USNA or NROTC?

[nukeman235]

This may be a bit different as it is coming from a commissioned slant and not enlisted.  I just learned about the nuke program summer of 2004, but am all about it. 

I am 18, senior, Eagle Scout, salutatorian, straight As, scored a 95 on the ASVAB, passed the line tests and all that.  I am doing physics as an independent study (aka I get the homework, read and essentially teach myself).  I have applied to Annapolis and am awaiting an appointment, but have also received a four-year NROTC scholarship to University of Illinois for nuclear engineering, and have almost all of room and board paid for.  Of course, my recruiter is still pushing STA-21 so he can tally three enlistees instead of one.

Essentially, I am asking if you think doing NROTC will hurt me in the long run.  I am leaning toward University of Illinois at the moment, even if I receive an offer of appointment.  My uncle is a Commander who went through NROTC, and I know that ADM Bowman went that route.  My ultimate goal is to go to MIT for grad school, and I know Bowman Scholars can do that, so I am trying to weigh the options.

I am also hoping to research fusion in the Navy, but will I be stuck on shore duty forever?  I hope to spend more time on-ship than shore, but really want to pursue fusion. 

Also, what is the general attitude toward young officers?  I don't want to be seen as a...donkey.  I am stoked about the program and would just like a word of advice from those more experienced than I.  I would also like to know, if anybody can help, how commissioned officers go through A school and prototype and all that jazz.  I hear it's pretty much just like E-3, but again, I want to hear what you all have to say.

Thanks!

PS: Do my ASVAB scores even matter in NROTC? Will my commissioning depend on them even when I have my B.S. in nuclear?  I scored 63 verbal, 69 math, 71 science, 74 gen. science, 69 arithmetic reasoning, 68 math knowledge, 69 mech comp (standard).  My lowest score was paragraph comp @ 58; interesting as I scored a 34 English ACT and 800 SAT-II.  How close were these, and will they affect me later?  Can I retest at a later date?

[Marlin]

   As many other Nukes in the pipeline I was asked to apply for and persue Annapolis. All I saw at the time was a four year bootcamp and declined. This is one decision that I have regretted. May I ask what peer group are you concerned about for opinion? The only that should count is yours and your goals. If engineering is your ultimate goal both colleges are good. If you want to lead, manage, and maybe even enter politics someday I believe that Annapolis is the clear choice.
   As far as opinion of you as a junior officer I found that the ones with a good balance of authority and responsibility faired the best.
   Best of all you will get great seats for the Army-Navy game each year.

[Roll Tide]

USNA would be better than NROTC in terms of career in the Navy. If you tour the Naval Academy, look at the plaque they have showing the current flag officers that are USNA graduates. There is no better undergraduate program in the world for US Navy advancement. It will also qualify you for graduate school down the road.

The downside is getting an appointment is tough. If you don't already have a commitment from a Congressman / Senator, you are probably too late (unless your Dad just mentioned his Medal of Honor!) In that case, NROTC would be the best. After you are in, you can go NUPOC and get more money after your first 3 semesters (I think) if you keep your average up.

ASVAB doesn't make any impact on officers. Officers don't go to "A" school, but they are expected to have "an in-rate level of knowledge" for each of the nuke ratings. That makes NPS, Prototype, and first sea duty assignment more challenging for an officer.

E-3 perspective: Do you know the difference between a Fireman Apprentice and an Ensign? A Fireman Apprentice has been in long enough to get promoted! 

Those butter bars turn silver quite soon after arrival at first boat. I would ditch the enlisted recruiter.

[taterhead]

Hmmm, NROTC or USNA?

Guess it depends on whether you want a partial or full lobotomy...

Kidding, of course.   Good Luck.  I would take the NROTC and try to enjoy my college years if I had the choice to make.  You'll have plenty of time for full time Navy later.

Taylor (MMC)

[MMCIcebergDX]

Well, I have to agree with Taylor, that I would recommend ROTC, and enjoy your college time.  As far as someone saying that Being in the Academy will be better for your career, I am not certain about that, all i know is that my last 2 Reactor Officers were both ROTC grads, and there area a lot more ROTC officers, either from the ROTC 4 year programs, NUPOC selectees, and prior enlisted STA-21 officers, then there are Academy kids.  In this day and age, with the majority of the Officer Corps being out of the ROTC program, some of the old prejudices have gone away, or even been reversed.

