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Offline Eric_Bartlett

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Meter Reading Training
« on: Jun 08, 2007, 03:39 »
During the spring 2007 outage season there were several locations across the country where a timed “survey meter reading” exercise was given.  It was brought to Bartlett’s attention that some of the contract health physics technicians had difficulty with this exercise. 
 
In response to this information Bartlett has a “survey meter reading” practice exercise that is now located on the Bartlett Website.    To access the “Practice Exercise” the individuals only need to log onto the Bartlett website, www.bartlettinc.com and click the link located under the “Special Announcements” section. 
 
The opinions & views expressed by me are mine and mine alone and may not reflect those of the company.

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #1 on: Jun 10, 2007, 11:34 »
I hope it was only juniors that had problems with this - I'd hate to be relying on a Sr Tech survey if they can't read a meter. :(

Thanks for the info, good presentation, educational for them that needs it. :)
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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #2 on: Jun 10, 2007, 09:22 »
I agree HouseDad.   But there are those who do the majority of their junior time at the RCA exit or the CTMT SOP and they really don't get in the field till they make 18.1.   You hate to do it to them but you have got to have that RP presence there at those areas.  It can be a difficult transition for some people. 
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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #3 on: Jun 10, 2007, 10:18 »
Nope it wasnt  just juniors ( at the places that I was given this test) it was mainly seniors and a lot of them have over ten years of experience.  It was embarassing to be associated with the group, they should of strip them of their senior status.  A few "senior" techs failed it more than once.  If a tech cant pass the meter  test shouldn't his or her surveys from previous outages be looked at?  Shouldnt NRC be looking at the results of these tests and where these techs have been?  Does this go on the person's bartlett evaluation or is it just thrown away?     

Offline nothinbuttrouble

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #4 on: Jun 10, 2007, 10:20 »
i was one of those fortunate people that was at  outage where this exam was given to us .  i will say in everyones defense there were senior that have been long time seniors.  some of them had  difficulty passing this exam. they failed the exam.   those of us who didnt make it on the first try were given training to help us get thru this.  the training was very helpful.  i found the time given to do it was not enough time 15 seconds to read the meter write your answer done.  it was presented as a slide show.  for those of us who arent test takers it was alittle to much pressure.  but thank god we made it thru it.  this exam will show up more and more as it was introduced to various sites management while we were there taken it for the first time.  thank you to bartlett for putting something on the website page to help us out.  susquehanna and beaver valley will be given it this fall.  susquehanna is where it originated from by hp supervisor there. mtj

Offline grantime

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #5 on: Jun 10, 2007, 11:29 »
This is probably a good trend.  Every outage it seems that we have issues with dose rates off by factor of 10.  And perhaps not everyone has seen all the meters.  Hopefully all anyone needs is a bit of a refresher-- if they need more than that then perhaps it is time to revisit their quals .  More often than not the problems aren't with the meter reading it is with survey technique... sometimes you've got to put a meter on the pipe to find a contact dose rate :o
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RNN

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #6 on: Jun 10, 2007, 11:58 »
Kudos to Bartlett for doing this for those new folks that need it and those that need a refresher.

At the project I'm at in Idaho we have some really green juniors and I'll have them go take this test.

RNN

Offline RRhoads

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #7 on: Jun 11, 2007, 01:50 »
Like someone said before..the meters that we use are like a carpenters basic "hammers"!
There are no big tricks to using an Ion chamber, teletector type inst. or a
count rate meter.
Bottom line....These are the BASICS!
Seems kinda embarassing that B has to even hav a practice area for this!
And YES i HAVE taken these tests before & PASSED them on the First try!
« Last Edit: Jun 11, 2007, 04:47 by RRhoads »

Offline retired nuke

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #8 on: Jun 11, 2007, 04:51 »
This is probably a good trend.  Every outage it seems that we have issues with dose rates off by factor of 10.  And perhaps not everyone has seen all the meters.  Hopefully all anyone needs is a bit of a refresher-- if they need more than that then perhaps it is time to revisit their quals .  More often than not the problems aren't with the meter reading it is with survey technique... sometimes you've got to put a meter on the pipe to find a contact dose rate :o

And remember, just because you have the meter on the pipe, doesn't mean it's the source...if it's not the source, it shouldn't be recorded as a contact dose rate... ;)
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Offline RDTroja

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #9 on: Jun 11, 2007, 09:25 »
Good presentation... but it just about infuriates me that it is necessary. At the risk of sounding like a certain Dickens character, anyone with the title of HP (junior or senior) that can't read a meter (whether or not they have seen that particular model) needs to decrease the excess HP population by 1. Maybe that sounds a bit harsh, but there is NO excuse for anyone with any experience to fail that test.

I am currently teaching a class of new juniors and I am going to test them before I let them out of the classroom. I bet they all pass without any instruction before the test.
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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #10 on: Jun 11, 2007, 10:10 »
I believe that RDTroja is full of his self. I hope his class does pass. There are a lot of NEW JRs. in this buisness who don't get the opertunity to take a class and have to do it OJT. I believe that meter training on line that Bartlett put up is benifical for all, Including YOU P*********!
« Last Edit: Jun 11, 2007, 11:21 by Nuclear NASCAR »

Offline RDTroja

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #11 on: Jun 11, 2007, 10:24 »
I never said it wasn't beneficial I said it was infuriating that it was necessary. I never got any formal training, either... but I learned to read a meter with a few minutes of OJT and made sure I knew how to do it before I put my signature on anything. One thing that this has done for me is to prove the level of ignorance that exists in our business. Thank you for making it even clearer.
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Offline RRhoads

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #12 on: Jun 11, 2007, 10:37 »
"I believe that RDTroja is full of his self. I hope his class does pass. There are a lot of NEW JRs. in this buisness who don't get the opertunity to take a class and have to do it OJT. I believe that meter training on line that Bartlett put up is benifical for all, Including YOU P*********!

This is BS!

Sealbeater...learn the trade....then you can have an opinion!
It is embarassing that Sr. technicians have to have this class because they can't read the damn tool of their trade!
If you can't do the job....get out!
Bottom line!!!!!
« Last Edit: Jun 11, 2007, 11:23 by Nuclear NASCAR »

Offline Laning

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #13 on: Jun 11, 2007, 12:08 »
[ those of us who didnt make it on the first try were given training to help us get thru this.  the training was very helpful.  i found the time given to do it was not enough time 15 seconds to read the meter write your answer done.  it was presented as a slide show.  for those of us who arent test takers it was alittle to much pressure.  but thank god we made it thru it.]

HUH?? I can't believe I'm reading this. Too much pressure...to read numbers off a meter? I'm sorry, but that cannot be the right answer. I can almost understand messing up a half-life question as a senior...but READING THE RIGHT NUMBER OFF A METER? If RDTROJA is full of himself, he ain't alone. Do yourself a favor. Dont rely on god to get you through the next test. Take a little pride in what you do.



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alphadude

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #14 on: Jun 11, 2007, 12:13 »
EVERY and I do mean every Sr and Jr I checked on failed the scan rate.  Its just a matter of practice- no big deal... I though meter reading was part of basic enginering operations training, sig. digits, reading between the lines etc. 


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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #15 on: Jun 11, 2007, 12:23 »
 Simple statement of facts...  If you can't read the meter correctly, you should not get the senior pay.

 Whether you have had formal training or learned OJT... you have to be able to do the job that you were hired for.  That includes being able to document surveys, pass a meter exam and pass the NUF.

 I am all for training someone how to do the job properly..... but a senior hired should be a person that is able to sdo the job correctly.

 As for the level of juniors out there, there is a huge group of them just waiting to prove themselves as a competent (if not outstanding) senoir.  And I am here to help them if they but ask.

Offline nothinbuttrouble

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #16 on: Jun 11, 2007, 02:14 »
okay maybe it was the poor wording. regardless of what i said i do take pride in my job.  it was only my opinion noone else had to like it.  sorry the rest us cant be perfect like the rest of the seniors out there.  believe me when i said these  senior that did fail were and have been seniors for a very long time.  the seniors that had failed i would say knew there stuff and very knowledgeable.  you would of been surprised to see who they were. but enough said      i took this as a learning experience and i will take something away from it.  i will say it once again thank you to bartlett for putting the study material on there.   


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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #17 on: Jun 11, 2007, 03:40 »
For the most part, I agree with the sentiments posted in this thread.  I agree that the training is a good and necessary thing, but I also agree that Senior Techs should have no problems reading meters - even unfamiliar ones.

That being said, I also know that I have been on the wrong scale without realizing it at the time.  I also have forgotten that some meters have two probes - the one in your hand and the one inside the case for the highest range.  I have seen Techs that I have an immense amount of respect for (and trust in) misread a dual-scale meter on occasion.  Based on my 30+ years of experience, I can't imagine that any of us haven't misread a meter (see the above examples) at one time or other.

Perhaps I'm just a fallable old guy, but I'll take any refresher the employer or client wants to push my way (while always reserving the right to complain, of course).

stownsend

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #18 on: Jun 11, 2007, 04:17 »
I don't see this test as a problem for Seniors. > 1 year Juniors should have no problems. If they did they should be asking for more help than who wants to play cards on break.Example # 9 and #12 are poor pictures and I can see missing them by one digit. Any training aid is not a bad thing. We have seen all types of meters in our days and we have seen people make mistakes with them. The best advise is if your not sure, don't pretend you know it all. I know this doesn't help when taking a test but I think Bartlett is doing the right thing and helping people and we all should be tolerant to people who need help more than others.  I'm constandly coaching techs and thats why I enjoy staying in the field after all this time. You can keep the management meetings all to yourself.

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #19 on: Jun 11, 2007, 04:25 »
There is no excuse for not being able to properly read a meter if you are a Jr or Sr. If we are at a point where we need classes to read meters, maybe we should re-evalute this whole training scenario. Maybe more OJT.
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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #20 on: Jun 11, 2007, 04:47 »
knowing and reading different makes and models is a whole nuther issue.. each person should be given basic operations of instrument types  and makes... there are no industry standard meters anymore.. (Ro2, tele, rm14).  just because u can drive a car dont mean u can drive a bus

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #21 on: Jun 11, 2007, 06:13 »
I have to honestly say there have been a couple of times I had a problem reading a meter (I knew how to read it). I can think of several times trying to read a teletector in a dark drywell with sweat pouring in my eyes. Invariably it is the famous "self-retracting" one. You know the one, the hotter it is and the higher the dose rate, is directly proportional to how fast it retracts while you are trying to read it. Who made those darn numbers so small anyway!

Offline Laning

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #22 on: Jun 11, 2007, 07:48 »
I'm curious to know what the meter reading test consisted of. How many displays are we talking about? What was the pass/fail criteria? One and done, 90%, 80%,??  There are 18 displays presented in the Bartlett study session, 5 of which are digital readouts with no thought necessary. You could miss as many as 3 and still get an 83%.

Surely everyone whose ever worked as an HP Technician has made mistakes. In the drywell, in the dark, in a respirator is one thing. Sitting in a well lit air conditioned classroom with a cup of coffee and not being able to multiply by 10 or 100 is quite different. 

If the test consisted of 4 or 5 displays and you missed one...I take back everything. Maybe you had a bad day. But if you had 15-20 opportunities including digital displays and you failed...thats just ugly.

Might as well bring in the monkeys.
« Last Edit: Jun 11, 2007, 08:05 by Laning »
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JsonD13

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #23 on: Jun 11, 2007, 07:52 »
I may just be a nubly navy guy, but I passed it on the first try...

Just to pour some salt on  ;-)

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #24 on: Jun 11, 2007, 09:49 »
20 questions for seniors need 80%  juniors 15 questions didnt have to pass or take it i believe.

just because the slides on the study material are clear to see.  it isnt the case when given the slides for test purposes.  im not making any excuses but the slide presentation for bartlett study material was way more better than the ones given for the test.  just my two cents again.   
 

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #25 on: Jun 11, 2007, 09:50 »
The last place I took it there were 10 questions and you could miss two and still pass.  Now seeing the people that failed the test there was a common theme in about 90 percent of them (in my opinion) they were slugs.  We had three different meters, a count rate meter, R02, and a teletector.  There was one tech who said before the test that if anyone fails the test there shouldnt be any excuses.  Guess what that person failed it and guess what that person had plenty of excuses.  If a tech is a "C" tech then do the paperwork get rid of them let the other companies use them.  Lets make those great Bartlett  evals mean something.  If we keep  carrying these techs we will always get 22 per hour.

Offline RRhoads

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #26 on: Jun 12, 2007, 03:00 »
i was one of those fortunate people that was at  outage where this exam was given to us .  i will say in everyones defense there were senior that have been long time seniors.  some of them had  difficulty passing this exam. they failed the exam.   those of us who didnt make it on the first try were given training to help us get thru this.  the training was very helpful.  i found the time given to do it was not enough time 15 seconds to read the meter write your answer done.  it was presented as a slide show.  for those of us who arent test takers it was alittle to much pressure.  but thank god we made it thru it.  this exam will show up more and more as it was introduced to various sites management while we were there taken it for the first time.  thank you to bartlett for putting something on the website page to help us out.  susquehanna and beaver valley will be given it this fall.  susquehanna is where it originated from by hp supervisor there. mtj

Sorry..but if a Senior Technician needs "training" for using one of the BASIC tools..then they should be given 2 options:
Work as a junior to get said training or leave the site.

