Prototype Instructor Duty

[badger]

Recently, I got an email from our career counselor saying that my rate was undermanned at the prototypes and that the 18 month sea duty waiver would be approved for anyone wanting to go do instructor duty. I went to NY prototype but would rather go do instructor duty at Charleston.

My understanding of current prototype instructor duty is as follows:
8 hour rotating shifts, days> swings > mids > training week
You have a short amount of time to qualify.
You do not get sea pay; however, you do get instructor pay.
You are treated far better than Staff Pickups are as a sea returnee.

Anyone have anything to add?

[JustinHEMI05]

I don't know what instructor pay you are talking about. I didn't get any instructor pay. You can still collect sub pay if you are a submariner if you OBLISERVE or whatever they call it these days for 14 months. Besides shift work, you might have opportunities for day staff jobs. Unfortunately I never left shift work when I was there. Did you mean that you are going to Charleston or just that you want to? I would try to get that if I were you. The entire command from the CO on down sucks at NY right now. And you have a bunch of lame duck Master Chiefs that don't help.

Justin

[badger]

I haven't dropped the chit yet. I wanted to get more information before I took a blind jump in my career for the third time 

I would like to go to Charleston because I didnt care for New York prototype when I went there as a student.

Also, Im a (SW) not (SS).. will that limit what I can do there?

[RodBottom]

Justin-
He is talking about the replacement for pro-pay (SDAP-$450).
Yeah, you get that. But no sea pay. Get ready for a pay cut.
As far as I know, no limit exists as far as SW vs SS, however, I remember (and this is a generalization, so take what you like out of it) that most of the sub guys were considered smarter than the surface guys. Again, take it for what it's worth.
As to the NY command structure - Justin got it in one. I never left shift work myself, and the of the top three, I never met the XO, but the CO and the CMC....I don't want to talk about it.
Feel free to PM me if you have other questions.

[ddklbl]

I struck my origional post because, perhaps my sarcasm is a little over the top...

Regardless, prototype is not a shore tour, despite what anyone tells you.  You will be doing both yourself and everyone else there a disservice if you think of it as such.

You mentioned a third leap.  Where you are in your career?

[landlubber]

Wow, I have so many pent up feelings on this topic that I don't know where to start. To start with badger's original question: You got the shift rotation right, but it is closer to 9 hours per day than 8. Don't forget the extra time for additional or advanced qualification exams (which somehow never occur on your shift), critiques, extra-early before shift briefings during shutdown or testing periods, and STUDENTS. When I was a Shift Supervisor at prototype I was amazed by how much extra time my crew would put in to get their guys (and gals) qualified on time.

Your time to qualify depends on what you are qualifying (MO=EO=RO is around 14 weeks (?? help), then you get another 2 weeks or so for ELT, +time for EWS, +time for EOOW). I can't remember the rules, but it sounds like you will not meet the wickets for initial EWS or EOOW quals, so don't worry about it. You also get some extra time based on when you attend Prospective Staff Instructor class during your quals. As ddklbl pointed out, one of the FEW benefits for enlisted staff duty at prototype is the ability to qualify EOOW. If you want to do that: let everyone know, and do your assigned jobs as well as you can. That subject can get really long, if you want to talk about it, send me a PM.

Being a sub or surface sailor should not affect your possibilities at prototype. You will find people in your chain of command with prejudices, but if you are a good staff instructor, no one will care. [Case in point, I had an ET1/SS who was qualified EWS on his boat and at prototype. He was the only ET1 in my RC-Div, so the Operations Officer ordered me to make him the RC-Div Section LPO. He was a soup sandwich. He stood waterbrake over checkout cube every day. The best two RO watchstanders in my crew were staff pickups. One was qualified 6 mos, the other 9. I had to go through an NPEB ORSE with those two SPUs on the panel. Bless them both, they were good nukes.]

That rambling story leads me to the SPU vs. sea returnee discussion. Sea returnees are not treated "better" than SPUs, they are just given more responsibility and expected to perform better. Sea returnees are treated with more respect because of their experience and qualifications, but also given less slack.

Finally, I unfortunately have to agree with your decision to avoid NPTU Ballston Spa. I have seen the sad state of affairs there. I am afraid that the government is micromanaging that place right into the toilet. It is unfortunate because I believe that the KSO model of civilian and Navy cooperation is inherently better than the organizational structure at MTS. I can debate that if anyone is interested...

Good luck with your decision. As my favorite Leading Crew Chief once told me, "The only place worse than prototype is the shipyard during overhaul."

[mlslstephens]

Anyone have anything to add?

I do check-ins every Friday.  I see all types.  I think Prototype is the toughest shore duty in the Navy...that is why I'm here! 