As far as getting into the Nuclear field, whether you go to the Acadamy, or ROTC, either way, you have to show a high level of technical copmetency, and you have to have a personal interview with NAVSEA-08 (Deputy Secretary of the Nvay - Nuclear Power) to become an officer in his reactors.  This is something that happens to ALL nuke officers, even Warrents and LDO's.  In the end, he has the final and only say if you become an officer in his navy.  (And believe me, it IS his navy).



Your ASVAB will not matter, but the higher your SAT or ACT Scores, the better, because those DO have a definite impact, and sometimes a person with a little lower GPA (Although from the Officer recruiter side, a lower GPA right now is still talking about a 3.1 college GPA) will get a boost from high SAT or ACT scores.  I know the scores you are putting here, if both Verbal and Math are 34 or 800, then you have got great scores, and as long as you perform in college, whether it is at the USNA or ROTC, you have a definite chance to become a nuclear officer.

[MMCIcebergDX]

Also as far as Grad school, you can get that whether you are a USNA grad, or an ROTC grad, either by getting sent there by the navy, or by being smart about where you take your shore tour orders, so that you take a job that will support off duty education, are near a school you would like to get a masters from, and are willing to work with Tuition assistance program.  Just remember that all ROTC units are supposed to have a NTO (Nuclear Trained Officer) so there is a nuke billet that you can try to get, and there are a lot of good schools with ROTC units, as I am sure you are well aware.

[CharlieRock]

I won't focus on the USNA/NROTC debate (except that I loved my college days whereas my USNA roommate on the carrier used to say Its a great place to be from).  The part I'd like to mention is your desire to do research.  Nuke officers are line officers - that means while you will get the opportunity for grad school, it will be as a shore-duty billet (2-3 years).  You won't get the opportunity to pursue research as a line officer.  In fact, no matter what you read about in novels, very few officers do that kind of 'high science'. There are some but most government scientists are civilians.  This isn't to say you won't get the opportunity to do fusion research in you Master's or Bachelor's program, but it will be of limited scopr and duration.  It won't be a career.  As an example, almost the entire R&D branch of the nuclear Navy (Bettis and KAPL) are civilians (most with Master's and PhD's).  There are some officers who participate in this research but they are NR engineers (officers that get commissioned to work at Naval Reactors).  So my point is - at some time you will need to make the choice either to be a line officer or to follow your desire and do research.  In all likelihood that means getting out if you've been in for 6 or more years.  So my further advice is this - go NROTC at a good nuclear engineering school (MIT, Wisconsion, Penn State, Florida, etc.).  You will have more opportunities to do undergrad research and decide if its for you.  If it is, you have a better chance of being picked up as an NR engineer (who are staff officers).  USNA produces prer-dominatly line officers (that's why it exists - make warfighters).  Needless to say, however, line officers advance further, have more prestige, etc. 

[Shonkatoys]

I was a Nuclear Biological Chemical Officer 74A  in  the Army who had a ROTC Scholarship.  If  I  had  to  do  it  over again I would pick neither.  I  would go OCS.  In my opinion I wasted 40 hours taking ROTC courses and because of my scholarship, I  had to participate in extracurricular activities. I believe it is best  to get your nuclear engineering degree without having to  put up with the BS.  I would join the Guard as a Seaman while I was in college to get extra money if money was  tight.  One weekend a month is not bad, You could go to  training for an enlisted man in the nuke field prior to going  to college,  then you would   have a  good  background. May have  to  start college six months later after training. But thats  what I  would do if I  had  a  do  over.