What would you say if you hired/PAID someone to mow your lawn...but you had to give them training on how to use the lawnmower and give them training on how to mow the lawn????
Ridiculous!
« Last Edit: Jun 12, 2007, 09:28 by RRhoads »

RAD-GHOST

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #27 on: Jun 12, 2007, 03:29 »
Roger, I consider it SAD, not infuriating!

RG    

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #28 on: Jun 12, 2007, 07:43 »
Roger, I consider it SAD, not infuriating!

RG    

I went right through sad and on to infuriating. Remember, these people that can't perform the simplest HP task are getting paid the same as the rest of the techs that can actually do their job. They also reflect terribly on our chosen profession and prove to the utilities that we are not worth more pay because they bring the 'average' down. If some are incompetent and some are very competent, the average becomes just 'competent.' Get rid of the incompetent (or make them competent) and the average is a much better tech who may be worth more money. Or, maybe I just expect too much when I want people to be able to do their jobs and earn their money without reflecting badly on the rest of us that can.
« Last Edit: Jun 20, 2007, 01:12 by RDTroja »
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stownsend

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #29 on: Jun 12, 2007, 08:25 »
I went right through sad and on to infuriating. Remember, these people that can't perform the simplest HP task are getting paid the same as the rest of the techs that can actually do their job. They also reflect terribly on our chosen profession prove to the utilities that we are not worth more pay because they bring the 'average' down. If some are incompetent and some are very competent, the average becomes just 'competent.' Get rid of the incompetent (or make them competent) and the average is a much better tech who may be worth more money. Or, maybe I just expect too much when I want people to be able to do their jobs and earn their money without reflecting badly on the rest of us that can.

I've had to help alot of techs over the years. I saw one using a BC-4 and  multipling the eff instead of dividing for release surveys. Numerous times I've found areas where techs leave a b-25 that is now a Radiation area or High Rad area and didn't post it properly. What do want to do run to management everytime someone makes a mistake or help them.  They most likely won't make the same mistake. If I went to management everytime I saw or percieved I saw a mistake I'd be shot. I remember where I came from and I never claimed that I was born with the ability to read meters.I had no problem with the Bartlett examples but I wouldn't expect a new junior to know all, see all. How many ex nukes did you have to keep an eye on their first outage because they had never seen what we did every day.They could spit out theory for breakfast but needed help adjusting to commercial. A Senior missing this test I'll hold my opinion until I see or hear how the test was administered.I know I would have to sit in the front of the class because I didn't bring my glasses.
« Last Edit: Jun 12, 2007, 11:43 by RDTroja »

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #30 on: Jun 12, 2007, 09:05 »
I believe that RDTroja is full of his self. I hope his class does pass. There are a lot of NEW JRs. in this buisness who don't get the opertunity to take a class and have to do it OJT. I believe that meter training on line that Bartlett put up is benifical for all, Including YOU P*********!

I couldn't read your survey map with all the pidgin English...more OJT?

alphadude

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #31 on: Jun 12, 2007, 09:41 »
remeber the root cause - management or training   either they were poorly managed or did not get the proper training... or both   

the techs in-ability certainly may reflect on their personal goals, self worth etc...which seems to be the debate here ... but the focus should be on how did these lower skilled technicians get this far already...?? Its not their fault....

illegalsmile

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #32 on: Jun 12, 2007, 11:04 »
It is sad (and infuriating) that there are techs out there that can't read a meter. If you had formal training (Navy, college, whatever) you should've learned there. If you came up OJT, you should've learned as a deconner as soon as you decided you wanted to HP for a living. Your ability to accurately read an instrument should've been verified by your first site (and by every site thereafter) before you ever drew a paycheck. And before that, your employer (be it Bartlett, Atlantic, MarCom or Nuclear Ho's, Inc) should have done it so they didn't look like idiots for sending techs who couldn't read a meter.
A tech who can't read a meter is like a truck driver who can't press a brake pedal. It's just wrong.

Evilpixie

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #33 on: Jun 12, 2007, 11:18 »
I think it's great that practical skills are finally being tested... Sometimes I wonder why there isn't an HP entrance test that goes like this: "You're covering a job and these are the conditions.... "  There are many who can babble all kinds of theory like they are some kind of atom whisperer but when it comes time to really cover a job, they're clueless.

Yes, it is great that practical skills are being tested, although it is a bit pathetic that the test isn't being passed by some long time seniors.  One thing I am curious about regarding them- how was their vision?  I've seen some who don't rattle off dose rates rapidly simply because they have poor vision. 


LaFeet

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #34 on: Jun 12, 2007, 12:02 »
So   where is this going to end???

Are we going to continue and pursue those that cannot function as hired?
Pay them to learn the job the claimed to be qualified for?

This (sadly) is just as bad as a senior not being able to pass the NUF.


alphadude

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #35 on: Jun 12, 2007, 01:00 »
again you all seem to be on the personal level.. its higher than this..

utilities, trainers, employers are responsible to their customers to provide a service that meets specifications..

Should have learned, they cant do this or that.. etc.  implies a personal level motivation.. deal with the real problem- the service providers are not doing their job when they supply a lower than specification service or product.. which involves a profit margin shift yadda yadda...

If you keep this on the personal level you must look in the mirror.. some of the problem may be seen there.

illegalsmile

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #36 on: Jun 12, 2007, 01:36 »
i do tend to agree that it goes back to 'you get what you pay for.' with the tightening of budgets and a decrease in emphasis on HP, there is less and less money to pay contract techs. This has caused a shortage of quality people and since the utilities don't really care about the level of HP being provided, they hire whoever will take the job.

Offline grantime

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #37 on: Jun 12, 2007, 01:56 »
There is more than enough blame to go around, the individuals involved,  training, companies hiring them(both contract and utility).  And this isn't a new problem but years ago when we brought in 90 techs for an outage instead of 20 we could pair the weaker techs with stronger or assign them somewhere they (hopefully) couldn't screw up.  Now there isn't the slack or extra techs to make up the difference. This is a problem whether techs involved aren't up to speed or whether they have physical limitations. With fewer techs the HP office is trying to juggle fewer techs with same or more work load.  When there are techs in pool that you can't count on to be able to cover any job that comes up,  it makes it that much harder on HP office.

As to how to fix the problem, any training has to help.  Maybe just knowing that test is coming will help techs focus but every outage we have seniors that know that they have to pass NUE and still fail.  Funny part is that some of them will cop and attitude about doing junior work (at senior pay) until they retake the test.

Its all well and good to talk about weeding out weak sisters from our ranks(house and contract) but we aren't turning out senior fast enough to cover empty staffing slots so the utilities have to take what they can get. Even if money doubles for contract techs then that doesn't solve this particular problem.  (granted it would make dealing with it more fun) There are still not enough good techs for the amount of work.
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Offline SloGlo

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #38 on: Jun 12, 2007, 09:35 »
kut it out!  yinz guys is scaring me!  der are techs watt kant reed a meter?  kin dey due scientific notation work in der heads?  calc activitiy offa an a/s wit a frisker?  hail, dez are da building blox of da sandbox.  iffen ya kant due these, ya shudant be a senior.  iffen ya don't due well on tests, howz ya doing going phrum site to sight, cause wit all eye bin reeding, it test after test.  back ina day, der wuz lotsa techs watt had probs wit tests, 'n dey relied on da physical walk thrus to git on site.  iffen ya coodent reed da meters, ya weren't there no mo. 
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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #39 on: Jun 13, 2007, 07:25 »
it's simple economics. whatever you want, whether it's a hot car, good whiskey or competent techs, the more you are willing to pay for it, the more of them there are. right now the utilities and the DOE contractors are, for the most part, unwilling to pay for quality contractor techs so you wind up with people who can't read meters, can't climb ladders, can't do math, can't work in the heat etc, etc etc.
Most of the places I've worked lately, our hourly rate was $10/hr or more less than the house techs were making. That's not including the disparity in the benefits packages. Is it any wonder we have a lot of disfunctional techs showing up for outages? And who do you suppose gets to pick up the slack for the people who "can't" do their jobs?
« Last Edit: Jun 13, 2007, 07:26 by illegalsmile »

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #40 on: Jun 13, 2007, 07:32 »
again you all seem to be on the personal level.. its higher than this..

utilities, trainers, employers are responsible to their customers to provide a service that meets specifications..

Should have learned, they cant do this or that.. etc.  implies a personal level motivation.. deal with the real problem- the service providers are not doing their job when they supply a lower than specification service or product.. which involves a profit margin shift yadda yadda...

If you keep this on the personal level you must look in the mirror.. some of the problem may be seen there.

I agree with your outlook into this problem.  But I do not think that anyone out there, claiming that they can do the job, should get paid for the quality of work I provide if they can not function to my standards.  I am not one who toots his own horn.... but I do take pride in knowong that I can be placed in a hot running situation, make educated choices and provide documentation to support my actions.  If you cant read a meter, then dont take a senior position until you can.  At least ask for help... I would be more than happy to assist.... and I wont tell.  I want more seniors out there.... I do not plan on being a roadie all my life.

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #41 on: Jun 13, 2007, 02:59 »
oh now u want some ethics to enter into this... i agree with ya... but if someone is going to hand out money and not have high expectations.... where does the line form cause all of us will be there..  we used to staff by the method of "give me sum warm bodies" ... remember all those maitai girls and bar queens that got recruited back in the 70s and 80s?

where is RAD Services when u needs them?

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #42 on: Jun 13, 2007, 03:34 »
Yeah, what he said.

I just gave my Junior HP class the 'test' on the Bartlett site... the lowest score was 90% and that was due to an unfamiliarity with the meters shown. These guys are not fully qualified yet and got no formal training other than OJT on using survey meters.

It's not rocket surgery.
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Offline Camella Black

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #43 on: Jun 13, 2007, 08:22 »
okay get your spite fingers ready.... just where did most of you guys spring from? where you born h.p.'s? how many of you actually went to college and or the navy for your h.p. education? how many of you drifted into this business? and did someone not help you out along the line? one of the best h.p.'s I have ever known is Henry, of course I am prejudiced on his account, but he drifted in and he was allowed to learn and was taught by some of the best; but I am very sure that he made mistakes or was slow when he first came on the scene. as I am sure most of you were too. besides many people have slower reaction times, this does not make them bad h.p.'s

I feel sorry for some of the younger techs, newer techs or anyone who has to work with the majority of the attitudes I see at times on here; sure these people may not be as skilled as you (count your blessings), they may not be as quick as you (again be thankful) and I'm sure most regret this and want to be better but the powers that be just ain't leaning that way... too many sights don't allow you to roll back to junior or work with you on this anymore they just cut you loose or cuss you out, or both. you all know its true...then you get back home or to your hotel and read that your coworkers think you're slack and that puts extra pressure on you, whew.

now heres my take on timed test, I think they're b.s. pure and simple; I'd rather have someone who could read the dang meter correctly any day than one who could do it fast. Are we now putting h.p.'s on an assembly line? What type of pressure and possible mistakes could we be causing here, I can just imagine someone more worried about turning out all his surveys in a set amount of time and cutting corners, misreading and heck maybe just guessing instead of taking the time to do it slow and correctly... this is what is wrong with most of the items we now use in our daily lifes, automation. You guys that are in the unions should be standing up for and protesting against this in my book...

didn't mean to read you the riot act, this just struck a raw nerve...

p.s. thanks Bartlett for seeing a need and doing something productive about it
« Last Edit: Jun 13, 2007, 08:24 by Camella Black »

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #44 on: Jun 13, 2007, 08:29 »
camella,  personally, i drifted into the field.  after a while, i realized i wasn't going many places as a 18.1, so i scored a slot at an operating nuke and got the time in for the 3.1.  of coors this was right after they dropped the "operational" word from the tech specs, dang!  then i realize i needed some better theory knowledge, so i jumped on a doe/dod contract and picked up the navships107 training and rating.  watt duz this mean?  not squat.  when i was brand spanking new, frisking incoming laundry and on-site washed rubber wear, i was poliltely (not really, but i'm trying for sensivity points here) that a meter face was like a speedometer.  iffen i coodent read a speedo, i had no business driving and if i coodant reed a meter face i had no business being in a nuke.  that was the attitude 3 decades ago.  i guess it has changed, huh?  mnaybe it's the new math?
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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #45 on: Jun 13, 2007, 09:28 »
Why are we thanking Bartlett for these quiz test for basic meters?  Yes it maybe good for Juniors, but the techs that have been in the business for more than ten years and still cant read a meter should be gone.  Its "pitiful"  that we have to work with these techs that I have seen fail this test (most of them). But hey everyone knows the companies motto.  "If they breathe their billable".  If I was running a company and didnt care about the good techs  and was here to make money I would do the same thing.  Everyone also knows that the cordinators and lead techs (the good ones) at sites  will spread out the bad techs.   In truth we shouldnt be mad at below average techs because we all get below average pay for our craft.   

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #46 on: Jun 13, 2007, 11:46 »
Why are we thanking Bartlett for these quiz test for basic meters?  Yes it maybe good for Juniors, but the techs that have been in the business for more than ten years and still cant read a meter should be gone.  Its "pitiful"  that we have to work with these techs that I have seen fail this test (most of them). But hey everyone knows the companies motto.  "If they breathe their billable".  If I was running a company and didnt care about the good techs  and was here to make money I would do the same thing.  Everyone also knows that the cordinators and lead techs (the good ones) at sites  will spread out the bad techs.   In truth we shouldnt be mad at below average techs because we all get below average pay for our craft.   

