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Author Topic: Meter Reading Training  (Read 145965 times)

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LaFeet

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #175 on: Oct 20, 2007, 09:32 »
I couldn't qoute everyone here but I will say this - joke all you want......................... .
I know of a few sites that would like to cut out Decon / Jr Techs.........what they want to do is hire the labor force out of the local union hall - train them to be a Jr Tech / Decon.............for just their ourtage that may come around every year or so......

Is is cheaper to hire them...............NO...... Bartlett is cheaper...................... .with experienced seasonal workers........I can hear it now.............."Hey you labor person after you are done carrying the buckets and scaffold for the carpenters can you decon these areas and all of these surveys need to be completed - HRA - yeah well you had one week of training to be a Jr Rp Tech - you can handle it................

Do you really think I am going to send any work group into a work area surveyed by a labor/decon/jr rp one week training and let them loose.......................H ELL NO.... I will rely on the seasoned JR RP techs that will spend time on their education to make it to SR RP - not a local out of the hall that thinks they can do all of it to last longer on the job - and have no intention of pursuing this career path becasue their union hall pays them more per hour than Bartlett plus all the bennies..................

So I want you to think about this - train the Bartlett Decon / JR RP techs on instruments - ones that really want to continue on because they enjoy this field.......................o r would you prefer to train the ones that really do not give a XXXX - it's just another tag on to their job for this outage only.........think about it .........how much time do you really want to explain when you need it yesterday..................

I know this is off base from the jokes about meter training - I remember when I was a brand new JR tech..............I had to work on this.....................for some reason the frisker was my problem...........not the ion chambers or anything else..........maybe it was flipping back in forth - ccpm to dpm - depending upon if it was a personal contamination or a smear for a survey..............simple things like that..............

Thank you Eric for posting this presentation for all of us to learn and teach by. I have already helped a few new Deconners that wanted to move up in the ranks. We need more power point presentations - perhaps if you can get some from facilities prior to an outage as to what they plan on doing in accordance with their procedures - that would help....................if someone is not going to that outage - it's just an informational thing - but if they were and could review for common knowledge participation purposes..................... .....okay maybe I should have been a teacher  ;D

Hey  I am sorry if I offended you........ but I must ask,  do you drive a car???  Casn you read a spedometer??? the gas guage???? the temperature meter???

Dont you use these things daily?  If so, then wehy should we allow provisions for a RP tech that can nto read a meter?  Can he/she not drive a car?

Come on, be ready and able to do the job that you agreed to do.  Its that simple....  I think we have all beat this horse way down into the dirt.

justatech

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #176 on: Oct 21, 2007, 08:42 »
Hey  I am sorry if I offended you........ but I must ask,  do you drive a car???  Casn you read a spedometer??? the gas guage???? the temperature meter???

Dont you use these things daily?  If so, then wehy should we allow provisions for a RP tech that can nto read a meter?  Can he/she not drive a car?

Come on, be ready and able to do the job that you agreed to do.  Its that simple....  I think we have all beat this horse way down into the dirt.

No LaFeet....you didn't offend me - I used your quote since it was the last one and stated that "I couldn't quote everyone here."

Read thru my post again - it's about us helping Bartlett Decon/JR RP before they are replaced by less qualified contracted craft..................which isn't a field they will continue their education in.
Do you think they will remember the instrument training when they will only use RP quals once a year?

I also stated the problem I had as a brand new JR - I'm sure others have had that problem.....or another one with a different instrument....and yes it is up to us to teach / train our co-workers to the best of our ability.

I remember a site that blamed a SR RP Tech - after he left site - for not training their house tech how to use a Telepole correctly for truck surveys.........which I will add he knew how to use the telepole properly - he was just the scapegoat.........how is that Bartlett's problem - it's not unless it comes back to cast a shadow on the Tech's.....

Which is why this post was started by Eric..............they were informed of "some" Tech's lack of knowledge of instruments...............

LaFeet

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #177 on: Oct 22, 2007, 02:08 »
I understand all too well about the need to train the junoirs... and I agree.

And the trouble with different meters just does not fly with me.  Can you not drive a different car??? without additional training?  Come on, its just a meter... it reads out either CPM or DPM or mR or micro...

Im not asking you to convert degrees fahrenheit to kelvin.... just read a meter.  If you dont know.. ask.  Either way, do the job you can do, not the one you cant do.


Hope

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #178 on: Apr 04, 2009, 09:32 »
ROFLMAO!

"Judging by the rate of deflection of the needle across the scale, I estimated the dose to be . . . "

Jake Sasser IP3  ;D

Offline PWHoppe

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #179 on: Apr 05, 2009, 08:06 »
ROFLMAO!

"Judging by the rate of deflection of the needle across the scale, I estimated the dose to be . . . "

Jake Sasser IP3  ;D

I believe that's called "rate of peg" always a very reliable way to estimate dose :P
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Offline retired nuke

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #180 on: Apr 05, 2009, 08:38 »
I believe that's called "rate of peg" always a very reliable way to estimate dose :P

Only with the older instruments - the RO-20 sux at this...inconsistent rate of peg.... ;)
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Offline SloGlo

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #181 on: Apr 06, 2009, 04:32 »
Only with the older instruments - the RO-20 sux at this...inconsistent rate of peg.... ;)

gollleee, butt its bin sew long since aye hadda one of those in my hand.  isn't their an inverse of "rate of peg" witch illustrates this meters style of illustrashun, when it's settling on the digital display..... call it "digital decay"?
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B.PRESGROVE

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #182 on: Apr 06, 2009, 12:12 »
 ??? Im curious, what is the industry using as a primary instrument?  Analog (needle-peg-decay) or digital?  Working in the nuclear pharmacy buisness we still use an analog 110 with a long dose tube.  There is a slide window on the tube in order to sheild beta if needed.  We also use the analog 110 with the standard pancake probe as well. 