[JustinHEMI05]

I struck my origional post because, perhaps my sarcasm is a little over the top...

Regardless, prototype is not a shore tour, despite what anyone tells you.  You will be doing both yourself and everyone else there a disservice if you think of it as such.

You mentioned a third leap.  Where you are in your career?

I say BS. It is indeed a shore tour for enlisted folk. Call the detailer and ask how it is listed. When I was asked about going to SHORE DUTY... it was presented as an option for SHORE DUTY... not sea duty. And, if I made the mistake of staying in the Navy... I would be on a submarine that goes to SEA right now. I didn't get SEA pay when I went to prototype. Do you know why? BECAUSE ITS SHORE DUTY! I didn't see any oceans around MARF. I didn't have to man the maneuvering watch. We certainly never got underway. We didn't even close the hatches and pretend we were underway for three days for fun. I went home everyday. It is indeed shore duty. We don't go on to some follow on shore tour like O gang (did).  It is comments like that... that made life miserable at NY. Not shore duty... that is both the funniest, and saddest thing I have read all day.

Justin

[JustinHEMI05]

Justin-
He is talking about the replacement for pro-pay (SDAP-$450).
Yeah, you get that. But no sea pay. Get ready for a pay cut.
As far as I know, no limit exists as far as SW vs SS, however, I remember (and this is a generalization, so take what you like out of it) that most of the sub guys were considered smarter than the surface guys. Again, take it for what it's worth.
As to the NY command structure - Justin got it in one. I never left shift work myself, and the of the top three, I never met the XO, but the CO and the CMC....I don't want to talk about it.
Feel free to PM me if you have other questions.

Gotcha thanks.

And to add my agreement, SS vs SW shouldn't matter. But sometimes it does and it really only depends on which warfare the HMFIC (AKA PMC) is.

Justin

[ddklbl]

I say BS. It is indeed a shore tour for enlisted folk. Call the detailer and ask how it is listed. When I was asked about going to SHORE DUTY... it was presented as an option for SHORE DUTY... not sea duty. And, if I made the mistake of staying in the Navy... I would be on a submarine that goes to SEA right now. I didn't get SEA pay when I went to prototype. Do you know why? BECAUSE ITS SHORE DUTY! I didn't see any oceans around MARF. I didn't have to man the maneuvering watch. We certainly never got underway. We didn't even close the hatches and pretend we were underway for three days for fun. I went home everyday. It is indeed shore duty. We don't go on to some follow on shore tour like O gang (did).  It is comments like that... that made life miserable at NY. Not shore duty... that is both the funniest, and saddest thing I have read all day.

Justin

As a matter of fact, I did close the hatches and got underway on the MTS, twice   Hurricanes Gaston and Ivan, I think…

Seriously, I stand by what I said.  Never on the boat was I pressured (coerced is too strong a word) into changing my leave dates because a PBTEX is that important.  My wife and I both agree that as crappy an experience the boat was, we were happier on it.  It felt like we had more time together on the boat.  Now, these are all subjective “feelings”, for whatever that is worth. 

A friend of mine and I had similar experiences with different people, with similar exchanges.  I’ll give you the Cliff Notes:  One of the TEOOWs was doing more than his fair share with a particular student.  He has come in early and stayed late for him.  Stood 8 of 8 through 11 of 8 watches with this guy and at a crew leadership meeting ask for the ETO (this is all his job, BTW, per the letter of the law) to stand the next watch with him because the student isn’t responding to help anymore.  What do you say when he says he can’t because he was taking Friday off for a three day, this was his shore duty after all.  He was right, it was his shore duty.  So he took his three day and the original TEOOW stayed late again. 

I say don’t treat Prototype like a shore duty because you can’t.  I wish you could.  That might help out in the retention battle (this broken record again…).   The fact of the matter is, there is too much work for too few people who actually care enough to take the initiative and try to make a better end product.  If they would classify prototype as neutral duty, or give everyone sub-pay, maybe that would be honest recognition for the work that guys do there.

We use euphemisms like challenging, tough and demanding to hide what we really mean.  Personally, professionally, physically and emotionally, it’s a ball buster.

Justin, you and I are fighting the same fight.  Maybe it’s just from different attitudes or perspectives.

[Rad Sponge]

Prototype is what it is, a hybrid bastard of a system and it can be no better than that. They are old reactors with old plants that need constant maintenance and oh by the way let's train a bunch of students by cycling the crap out of them.

If you want shore duty, go teach A-School or NPS, but I can't think of a single nuke shore billet that is normal and like some NAVAIR shore command working 7-3 with duty every other month or something.