I think that Bartlett is doing us all a service, not everyone is a speed demon and its a good idea for everyone to brush up or hone their skills. Doctors and sports figures are two groups of people I can think of that do this routinely. And I don't blame Bartlett or not Barlett alone for the shortage of techs, look towards the utilities and their inability to schedule the outages in a way in which their would be an abundance of good techs.
« Last Edit: Jun 13, 2007, 11:56 by Camella Black »

Offline grantime

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #47 on: Jun 14, 2007, 03:07 »
And I don't blame Bartlett or not Barlett alone for the shortage of techs, look towards the utilities and their inability to schedule the outages in a way in which their would be an abundance of good techs.

Power companies are only interested in selling power.  There is less demand during the spring and fall and no matter how much we wish they would spread out the work they are going to do it during lowest demand period.  That is reason that outages have stacked up on top of each other and that will only get worse.

I'm not sure that there is anyone-contract companies or utilities - that are the bad guys in this shortage.  Deregulation forced changes in ways that utilities can account for costs.  You and I generally appreciate that in terms of lower power bills.  The downside is that it forces them to be cheap SOB's.  So they quit bringing in as many techs.  Perhaps more importantly it meant that utilities quit "investing" in techs by making sure pipeline of new folks stayed full and trained.  Companies are notoriously shortsighted when it comes to expenses.  Save a dollar now and worry about future staff shortages latter.  You may argue that it is wrong thing to do but it is what is being demanded of them.  Wall Street will punish any company that was spending more than mininium for labor.
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Offline RDTroja

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #48 on: Jun 14, 2007, 07:22 »
Camella --

I also 'drifted' into the industry... although I describe it as walking down the street and falling into an open manhole. I got no formal training. I was taught to read a meter so I could drive a radwaste truck. I brought several friends into the business and taught them how to read a meter and as far as I know they all did it properly. I am not talking about being a speed demon, I am talking about a minor skill and attention to detail and doing a job right. I have a pretty good reputation for helping people out. I am a teacher even when I am not getting paid for it. I want others to succeed. But those that can't perform the most basic of HP skills should not be getting paid to do it... it is bad for us as HPs and bad for the industry we depend on.

The bottom line here is that speed does matter, at least to a point. You MUST be accurate, but you also have to be quick. When you are taking a survey, you cannot keep your distance, you have no shielding, so all you can rely on to keep your dose low is time. If one tech can do an accurate survey for 2 mR, it is unnaceptable for another technician to take 10mR. The skill of being able to think on your feet is a vital one for HPs, and those that can't pass a timed test are probably not very good at improvising quickly either. Why do you think the MASS test is timed (and POSS, too)?

Bartlett is certainly doing us a favor by giving people a chance to improve. But this skill has to be part of the starter kit, not something that is picked up later. Give the new techs this info first, not after they are already seniors.
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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #49 on: Jun 14, 2007, 08:51 »
While it is the Contract Company's best interest to send competent people, and it is certainly in the licencee's best interest to ensure that the people doing surveys at their facilities are competent, it is each tech's RESPONSIBILITY to be able to do the job they're paid to do.
Kudos to anyone who provides training, particularly FREE training, and a pox on anyone who's willing to coast into a senior HP slot without the basic skills and understanding necessary to do a good job.

Offline Carolina Jethro

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #50 on: Jun 14, 2007, 09:05 »
Just my 2 cents worth... I didn't see anything challenging at all about the test. If you can't read a meter I would not want you out covering a crew in a high rad area. I see some techs have trouble with the conversion of cpm to dpm ...and even more having trouble with military time. If you can't figure that out you need to really do some brushing up or find another line of work. I am sure most techs have time to do the practice test on nukeworker during down time to keep on top of things. Also thanks to Bartlett for providing the training. I would like to see more training provided by the companies. It is a win-win situation for everyone.

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #51 on: Jun 14, 2007, 09:41 »
Eric B. - You started a firestorm with this post. What is the contract company's position in this matter? Is there a possibility of future contracts containing some type of provision that test's all techs upon reporting to site and adjusting pay based on first time test results and not 2nd and 3rd chances. I realize that this could create a shortage of senior techs at the site, but if the pay was right, you'd get some old time techs out of DOE and back in to commercial.

As far as posting on this matter, I can't say anything that hasn't been said. It seems that we have beaten the horse pretty good. There is only so many ways that you can say "If you can't do the job your paid to do, go home". That is the way it is in all non-nuclear jobs, and they don't all deal with public health and safety. I'd hate to be in a situation where a cop was protecting me and I had to show him how to use the gun while the bad guy was shooting at me.

Camella - you tried to put a different spin on the situation. I'll give you credit for that, but there aren't two ways too look at this. You can either do your job or you can't. If you can't, you need to go back for more training or change your line of work. If I come across a situation that I am unfamiliar with or a big job that could have major implications if a mistake was made, I am not afraid too ask for help, but reading a meter isn't one of those situations. I'm not perfect as I have made one or two mistakes in my life. (I think)

Keith

Offline RDTroja

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #52 on: Jun 14, 2007, 09:44 »
While it is the Contract Company's best interest to send competent people, and it is certainly in the licencee's best interest to ensure that the people doing surveys at their facilities are competent, it is each tech's RESPONSIBILITY to be able to do the job they're paid to do.
Kudos to anyone who provides training, particularly FREE training, and a pox on anyone who's willing to coast into a senior HP slot without the basic skills and understanding necessary to do a good job.

Well stated and very accurate... but I thought I was the only one that used 'a pox' as a curse in this day and age. I like it.
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Offline UncaBuffalo

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #53 on: Jun 14, 2007, 10:25 »
So what did it take to be a 'right' answer? 

Am I going to flunk this test for putting down 30K or 35K, instead of 32K?  Or 1R, instead of 0.9R? 

Because, if that was the case, I would flunk this test.  I have never seen the point of some bozo standing up on a S/G platform waiting for his/her 2A to settle out so they can differentiate between 7.5R & 8R...IT DOESN'T MATTER!  Give me a good round number within 20% of actual...and I'll have enough safety built into my staytime to make up for the difference. 

And does 220K give me more info on setting my contamination controls?  NO!  Tell me the stupid thing is 200K...or 250K...it's NOT going to affect my job coverage!
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Offline Laning

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #54 on: Jun 14, 2007, 10:27 »
Folks,

I'm just flabbergasted by the discussion. I can't understand ANY defense of this situation. We're talking about people accepting positions of a "safety" nature. Positions that are deemed important enough to require an ANSI standard. Positons that have the "potential" if not performed properly, to physically harm through overexposure; and more likely to do significant financial harm to your client. There are standards for a reason. I'm sorry, if you can't use the basic tools of your trade, your not a tradesman. To defend this situation is offensive to all those people on here who've spent countless hrs preparing themselves to meet the requirements of the position. I don't care where you came from, college, navy, local bar. Its no one else's fault for what you don't know. Its not the utility's fault, it sure as hell isnt Bartlett's fault.

If you think timed tests are B.S....that doent speak well of your understanding of your job. Time, distance, shielding,...fundamental ALARA concepts. TIME being the first variable mentioned. If you find yourself perplexed by the choice of "fast" or "correct" then you don't get it. The job is all about efficiency, (fast + correct)= Sr HP is the right answer here, not one or the other.

I don't want to hear what a pompous ass I am. No I was not born an HP. I personally spent 7 yrs as a deconner because I didnt think I was smart enough to be an HP. I was helped and coached by some very generous people when I decided to make the switch.  No one had to drag me by my hood, or coax me away from a card game to get me experience. I struggled with the math and theory....so I studied..and studied...and studied. What I didnt need to do at that point was study my meters. I learned to read those meters long before I ever dreamed of becoming an HP.
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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #55 on: Jun 14, 2007, 10:32 »


I feel sorry for some of the younger techs, newer techs or anyone who has to work with the majority of the attitudes I see at times on here; sure these people may not be as skilled as you (count your blessings), they may not be as quick as you (again be thankful)

I agree that 30 year super-techs should not expect that the 3 years techs will be as knowledgeable in the field, but reading a meter is a skill developed at the junior level.  We are not talking about doing a quick shielding calculation on the back of a smear record paper and making a lead blanket decision in the field.

What scares me is if what if acceptance of this senior tech flaw creeps into the calibration lab?  What if the guy calibrating the meters can't read a meter?  Of course then it won't matter if your senior techs can't read meters.  :)

illegalsmile

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #56 on: Jun 14, 2007, 11:05 »
I thought I was the only one that used 'a pox' as a curse in this day and age
I picked it up at Calvert Cliffs in 1981

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #57 on: Jun 14, 2007, 12:36 »
There is no excuse for not being able to properly read a meter if you are a Jr or Sr. If we are at a point where we need classes to read meters, maybe we should re-evalute this whole training scenario. Maybe more OJT.

exactly, this is a "Darwin Check" ...can't pass this, your badge shouldn't work,period.

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #58 on: Jun 14, 2007, 12:50 »
So what did it take to be a 'right' answer? 

Am I going to flunk this test for putting down 30K or 35K, instead of 32K?  Or 1R, instead of 0.9R? 

Because, if that was the case, I would flunk this test.  I have never seen the point of some bozo standing up on a S/G platform waiting for his/her 2A to settle out so they can differentiate between 7.5R & 8R...IT DOESN'T MATTER!  Give me a good round number within 20% of actual...and I'll have enough safety built into my staytime to make up for the difference. 

And does 220K give me more info on setting my contamination controls?  NO!  Tell me the stupid thing is 200K...or 250K...it's NOT going to affect my job coverage!

I did not penalize my trainees for putting 1R instead of .9R... and it prompted a good discussion of why... pretty much what you expressed. If that constitutes a wrong answer, then the test is flawed.
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Offline SloGlo

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #59 on: Jun 14, 2007, 01:51 »
kudos 'n karma to everbuddy dat brought up the "time" factor.  speed is essential for the tech's own radiological safety.  accuracy is for everyone elses.  neither should be compromised.  'bout da onliest time eye kin tink of when speed 'n accuracy may not be of essence is when ya bag a qtπ 'n put it ona reech rod to get a contact d/r ona fuel bundle.  then yer allowed da extra time ta focus da binoculars. 
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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #60 on: Jun 14, 2007, 05:07 »
I did not penalize my trainees for putting 1R instead of .9R...
but you might want to gig them if they do it the other way around (.9R/hr when it should be 1.0 R/hr) for obvious reasons.

Offline thenukeman

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #61 on: Jun 14, 2007, 09:12 »
You have DOE using a correction factor of 5 and 30 for point and plane for pancake probes and nukeplants using 10 for both.  About the only time DOE is right.  But when I am at the nuke plants, I do what the nuke plants want, while in Rome do what the Romans do!!! LOL even if you know it is wrong!  I tell them but they do not listen.

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #62 on: Jun 14, 2007, 09:28 »
I think that Bartlett is doing us all a service, not everyone is a speed demon and its a good idea for everyone to brush up or hone their skills. Doctors and sports figures are two groups of people I can think of that do this routinely. And I don't blame Bartlett or not Barlett alone for the shortage of techs, look towards the utilities and their inability to schedule the outages in a way in which their would be an abundance of good techs.
  If there is such a shortage of techs why dont we make decent wages compared to the craft? We are the only craft here that doesnt make double time here at the site Im at.  FME people are making three dollars less than us.  Safety people who dont even enter the comaninated areas make 10 dollar more than us. We dont have a shortage of techs we have a shortage of quality techs.  Bartlett shouldnt even have to give this practice test because it just sad that we still have veteran techs who cant read a meter.

Offline gammaman30

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #63 on: Jun 14, 2007, 10:01 »
  If there is such a shortage of techs why dont we make decent wages compared to the craft? We are the only craft here that doesnt make double time here at the site Im at.  FME people are making three dollars less than us.  Safety people who dont even enter the comaninated areas make 10 dollar more than us. We dont have a shortage of techs we have a shortage of quality techs.  Bartlett shouldnt even have to give this practice test because it just sad that we still have veteran techs who cant read a meter.
Well I already said it once HP Techs are stupid! You will not make more money while you are willing to work for that wage 22 hour there at columbia. You and eveyone else here complaining about techs that can not pass the meter test but you are there working next to them. Demand more money than the losers that cant pass the test and dont work for 22 hour! just say no or shut up! you guys are no better than they are when you work for peanuts! ::)

raymcginnis

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #64 on: Jun 14, 2007, 10:15 »
'bout da onliest time eye kin tink of when speed 'n accuracy may not be of essence is when ya bag a qtπ 'n put it ona reech rod to get a contact d/r ona fuel bundle.  then yer allowed da extra time ta focus da binoculars. 

Ah yes SloGlo, ALARA, as in time distance and shielding.  When your pipe hangers can't hold any more shielding, like Maine Yankee in the early 80's, all you have is time.  You had to run in between survey points inside of the bioshield after maximum shielding.  My advice to the workers was "You don't want to go in there."   ;D

What if the guy calibrating the meters can't read a meter?  Of course then it won't matter if your senior techs can't read meters.

Witty sarcasm.  I like it.

It seems to me that the meter reading problem has been recognized by the plants, hence the test.  Bartlett has recognized that they can't put unqualified techs in the field, hence the training.  Hopefully that problem will resolve itself.  What if this is only an underlying problem to the major problem of general lack of knowledge today?  Sounds like we need to bring back oral boards.

  If there is such a shortage of techs why dont we make decent wages compared to the craft?

The pay thing is "Catch 22."  The good techs leave because of the low pay and the utilities don't want to pay the remaining mostly under-qualified techs higher pay.  In the end, if the outage gets done, they probably don't care about either.

