Prototype Instructor Duty

[badger]

Recently, I got an email from our career counselor saying that my rate was undermanned at the prototypes and that the 18 month sea duty waiver would be approved for anyone wanting to go do instructor duty. I went to NY prototype but would rather go do instructor duty at Charleston.

My understanding of current prototype instructor duty is as follows:
8 hour rotating shifts, days> swings > mids > training week
You have a short amount of time to qualify.
You do not get sea pay; however, you do get instructor pay.
You are treated far better than Staff Pickups are as a sea returnee.

Anyone have anything to add?

[JustinHEMI05]

I don't know what instructor pay you are talking about. I didn't get any instructor pay. You can still collect sub pay if you are a submariner if you OBLISERVE or whatever they call it these days for 14 months. Besides shift work, you might have opportunities for day staff jobs. Unfortunately I never left shift work when I was there. Did you mean that you are going to Charleston or just that you want to? I would try to get that if I were you. The entire command from the CO on down sucks at NY right now. And you have a bunch of lame duck Master Chiefs that don't help.

Justin

[badger]

I haven't dropped the chit yet. I wanted to get more information before I took a blind jump in my career for the third time 

I would like to go to Charleston because I didnt care for New York prototype when I went there as a student.

Also, Im a (SW) not (SS).. will that limit what I can do there?

[RodBottom]

Justin-
He is talking about the replacement for pro-pay (SDAP-$450).
Yeah, you get that. But no sea pay. Get ready for a pay cut.
As far as I know, no limit exists as far as SW vs SS, however, I remember (and this is a generalization, so take what you like out of it) that most of the sub guys were considered smarter than the surface guys. Again, take it for what it's worth.
As to the NY command structure - Justin got it in one. I never left shift work myself, and the of the top three, I never met the XO, but the CO and the CMC....I don't want to talk about it.
Feel free to PM me if you have other questions.

[ddklbl]

I struck my origional post because, perhaps my sarcasm is a little over the top...

Regardless, prototype is not a shore tour, despite what anyone tells you.  You will be doing both yourself and everyone else there a disservice if you think of it as such.

You mentioned a third leap.  Where you are in your career?

[landlubber]

Wow, I have so many pent up feelings on this topic that I don't know where to start. To start with badger's original question: You got the shift rotation right, but it is closer to 9 hours per day than 8. Don't forget the extra time for additional or advanced qualification exams (which somehow never occur on your shift), critiques, extra-early before shift briefings during shutdown or testing periods, and STUDENTS. When I was a Shift Supervisor at prototype I was amazed by how much extra time my crew would put in to get their guys (and gals) qualified on time.

Your time to qualify depends on what you are qualifying (MO=EO=RO is around 14 weeks (?? help), then you get another 2 weeks or so for ELT, +time for EWS, +time for EOOW). I can't remember the rules, but it sounds like you will not meet the wickets for initial EWS or EOOW quals, so don't worry about it. You also get some extra time based on when you attend Prospective Staff Instructor class during your quals. As ddklbl pointed out, one of the FEW benefits for enlisted staff duty at prototype is the ability to qualify EOOW. If you want to do that: let everyone know, and do your assigned jobs as well as you can. That subject can get really long, if you want to talk about it, send me a PM.

Being a sub or surface sailor should not affect your possibilities at prototype. You will find people in your chain of command with prejudices, but if you are a good staff instructor, no one will care. [Case in point, I had an ET1/SS who was qualified EWS on his boat and at prototype. He was the only ET1 in my RC-Div, so the Operations Officer ordered me to make him the RC-Div Section LPO. He was a soup sandwich. He stood waterbrake over checkout cube every day. The best two RO watchstanders in my crew were staff pickups. One was qualified 6 mos, the other 9. I had to go through an NPEB ORSE with those two SPUs on the panel. Bless them both, they were good nukes.]

That rambling story leads me to the SPU vs. sea returnee discussion. Sea returnees are not treated "better" than SPUs, they are just given more responsibility and expected to perform better. Sea returnees are treated with more respect because of their experience and qualifications, but also given less slack.