Offline SloGlo

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #183 on: Apr 06, 2009, 09:03 »
gollleee, butt its bin sew long since aye hadda one of those in my hand.  isn't their an inverse of "rate of peg" witch illustrates this meters style of illustrashun, when it's settling on the digital display..... call it "digital decay"?

my bad... my eers bin burning all day long bout dis.  hadda go look it up, 'n i wuz remembering da ro-4a.  peace of junk, imho that is.
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Offline SloGlo

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #184 on: Apr 06, 2009, 09:08 »
??? Im curious, what is the industry using as a primary instrument? 
da industry as..... power plants? doe?  dod (navy)? extra-terrestrial (nasa)?  environmental?  gist axing, dat's awl...  ;)
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B.PRESGROVE

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #185 on: Jun 05, 2009, 10:39 »
Question, is it better for a meter have the same reading every day when doing daily source checks or do you want to see variations in your reading?  (not large variations but taking into account of background, surrounding, and such)

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #186 on: Jun 08, 2009, 10:16 »
Too many variables in that one to answer. What kind of meter, what scale, how big is the source, what percent meter deflection, how fixed is the geometry, are you source checking in the 'Batt Chk' position? (OK, the last one was a joke, no offense intended.)

If you are getting the same reading on the same meter using the same reasonably high activity source in a fixed geometry with a long-lived isotope and you have not messed with the meter calibration, then getting the same reading is OK... but so is not getting the same exact reading.  If you are using a 2 mR/hr source to check an RO-2A, you should always get pretty much the same reading because your eye is not accurate enough to see the difference between 1.9 and 2.1 mR/hr at that end of the scale, so minor fluctuations are negated. If your head is not locked in a fixed geometry you can inadvertently help fudge the reading to comply with expected results by altering the angle from which you view the meter. Or you can do the opposite and introduce false error.

Too many variables.
« Last Edit: Jun 09, 2009, 10:36 by RDTroja »
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B.PRESGROVE

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #187 on: Jun 08, 2009, 05:37 »
I work in a nulcear pharmacy and we use 110s, to frisk out of the lab we use a 110 probe and a wall mounted foot monitor that are both attached to a common exit meter, and we use a energy compensation probe used to detect beta/gamma (it is an 8 inch aluminum probe with a nob at the top you turn to open a window in the side of it.)  The source for each instrument is attached to the side of the meter, we are basically doing a response check.  Each morning I check the instrument and write down what the reading is.  An example would be, I get 12,000 cpm one morning, but maybe the next it is 14,000 cpm.  I would take into account that there may be a change in background or weather or geometry of probe, etc. 

I know this is common when you are dealing with a weak source to get some variations, but when we are told that is impossible and to only write down what the sticker says, well I had to clear my throat.  Im needing some clarification just for my own peace of mind.  Being a former Radcon we always saw slight variations in readings that were within an acceptable range, and thought nothing of it. 

Offline RDTroja

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #188 on: Jun 09, 2009, 09:11 »
You could certainly be getting changes in background, particularly if the source is attached to the meter and you are checking the response in different locations. There are a lot of environmental factors that could influence readings, too (I am not familiar with that particular instrument so I can't comment on specifics.) Normally, acceptable responses are given as a range of numbers based on statistical errors, and usually require subtracting out background if that is a variable. When calibrating the instrument there should be a Chi-square test performed that will demonstrate that the meter is giving consistent results and there should be a 'counts +/-' range based on whatever accuracy (percent confidence) is desired. If they are requiring you to write down a specific number based on expectations and not on results, you should not do that... it is called falsification. It is sometimes hard to make that stand if you think your job is at risk, but if you are really doing your job you have to write down what you get, not what they expect.
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B.PRESGROVE

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #189 on: Jun 11, 2009, 07:04 »
I agree with your comment.  When I was working Radcon at DOE we did our daily source checks for our instruments, but for some reason in the medical world they dont feel this step is necessary.  They are quite content with doing a response check and calling that the calibration check.  No matter how much I argue the fact I am looked at as the know it all.  So I do as they say but keep a seperate log for my records just in case.

I tried to explain the +/- range to the RSO, but again was told thats not how its done here and just live with it.  Oh well.

BetaAnt

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Re: Meter Reading Training
« Reply #190 on: Jun 11, 2009, 09:40 »
I just do not understand how so many RPMs, RSOs and CHPs get the ANSI standards wrong and say it's a matter of interpretation.
I have been to many sites that will use a source and develop a +or- 20% source value for daily source checks (e.g. portable instruments). But there are some (SRS and very few others) that take the initial response (source) check after the meter is returned from calibration as the +or- 20% value. This tends to give the facility multiple or custom +or- 20% source check values for every facility instrument for the same SOURCE. >:( I have inquired to the Subject Mater Experts and were told that's the way they have always dun it. DOE hasn't been bright enough to bust their chops yet.

In another case involving scalers it is downright scary, lazy and STUPID. But the SME said it was alright. The portable scaler is the Eberline HandEcount. Every scaler that I have worked on for the past twenty-five years has had pass a daily source check value of +or- 2 sigma (95% confidence). Outside the range and another background and source check are done. Another failure and another calibration/chi square/sigma determination are performed (half day operation). SRS had too many scalers not passing +or- 2 sigma, requiring calibration investigation. The SME got lazy and changed the procedure to +or- 3 sigma. His justification was to obtain a 98% confidence in his counting statistics. ;D I ROFLMAO!!!!! What a MOE RON!!! But the Golden Rule applied. SRS has the gold and you will do as we rule.

I can't wait until the first real court case comes up involving counting statistics and instrument reliability. 8) 8)

BA

 


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