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #65 on: Jun 15, 2007, 07:43 »
Go to the site and take the Primer. If the real test is just like this, then I agree, you can't read a meter you can't do job coverage.  >:(  I had no problem with the test and I have been out of HP for 13 years.
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stownsend

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #66 on: Jun 15, 2007, 08:55 »
Can someone tell me how this test was administered? Someone said it was a slide presentation. Was the test given in a room with thirty people trying to see the screen? Were the pictures adequate or were they fuzzy? Did they have questionalable pictures like the # 9and # 12 examples on Bartletts WEB? Someone said they had 10 questions and someone had 20. Are they trying to see if I can read a meter correctly or can I read a meter quickly from 20 feet? Again this is not a hard test. I did find myself scanning the whole page to make sure there wasn't some instruction I missed. This is in instilled in all of us to read the whole question before answering.

Offline nothinbuttrouble

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #67 on: Jun 15, 2007, 09:08 »
it was given in a classroom setting with about 20 - 30 people sitted at long tables.  tested was then admisitred from a slide presentation on a screen.    some of the pictures werent of the best quality.  the test given at susquehanna has 20 questions.   you were given 15 seconds to view the slide on the screen then write your answer down.  the reading on the meter had to be accurate no arounding off if it 5.8 mr/hr you couldnt put 6 mr/hr.  one particular meter gave alot of people problems.  it is a meter we wouldnt use every day.  this is my observation and my opinion. 

alphadude

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #68 on: Jun 15, 2007, 09:21 »
sounds fishy   so are they testing your ability to see, make a decision in 15 seconds, test under an induced pressure (this method of testing) etc   if you want people to read meters you give them a page or two of printed faces of different styles and increments and say you have x minutes to finish the test.  Teach attention to detail by another method not the cheap slide show you just mentioned.

 sounds like they didnt follow the systematic approach to training.  it really kicks STAR in the A**.

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #69 on: Jun 15, 2007, 09:44 »
The pay thing is "Catch 22."  The good techs leave because of the low pay and the utilities don't want to pay the remaining mostly under-qualified techs higher pay.  In the end, if the outage gets done, they probably don't care about either.

amen, brudder radpro guy.
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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #70 on: Jun 15, 2007, 10:54 »
Bartlett shouldnt even have to give this practice test because it just sad that we still have veteran techs who cant read a meter.

That may be true...but I'm glad they did give the practice...it's an easy test if you've seen it, but always nice to have an idea what to expect...
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metermaid

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #71 on: Jun 15, 2007, 11:41 »
I just looked at the training after reading recent replies.  I would say that a few of the photos, where they say "the needle is clearly between..." is not true.  Since the photos are taken at an angle from the instrument, not dead on, it is not clear, especially if you are looking from across the room at a projection screen and only have 15 seconds.  There are at least 3 that I may or may not have missed, depending on my caffeine level at that time.  Most of them I would have still gotten though, even under those circumstances, even as a junior tech.  They do need better, clear, concise photos though.

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #72 on: Jun 15, 2007, 12:00 »
fyi, asa propheshunawl meter reader, eye hadda go take dis test.  hadda sea watt alla buzz waz, yinz no?  what i saw bleu me away!  dang!  no beer in mind, eye ain't looked ata meter dat duz remote monitoring, high range (>20mr/hr), or extends furthar dan my hand fer t........ a long time.  'n eye gotta tell ya, eye dawnt even no why ennybuddy is defending sumbuddy as an hp woo kant pass dis ting.  iffen ya don't make da cut on dis test, ya oughta go down da rode efreekingmediately.  btw, i gotta 96.1%.  eye eben chequed my math ona cell phone calculator, sews ya no itz goode.

metermaid,  this wuzant posted against yew. yinz got yer post in der wile i wuz bizee wit da phone.  but, i didn't have da discrimination probs.  must be dat propheshunawl meter reader label, huh?
« Last Edit: Jun 15, 2007, 12:04 by SloGlo »
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stownsend

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #73 on: Jun 15, 2007, 01:02 »
If I wrote down there would be no reading # 4 because it is out of calibration would I get it wrong? Hey Slogo check your phone calculator because it is hard to get a 96.1 when each question would be worth 5 points if there are 20 questions, unless you got a partial credit from Marty V.

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #74 on: Jun 15, 2007, 05:20 »
Well I already said it once HP Techs are stupid! You will not make more money while you are willing to work for that wage 22 hour there at columbia. You and eveyone else here complaining about techs that can not pass the meter test but you are there working next to them. Demand more money than the losers that cant pass the test and dont work for 22 hour! just say no or shut up! you guys are no better than they are when you work for peanuts! ::)

Perhaps you need some more gammas!

15 seconds is more than enough time per meter face, and having the pics taken at an angle reinforces the concept that the tech needs to take meter parallax into consideration, makes for a fine mini-JPM!
« Last Edit: Jun 18, 2007, 12:43 by HydroDave63 »

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #75 on: Jun 15, 2007, 05:48 »
If I wrote down there would be no reading # 4 because it is out of calibration would I get it wrong? Hey Slogo check your phone calculator because it is hard to get a 96.1 when each question would be worth 5 points if there are 20 questions, unless you got a partial credit from Marty V.

roflmao!!! oh, yeah, like i ever got dat kinda credit!  i usta git credit fer alla aw sheeters.  butt, stownsend, tanks fer pointing dat out to me, i didn't count da kweshuns, probably cause everbuddy was yakking about how hard it was wit thyme allowed.  i saw da "1 0f 51, 2 if 51" etc when eye started it, so figured der wuz 51, not twenty.  so iffen yer 20 is valid den i gots me a 90%.  btw, wan eye listed alla stuff i ain't enountered in a long time, did aye mention tests?  my bad, yer da man, karma onta ya. ;)
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raymcginnis

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #76 on: Jun 15, 2007, 07:24 »
Since the photos are taken at an angle from the instrument, not dead on, it is not clear,
and having the pics taken at an angle reinforces the concept that the tech needs to take meter parallax into consideration......-JPM!

What parallax considerations teach you is that you should read the meter dead on, just like the calibration person did, else you may write down an inaccurate number.  When you are talking about the difference between 1.9 and 1.8, that may make a difference.  I have to go with metermaid on that point.  They should make the test photos dead on, just like the calibration techs are taught to read.  They probably needed the angle to get all of the knobs into the photograph, though.  The only answer for that is to use computer graphics for the test.  That way everything is crystal clear.

All that said, if everyone who takes the test misses the same example the same way, including the old techs, hopefully that would be noticed by the test givers.  I have been to places where there were bad questions and when I pointed it out to the proctor, everyone was given credit for it.  Hopefully that has not changed.

....propheshunawl....

SloGlo,

I had my head in the computer books when I should have been watching the Simpsons.  I still have not figured that word out.  I've been praying for Google to add SloGlo to their translator page  ;)

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #77 on: Jun 15, 2007, 07:44 »
SloGlo,

I had my head in the computer books when I should have been watching the Simpsons.  I still have not figured that word out.  I've been praying for Google to add SloGlo to their translator page  ;)

propheshunawl;

pro.... pro;  phesh.... fess;  un....ion;  awl...al

butt now it looks like something descrbing a persun who knoes about altered atoms, duzzant it?  knot dat der's ennyting rong wit dat. ;)


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Tech A

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #78 on: Jun 15, 2007, 09:53 »
Well I already said it once HP Techs are stupid! You will not make more money while you are willing to work for that wage 22 hour there at columbia. You and eveyone else here complaining about techs that can not pass the meter test but you are there working next to them. Demand more money than the losers that cant pass the test and dont work for 22 hour! just say no or shut up! you guys are no better than they are when you work for peanuts! ::)
  Sounds like your at Columbia if you know the wages there.  Just get in the drywell and quit stirring the pot.
« Last Edit: Jun 15, 2007, 10:03 by Tech A »

LaFeet

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #79 on: Jun 15, 2007, 11:39 »
Can't we all just get along   (thats a quote aint it)

My Goodness...... lookie at what we are doing... we seem to all be saying the same thing.......  (SloGlo ness)   iffen youz canna reed da meter....then donna applyfor da job

metermaid

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #80 on: Jun 16, 2007, 01:08 »
Can't we all just get along   (thats a quote aint it)?

Many of these forum posts have turned into emotional debates that eventually lead off to a different subject?  This one has not.  Everyone has put their opinion in on this one with good composure.  I think that this is a great subject because of that fact.  That is why I joined in.  There is not as much dissention as you perceive.  There is actually an intelligent discussion going on about a sensitive subject and people's opinions vary on it.  I like the fact that the nuclear community can come to a website like this and express their opinion about a subject as sensitive as this and say what they think.
« Last Edit: Jun 16, 2007, 08:46 by metermaid »

illegalsmile

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #81 on: Jun 16, 2007, 08:11 »
propheshunawl;

pro.... pro;  phesh.... fess;  un....ion;  awl...al

I think he's talkin' about somebody who gets paid to do something.
He's a lot easier to understand if you're drinking.

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #82 on: Jun 16, 2007, 09:32 »
  When you are talking about the difference between 1.9 and 1.8, that may make a difference. 

Actually, I do not see any difference between 1.9 & 1.8...these things are only calibrated within 20%, so I'm not going to lose a lot of sleep over 5%...sorry...

The times I would probably worry about it is if I am close to a limit for a posting change...5 mR/hr, 100mr/hr, 1R/hr...  (...then I'll always round off high to be conservative...)

...I might also think about it if I was taking this test!  ;)   
« Last Edit: Jun 17, 2007, 11:48 by UncaBuffalo »
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Offline gammaman30

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #83 on: Jun 16, 2007, 09:50 »
  Sounds like your at Columbia if you know the wages there.  Just get in the drywell and quit stirring the pot.
You are right im here with all the losers! But next time I will be working for The Rock! for 45 and 100 +benefits . ;D
also whats up with the - karma???
And HydroDave we do need more Gammas!!!
And anybody knows who has Bartlett Euchre Record??
« Last Edit: Jun 16, 2007, 09:58 by gammaman30 »

RAD-GHOST

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #84 on: Jun 17, 2007, 05:52 »
DILLIGAF, I told you things were extremely ugly out here!

I must admit, I am astonished that a utility would develop and administer such a test.  After all, once the Technician fails, the utility has to create a way to circumvent the results!  Normally they keep testing the Technicians until they pass, or offer some form of administrative over ride!  In any case I wouldn't sweat it, this test is probably already in trash can.

RG


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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #85 on: Jun 17, 2007, 06:28 »
Your command of the English language is just astounding.
Let me guess. You are 1 of these HP Tech's?  :'(

Offline grantime

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #86 on: Jun 17, 2007, 11:40 »

I must admit, I am astonished that a utility would develop and administer such a test. 



I would bet that HP group  didn't do it because they wanted to.   All those Condition reports that get written up  during outages have to be answered.  And if they are repeated events then the more attention they get.  At some point upper management steps in and declares that we will not have any more of that sort of event.  Needless to say the actions items that come out don't always seem reasonable to the one affected by them. 
« Last Edit: Jun 17, 2007, 11:41 by grantime »
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Offline hamsamich

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #87 on: Jun 17, 2007, 12:11 »
ha ha, radghost, you da man.  most of the people on here talk about what "OUGHT to be" like it is actually happening (approaching smugness).  you just try to get the post back to reality instead of tooting your own horn about other "horrible technicians who don't know how to read a meter, oh my god."  nice. yeah, I can't believe all the other technicians can't read a meter and I am so great at it, blah blah blah without knowing exactly what was tested and under what circumstances.  karma to you if I could give it.

Tech A

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #88 on: Jun 17, 2007, 09:15 »
Taken the test twice once as susquehanna and  once at Whoops.  So I know the circumstances.  I also know the type of techs who failed it.  They didnt ask to convert anything.  At Whoops it was a Ludlum, R02, and a teletector.  Thats it  cpm, mr/hr, and R/hr.  A lot better lighting than in a cavity, no plastic covering the meter and no sweat going down your faceshield just simple see it and read it.  A  22 dollar tech should be able to pass the test.
« Last Edit: Jun 17, 2007, 09:22 by Tech A »

Offline hamsamich

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #89 on: Jun 17, 2007, 09:45 »
well, i won't be passing any judgements until I take it myself and learn that everyone else who took it, took it at the same difficulty level.

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #90 on: Jun 17, 2007, 10:44 »


My Goodness...... lookie at what we are doing... we seem to all be saying the same thing.......  (SloGlo ness)   iffen youz canna reed da meter....then donna applyfor da job
[/quote]

I've been reading this thread since it began, with wonder.  How can anyone say they can do the job if they can't use the "tools of the trade".  When I was on the plant side of the business I used a "test" that didn't focus on theory, but on practical ability.  From a practical standpoint I really don't care if "tech A" can calculate the proper amount of shielding to reduce the dose rate by a factor of X.  That is not the function of the field tech, that is the function of the Staff HP or RE.  I do care if "tech A" can  can produce the needed data "AQARA" (and maybe 15 sec looking at a video image is not "AQARA"), and I do prefer rounding up.
Kudos to Bartlett for trying to meet an imediate need when it appears "the test in question" was faulted in that it required (for the correct answer) interpolation on a linear and/or log scale.
For those of you that have the opportunity to work with LaFeet, take him up on his offer.  If you want to learn the basics, he'll teach you - If you want to learn the theory behind the basics, he'll educate you - sorry no college credits! :( ;D
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RAD-GHOST

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #91 on: Jun 18, 2007, 04:47 »
I agree with OldHP, I normally round up. 