Finally, I unfortunately have to agree with your decision to avoid NPTU Ballston Spa. I have seen the sad state of affairs there. I am afraid that the government is micromanaging that place right into the toilet. It is unfortunate because I believe that the KSO model of civilian and Navy cooperation is inherently better than the organizational structure at MTS. I can debate that if anyone is interested...

Good luck with your decision. As my favorite Leading Crew Chief once told me, "The only place worse than prototype is the shipyard during overhaul."

[mlslstephens]

Anyone have anything to add?

I do check-ins every Friday.  I see all types.  I think Prototype is the toughest shore duty in the Navy...that is why I'm here! 

[JustinHEMI05]

I struck my origional post because, perhaps my sarcasm is a little over the top...

Regardless, prototype is not a shore tour, despite what anyone tells you.  You will be doing both yourself and everyone else there a disservice if you think of it as such.

You mentioned a third leap.  Where you are in your career?

I say BS. It is indeed a shore tour for enlisted folk. Call the detailer and ask how it is listed. When I was asked about going to SHORE DUTY... it was presented as an option for SHORE DUTY... not sea duty. And, if I made the mistake of staying in the Navy... I would be on a submarine that goes to SEA right now. I didn't get SEA pay when I went to prototype. Do you know why? BECAUSE ITS SHORE DUTY! I didn't see any oceans around MARF. I didn't have to man the maneuvering watch. We certainly never got underway. We didn't even close the hatches and pretend we were underway for three days for fun. I went home everyday. It is indeed shore duty. We don't go on to some follow on shore tour like O gang (did).  It is comments like that... that made life miserable at NY. Not shore duty... that is both the funniest, and saddest thing I have read all day.

Justin

[JustinHEMI05]

Justin-
He is talking about the replacement for pro-pay (SDAP-$450).
Yeah, you get that. But no sea pay. Get ready for a pay cut.
As far as I know, no limit exists as far as SW vs SS, however, I remember (and this is a generalization, so take what you like out of it) that most of the sub guys were considered smarter than the surface guys. Again, take it for what it's worth.
As to the NY command structure - Justin got it in one. I never left shift work myself, and the of the top three, I never met the XO, but the CO and the CMC....I don't want to talk about it.
Feel free to PM me if you have other questions.

Gotcha thanks.

And to add my agreement, SS vs SW shouldn't matter. But sometimes it does and it really only depends on which warfare the HMFIC (AKA PMC) is.

Justin

[ddklbl]

I say BS. It is indeed a shore tour for enlisted folk. Call the detailer and ask how it is listed. When I was asked about going to SHORE DUTY... it was presented as an option for SHORE DUTY... not sea duty. And, if I made the mistake of staying in the Navy... I would be on a submarine that goes to SEA right now. I didn't get SEA pay when I went to prototype. Do you know why? BECAUSE ITS SHORE DUTY! I didn't see any oceans around MARF. I didn't have to man the maneuvering watch. We certainly never got underway. We didn't even close the hatches and pretend we were underway for three days for fun. I went home everyday. It is indeed shore duty. We don't go on to some follow on shore tour like O gang (did).  It is comments like that... that made life miserable at NY. Not shore duty... that is both the funniest, and saddest thing I have read all day.

Justin

As a matter of fact, I did close the hatches and got underway on the MTS, twice   Hurricanes Gaston and Ivan, I think…

Seriously, I stand by what I said.  Never on the boat was I pressured (coerced is too strong a word) into changing my leave dates because a PBTEX is that important.  My wife and I both agree that as crappy an experience the boat was, we were happier on it.  It felt like we had more time together on the boat.  Now, these are all subjective “feelings”, for whatever that is worth. 

A friend of mine and I had similar experiences with different people, with similar exchanges.  I’ll give you the Cliff Notes:  One of the TEOOWs was doing more than his fair share with a particular student.  He has come in early and stayed late for him.  Stood 8 of 8 through 11 of 8 watches with this guy and at a crew leadership meeting ask for the ETO (this is all his job, BTW, per the letter of the law) to stand the next watch with him because the student isn’t responding to help anymore.  What do you say when he says he can’t because he was taking Friday off for a three day, this was his shore duty after all.  He was right, it was his shore duty.  So he took his three day and the original TEOOW stayed late again. 