Its freaking nuclear power, nuclear power and normal and easy are not usually in the same sentence with out modifiers like "far from"  and "not very".

Quit you freaking whining and go train a nub.

[ender17]

Recently, I got an email from our career counselor saying that my rate was undermanned at the prototypes

ALL rates are undermaned at prototype.  Mainly because ALL rates are undermaned overall.  That, and prototype sucks as any kind of duty.  I did 2 years of rotating shift work on a precom.  Why would I want to do 3 more?  I'm glad I got out of it, and went to a real shore duty.  Repairing those tin cans is a lot better than training students.  If they could ever get a working system it may not be so bad.  But no one (at least up in NY) will listen to anyone that actually has a good idea.

I went to NY prototype but would rather go do instructor duty at Charleston.

Good idea.  That and it be warmer down there. 

My understanding of current prototype instructor duty is as follows:
8 hour rotating shifts, days> swings > mids > training week
You have a short amount of time to qualify.
You do not get sea pay; however, you do get instructor pay.
You are treated far better than Staff Pickups are as a sea returnee.

Anyone have anything to add?

-Agreed on that it is closer to 9+ hour work day
-About 6 months I think overall to qualify....it may take you that long based on you being a SW and the differences between the plants.  However, you may be able to pick it up really quick.  I don't know.  Just do your best.
-Yay for pay cut.
-Treatment really depends on how you treat everyone else.  I have an ability to piss off anyone and everyone without even trying.  So needless to say, spu's got treated better than me.  An' spu's are really helpful in qualifying.  They don't know any other plant, and so can't mess it up when explaining something.  Be nice to the spu's....for a little while. 

[Wirebiter]

Prototype is what it is, a hybrid bastard of a system and it can be no better than that. They are old reactors with old plants that need constant maintenance and oh by the way let's train a bunch of students by cycling the crap out of them.

If you want shore duty, go teach A-School or NPS, but I can't think of a single nuke shore billet that is normal and like some NAVAIR shore command working 7-3 with duty every other month or something.

Try looking into instructor duty at one of the fleet training facilities in Bangor, Kings Bay, Groton, San Diego, or (my favorite), Hawai'i.  You won't get any special instructor pay, but you will teach nukes.  I thoroughly enjoyed my 3 years at NSTCP Pearl Harbor.  They time off was well worth the smaller pay-check.

[JustinHEMI05]

As a matter of fact, I did close the hatches and got underway on the MTS, twice   Hurricanes Gaston and Ivan, I think…

Seriously, I stand by what I said.  Never on the boat was I pressured (coerced is too strong a word) into changing my leave dates because a PBTEX is that important.  My wife and I both agree that as crappy an experience the boat was, we were happier on it.  It felt like we had more time together on the boat.  Now, these are all subjective “feelings”, for whatever that is worth. 

A friend of mine and I had similar experiences with different people, with similar exchanges.  I’ll give you the Cliff Notes:  One of the TEOOWs was doing more than his fair share with a particular student.  He has come in early and stayed late for him.  Stood 8 of 8 through 11 of 8 watches with this guy and at a crew leadership meeting ask for the ETO (this is all his job, BTW, per the letter of the law) to stand the next watch with him because the student isn’t responding to help anymore.  What do you say when he says he can’t because he was taking Friday off for a three day, this was his shore duty after all.  He was right, it was his shore duty.  So he took his three day and the original TEOOW stayed late again. 

I say don’t treat Prototype like a shore duty because you can’t.  I wish you could.  That might help out in the retention battle (this broken record again…).   The fact of the matter is, there is too much work for too few people who actually care enough to take the initiative and try to make a better end product.  If they would classify prototype as neutral duty, or give everyone sub-pay, maybe that would be honest recognition for the work that guys do there.

We use euphemisms like challenging, tough and demanding to hide what we really mean.  Personally, professionally, physically and emotionally, it’s a ball buster.

Justin, you and I are fighting the same fight.  Maybe it’s just from different attitudes or perspectives.

Ah now that there is some context I understand what you were saying.... and I see your points and agree. But the statement ITS NOT A SHORE DUTY alone stirs up some bad feelings in me.

Justin

[Roll Tide]

ALL rates are undermaned at prototype.  Mainly because ALL rates are undermaned overall. 

This reminds me of my opportunities for shore duty (way back when). I finally told the detailer, "You want me to do a job I hate in a place I hate for a pay cut. Which one of those can be adjusted?" Then it was back to sea for me...

One little note: you not only have a sea/shore rotation counter, but also an "operational nuclear reactor" counter. If you go to prototype, you may be eligible for new construction or other assignments. If you go somewhere without an operating reactor, your next slot is to an operating reactor. (Unless they have gotten rid of this retention prevention jewel...)