After all, the degree of accuracy usually brings an equivalent degree of scrutiny!

Have A Great One, RG!

Tech A

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #92 on: Jun 18, 2007, 08:44 »
Im not saying the same thing as everyone else.  Im not giving kudos to Bartlett for keeping the same veteran techs who cant read a meter. Im not faulting the techs who fail the test, Im faulting the company that keeps hiring these techs.  I think its an injustice to the rest of the techs that Bartlett keeps on hiring the "breathable" techs who cant pass a simple test.   If someone said before the test at whoops there are going to be 10 senior techs with over 10 years experience that are going to fail it most everyone would of guessed 8 of the techs that would of failed it before the test was taken.   Im sure the test is part of the "great" Bartlett evaluation.  But we know how important those evals are to the recruiters trying to fill spots.   Do ya think the recruiters really care?
« Last Edit: Jun 18, 2007, 09:00 by Tech A »

Industry_event

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #93 on: Jun 18, 2007, 08:27 »
Here is some simple meter reading training.

If everything is reading 4.5-5 mrem/hr you are probably on the BATT scale.

If background seems to be zero wherever you go you are probably on the OFF scale.

Just pay attention to the scales and you will be alright ;)

RADBASTARD

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #94 on: Jun 18, 2007, 10:51 »
Oh my God, All these people who failed this and are 10+yr seniors and  defend their actions,Is like saying they arn't the smartest person in a room full of people with down syndrome. Sorry im not PC on this.

They should be knocked down to the lowest pay scale of a janitor.No offense to janitor's.

How do these people still get job's and then complain that their on the 1st layoff,because their such good techs.

Also all the people who thank bartlett for this test can stop sucking up now!
They might be the one's who failed the test.If you know how to use a meter there is no reason to thank anyone.

These are the tools of your trade come on,Hello MCFLY ANYBODY HOME!

Im sure this will get deleted,but I hope not.

« Last Edit: Jun 19, 2007, 01:43 by RadBastard »

Offline OldHP

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #95 on: Jun 19, 2007, 12:37 »
Here is some simple meter reading training.

If everything is reading 4.5-5 mrem/hr you are probably on the BATT scale.

If background seems to be zero wherever you go you are probably on the OFF scale.

Just pay attention to the scales and you will be alright ;)

Just maybe some have a problem with multiplying by 1, 2, 5, or 10? :o ;D
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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #96 on: Jun 19, 2007, 08:05 »
I'm a little disheartened by the title of this thread. I thought that fundamentally a Rad Tech evaluated radiological hazard and the meter was a tool like a hammer or saw to do this. As the goal of a carpenter is to build a house a Rad Tech evaluates and communicates radiological hazard, knowing your tools is what you learn as an apprentice. I know I'm stepping on toes but I have heard jrs told by their supposed seniors that they should just take a smear where ever they took a dose rate reading and that was all there was to it. I have found that a good technician is one who is conscientious. As a contractor with no formal training available, for the most part, I have seen many very good deconners become very good seniors because they put an effort into learning their trade and I have seen those deconners who have just done their time ( a control point makes a lousy base of experience).

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #97 on: Jun 19, 2007, 08:30 »
Oh my God, All these people who failed this and are 10+yr seniors and  defend their actions,Is like saying their the smartest person in a room full of people with down syndrome. Sorry im not PC on this.

They should be knocked down to the lowest pay scale of a janitor.No offense to janitor's.

How do these people still get job's and then complain that their on the 1st layoff,because their such good techs.

Also all the people who thank bartlett for this test can stop sucking up now!
They might be the one's who failed the test.If you know how to use a meter there is no reason to thank anyone.

These are the tools of your trade come on,Hello MCFLY ANYBODY HOME!

Im sure this will get deleted,but I hope not.


So you want to give them a raise? The janitor make more than the HP Techs here at columbia!

LaFeet

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #98 on: Jun 19, 2007, 10:02 »
Oh my God, All these people who failed this and are 10+yr seniors and  defend their actions,Is like saying their the smartest person in a room full of people with down syndrome. Sorry im not PC on this.

They should be knocked down to the lowest pay scale of a janitor.No offense to janitor's.

How do these people still get job's and then complain that their on the 1st layoff,because their such good techs.

Also all the people who thank bartlett for this test can stop sucking up now!
They might be the one's who failed the test.If you know how to use a meter there is no reason to thank anyone.

These are the tools of your trade come on,Hello MCFLY ANYBODY HOME!

Im sure this will get deleted,but I hope not.

I have to agree with you ROMO.... I hope I can count myself as one of the ones you can trust to read (and act correctly to) a meter.

Offline hamsamich

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #99 on: Jun 19, 2007, 10:54 »
I think testing is good, but all I am saying is I don't know what this particular test is and if it is fair or not, therefore i won't be throwing any stones until I see it for myself.  It seems quite a few people are getting on here and doing that without seeing the test for themselves. And for marlin's post, there are going to be bad technicians in ANY field, that's just a given, although I wish this weren't the case.  The training/testing is supposed to weed these people out. For an interesting perspective on this (licensing/gatekeeping in general), see February issue of scientific american - page 28 "license to work".  Among interesting points:

-The Supreme Court gave the states the power to license in 1889.
-Today there are 800 occupations that require a license in one or more states, but only 50 occupations are licensed in ALL states.
-A study done from 1960 to 1987 found that increased licensing restrictions by state dentistry boards did NOT lead to improved dental care, but it did boost income for dentists.
-California has the highest percentage of lic. prof. at 30% while mississippi lic. only 6% of workers.
-historical statistics in general point to licensing being effective as a tool and not usually a gatekeeper (inhibiting job entry unfairly), this is good!

see the article for other interesting points and graphs.

RADBASTARD

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #100 on: Jun 19, 2007, 01:39 »
Hey HAM,I was told they show you slides of an ro2,Teletector,and a ro2a.Then they show you what scale it is on and the meter reading.
Then you put down what it reads.
Thats sorry if thats the case.
If I was told this incorrectly please correct me,MY BAD IF IM WRONG.


I mean there are some SR HP'S out there who i've seen couldn't get a job as a spell checker in an M & M FACTORY ,and still seem to get jobs
« Last Edit: Jun 19, 2007, 01:40 by RadBastard »

Chimera

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #101 on: Jun 19, 2007, 02:21 »
I went to the Bartlett site and looked at the PowerPoint example they have.  Depending on how the test choices are given, everyone should pass this test.  I added that qualifier since I read the scale different by one unit in three of the examples (parallax error?).

How serious is this problem in the industry?  Are there really people who consistently can't read a meter?  I'll allow for the occasional misreading (i.e., wrong scale, lack of light, in a hurry) or perceived "rounding errors" (as long as it's not a shipping survey).  I just find it hard to believe that Techs (whether Junior or Senior) don't have a clue when it comes to reading a meter and/or are too stupid to ask for help when confronted by an unfamiliar instrument.

alphadude

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #102 on: Jun 19, 2007, 03:24 »
not to mention the 10% fudge factor allow during calibration-- geotropism has arisen again -YIKES

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #103 on: Jun 19, 2007, 09:13 »
I think testing is good, but all I am saying is I don't know what this particular test is and if it is fair or not, therefore i won't be throwing any stones until I see it for myself. 

go to the site, take the test, bend over, pick up stones, pick one, and throw. 
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IPREGEN

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #104 on: Jun 20, 2007, 09:04 »
Did the test involve documenting the readings in something besides a g@#*$m logbook?

stownsend

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #105 on: Jun 20, 2007, 09:49 »
Don't take this as defending anyone, as I'm not. I also don't work for Big Blue. Let's put another spin on this. Don't take the test at your computer but put it up on the screen thirty feet away. The only time I ever heard anyone reading a ro20( ro2A at the time) from thirty feet was Art Stockwell's oral board in the cavity using a pair of binoculars.

OUCH stop throwing stone's at me.It's my opinion and I'm sticking to it until I see the actual test myself. Then I'll throw stone's with the rest of you.

Tech A

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #106 on: Jun 20, 2007, 11:17 »
Now I know why IM an HP its because all those years in school I couldnt figure out all those slide shows in school.  I wish I had all these excuses when I was in elementary school.   We all could of been doctors if it wasnt for those tricky slides and overhead projections.

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #107 on: Jun 20, 2007, 12:26 »
Don't take the test at your computer but put it up on the screen thirty feet away.

I did that for my class of junior techs... they all passed without any problems. IMHO there is no excuse for having trouble with this test. Then again, I went to school when there were actual consequences for not passing. Maybe if I had been in the 'don't fail anyone it might bruise their tender ego' era I might think differently... but I hope not.
« Last Edit: Jun 20, 2007, 01:23 by RDTroja »
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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #108 on: Jun 20, 2007, 01:07 »
All right I have only been in this business a year and a half and I am only a lowly junior hp, and so if I can pass this test anyone should be able to.  Trying to be fair, when I was given the test if the answer was 1.8 and I said 1.9, I was given credit because some of those meters were at an angle.  So if people are not getting credit for being close to the correct answer then that is the flaw of the test administrator.  However take away the ones that I was not dead on and I still would've gotten an 80% which is passing most places you go.  So for those of you that have been in the business for ten+ years, call yourself a senior hp, and really cannot read a meter....... well lets just say i aint gonna take my car to a mechanic that don't know how to turn a wrench.

P.S. There were a couple meters on that test I had never seen before.
« Last Edit: Jun 20, 2007, 01:12 by Turbo »

stownsend

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #109 on: Jun 20, 2007, 01:16 »
I have no idea who or who didn't pass, I just wanted to look at all possibilities of why before making a judgement. As someone said you may be surprised who failed. My thoughts were "why". IMHO there have been techs in this field who should not have been there to start with. We've all seen the one's who could ace any test but you could only put him at the RBA to frisk tools and watch the PCM's,same pay as all of the rest of us. Then again It's not up to me, it's up to the utilities to decide. In their defense though I've seen where the names had to be removed from the resumes because of the litigious world we live in. Someone didn't get in to the outage and they write home "send lawyers, money and guns".

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #110 on: Jun 20, 2007, 03:17 »
well, i won't be passing any judgements until I take it myself

I too feel as Ham does on this topic. That said if the test is anything like the Bartlett power point I cannot understand how anyone could fail this.
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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #111 on: Jun 20, 2007, 07:29 »
I have no idea who or who didn't pass, I just wanted to look at all possibilities of why before making a judgement.

yeah, like when eye yam ona rode wit sumbuddy woo kant drive, i look at alla possibilities two.... like ware i kin pass 'n leaf 'em ina dust.  unfortunately, eye kan't due dat wit non-meter reeding seenures now kin i?
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RADBASTARD

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #112 on: Jun 20, 2007, 10:02 »
I think they should all get on the short bus and drive to the unemployment office to ask for some job training in another field.

In the words of carlos mencia they must be a bunch of DEE DEE DEE'S

It's stinking meter for god sake,it's your tool of your trade,come on

What's next the disk smear test or the prober way to take an LAS with a masselin mop.

we a going to hell in a hand basket!
« Last Edit: Jun 20, 2007, 10:03 by RadBastard »

LaFeet

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #113 on: Jun 20, 2007, 10:04 »
I think they should all get on the short bus and drive to the unemployment office to ask for some job training in another field.

In the words of carlos mencia they must be a bunch of DEE DEE DEE'S

I a stinking meter for god sake,it's your tool of your trade,come on

What's next the disk smear test or the prober way to take an LAS with a masselin mop.

we a going to hell in a hand basket!

Naw  we survived Calvert during the first Thimble job... everything else is gravy from here on out

stownsend

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #114 on: Jun 21, 2007, 08:46 »
Sitting in training at 2 oclock in the morning with 50 senior HP's and Roger Knight signing off our JPM's.Thirty days of training prior to an outage. "If everyone knows what full pc's are put a check in the yes box, if you don't know what full pc's are put a check in the no box". This went on for an hour. Let's bring back Beaver Valley training and Roger to train us.  NOT. Then we can  have Bartlett send us home on Dec 23 and bring us back on Jan 2 so they don't have to pay us holiday pay.Some one stated to test us on job performance.I quess they never took an oral board.

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #115 on: Jun 21, 2007, 11:58 »
agree with p-dub

illegalsmile

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #116 on: Jun 27, 2007, 08:14 »
But next time I will be working for The Rock! for 45 and 100 +benefits .
so what contracts does Rock have? It sounds great, but I don't see anyone paying that much to get techs to a job.

Asa1

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #117 on: Jun 27, 2007, 05:06 »
We (the house techs at Palisades) just had to take the "test" during our most recent continuing training cycle. All I've got to say is WOW.

Offline TENN-1

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #118 on: Jun 27, 2007, 08:46 »
You mean "Wow" x (0.1) or "Wow" x (10)?
Things come to those who wait, but usually it's stuff left over from those who hustle!

Asa1

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #119 on: Jun 27, 2007, 11:11 »
Off scale high.

Offline btkeele

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #120 on: Jun 28, 2007, 05:18 »
Off scale high???
 sounds like a lot of the particles we used to find there!

Oh no ASA, when we doing the Tip run.....I'm hungary.....
 What do you figure your favorite tech scored on this test?  20% unless she took it at BV.

We all took it here at Columbia, didn't think it was a big deal......


klsas

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #121 on: Jun 28, 2007, 09:21 »
Asa - off scale high??