[MMCIcebergDX]

Well, if you are only interested in Nuke Officer, and you can afford it, and are not afraid to be in a competitive climate, the best option is to go for the NUPOC program.  It allows up to 30 months of college, where you are enlisted in the navy as an E-6, and your only military duties are to maintain a high GPA (3.3 or above), be able to pass the PRT twice a year, and be in contact with the NRD of the area you are going to school in twice a month.  You are able to be drug tested as is every other member of the service, but you are not drilling with ROTC, you are not in uniform, and you are getting full pay and benefits.  Of course the down side to this is that you have to at least be at least halfway through your second year of a 4 year program, and that means at least a year and a half of going to school on your onw dime.  Oh and by the way, you do NOT have to be at an ROTC school to be able to get in the program.  Right now I have students that I supervise that are at Montana Tech, and Eastern Washington University, and applicants at Western Washington U and Carroll College, and others.  As long as the school is accredited, and the individual has at least a year of College Calculus, and a year of Calculus based Physics, they are eligible, and the major does not matter.  Of course technical and hard science majors are preferred.  If you are interested in the Big Brain area (research) the NR Engineer program is the same deal, but you are only eligible for it if you are in your last year of school, but that may change eventually, not to mention that they only select a few of those each year (less then 10) and they need to be top shelf students (3.6+, top 10%ers, etc.)  And I do agree, if you want to be a research guy, you are most likely not going to get there through the Academy, or ROTC.  I wont say never, but your chances are not good, and you will probably have to do a significant amount of time in the line officer navy to obtain the education to try and make the jump.

[Shonkatoys]

Forgot to say that when you join the guard you get education benefits also. Can use some enlisted training for college credits also. So  like I  said  before. I would choose neither. This is from someone who chose the ROTC Scholarship. Waste of time.  There was also a program called direct commision.  No  OCS required.   Do  not  know  if  Navy  has  this  or  not.  They had this  for Army Nuclear Biological Chemical Officer. If  the Navy  has  this  then  I  would  do  Guard  and then  get  my  direct commision.  A 95 ST makes  you  better  than  = to 95 percent of  the  people who took  the test.  If  you  do  great in school I  would  figure  the navy would  be  stupid  not  to  give  you  a  direct   commision. But of  course there  is Military Intelligence.

[MMCIcebergDX]

The Navy has what we call Direct Assession of Officers, but you still have to go to OCS (for line officers) or OIS (For NR Engineers, and Nuke Power Instructors)

[MMCIcebergDX]

But to Direct Assess as an Officer, you must have a Bachelors Degree.

[nukeman235]

Also...if I do make nuke officer, am I doomed to a sub?  If I do sea duty, and by the way everyone is talking, I will, I would really like to be surface, but that may be a long shot.

Thanks!

[ex-SSN585]

Submarine service is strictly voluntary.

[taterhead]

Yep, we have plenty of officers onboard carriers.

Someone has to sleep in the staterooms and fill up the wardroom...

[s_Phoenix]

Here's some better advise go to colleadge and get a degree on you own.  Then go get a job at a comany that wont s**t on you just for the fun of it.  Make a hell of a lot more money and have a hell of a lot more fun with your life.  The navy S**KS.  You dont want to join trust me.

[Roll Tide]

Also, what is the general attitude toward young officers?  I don't want to be seen as a...donkey.  I am stoked about the program and would just like a word of advice from those more experienced than I.  I would also like to know, if anybody can help, how commissioned officers go through A school and prototype and all that jazz.  I hear it's pretty much just like E-3, but again, I want to hear what you all have to say.

Based on some of the replies you are gathering, green with envy would describe some well!

If you choose to serve your country, I will be proud of you and so will many others. The fact that you even consider it shows you are a credit to your family and community.

[wetbedknob]

I think your best bet is to go to college to get the degree and be part of the NROTC. I was enlisted and was lucky enough to get picked up for the STA-21 program they offer so I was able to see what the NROTC is like. Enjoy the college life. Having taught officers at the S8G prototype, I can tell you that there is no advantage to going through the academy when it comes to learning to stand watch in a plant. I saw that the officers that went through college seemed to adapt to the idea of being helped and asking for help from the others whereas the USNA officers seemed to be self driven and didn't like to ask for help. That was the biggest difference I could see. Both sides acheived their goals of getting qualified and going to sea. Hope that helps.

[nukeman235]

Here's some better advise go to colleadge and get a degree on you own.  Then go get a job at a comany that wont s**t on you just for the fun of it.  Make a hell of a lot more money and have a hell of a lot more fun with your life.  The navy S**KS.  You dont want to join trust me.