[shayne]

My understanding of current prototype instructor duty is as follows:
8 hour rotating shifts, days> swings > mids > training week
You have a short amount of time to qualify.
You do not get sea pay; however, you do get instructor pay.
You are treated far better than Staff Pickups are as a sea returnee.

Anyone have anything to add?

I enjoyed my time at S8G Prototype as a Sea Returnee better than my time at sea on the USS California.  At least at S8G I went home every night and my BAS (food money) made up for the lack of Sea Pay.  I may have stayed in the Navy if they would have let me do another shore tour at S8G.  I had no desire to go back to sea, especially since the Nuclear Cruiser was a thing of the past.

I got a sea waiver to go to prototype, it was about 18 months.  Upon arrival at S8G, I had 3 months to get all qualifications complete (In Rate).  I don't remember any special instructor pay, but I do remember that nuke pro-pay (SDAP) for surface nukes was more than the sub pro-pay.  Prototype paid all nuke pay at the surface rate regardless of SS or SW, so for the sub guys it was more money.  I worked about 9-10 hours everyday, but I had lots of extra duties to take care of.

[LDO4CNO]

One little note: you not only have a sea/shore rotation counter, but also an "operational nuclear reactor" counter. If you go to prototype, you may be eligible for new construction or other assignments. If you go somewhere without an operating reactor, your next slot is to an operating reactor. (Unless they have gotten rid of this retention prevention jewel...)

This little retention prevention jewel.... hasn't changed.  

JB

[flamatrix99]

All this talk really makes me grateful i got out.I didn't mind my tour at nuc repair at an IMA. They really tried to get me to go back to NY for prototype but there was no friggin way... Now I work Tues - Fri 10 hour days and life is good...

[Kev3399]

This reminds me of my opportunities for shore duty (way back when). I finally told the detailer, "You want me to do a job I hate in a place I hate for a pay cut. Which one of those can be adjusted?" Then it was back to sea for me...

One little note: you not only have a sea/shore rotation counter, but also an "operational nuclear reactor" counter. If you go to prototype, you may be eligible for new construction or other assignments. If you go somewhere without an operating reactor, your next slot is to an operating reactor. (Unless they have gotten rid of this retention prevention jewel...)

Interesting.....I have never officially seen anything like this on paper.(It would be a good retention tool) Losing my slate to a precom at the end of my prototype tour and then being told it was Japan(GW) or the Enterprise had a significant impact on my decision to leave the Navy. It seems the detailing process is more of who you know vice what you've done or where you have been in the past.(Other than the normal sea/shore requirement)

As for the discussion about Prototype being a shore tour.......Its definitely not a "normal" shore tour. The Navy needs to recognize that and reward the sailors who have a successful prototype tour. Thats not happening for the most part. I don't have all the answers, but I think they could start on the fiscal end and boost propay more and/or allow sea pay for all who are there. Not just the sub guys who have obliserved.

And yes.....I have been underway on the MTS-626 twice. Gotta love being the "Hurrican Crew X2". I believe Ivan left us down there for almost two days. The memories.....I clearly remember sleeping on the floor(similar comfort level of my rack on the ship) and waking up to go stand watch. I was asking myself, "Why do I feel like I am underway? And I am on a submarine that goes no where.......how have I ended up in my current situation?" 

[mlslstephens]

The Navy needs to recognize that and reward the sailors who have a successful prototype tour. Thats not happening for the most part.

Oh, that hurts.     Come on, I let you leave with terminal leave didn't I ? 

[Kev3399]

Oh, that hurts.     Come on, I let you leave with terminal leave didn't I ? 

I'll clarify and apologize for using one sentence to explain my thoughts.(never a good idea) I never said the people at prototype are the problem or the command doesn't do everything they can to reward sailors. I'm speaking big picture NaVLI4......Overall Navy. There are too many roadblocks to make it a normal shore tour. It seems the chain of command gets their hands tied way to often by outside organizations when trying to make it a better place. The Navy/NR won't let prototype change, or take new ideas and put them in motion. The mentality/fact that enlisted EOOWs(mostly CPOs) work for Bechtel Bettis contractors ruined the tail end of my tour. There are so many different ways to accomplish "Prototype" without wearing down the sailors to the point of complete exhaustion in a 40 month tour. I spent every single day of my tour on rotating shiftwork.....I was always too important to leave crew.(So they said  ) Never even did a 7 week offcrew instructor spot. I showed up minus 17 days of leave and went on terminal with about 53 days on the books. Thats not a rewarding tour. It was rewarding for me at times because I was successful professionally, however it wasn't rewarding for my family at all.