Maybe that is why we were digging contam out of the conrete outside my last time there

Keith

ramdog_1

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #122 on: Jun 28, 2007, 01:25 »
humm I took this silly test and it was no worrys at all and I have been an HP in 10 years so whats the problem ?  some times you got to slow down and read the thing to know what you are looking at .
anyways good luck to all.

RADBASTARD

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #123 on: Jun 28, 2007, 01:59 »
well im in oahu now trying to find an hp job so i can readem here.god this place beat the real hp world on the mainland

Asa1

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #124 on: Jun 28, 2007, 10:17 »
Off scale high referred to how amazed I was. And Barry, as soon as you'll come back, we'll do that TIP run.
Keith, we need some good closers this outage.....Interested?


Asa1

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #125 on: Jun 30, 2007, 04:31 »
Were you amazed how someone could fail the test or did some of Pali's best fail the test?

Asa1

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #126 on: Jul 01, 2007, 10:06 »
Cammy,
No one at the Sades dropped the test. I was amazed that anyone could..........When are you coming up Cammy?....We are as pitiful as ever.......Pitiful.


Asa

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #127 on: Jul 03, 2007, 01:44 »
This whole thing may have gotten off track!  I have not seen the test, but there are a few things to think about:
If you can't read a speedometer (or in certain circumstances a tachometer) you really shouldn't be driving!
If you can't read a micrometer, don't try to do precision machining!
If you can't read a tape measure (or cut a straight line) don't become a carpenter!
If you are reading a dose rate meter (on the rem/rad scale) take the high end of the fluctuation and get out!
If you are reading a meter on the microR/microrem scale, call it the average of the fluctuation
Try taking five instruments, of the same type, calibrated by the same person - place the detector in the same (exactly) spot - and you probably won't get the same exact reading on any two.
Come within 10% (preferrably +10%) an I'll call it good, especially on the high end!
 ;D
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shovelheadred

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #128 on: Jul 04, 2007, 02:48 »
..as I scanned through the forum..I thought this blog was for reading an outside meter and was poking fun,,,that is before I opened it and read what Eric said,,,( no, Spankee,,I am still sober and clean),,,I just dont read every blog...but after reading it,,I like what RDTroja said in the first couple of his reply's....and this training is nothing new...I had it in the Navy, and also as a House Tech at Farley...they had an 8 week training class and this was part of it,,they explained how each meter worked..and how to read them...now that was in the 80's and we didnt have but a few meters,,,this was before or during the time the RSO-50/5 was introduced,,and time of the multi-probed instruments had not come about..we are talking basic ....but we had problems with technicians being on the wrong scale...the late/great Perry Farnsworth going down in the transfer canal, to survey the transfer system, because  it was the end of the year and he was one of the few with any dose left...and he the Manager,,,,the technician B had gotten an overexposure, because technician A had been on the wrong scale during the initial survey ( this was before the time of remote dosimetry, we were using pocket dosimeters)..and I have been at sites that test for this during the initial RP training,,,Limerick did this training....or excersize....I didn't read the entire blog, so if I covered what everybody else said,,or if the matter has gotten comepletely off subject,,feel free to scold me or delete this entry....red

Rvrpaddlr

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #129 on: Jul 09, 2007, 04:03 »
Well. here goes.
I have been reading this thread for some time, biting my tongue.
I created the Meter Reading test.
Those that have been to Susquehanna will know who I am.
2007 was the third year we have done this test.  I have modified it every year, taking into account new meters and ones we have gotten rid of.
I have increased the time to 30 seconds a slide, and I have reduced the number of meters for Juniors.
We still require a 90% for both juniors and seniors.  20 slides for seniors and 10 slides for juniors.
Roughly 20% do not make it on ther fist attempt.
We still 7 seniors that could not pass the test on the 4th attempt.. 
All of the juniors made it through after the second try. 
What does that say?
I have read all of the comments about unfamiliar meters, etc, but in the world of RPT or CDSV skill sets, which most plants use, a meter is a meter is a meter.
We supplied Bartlett with a copy of the test so techs could use, it is on their website.
I have given the test to Seabrook, Grand Gulf, River Bend, Beaver Valley and others I cannot remember.
We also generated an INPO OE based on our findings.
And yes, I am working on new tests for our Spring outage.  Have to, I have given mine out to too many other plants.
So, practice reading those meter!

alphadude

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #130 on: Jul 09, 2007, 05:27 »
Why isn't a fundamental gauge reading class presented? When I was in ChemEng. the first semester we were in unit ops we were taught to read multiple types of gauges and dials. This is the foundation for reading any type of indication device... what if they have to read magnehelics (hepa units) or level indicator (H3 cold traps) or flow meters (containment verification) or a compass rose (emergency response)? Could it be that the class is too task oriented and not providing a foundation to build on? (monkey see monkey do?) Were they taught "significant numbers" or interpolation? High failure rates indicates poor training-hope you are not are getting the techs from the short bus! 

Rvrpaddlr

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #131 on: Jul 09, 2007, 07:13 »
We are fortunate to have a very high returnee rate.
We were unfortunate to have someone make an error that started all of this.
When we bring in technicians for an outage, the are supposed to know how to read a meter.
We only evaluate their ability.
If they cannot, we remediate and try it again.
The remediation is a fundamental "gauge reading" course.
I have had non-HP QA evaluators sit in the test and ace it.
Results at Susquehanna are being duplicated at other utilities.
It is an industry problem, hence our INPO OE.

Some other comments.
I read where the meter photos should be taken head on.  I tried, but often you then cannot see the scale switch.
Glare on the meter face is another issue, so photos were taken slightly to one side or the other.
We only administer to 6 to 8 people at a time, so they can sit close or far away from the screen.
We allow a tolerance of one scale division for the answer.
No need to convert to dpm, just counts per minute or mR/hr.

Have a great day!


ramdog_1

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #132 on: Jul 09, 2007, 07:28 »
Look it all comes down to this sit at the desk tell the JR HP to go get the readings, have the decon person got get the smears and pull the A/S when they are done had to the JR and tell him to take it to the count room. let him write up the survey and sign it for them . and tell a few sea storys. They start with this is a No Sh--er lol.
if you do not know how to read the meter you better get help.

LaFeet

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #133 on: Jul 10, 2007, 12:55 »
Why isn't a fundamental gauge reading class presented? When I was in ChemEng. the first semester we were in unit ops we were taught to read multiple types of gauges and dials. This is the foundation for reading any type of indication device... what if they have to read magnehelics (hepa units) or level indicator (H3 cold traps) or flow meters (containment verification) or a compass rose (emergency response)? Could it be that the class is too task oriented and not providing a foundation to build on? (monkey see monkey do?) Were they taught "significant numbers" or interpolation? High failure rates indicates poor training-hope you are not are getting the techs from the short bus! 

Are we hiring people that can read gas guages..... speedometers......oil pressure guages??????  Duh  Yeah....

The same BASIC training is required for your drivers license as for being able to read a radiac..... come on!

I am ALL FOR helping anyone learning and advancing.  Those that have worked with me will support my statement.  I know many that may think I may be tooooooo Arrogant.  But I know what can do or what I can learn and support.   I am not out there trying to bolster my eval.... my resume.  Hire me for what I can do and support the job...... if I have potential   use me.


This has gotten way out of hand.     those that can   DO    those that cant   shoud not apply

metermaid

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #134 on: Jul 10, 2007, 10:34 »
I read where the meter photos should be taken head on.  I tried, but often you then cannot see the scale switch.
Glare on the meter face is another issue, so photos were taken slightly to one side or the other.

Take the photos landscape instead of portrait.  If necessary, take the handle off to allow a better view of the meter face and the scale.  Use a corporate photographer who can take the flash off of the top of the camera to eliminate the glare.  Better yet, send the photos to corporate graphics who can accurately draw the meters in Adobe Illustrator or similar software.

The bottom line is take away all of the excuses from the unqualified technicians.

RADBASTARD

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #135 on: Jul 10, 2007, 01:00 »
Bottom line if your a sr hp and you can't read a meter, your an IDIOT and have no business being in this business.

Go get a hair net and a name tag and go work for mcdonalds if you can read the meter  on the timer of the fryer.

Offline MrHazmat

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #136 on: Jul 10, 2007, 03:14 »
Bottom line if your a sr hp and you can't read a meter, your an IDIOT and have no business being in this business.

Go get a hair net and a name tag and go work for mcdonalds if you can read the meter  on the timer of the fryer.

The timers at McDonalds have alarms to guard against people who can't read. :P
Keeping our highways safe for over 40 years

Tech A

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #137 on: Jul 10, 2007, 05:51 »
McDonalds has standards when they hire people, the companies that keep hiring these techs over and over doesnt.  Can you imagine McDonalds keeping a person who cant run a register or hitting the trash cans with the garbage?   I thank Rvrpaddlr for responding with the information, he made the test as fair as possible, but there will be people who make excuses for anything they cant pass and there are some people who havent even taken the test who are already making excuses for themselves and others.  Bottom line a tech who fails this test Four Freaking times should not be hire by the companies that care about their reputation and the reputation of co workers.
« Last Edit: Jul 10, 2007, 06:21 by Tech A »

Tech A

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #138 on: Jul 10, 2007, 06:18 »
I think that Bartlett is doing us all a service, not everyone is a speed demon and its a good idea for everyone to brush up or hone their skills. Doctors and sports figures are two groups of people I can think of that do this routinely. And I don't blame Bartlett or not Barlett alone for the shortage of techs, look towards the utilities and their inability to schedule the outages in a way in which their would be an abundance of good techs.
Bartlett is not doing a service for all of us in this case.  They are doing a service for the techs who cant read a meter and they are doing a service for themselves to keep these techs employed so they can fill slots.
« Last Edit: Jul 10, 2007, 06:24 by Tech A »

klsas

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #139 on: Jul 10, 2007, 07:09 »
It seems like since we started using the NUF only every 4 to 5 years, standards have really dropped. A lot of the older techs that went through testing at every site are now either house doing continuing training or working DOE or out of the nuke field altogether. It may be time to think about testing (including meters) on an annual, or more frequently, schedule. Day 1 on site should be qualifying tests, even before FFD. You shouldn't get paid until you prove your qualified. Why waste time in-processing when you can't do your job safely or protect others. It was a pain to have to qualify at every site, every time, but standards were much higher not that many years ago. The older techs in a pre-FFD society were able to qualify at every site, every time. That shows you how knowledgeable the techs were back in the 70's and 80's. I remember constant training in the Navy and then having to stay on top of things when I started commercial in 92. Back then you always saw a Gollnick or Moe in the break room. I can't recall seeing one of those two books in the break room now in several years. This goes back to my first sentence. Just my additional two cents.

Keith

ramdog_1

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #140 on: Jul 10, 2007, 07:37 »
Thats it they need more F.O.B.'s !
I do agree with  a  lot of you. if you are a SR HP you need to be able to read the meter and tell me if I am in a 5R Field or 5mr/hr Field. and how CPM the smears are reading.
I worked with a lot of good techs back in the old days most of them are gone now.
I new a lot guys who could tell you how hot a smear was by hearing the meter.
A lot of the older guys have done the one tech per job ( VA power) and stay with them untill the job was over. and there been a few us at IP 2 down in the basement. and yes we tested at every site.
I was out at Diablo and the showed a gal an RO2A and she did not know what it was for. ( long time ago)  this is when they hired you from your resume. No real HP test them you had to show them you could do your job .
 Take your time and learn your job good luck all.

RADBASTARD

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #141 on: Jul 12, 2007, 02:19 »
I can't wait for the masselin and disk smear test!

alphadude

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #142 on: Jul 12, 2007, 09:29 »
don't even test on scan rate and frisking for contamination- very high failure rate with Sr RATs on that one.. (90%) but when we do it- (scan rates) it is an evaluation- not a test- and we make them better when its all said and done... isn't this the purpose to make things better.. and evaluate...???

the initial findings should only be a starting point not a debate on "seniors worth their salt" and anyone can have a bad day.. this meter reading is just another tool to evaluate and improve.. dont make it into a cresenthammer.

duke99301

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #143 on: Jul 12, 2007, 10:22 »
Years ago I was doing a pipe replacement over seas and I was counting smears with my Ro2A.  The local House tech there thought I was not in his ball park with what he wanted .
Will he had a multi Channel Analyzer he was very proud of and wanted to show me he could count my smears as fast as I could. I told him we did not want to put these smears in his machine but he would not listen to me.  it was funny how the 1st printout came back ??????????????.  needless to say I left him to decon his own machine .
oh will he had a degree.

Offline Limited Quanity

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #144 on: Jul 12, 2007, 05:52 »
You know it really is great when you have folks that are on top of the game.  But if you gauge the quality of a tech, Jr or Sr, on whether they read a meter consistently, everytime, well,,,.   I remember once having to resurvey inside the bio shield at Sequoyah because the previous survey for the our shift was <2 mrem/hr.  Cold/hot legs, PRT, RHR suction line, everywhere.  They had a copy of the last days routine to go by and the whole nine yards.  They could read the meter just fine and it would have even been better if the batteries hadn't been knocked loose before they started the survey.  It just didn't register in the meter between their ears I guess.  I always like to get a side of common sense to go along with that plate of "survey says" at my control point.  My 2 cents but it might save a dime.
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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #145 on: Jul 15, 2007, 08:44 »

Glare on the meter face is another issue, so photos were taken slightly to one side or the other.


iffen yer using film, use a 35mm camera with a detachable flash unit n hold it off to the side 'n bounce da light to eliminate da glare.  iffen ya gots digital, run it through a photo program before power point.  even basic programs have an "enhancement" option to click on 'n dis will take out da glare.

good test.  here's hoping ya wipe out a buncha non meter reading meter readers.    ;D
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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #146 on: Jul 16, 2007, 11:08 »
you use a polarizer to get rid of glare.