I say don’t treat Prototype like a shore duty because you can’t.  I wish you could.  That might help out in the retention battle (this broken record again…).   The fact of the matter is, there is too much work for too few people who actually care enough to take the initiative and try to make a better end product.  If they would classify prototype as neutral duty, or give everyone sub-pay, maybe that would be honest recognition for the work that guys do there.

We use euphemisms like challenging, tough and demanding to hide what we really mean.  Personally, professionally, physically and emotionally, it’s a ball buster.

Justin, you and I are fighting the same fight.  Maybe it’s just from different attitudes or perspectives.

[Rad Sponge]

Prototype is what it is, a hybrid bastard of a system and it can be no better than that. They are old reactors with old plants that need constant maintenance and oh by the way let's train a bunch of students by cycling the crap out of them.

If you want shore duty, go teach A-School or NPS, but I can't think of a single nuke shore billet that is normal and like some NAVAIR shore command working 7-3 with duty every other month or something.

Its freaking nuclear power, nuclear power and normal and easy are not usually in the same sentence with out modifiers like "far from"  and "not very".

Quit you freaking whining and go train a nub.

[ender17]

Recently, I got an email from our career counselor saying that my rate was undermanned at the prototypes

ALL rates are undermaned at prototype.  Mainly because ALL rates are undermaned overall.  That, and prototype sucks as any kind of duty.  I did 2 years of rotating shift work on a precom.  Why would I want to do 3 more?  I'm glad I got out of it, and went to a real shore duty.  Repairing those tin cans is a lot better than training students.  If they could ever get a working system it may not be so bad.  But no one (at least up in NY) will listen to anyone that actually has a good idea.

I went to NY prototype but would rather go do instructor duty at Charleston.

Good idea.  That and it be warmer down there. 

My understanding of current prototype instructor duty is as follows:
8 hour rotating shifts, days> swings > mids > training week
You have a short amount of time to qualify.
You do not get sea pay; however, you do get instructor pay.
You are treated far better than Staff Pickups are as a sea returnee.

Anyone have anything to add?

-Agreed on that it is closer to 9+ hour work day
-About 6 months I think overall to qualify....it may take you that long based on you being a SW and the differences between the plants.  However, you may be able to pick it up really quick.  I don't know.  Just do your best.
-Yay for pay cut.
-Treatment really depends on how you treat everyone else.  I have an ability to piss off anyone and everyone without even trying.  So needless to say, spu's got treated better than me.  An' spu's are really helpful in qualifying.  They don't know any other plant, and so can't mess it up when explaining something.  Be nice to the spu's....for a little while. 

[Wirebiter]

Prototype is what it is, a hybrid bastard of a system and it can be no better than that. They are old reactors with old plants that need constant maintenance and oh by the way let's train a bunch of students by cycling the crap out of them.

If you want shore duty, go teach A-School or NPS, but I can't think of a single nuke shore billet that is normal and like some NAVAIR shore command working 7-3 with duty every other month or something.

Try looking into instructor duty at one of the fleet training facilities in Bangor, Kings Bay, Groton, San Diego, or (my favorite), Hawai'i.  You won't get any special instructor pay, but you will teach nukes.  I thoroughly enjoyed my 3 years at NSTCP Pearl Harbor.  They time off was well worth the smaller pay-check.

[JustinHEMI05]

As a matter of fact, I did close the hatches and got underway on the MTS, twice   Hurricanes Gaston and Ivan, I think…

Seriously, I stand by what I said.  Never on the boat was I pressured (coerced is too strong a word) into changing my leave dates because a PBTEX is that important.  My wife and I both agree that as crappy an experience the boat was, we were happier on it.  It felt like we had more time together on the boat.  Now, these are all subjective “feelings”, for whatever that is worth. 