Yes, I do want to join.  Here's why:

1) I have no other means of paying for college.  I am a poor white boy from the middle of a corn field, and I won't even be able to afford to go to a school that has nuclear engineering without the NROTC scholarship.

2) I want to join the Navy.

3) I'm not about having fun or making money.  I want to serve and I want to lead.

Call me naive, and maybe I am, but I DO want to join.

To add...My uncle, a surface CDR, told me that surface nuke officers advance more quickly than those on subs, regardless of whether they come from NROTC or USNA, though he says USNA will help you if you're up for ADM.  Also, I am planning on doing NUPOC through NROTC, just to clarify.  Exactly how do I go about doing NUPOC with a four-year NROTC scholarship, and can I still do nuclear propulsion if I don't make the cut?  Would I be cut down to enlisted rank?

Thanks

[Shonkatoys]

One thing good about a ROTC scholarship (at least it use to be)is that you can apply for a Pell grant and the scholarship don't count against it. I used the pell grant to pay for room and food and the ROTC scholarship paid Tuition, books and 100 a month(probably more now).  But lke I  said before I would go guard and get their money and school help and forget the scholarship because I felt the 40  hours  i  got  were wasted hours when I  could have got a  direct commission  or  went OCS.   You might want to compare guard and ROTC money along with the pell grant and see what  it would be.  Make sure you count Guard weekends and Summer camp in your equation.  Going to Basic and Training you can put money away also.  Bad part you may have to wait a  year. You can get some credit such as PE  for school and others that  I  may  not  be  aware of.  check and see  what  your basic and AIT  will  get  you  for  credits.  You  may  only  be  half  a  year  behind  more  or  less  if  you  can  get  credits  for  PE  and leadership   etc.

[CharlieRock]

Just to clear two items up - NUPOC and NROTC are two different commissioning programs.  You can't actually get any NUPOC money until right after your sophmore year.  So that's 2 years of college with no help.  For many folks that's a big finanicial burden.  Also, NUPOC absolutely commits you to the nuke field.  One of the good things about being a Midshipman (USNA/NROTC) is you'll see different components in the Navy during your Middie Cruises.

[nukeman235]

I just found out today that I didn't get into Annapolis...I guess that will make the decision easier.

So about NUPOC...I realize that it's a different commissioning program.  I already have a 4-year federal scholarship (the full-tuition one).  So, what I'm wondering is, do I have to drop that to do NUPOC?  Will I still get my first two years paid for under the 4-year scholarship?  How can I ensure that I can do NUPOC under the 4-year scholarship?
I won't still get paid NUPOC money, will I?

That's essentially what I'm asking...sorry to post so much.

[Roll Tide]

I am a little reluctant to give out very detailed advice, since some details have changed in the 25 years since I looked into this stuff. With that said, here is my current understanding: Get into your NROTC program, and keep your GPA high and after your Sophomore year you are eligible for NUPOC (which is in addition to NROTC!)

[CharlieRock]

I am fairly (> 99%) certain you can't be in both NUPOC and NROTC.  If your question is: how do I become a Nuke officer in NROTC - let your advisor know that's what you want when you join your unit.  There will be a nuke officer at your unit to guide you and your unit will prep you for the Naval Reactors exam and interview. Your part is to take the courses that you need for the minimum academic req'ts (all engineering degrees will meet these), me, choose a engineering major (I suggest chemical, electrical or mechanical, in that order), maintain a stong GPA (>3.6) and stay out of trouble with your advisor.  Do these things and you have a great shot at getting it.  There are no guarantees (you could goon the interviews, etc,) but I would bet a month's paycheck if you meet the above you're in.

As to dropping NROTC to pick up NUPOC - I don't think they'll let you do two years under NROTC and then dop it for NUPOC.  They've all ready got you - why would they use up a slot they need to pick up somebody else?  I have never heard of this but it might be possible - again let your NROTC unit guide you.  They want you to succeed.  Also, you need to ask whether NUPOC or NROTC is better.  NUPOC gives you the pay of an E-6 but won't pick up tuition, books, etc. So depending on your university's tuition it might not be a better deal.

[nukeman235]

So you're saying that nuclear engineering isn't the best major for becoming a nuclear engineer?