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #147 on: Jul 23, 2007, 11:47 »
Hi to all - 1st post.  I came across this site looking for information on the POSS test.  I'm going to be applying at a gas-turbine plant, but have always had a deep interest in nukes so I'm reading posts trying to learn some new things and figure out what all the acronyms stand for.  Having lived a couple of miles from Braidwood for close to 20 years, I've got to say I'm absolutely astounded that it's possible some of the folks working there couldn't read those meters.  I've never seen any of those instruments before yet only misread 1 meter and took an avg. of 7 seconds per unit. Due to most of the photo's being taken from an angle, the parallax error was pretty large on some of them which doesn't help my confidence a whole lot! Well I should get back to conversion practice.  Nice to meet you all and many thanks for the info I've learned about the POSS.

Marc - 

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #148 on: Jul 25, 2007, 08:46 »
you use a polarizer to get rid of glare.

wail, yeah.  iffen ya gotz won a doze.  butt iffen yinz control yer photons, ya kin git goot kwalitee cheep.
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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #149 on: Jul 25, 2007, 09:29 »
Bunya,sounds like you would make a better tech than some of those non-meter reading one's we have out there?
Hi to all - 1st post.  I came across this site looking for information on the POSS test.  I'm going to be applying at a gas-turbine plant, but have always had a deep interest in nukes so I'm reading posts trying to learn some new things and figure out what all the acronyms stand for.  Having lived a couple of miles from Braidwood for close to 20 years, I've got to say I'm absolutely astounded that it's possible some of the folks working there couldn't read those meters.  I've never seen any of those instruments before yet only misread 1 meter and took an avg. of 7 seconds per unit. Due to most of the photo's being taken from an angle, the parallax error was pretty large on some of them which doesn't help my confidence a whole lot! Well I should get back to conversion practice.  Nice to meet you all and many thanks for the info I've learned about the POSS.

Marc - 

ALARA LOU

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #150 on: Aug 09, 2007, 08:57 »
Help, I went to the Bartlett home page but the link would not work to get me to the “survey meter reading” practice exercise.

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #151 on: Aug 09, 2007, 09:28 »
I had no problm accessing it on the Bartlett page.

I put a copy of it on NukeWorker, which might work better for you.  The file is large, about 2 MB.

Here is a link:

http://www.nukeworker.com/study/hp/meter_test.pdf
« Last Edit: Aug 09, 2007, 09:29 by Rennhack »

ALARA LOU

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #152 on: Aug 10, 2007, 03:43 »
I was able to access it today on the Bartlett page using another computer.
But I thank you for the help & quick response.

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #153 on: Aug 10, 2007, 08:03 »
You know it really is great when you have folks that are on top of the game.  But if you gauge the quality of a tech, Jr or Sr, on whether they read a meter consistently, everytime, well,,,.   I remember once having to resurvey inside the bio shield at Sequoyah because the previous survey for the our shift was <2 mrem/hr.  Cold/hot legs, PRT, RHR suction line, everywhere.  They had a copy of the last days routine to go by and the whole nine yards.  They could read the meter just fine and it would have even been better if the batteries hadn't been knocked loose before they started the survey.  It just didn't register in the meter between their ears I guess.  I always like to get a side of common sense to go along with that plate of "survey says" at my control point.  My 2 cents but it might save a dime.

AMEN
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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #154 on: Aug 22, 2007, 09:11 »
See there?!?!  It proves my point.  She screwed up reading the meter; but far worse than that - she AND the Sr. tech who reviewed the survey failed to have a clue about what the readings were supposed to be.  As a junior tech, she should have been expected to make just such an error.  Although I must point out that Junior techs no longer do things like containment surveys.  Therefore they become senior techs without any real experience. 
This is where the problem lies!!  Reading a meter incorrectly is no problem unless you don't understand that there is something wrong with that incorrect reading.  If she or her supervisor couldn't recognize that 100-120 mR/hr everywhere was an anomaly, then it doesn't matter if she could read the meter right.  Let's look at the hypothetical:  What if, as you correctly assumed, those readings were real?  What if she'd had the meter on the right scale?  Shouldn't something have been done about that BEFORE the next shift came in and caught the error?   What prevented that verification from being done the instant that the survey was reviewed by supervision? 
We're giving Jr. HP's a couple of years experience in dose-rating trash and guarding IPM's and then turn them loose on High Rad job coverage as if all those trash runs had prepared them for that.  Giving everybody a quiz on looking at meter faces is simply NOT the cure - or even an accurate diagnostic tool - for this lack of experience and understanding.
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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #155 on: Aug 22, 2007, 10:27 »
Hold on, Troy, no one ever said this 'test' was a reliable measure of a good tech. It is, however, a reliable indicator of a potential major problem. Every tech I know has been on the wrong scale at one time or another... the good ones recognize it and the bad (or at least inexperienced) ones don't. When a junior does it, that is a learning opportunity. When a senior does it and does not recognize it (or does not recognize the junior's error) *that* is a major problem. Being on the wrong scale is easy... recognizing that dose rates are off by a factor of 10 should also be easy.

The issue is not what happens temporarily in the field under a little pressure. This is a classroom test that checks the technician's ability to perform a basic job function. Performing that basic function is only one very small part of the whole job, but without the base knowledge, the rest of the job falls apart. If someone has so much 'test anxiety' or so little faith in his/her abilities that they fail this test, I think that calls into question their ability to do their job properly.

Just as an aside, I have worked with quite a few juniors that are getting real field experience. Juniors still do surveys in some places. Like anything else, some are given more opportunities than others, but some turn down the chance to do field work because they are more comfortable at a control point. Those people should remain there for the rest of their careers as lifetime juniors. I have recently taught a class of junior techs and am getting ready for some pre-outage junior training for contractors. The opportunities exist, but are not nearly as available as they should be.
« Last Edit: Aug 22, 2007, 10:29 by RDTroja »
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Offline hamsamich

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #156 on: Aug 22, 2007, 10:40 »
I agree with Troja.  While not a good way to test a tech and assign them a level of competency, like many of the people in this thread are doing, you could use the test as a tool and then find out why if somebody really trashed it.  Sort of like IQ tests were meant to be used, but not how they are used. The problem is many tools get misused, like the IQ test, but if used correctly I could see the value in a test like this as something like a QC hold point.

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #157 on: Aug 22, 2007, 10:52 »
Hey!  Give the test!  I don't have a problem with giving this test to techs.  I have a problem with the very high probability that it will be used as proof of something.  It might help you discover a problem, but it might not.  As long as the test is used as a broad screen, I have no problem with it.  I just believe that it will certainly be misused.
There is training, and there is documentation of training.  All too often the two are not related.
CBT's are another of my most hated things.  Both are snapshots of a moment in time.  Somebody manages to get 8 of 10 right ONCE out of numerous tries, and the whole nuclear industry declares that person qualified.  In the past year, I have witnessed major errors by "trained" individuals - whose training consisted of sitting in front of a video screen and picking multiple-choice answers.
Nobody wants to spend the time (translate that to $$$money$$) to train people properly.  Every nuke plant and DOE site wants to hire prople who already have the training documented in their records.  When they have to gauge that training for themselves, they frequently opt for the cheapest method.
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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #158 on: Aug 22, 2007, 11:07 »
The only thing this test can be *proof* of is an inability, not a talent. Will it be misused? Of course it will. Is the NUF misused? I would place money on it.

As for the training, a lot of what you say is true, but I am currently participating in something  better than that. There is actually training (classroom style, with instructor, lesson plan, exam and documentation) being given here for juniors, house and contractors. I would ceratainly like to see more of it, but at least there is some. Yes, the seniors are supposed to show up qualified, and no, some of them are not adequately so. The tools available to screen them out before they hit the RCA are not adequate, largely due to a lack of time. Hopefully they will be identified and maybe then something can be done (at least at the site where the identification takes place.) We are not planning to use this 'test' to screen people... I just hope we don't get any of the seniors that can't pass it.

As far as opting for the cheapest choice... imagine my surprise.
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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #159 on: Aug 22, 2007, 11:09 »
Test them all and flunk them out if they can not pass. No excuse for this.
It is sad when you have a 3.1 sr who can not tell you the dif. between an RO2 and RO2A.
I can see how things have changed in the old days a tech spent time out with the crews today most sit at a control point. true to fact wehn you came to a site you did quals on items as will.
you used to get a lot of hands on training back in the 80s.
when in doubt send out the JR. HP.
« Last Edit: Aug 22, 2007, 11:17 by ramdog_1 »

alphadude

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #160 on: Aug 23, 2007, 12:07 »
sounds like a lot of programatic failures going on that lead to the human error. this may be a situation where u got to blame the game and not the players. if someone thinks they are in a 100-200mr field what are they suppose to do no matter what? read their dosimetry on a frequent basis, even though they are HPs, you still get verification of dose.  It is everyones responsibility to immediately correct these situations if you see them in the field-failure to do so .. well u know the story.  too much sniveling goin on... and a whole lot of finger pointing.. if you see programatic failures such as this-report them to the corrective actions people- that will drive the situation to improvement. someone cant read a meter- i would say that is a condition adverse to quality- DID YOU REPORT IT???

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #161 on: Aug 23, 2007, 01:04 »
I was the first person at the contaiment entrance and was required to brief refuel personnel etc. When I saw the survey I called my house supervisor for my area and dressed out to verify the dose rates. When the dose rates were off by a factor of 10, I followed up with a correct survey and called out to allow people in to go to work.Note most times the containment was empty at 0600 so there was no turn over.

Offline SloGlo

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #162 on: Aug 23, 2007, 10:27 »
iffen yinz can't reed a meter, whatcha gonna dew, count da clicks?  i don't care where ya work as a hp tech.  iffen ya can't read da meter, don't work around me!
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Offline PWHoppe

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #163 on: Aug 24, 2007, 07:52 »
iffen ya can't read da meter, don't work around me!

Ditto ;)
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Offline Limited Quanity

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #164 on: Aug 24, 2007, 10:17 »
iffen yinz can't reed a meter, whatcha gonna dew, count da clicks?  i don't care where ya work as a hp tech.  iffen ya can't read da meter, don't work around me!

If you can read the meter and you think it's just a lovely accessory in your hand to your c-zone fashion ware,,,.  If you don't have a clue what to do, just stay in the truck.
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Offline hamsamich

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #165 on: Aug 24, 2007, 10:18 »
exactly

Offline SloGlo

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #166 on: Aug 24, 2007, 02:32 »
If you can read the meter and you think it's just a lovely accessory in your hand to your c-zone fashion ware,,,.  If you don't have a clue what to do, just stay in the truck.

oh hail know!  it ain't noe fashun axesserie!  butt da ro2(a) makes a fine pillow.
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Offline Limited Quanity

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #167 on: Aug 25, 2007, 06:24 »
oh hail know!  it ain't noe fashun axesserie!  butt da ro2(a) makes a fine pillow.

Don't forget to put your plastic bag pillow case around your pillow too.  I wonder if they still teach that in meter reading training 101?   :)
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Offline SloGlo

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #168 on: Aug 25, 2007, 07:58 »
Don't forget to put your plastic bag pillow case around your pillow too.  I wonder if they still teach that in meter reading training 101?   :)

mebbe dat's why sum sr hp kant reed a meter..... dey bin bagging dem in yellow four sew long, 'n nebber look at da face.
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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #169 on: Aug 25, 2007, 10:33 »
Stories on mistakes being made and the heroic tales of recognizing the mistakes are both irrelevant to this discussion in my opinion. Mistakes will be made by everyone, thats a fact. If it makes you feel good about yourself to point out mistakes others have made in the course of doing their job, knock yourself out.

This issue is about demonstrating your implied qualifications in a classroom setting. Its about a screening tool thats no different than any other form of entrance exam. In fact its no different than any other certification. Does getting a teaching degree make you a good teacher. I think we all know the answer to that. But do you want your kids being taught by someone who hasnt demonstrated the basic necessities of teaching? More so, do you want to pay them? No written or practical exam we could ever come up with is gonna be able to predict how well someone applies that knowledge in real time.

This test is nothing more than a filter. It attempts to determine if you can do what your resume says you can. It serves to justify paying someone for a service. If you can't demonstrate that ability you don't get a pass. I'd love to be called a CHP, I'd love even more to be paid as one. Think they'll let me in if I can only pass Part 1? 

WTF!!
« Last Edit: Aug 25, 2007, 11:16 by Laning »
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B.PRESGROVE

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #170 on: Aug 28, 2007, 08:43 »
 8)  Good Point.

illegalsmile

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #171 on: Aug 29, 2007, 05:46 »
Proficiency with the instruments used to be just the beginning of the 'qualification' process when you came into a new plant. It was frequently followed by an oral board where you got to deal with "what would you do...?" and "what if...?"
I believe the triad of the written theory exam (NUF), the Instrument Proficiency Eval and the Oral Board did a pretty good job of indicating a potential tech's ability to do the job.
These very, IMHO, useful tools in evaluating a potential tech have fallen by the wayside as plants compete with each other to see how close to the scheduled shut down date they can bring us in.


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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #172 on: Oct 17, 2007, 02:46 »
I finally had a chance to take this test at a site...no problems, but I like tests. 