A friend of mine and I had similar experiences with different people, with similar exchanges.  I’ll give you the Cliff Notes:  One of the TEOOWs was doing more than his fair share with a particular student.  He has come in early and stayed late for him.  Stood 8 of 8 through 11 of 8 watches with this guy and at a crew leadership meeting ask for the ETO (this is all his job, BTW, per the letter of the law) to stand the next watch with him because the student isn’t responding to help anymore.  What do you say when he says he can’t because he was taking Friday off for a three day, this was his shore duty after all.  He was right, it was his shore duty.  So he took his three day and the original TEOOW stayed late again. 

I say don’t treat Prototype like a shore duty because you can’t.  I wish you could.  That might help out in the retention battle (this broken record again…).   The fact of the matter is, there is too much work for too few people who actually care enough to take the initiative and try to make a better end product.  If they would classify prototype as neutral duty, or give everyone sub-pay, maybe that would be honest recognition for the work that guys do there.

We use euphemisms like challenging, tough and demanding to hide what we really mean.  Personally, professionally, physically and emotionally, it’s a ball buster.

Justin, you and I are fighting the same fight.  Maybe it’s just from different attitudes or perspectives.

Ah now that there is some context I understand what you were saying.... and I see your points and agree. But the statement ITS NOT A SHORE DUTY alone stirs up some bad feelings in me.

Justin

[Roll Tide]

ALL rates are undermaned at prototype.  Mainly because ALL rates are undermaned overall. 

This reminds me of my opportunities for shore duty (way back when). I finally told the detailer, "You want me to do a job I hate in a place I hate for a pay cut. Which one of those can be adjusted?" Then it was back to sea for me...

One little note: you not only have a sea/shore rotation counter, but also an "operational nuclear reactor" counter. If you go to prototype, you may be eligible for new construction or other assignments. If you go somewhere without an operating reactor, your next slot is to an operating reactor. (Unless they have gotten rid of this retention prevention jewel...)

[shayne]

My understanding of current prototype instructor duty is as follows:
8 hour rotating shifts, days> swings > mids > training week
You have a short amount of time to qualify.
You do not get sea pay; however, you do get instructor pay.
You are treated far better than Staff Pickups are as a sea returnee.

Anyone have anything to add?

I enjoyed my time at S8G Prototype as a Sea Returnee better than my time at sea on the USS California.  At least at S8G I went home every night and my BAS (food money) made up for the lack of Sea Pay.  I may have stayed in the Navy if they would have let me do another shore tour at S8G.  I had no desire to go back to sea, especially since the Nuclear Cruiser was a thing of the past.

I got a sea waiver to go to prototype, it was about 18 months.  Upon arrival at S8G, I had 3 months to get all qualifications complete (In Rate).  I don't remember any special instructor pay, but I do remember that nuke pro-pay (SDAP) for surface nukes was more than the sub pro-pay.  Prototype paid all nuke pay at the surface rate regardless of SS or SW, so for the sub guys it was more money.  I worked about 9-10 hours everyday, but I had lots of extra duties to take care of.

[LDO4CNO]

One little note: you not only have a sea/shore rotation counter, but also an "operational nuclear reactor" counter. If you go to prototype, you may be eligible for new construction or other assignments. If you go somewhere without an operating reactor, your next slot is to an operating reactor. (Unless they have gotten rid of this retention prevention jewel...)

This little retention prevention jewel.... hasn't changed.  

JB

[flamatrix99]

All this talk really makes me grateful i got out.I didn't mind my tour at nuc repair at an IMA. They really tried to get me to go back to NY for prototype but there was no friggin way... Now I work Tues - Fri 10 hour days and life is good...

[Kev3399]

This reminds me of my opportunities for shore duty (way back when). I finally told the detailer, "You want me to do a job I hate in a place I hate for a pay cut. Which one of those can be adjusted?" Then it was back to sea for me...

One little note: you not only have a sea/shore rotation counter, but also an "operational nuclear reactor" counter. If you go to prototype, you may be eligible for new construction or other assignments. If you go somewhere without an operating reactor, your next slot is to an operating reactor. (Unless they have gotten rid of this retention prevention jewel...)

