accident, the world's worst nuclear power disaster." does not match the body of the text "Fukushima has its own unique risks, but comparing it to Chernobyl is going too far. Fukushima is unlikely to have the kind of impact on the health of people in neighboring countries, the way Chernobyl did," said nuclear specialist Kenji Sumita at Osaka University.". This seems to be an ongoing media slant on almost all news outlets to sell the story.

[Marlin]

I would like a moderator to remove all posts not directly related to "Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake", and kindly put them in their own topic.

Just finished you can open them up. 

New topic is:  Pointed questions for nuclear enthusiasts and careerists

[roadhp]

Just read about the robot results from units 1 and 3.  4.9 R/hr and 5.7 R/hr.  Not surprising, considering the known fuel damage, but the results don't say where, if it is an average or hot spot.  Anyone have anything else on this?

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/04/17/japanese-government-disaster-plan/?test=latestnews

[plutone]

By the way you are still a psuedo intellectual troll your post here is just more proof of that.

Name calling is still exceeding serious answers 10 to 1.

1) Will Fukushima #5 and 6 ever operate again?

2) Ballpark estimates of total cost of Fukushima, including loss of investment, remediation, evacuation, interuption of business claims, real estate and food production losses?

3) Do similar reactors in US have backup power to their SFPs? (I get conflicting opinions on this).

[ski2313]

I would have to believe that the spent fuel pools are supplied by the safety-related busses.  Can someone verify this for me?
That would be the busses that were being supplied by the diesel generators at Fukushima until the tsunami hit and knocked them offline.  

In my plant, the service water system provides cooling to the spent fuel pool heat exchangers.. the SW pumps and spent fuel pool pumps are safeguards equipment, and on protected busses, powered by the diesels like you said. edit: However, i believe the SFP pumps are initially "stripped" off the safeguards busses, as it typically takes a number of days before SFP heat is a pressing issue. That gives the Ops team time to restore offsite power, or re-fuel the diesel tanks, etc.. Of course, having an entire core offloaded into your SFP for refueling or inspection changes that a little (like in one of the Fukushima units).

I wonder if the tsunami physically took out both trains of the diesel generators themselves at fukushima (if they even have separate trains??), or if the wave simply took out the fuel tanks, effectively disabling both? (or all of the above?).. In any case, losing emergency backup power is bad.. No SI, no aux feed (pwr of course), no spent fuel cooling, no RHR for RCS cooling... Everything was going well after the earthquake. The other plant (Daichi?), which was only a few miles from the epicenter (much closer than the fukushima plants) shut itself down just fine.. It was definitely the wave that did fukushima in. It will be interesting to see what new system enhancements/recommendations/requirements come out of this event for U.S. plants.

[Radwasted]

From what I have gathered is TEPCO is using military grade robots from iRobot in Bedford MA and robots from Mitsui Engineering from Japan. The Mitsui robot can be remote operated from as far as a kilometer away with a 3D thermographic camera. The main purpose of iRobots err robot is explosive ordinance disposal. Only one iRobot from Ma is fitted with the capabilties of detecting radiation.

RW

[Nuclear Renaissance]

Quote from: plutone on Yesterday at 21:47

1) Will Fukushima #5 and 6 ever operate again?

2) Ballpark estimates of total cost of Fukushima, including loss of investment, remediation, evacuation, interuption of business claims, real estate and food production losses?

3) Do similar reactors in US have backup power to their SFPs? (I get conflicting opinions on this).



1. If the future dose rates from 1-4 don't prevent it, and the tsunami replacement costs don't approach the cost of constructing new generation, then I would say yes, as they need the power. The geography of 5 & 6 has proven that it does not suffer the same kind of common mode failure with waves as 1-4.

2. US financial firms have estimated this based on the current roadmap TEPCO has laid out ($24 billion) and a worst-case ($130 billion)

3. Yes spent fuel pool cooling has power availability from emergency electrical, which has redundant sources. Unfortunately all the redundancy went away with the the 45 ft wave and sustained flood. Emergency diesel generators are in Class 1E seismic/flood qualified structures, and so are a few days supply for fuel for each and all their respective cooling water pumps. But, I suspect the impact of the wave knocked out the cooling pump structure, which would've tripped the emergency diesel generators very shortly thereafter. Saturation of all the electrical cable runs and components by the sustained flooding probably then put them in this situation of slowly restoring or replacing all the wetted equipment.