As a group, we (all 15-year to 40-year seniors) scored only 81%...OUCH!  :(




and, they were giving us 60 seconds per slide, so time was no excuse...
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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #173 on: Oct 19, 2007, 09:40 »
mebbe dat's why sum sr hp kant reed a meter..... de
y bin bagging dem in yellow four sew long, 'n nebber look at da face.

They have faces???? 

justatech

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #174 on: Oct 20, 2007, 03:57 »
They have faces???? 

I couldn't qoute everyone here but I will say this - joke all you want......................... .
I know of a few sites that would like to cut out Decon / Jr Techs.........what they want to do is hire the labor force out of the local union hall - train them to be a Jr Tech / Decon.............for just their ourtage that may come around every year or so......

Is is cheaper to hire them...............NO...... Bartlett is cheaper...................... .with experienced seasonal workers........I can hear it now.............."Hey you labor person after you are done carrying the buckets and scaffold for the carpenters can you decon these areas and all of these surveys need to be completed - HRA - yeah well you had one week of training to be a Jr Rp Tech - you can handle it................

Do you really think I am going to send any work group into a work area surveyed by a labor/decon/jr rp one week training and let them loose.......................H ELL NO.... I will rely on the seasoned JR RP techs that will spend time on their education to make it to SR RP - not a local out of the hall that thinks they can do all of it to last longer on the job - and have no intention of pursuing this career path becasue their union hall pays them more per hour than Bartlett plus all the bennies..................

So I want you to think about this - train the Bartlett Decon / JR RP techs on instruments - ones that really want to continue on because they enjoy this field.......................o r would you prefer to train the ones that really do not give a XXXX - it's just another tag on to their job for this outage only.........think about it .........how much time do you really want to explain when you need it yesterday..................

I know this is off base from the jokes about meter training - I remember when I was a brand new JR tech..............I had to work on this.....................for some reason the frisker was my problem...........not the ion chambers or anything else..........maybe it was flipping back in forth - ccpm to dpm - depending upon if it was a personal contamination or a smear for a survey..............simple things like that..............

Thank you Eric for posting this presentation for all of us to learn and teach by. I have already helped a few new Deconners that wanted to move up in the ranks. We need more power point presentations - perhaps if you can get some from facilities prior to an outage as to what they plan on doing in accordance with their procedures - that would help....................if someone is not going to that outage - it's just an informational thing - but if they were and could review for common knowledge participation purposes..................... .....okay maybe I should have been a teacher  ;D
« Last Edit: Oct 20, 2007, 04:00 by justatech »

LaFeet

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #175 on: Oct 20, 2007, 09:32 »
I couldn't qoute everyone here but I will say this - joke all you want......................... .
I know of a few sites that would like to cut out Decon / Jr Techs.........what they want to do is hire the labor force out of the local union hall - train them to be a Jr Tech / Decon.............for just their ourtage that may come around every year or so......

Is is cheaper to hire them...............NO...... Bartlett is cheaper...................... .with experienced seasonal workers........I can hear it now.............."Hey you labor person after you are done carrying the buckets and scaffold for the carpenters can you decon these areas and all of these surveys need to be completed - HRA - yeah well you had one week of training to be a Jr Rp Tech - you can handle it................

Do you really think I am going to send any work group into a work area surveyed by a labor/decon/jr rp one week training and let them loose.......................H ELL NO.... I will rely on the seasoned JR RP techs that will spend time on their education to make it to SR RP - not a local out of the hall that thinks they can do all of it to last longer on the job - and have no intention of pursuing this career path becasue their union hall pays them more per hour than Bartlett plus all the bennies..................

So I want you to think about this - train the Bartlett Decon / JR RP techs on instruments - ones that really want to continue on because they enjoy this field.......................o r would you prefer to train the ones that really do not give a XXXX - it's just another tag on to their job for this outage only.........think about it .........how much time do you really want to explain when you need it yesterday..................

I know this is off base from the jokes about meter training - I remember when I was a brand new JR tech..............I had to work on this.....................for some reason the frisker was my problem...........not the ion chambers or anything else..........maybe it was flipping back in forth - ccpm to dpm - depending upon if it was a personal contamination or a smear for a survey..............simple things like that..............

Thank you Eric for posting this presentation for all of us to learn and teach by. I have already helped a few new Deconners that wanted to move up in the ranks. We need more power point presentations - perhaps if you can get some from facilities prior to an outage as to what they plan on doing in accordance with their procedures - that would help....................if someone is not going to that outage - it's just an informational thing - but if they were and could review for common knowledge participation purposes..................... .....okay maybe I should have been a teacher  ;D

Hey  I am sorry if I offended you........ but I must ask,  do you drive a car???  Casn you read a spedometer??? the gas guage???? the temperature meter???

Dont you use these things daily?  If so, then wehy should we allow provisions for a RP tech that can nto read a meter?  Can he/she not drive a car?

Come on, be ready and able to do the job that you agreed to do.  Its that simple....  I think we have all beat this horse way down into the dirt.

justatech

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #176 on: Oct 21, 2007, 08:42 »
Hey  I am sorry if I offended you........ but I must ask,  do you drive a car???  Casn you read a spedometer??? the gas guage???? the temperature meter???

Dont you use these things daily?  If so, then wehy should we allow provisions for a RP tech that can nto read a meter?  Can he/she not drive a car?

Come on, be ready and able to do the job that you agreed to do.  Its that simple....  I think we have all beat this horse way down into the dirt.

No LaFeet....you didn't offend me - I used your quote since it was the last one and stated that "I couldn't quote everyone here."

Read thru my post again - it's about us helping Bartlett Decon/JR RP before they are replaced by less qualified contracted craft..................which isn't a field they will continue their education in.
Do you think they will remember the instrument training when they will only use RP quals once a year?

I also stated the problem I had as a brand new JR - I'm sure others have had that problem.....or another one with a different instrument....and yes it is up to us to teach / train our co-workers to the best of our ability.

I remember a site that blamed a SR RP Tech - after he left site - for not training their house tech how to use a Telepole correctly for truck surveys.........which I will add he knew how to use the telepole properly - he was just the scapegoat.........how is that Bartlett's problem - it's not unless it comes back to cast a shadow on the Tech's.....

Which is why this post was started by Eric..............they were informed of "some" Tech's lack of knowledge of instruments...............

LaFeet

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #177 on: Oct 22, 2007, 02:08 »
I understand all too well about the need to train the junoirs... and I agree.

And the trouble with different meters just does not fly with me.  Can you not drive a different car??? without additional training?  Come on, its just a meter... it reads out either CPM or DPM or mR or micro...

Im not asking you to convert degrees fahrenheit to kelvin.... just read a meter.  If you dont know.. ask.  Either way, do the job you can do, not the one you cant do.


Hope

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #178 on: Apr 04, 2009, 09:32 »
ROFLMAO!

"Judging by the rate of deflection of the needle across the scale, I estimated the dose to be . . . "

Jake Sasser IP3  ;D

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #179 on: Apr 05, 2009, 08:06 »
ROFLMAO!

"Judging by the rate of deflection of the needle across the scale, I estimated the dose to be . . . "

Jake Sasser IP3  ;D

I believe that's called "rate of peg" always a very reliable way to estimate dose :P
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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #180 on: Apr 05, 2009, 08:38 »
I believe that's called "rate of peg" always a very reliable way to estimate dose :P

Only with the older instruments - the RO-20 sux at this...inconsistent rate of peg.... ;)
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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #181 on: Apr 06, 2009, 04:32 »
Only with the older instruments - the RO-20 sux at this...inconsistent rate of peg.... ;)

gollleee, butt its bin sew long since aye hadda one of those in my hand.  isn't their an inverse of "rate of peg" witch illustrates this meters style of illustrashun, when it's settling on the digital display..... call it "digital decay"?
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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #182 on: Apr 06, 2009, 12:12 »
 ??? Im curious, what is the industry using as a primary instrument?  Analog (needle-peg-decay) or digital?  Working in the nuclear pharmacy buisness we still use an analog 110 with a long dose tube.  There is a slide window on the tube in order to sheild beta if needed.  We also use the analog 110 with the standard pancake probe as well. 

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #183 on: Apr 06, 2009, 09:03 »
gollleee, butt its bin sew long since aye hadda one of those in my hand.  isn't their an inverse of "rate of peg" witch illustrates this meters style of illustrashun, when it's settling on the digital display..... call it "digital decay"?

my bad... my eers bin burning all day long bout dis.  hadda go look it up, 'n i wuz remembering da ro-4a.  peace of junk, imho that is.
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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #184 on: Apr 06, 2009, 09:08 »
??? Im curious, what is the industry using as a primary instrument? 
da industry as..... power plants? doe?  dod (navy)? extra-terrestrial (nasa)?  environmental?  gist axing, dat's awl...  ;)
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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #185 on: Jun 05, 2009, 10:39 »
Question, is it better for a meter have the same reading every day when doing daily source checks or do you want to see variations in your reading?  (not large variations but taking into account of background, surrounding, and such)

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #186 on: Jun 08, 2009, 10:16 »
Too many variables in that one to answer. What kind of meter, what scale, how big is the source, what percent meter deflection, how fixed is the geometry, are you source checking in the 'Batt Chk' position? (OK, the last one was a joke, no offense intended.)

If you are getting the same reading on the same meter using the same reasonably high activity source in a fixed geometry with a long-lived isotope and you have not messed with the meter calibration, then getting the same reading is OK... but so is not getting the same exact reading.  If you are using a 2 mR/hr source to check an RO-2A, you should always get pretty much the same reading because your eye is not accurate enough to see the difference between 1.9 and 2.1 mR/hr at that end of the scale, so minor fluctuations are negated. If your head is not locked in a fixed geometry you can inadvertently help fudge the reading to comply with expected results by altering the angle from which you view the meter. Or you can do the opposite and introduce false error.

Too many variables.
« Last Edit: Jun 09, 2009, 10:36 by RDTroja »
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B.PRESGROVE

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #187 on: Jun 08, 2009, 05:37 »
I work in a nulcear pharmacy and we use 110s, to frisk out of the lab we use a 110 probe and a wall mounted foot monitor that are both attached to a common exit meter, and we use a energy compensation probe used to detect beta/gamma (it is an 8 inch aluminum probe with a nob at the top you turn to open a window in the side of it.)  The source for each instrument is attached to the side of the meter, we are basically doing a response check.  Each morning I check the instrument and write down what the reading is.  An example would be, I get 12,000 cpm one morning, but maybe the next it is 14,000 cpm.  I would take into account that there may be a change in background or weather or geometry of probe, etc. 

I know this is common when you are dealing with a weak source to get some variations, but when we are told that is impossible and to only write down what the sticker says, well I had to clear my throat.  Im needing some clarification just for my own peace of mind.  Being a former Radcon we always saw slight variations in readings that were within an acceptable range, and thought nothing of it. 

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #188 on: Jun 09, 2009, 09:11 »
You could certainly be getting changes in background, particularly if the source is attached to the meter and you are checking the response in different locations. There are a lot of environmental factors that could influence readings, too (I am not familiar with that particular instrument so I can't comment on specifics.) Normally, acceptable responses are given as a range of numbers based on statistical errors, and usually require subtracting out background if that is a variable. When calibrating the instrument there should be a Chi-square test performed that will demonstrate that the meter is giving consistent results and there should be a 'counts +/-' range based on whatever accuracy (percent confidence) is desired. If they are requiring you to write down a specific number based on expectations and not on results, you should not do that... it is called falsification. It is sometimes hard to make that stand if you think your job is at risk, but if you are really doing your job you have to write down what you get, not what they expect.
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B.PRESGROVE

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #189 on: Jun 11, 2009, 07:04 »
I agree with your comment.  When I was working Radcon at DOE we did our daily source checks for our instruments, but for some reason in the medical world they dont feel this step is necessary.  They are quite content with doing a response check and calling that the calibration check.  No matter how much I argue the fact I am looked at as the know it all.  So I do as they say but keep a seperate log for my records just in case.

I tried to explain the +/- range to the RSO, but again was told thats not how its done here and just live with it.  Oh well.

BetaAnt

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #190 on: Jun 11, 2009, 09:40 »
I just do not understand how so many RPMs, RSOs and CHPs get the ANSI standards wrong and say it's a matter of interpretation.
I have been to many sites that will use a source and develop a +or- 20% source value for daily source checks (e.g. portable instruments). But there are some (SRS and very few others) that take the initial response (source) check after the meter is returned from calibration as the +or- 20% value. This tends to give the facility multiple or custom +or- 20% source check values for every facility instrument for the same SOURCE. >:( I have inquired to the Subject Mater Experts and were told that's the way they have always dun it. DOE hasn't been bright enough to bust their chops yet.

In another case involving scalers it is downright scary, lazy and STUPID. But the SME said it was alright. The portable scaler is the Eberline HandEcount. Every scaler that I have worked on for the past twenty-five years has had pass a daily source check value of +or- 2 sigma (95% confidence). Outside the range and another background and source check are done. Another failure and another calibration/chi square/sigma determination are performed (half day operation). SRS had too many scalers not passing +or- 2 sigma, requiring calibration investigation. The SME got lazy and changed the procedure to +or- 3 sigma. His justification was to obtain a 98% confidence in his counting statistics. ;D I ROFLMAO!!!!! What a MOE RON!!! But the Golden Rule applied. SRS has the gold and you will do as we rule.

I can't wait until the first real court case comes up involving counting statistics and instrument reliability. 8) 8)

BA

 


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