Interesting.....I have never officially seen anything like this on paper.(It would be a good retention tool) Losing my slate to a precom at the end of my prototype tour and then being told it was Japan(GW) or the Enterprise had a significant impact on my decision to leave the Navy. It seems the detailing process is more of who you know vice what you've done or where you have been in the past.(Other than the normal sea/shore requirement)

As for the discussion about Prototype being a shore tour.......Its definitely not a "normal" shore tour. The Navy needs to recognize that and reward the sailors who have a successful prototype tour. Thats not happening for the most part. I don't have all the answers, but I think they could start on the fiscal end and boost propay more and/or allow sea pay for all who are there. Not just the sub guys who have obliserved.

And yes.....I have been underway on the MTS-626 twice. Gotta love being the "Hurrican Crew X2". I believe Ivan left us down there for almost two days. The memories.....I clearly remember sleeping on the floor(similar comfort level of my rack on the ship) and waking up to go stand watch. I was asking myself, "Why do I feel like I am underway? And I am on a submarine that goes no where.......how have I ended up in my current situation?" 

[mlslstephens]

The Navy needs to recognize that and reward the sailors who have a successful prototype tour. Thats not happening for the most part.

Oh, that hurts.     Come on, I let you leave with terminal leave didn't I ? 

[Kev3399]

Oh, that hurts.     Come on, I let you leave with terminal leave didn't I ? 

I'll clarify and apologize for using one sentence to explain my thoughts.(never a good idea) I never said the people at prototype are the problem or the command doesn't do everything they can to reward sailors. I'm speaking big picture NaVLI4......Overall Navy. There are too many roadblocks to make it a normal shore tour. It seems the chain of command gets their hands tied way to often by outside organizations when trying to make it a better place. The Navy/NR won't let prototype change, or take new ideas and put them in motion. The mentality/fact that enlisted EOOWs(mostly CPOs) work for Bechtel Bettis contractors ruined the tail end of my tour. There are so many different ways to accomplish "Prototype" without wearing down the sailors to the point of complete exhaustion in a 40 month tour. I spent every single day of my tour on rotating shiftwork.....I was always too important to leave crew.(So they said  ) Never even did a 7 week offcrew instructor spot. I showed up minus 17 days of leave and went on terminal with about 53 days on the books. Thats not a rewarding tour. It was rewarding for me at times because I was successful professionally, however it wasn't rewarding for my family at all.

[RodBottom]

I couldn't agree with Kevin's post more. I was always "too important" to leave crew and watched as dirtbags and people that we didn't trust to stand watch went to cushy jobs in Offcrew/Maintenance/etc.

Think about this. If ONE person is too important to leave crew, then there is something wrong.

Speaking from a management/leadership perspective: I understand that you don't want to let good people go. The important part is recognizing accomplishment and hard work and then rewarding that....meaning time off or a better job. The typical Navy leader is limited on the perks that can be given out. Basically, letting someone leave work early if nothing is going on is one of the only things. I can't give you a raise/extra pay because you were on shiftwork for 3 1/2 years ON SHORE DUTY, and I can't give you a raise or overtime for over the top performance.

I can tell my bitterness is showing, but most of that is directed towards the upper chain at NY Protoype. These are, however, valid points common to Prototype duty in general, and are things that can be fixed by a FAIR job rotation schedule at the plants.

[xobxdoc]

You think the Navy will be fair? How long have you been in? The only time the Navy does anything that resembles fair is when it's time for you to re-enlist. Show them your displeasure by getting out and getting a job where hard work and a good work ethic will be rewarded. Their bonuses don't come close to the money you can make in the commercial nuclear field if that's where you stay. My second year with OT as an operator I made 102K with probably half the hours that someone on a boat would put in. The quality of life is a little better too.
Good luck.

[landlubber]

I couldn't agree with Kevin's post more. I was always "too important" to leave crew and watched as dirtbags and people that we didn't trust to stand watch went to cushy jobs in Offcrew/Maintenance/etc.

Think about this. If ONE person is too important to leave crew, then there is something wrong.