[namlive]

I did see a picture on line of a robot going into what wass described as the reactor building.  It was through a hinged door.  Those dose rates are well within human working levels if you have a 25 REM/ yr limit.

[bismuth-210]

these photos -->  http://cryptome.org/eyeball/daiichi-npp10/daiichi-photos10.htm

[Radwasted]

Areva and Veolia Water to decontaminate water at Fukushima Nuclear station.

http://nuclearstreet.com/nuclear_power_industry_news/b/nuclear_power_news/archive/2011/04/20/areva-and-veolia-water-to-decontaminate-water-at-fukushima-nuclear-station-042003.aspx

[Marlin]

Here are a couple of links about robots being used at Fukishima:

From a Japanese news outlet (includes video of robot at work)

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/video/

Robotic Aerial Vehicle Captures Footage of Fukushima Reactors

http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/industrial-robots/robotic-aerial-vehicle-at-fukushima-reactors

[Frankie Love]

Robotic Aerial Vehicle Captures Footage of Fukushima Reactors

Must see pictures! Wow, talk about bad timing. Earthquake and tsunami hits during refueling outage. 

[namlive]

Here are a couple of links about robots being used at Fukishima:

From a Japanese news outlet (includes vidoe of robot at work)
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/video/
Robotic Aerial Vehicle Captures Footage of Fukushima Reactors
http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/industrial-robots/robotic-aerial-vehicle-at-fukushima-reactors

Cool photos. I wish I had this Karma thing figured out, I would toss some your way. Even after an earthquake and melting the bejesus out of the core, the reactor building still looks cleaner than PB and the dose rates are less than OYC.  Time to crank that baby up.

[Marlin]

Cool photos. I wish I had this Karma thing figured out, I would toss some your way. Even after an earthquake and melting the bejesus out of the core, the reactor building still looks cleaner than PB and the dose rates are less than OYC.  Time to crank that baby up.

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[Radwasted]

Summary of reactor status.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/53554592/Table-Summary-of-Reactor-Unit-Status-at-21-April-0700-UTC

[RealityCheck]

I have been on nukeworker for almost 10 years and have been in the nuclear industry since most of you were born....RealityCheck is not my first moniker...my position/work does not allow me to be anything but anonymous...nukeworker has allowed the moderators to delete posts based on their personal position...this forum, which was once considered useful, has became useless...and the product of myopic minds.

[MacGyver]

I have been on nukeworker for almost 10 years and have been in the nuclear industry since most of you were born....RealityCheck is not my first moniker...my position/work does not allow me to be anything but anonymous...nukeworker has allowed the moderators to delete posts based on their personal position...this forum, which was once considered useful, has became useless...and the product of myopic minds.

Yeah Yeah .. Yadda Yadda Yadda .. My goodness do you write with this many fallacies at work?  If so, I can then understand why you would want to be anonymous.

Try using less logic fallacies in the future for better results.  Thanks in advance your hin'nass.

[namlive]

 I try to be anonymous, but damn if everybody doesn't know who I am.

[Cycoticpenguin]

I have been on nukeworker for almost 10 years and have been in the nuclear industry since most of you were born....RealityCheck is not my first moniker...my position/work does not allow me to be anything but anonymous...nukeworker has allowed the moderators to delete posts based on their personal position...this forum, which was once considered useful, has became useless...and the product of myopic minds.

Why are you here then? You have done nothing  but spread discord and grief with your presence. In my response now, I am letting you win, but only because I choose to do so. If its so "useless", then 1) do something and fix it or 2) shut up/leave. Its pretty simple and everyone wins with whichever choice you decide, unless you go for the hidden option 3) ignore everyone, and continue this holier-then-though ranting which has absolutely nothing to do with topics at hand.

that said, I implore people to ignore any more ignoramus responses from you until you decide to actually fight against your proclivity to be annoying/nuisance.

My 2 cents, but I feel Im throwing out nickels and dimes instead of pennies.

Mac -> you're implying there's any logic in his statements kind sir.