[RodBottom]

I couldn't agree with Kevin's post more. I was always "too important" to leave crew and watched as dirtbags and people that we didn't trust to stand watch went to cushy jobs in Offcrew/Maintenance/etc.

Think about this. If ONE person is too important to leave crew, then there is something wrong.

Speaking from a management/leadership perspective: I understand that you don't want to let good people go. The important part is recognizing accomplishment and hard work and then rewarding that....meaning time off or a better job. The typical Navy leader is limited on the perks that can be given out. Basically, letting someone leave work early if nothing is going on is one of the only things. I can't give you a raise/extra pay because you were on shiftwork for 3 1/2 years ON SHORE DUTY, and I can't give you a raise or overtime for over the top performance.

I can tell my bitterness is showing, but most of that is directed towards the upper chain at NY Protoype. These are, however, valid points common to Prototype duty in general, and are things that can be fixed by a FAIR job rotation schedule at the plants.

[xobxdoc]

You think the Navy will be fair? How long have you been in? The only time the Navy does anything that resembles fair is when it's time for you to re-enlist. Show them your displeasure by getting out and getting a job where hard work and a good work ethic will be rewarded. Their bonuses don't come close to the money you can make in the commercial nuclear field if that's where you stay. My second year with OT as an operator I made 102K with probably half the hours that someone on a boat would put in. The quality of life is a little better too.
Good luck.

[landlubber]

I couldn't agree with Kevin's post more. I was always "too important" to leave crew and watched as dirtbags and people that we didn't trust to stand watch went to cushy jobs in Offcrew/Maintenance/etc.

Think about this. If ONE person is too important to leave crew, then there is something wrong.

Speaking from a management/leadership perspective: I understand that you don't want to let good people go. The important part is recognizing accomplishment and hard work and then rewarding that....meaning time off or a better job. The typical Navy leader is limited on the perks that can be given out. Basically, letting someone leave work early if nothing is going on is one of the only things. I can't give you a raise/extra pay because you were on shiftwork for 3 1/2 years ON SHORE DUTY, and I can't give you a raise or overtime for over the top performance.

I can tell my bitterness is showing, but most of that is directed towards the upper chain at NY Prototype. These are, however, valid points common to Prototype duty in general, and are things that can be fixed by a FAIR job rotation schedule at the plants.

All I can say is, "I am sorry, and I would do it again." I was one of the Shift Sups and later one of the managers that had to make those unfair decisions. The unwritten plant practice that I approved of was this: You get only ONE good deal during your 3.5 years at KSO. If you are a hot-runner, you can get a dayshift job or qualify EOOW - not both. Now in practice, some people did get both, but I always felt that was wrong. (Also, I am talking about 1st tour sea-returnees, not E-7s and up.) 

The bottom line reasoning for screwing the good operators is this: What is the other option? Was I supposed to put ET1/SS Moron on RO over EWS every day? I think I would have caused the web to melt down with all of the critique reports I would have had to write. See description of said Moron in my earlier post: http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,12008.msg65677.html#msg65677
Operating, training on and maintaining those darn prototypes takes a lot of skill. Not because the plants are hard to operate (now that D1G and S3G are gone), but because of the constant ups-and-downs with 10+ students on watch.

My hat is off to all prototype staff instructors past, present and future. It is difficult and noble duty. The best part of my time there was working with the Navy folks. No BS.

[JustinHEMI05]

All I can say is, "I am sorry, and I would do it again." I was one of the Shift Sups and later one of the managers that had to make those unfair decisions. The unwritten plant practice that I approved of was this: You get only ONE good deal during your 3.5 years at KSO. If you are a hot-runner, you can get a dayshift job or qualify EOOW - not both. Now in practice, some people did get both, but I always felt that was wrong. (Also, I am talking about 1st tour sea-returnees, not E-7s and up.) 

The bottom line reasoning for screwing the good operators is this: What is the other option? Was I supposed to put ET1/SS Moron on RO over EWS every day? I think I would have caused the web to melt down with all of the critique reports I would have had to write. See description of said Moron in my earlier post: http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,12008.msg65677.html#msg65677
Operating, training on and maintaining those darn prototypes takes a lot of skill. Not because the plants are hard to operate (now that D1G and S3G are gone), but because of the constant ups-and-downs with 10+ students on watch.

My hat is off to all prototype staff instructors past, present and future. It is difficult and noble duty. The best part of my time there was working with the Navy folks. No BS.

So I can blame YOU for me never having the chance to get out of rotation after I qualified EOOW. Now the truth comes out. LOL

Justin