Speaking from a management/leadership perspective: I understand that you don't want to let good people go. The important part is recognizing accomplishment and hard work and then rewarding that....meaning time off or a better job. The typical Navy leader is limited on the perks that can be given out. Basically, letting someone leave work early if nothing is going on is one of the only things. I can't give you a raise/extra pay because you were on shiftwork for 3 1/2 years ON SHORE DUTY, and I can't give you a raise or overtime for over the top performance.

I can tell my bitterness is showing, but most of that is directed towards the upper chain at NY Prototype. These are, however, valid points common to Prototype duty in general, and are things that can be fixed by a FAIR job rotation schedule at the plants.

All I can say is, "I am sorry, and I would do it again." I was one of the Shift Sups and later one of the managers that had to make those unfair decisions. The unwritten plant practice that I approved of was this: You get only ONE good deal during your 3.5 years at KSO. If you are a hot-runner, you can get a dayshift job or qualify EOOW - not both. Now in practice, some people did get both, but I always felt that was wrong. (Also, I am talking about 1st tour sea-returnees, not E-7s and up.) 

The bottom line reasoning for screwing the good operators is this: What is the other option? Was I supposed to put ET1/SS Moron on RO over EWS every day? I think I would have caused the web to melt down with all of the critique reports I would have had to write. See description of said Moron in my earlier post: http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,12008.msg65677.html#msg65677
Operating, training on and maintaining those darn prototypes takes a lot of skill. Not because the plants are hard to operate (now that D1G and S3G are gone), but because of the constant ups-and-downs with 10+ students on watch.

My hat is off to all prototype staff instructors past, present and future. It is difficult and noble duty. The best part of my time there was working with the Navy folks. No BS.

[JustinHEMI05]

All I can say is, "I am sorry, and I would do it again." I was one of the Shift Sups and later one of the managers that had to make those unfair decisions. The unwritten plant practice that I approved of was this: You get only ONE good deal during your 3.5 years at KSO. If you are a hot-runner, you can get a dayshift job or qualify EOOW - not both. Now in practice, some people did get both, but I always felt that was wrong. (Also, I am talking about 1st tour sea-returnees, not E-7s and up.) 

The bottom line reasoning for screwing the good operators is this: What is the other option? Was I supposed to put ET1/SS Moron on RO over EWS every day? I think I would have caused the web to melt down with all of the critique reports I would have had to write. See description of said Moron in my earlier post: http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,12008.msg65677.html#msg65677
Operating, training on and maintaining those darn prototypes takes a lot of skill. Not because the plants are hard to operate (now that D1G and S3G are gone), but because of the constant ups-and-downs with 10+ students on watch.

My hat is off to all prototype staff instructors past, present and future. It is difficult and noble duty. The best part of my time there was working with the Navy folks. No BS.

So I can blame YOU for me never having the chance to get out of rotation after I qualified EOOW. Now the truth comes out. LOL

Justin

[RodBottom]

You think the Navy will be fair? How long have you been in? The only time the Navy does anything that resembles fair is when it's time for you to re-enlist. Show them your displeasure by getting out and getting a job where hard work and a good work ethic will be rewarded. Their bonuses don't come close to the money you can make in the commercial nuclear field if that's where you stay. My second year with OT as an operator I made 102K with probably half the hours that someone on a boat would put in. The quality of life is a little better too.
Good luck.

I was in for almost 9 years, to answer your first question.
Yeah...about the rest. I am already out and working for a major utility. I completely agree that the Navy is not required to be fair, however, if we are discussing the merits of Prototype (the original topic) then I am certainly letting the OP know that it isn't any different there than on a boat or ship.

[RodBottom]

All I can say is, "I am sorry, and I would do it again." I was one of the Shift Sups and later one of the managers that had to make those unfair decisions. The unwritten plant practice that I approved of was this: You get only ONE good deal during your 3.5 years at KSO. If you are a hot-runner, you can get a dayshift job or qualify EOOW - not both. Now in practice, some people did get both, but I always felt that was wrong. (Also, I am talking about 1st tour sea-returnees, not E-7s and up.) 

The bottom line reasoning for screwing the good operators is this: What is the other option? Was I supposed to put ET1/SS Moron on RO over EWS every day? I think I would have caused the web to melt down with all of the critique reports I would have had to write. See description of said Moron in my earlier post: http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,12008.msg65677.html#msg65677
Operating, training on and maintaining those darn prototypes takes a lot of skill. Not because the plants are hard to operate (now that D1G and S3G are gone), but because of the constant ups-and-downs with 10+ students on watch.

My hat is off to all prototype staff instructors past, present and future. It is difficult and noble duty. The best part of my time there was working with the Navy folks. No BS.

And there it is in a nutshell......
I don't really think you are sorry.
That aside, it sounds like you were one of the few that recognized the hard work put in by the few and at least tried to do something at times.

However, this post exemplifies the ingrained, flawed thinking that is common at NPTU, and indeed, is not confined to the Navy: People are tools to be used and nothing more. It is easy to forget that you were in the same place years ago trying to make ends meet and live your life as best you could without worrying about your job. The phrase "I would do it again" is indicative of a larger problem. So you have an ET1 Moron who doesn't know how to stand watch or isn't up to standards on his knowledge as an LPO. Ever heard of mentoring?!?

 But the solution continues to be a short-term one: I will just put in someone else. Disregarding the fact that the "someone else" is a person whose initiative and responsibility got them served, making the same money as ET1 Moron, who doesn't pull his weight.

My original response to your post was somewhat less polite.

However, I remembered that I am on a public forum, and that is the purpose: to share different viewpoints and advice based on ou own experience. I hope that I am not offending anyone by my opinion, but by the same token, I am not going to apologize for it. Agree to disagree.

OP, I hope that you are getting something out of this lively debate! From both sides, not just my narrow view

[Rad Sponge]

Overall: Prototype is a crazy hybrid muther and logic will never apply.

You are correct, you are a tool and a cog in the machine.

Deal.

[badger]

Wow, tons of replies. Way more than I expected

I'm right now on a ship that's in the yards. We've been in the yards for 2 years and will be in for a good while longer. I work about 9 hours a day average in 4 section duty. We're about to go into 12 hour shiftwork any day now. Anyone doing their homework can probably figure out where I'm at. I'm an EM2. I'm right now working on qualifying Load Dispatcher. I'm not qualified Watch Supervisor.

I originally wanted to go into recruiting; however, my EAOS and PRDs would be far enough off that I'd have to re-enlist again. No offense to anyone but I really don't want to do that.

Once I get out, I'd like to go work at a nuke plant doing roughly what I'm doing now. I don't mind the job, just the 80+ hour workweek. The idea of a 9 hour rotating shift seems pretty tame compared to 12 hour rotating shifts.

[shayne]

Once I get out, I'd like to go work at a nuke plant doing roughly what I'm doing now. I don't mind the job, just the 80+ hour workweek. The idea of a 9 hour rotating shift seems pretty tame compared to 12 hour rotating shifts.

Most plants, info taken from another topic, are working some type of 12 hour rotating shift.  It is only 3 or 4 days a week, couple more if you choose to work any overtime.  Outages are 6-12 hr days, but that is only for a few weeks every 18 or 24 months...

[sullied]

Ok, so I've read through this thread and I've seen mixed opinions about instructor pay at prototype. Someone mentioned $450/month in lieu of the nuke pro pay, but that sounds too good to be true. Is there anyone currently at prototype or that recently left that can clarify the subject of pro pay/instructor pay for me? I'll be reporting to Ballston Spa in July of next year. I'm also wondering where to live there. I'm married and have a baby on the way with a small dog and cat. Anyone have any suggestions of places to live that are really close to downtown Saratoga? I'm wanting to buy a house eventually, but I'm probably going to have to rent a place for a few months while we look for one to buy. Every apartment complex I've found seems to want a 12 month lease, but I'd rather do something more like 6 or less if possible. Anyone have any suggestions?

[ddklbl]

Ok, so I've read through this thread and I've seen mixed opinions about instructor pay at prototype. Someone mentioned $450/month in lieu of the nuke pro pay, but that sounds too good to be true. Is there anyone currently at prototype or that recently left that can clarify the subject of pro pay/instructor pay for me? I'll be reporting to Ballston Spa in July of next year. I'm also wondering where to live there. I'm married and have a baby on the way with a small dog and cat. Anyone have any suggestions of places to live that are really close to downtown Saratoga? I'm wanting to buy a house eventually, but I'm probably going to have to rent a place for a few months while we look for one to buy. Every apartment complex I've found seems to want a 12 month lease, but I'd rather do something more like 6 or less if possible. Anyone have any suggestions?

The NAVADMIN for SDAP lays out the rules for who gets how much.  There is no such thing as "insturctor pay".  Certain NEC's at the prototype UIC's are eligible for different levels of pay.  The range is from level SD-1 (around $150) to SD-6 (around $550).  Don't listen to the crap your detailer tells you.  The SDAP instruction is NEC and UIC dependent.  When you report to prototype and are in a training status, you will belong to daystaff.  Their UIC is SD-2 or something like that.  It won't be until you qualify staff instructor (notice I said staff and not RO, EO, MO) that you will get changed to a crews UIC. 

This SDAP instruction is the great pay equalizer.  Nuke Nubs that just show up to their boat are designated SD-1.  Based on the boats UIC, that is why nuke nub propay is $150.  Senior Supervisory Pay is considered SD-4 (maybe 5...)  It is doled out at $450 a month for fleet UIC's.  EDMC is a higher level still.  Like I said, It is NEC and UIC driven.  My numbers are a few years old, so they may not be accurate.  You should get the gist, though. 

*edit*  You ever wonder why E5 over 5 qualified EWS or E6 over 6 is such a big deal?  That is when you can petition to have your NEC changed from 3353 to 3363 or 3355 to 3365 etc...   You are assigned a higher SDAP because you now have a better NEC. 

Lookup NAVADMIN 140/07.  It has all you need to know.

[Kev3399]

Ok, so I've read through this thread and I've seen mixed opinions about instructor pay at prototype. Someone mentioned $450/month in lieu of the nuke pro pay, but that sounds too good to be true. Is there anyone currently at prototype or that recently left that can clarify the subject of pro pay/instructor pay for me? I'll be reporting to Ballston Spa in July of next year. I'm also wondering where to live there. I'm married and have a baby on the way with a small dog and cat. Anyone have any suggestions of places to live that are really close to downtown Saratoga? I'm wanting to buy a house eventually, but I'm probably going to have to rent a place for a few months while we look for one to buy. Every apartment complex I've found seems to want a 12 month lease, but I'd rather do something more like 6 or less if possible. Anyone have any suggestions?

I wouldn't buy a home for the 40 months you'll be in NY. I was in Charleston, and had a horrible time selling my home. The housing market down there sucks right now. Maybe somone one from NY can comment on the housing market up there? I wouldn't buy a home unless you're prepared for the possibility of having double payments after you leave NY. Took me several months to sell my home after I left and I felt lucky. My two cents......

ddklbl is correct on the propay.

[DDMurray]

Here's the story on SDAP (From the current NAVADMIN - 140/07).  Find your NEC, then read the applicable notes.  If you're at NPTU/MTS as an instructor (or instructor in training), you're entitled to $450 unless you don't have the supervisory NEC.  Always watch your LES when you qualify because they stop, then re-start your SDAP when you shift to qualified staff status.  At my previous two shore tours, my SDAP stopped, but didn't re-start.

N.  N133D (NUCLEAR TRAINED) USN:
BILLET           PAY LEVEL    BILLET IDENTIFICATION                  NOTE
3353/4/5/6     SD-2-150     NUCLEAR PROPULSION PLANT           58,59
                                      OPERATOR
                    SD-5-375
3363/4/5/6     SD-4-300     NUCLEAR PROPULSION PLANT            59,60,
                                      SUPERVISOR                                  61
                    SD-5-375
                    SD-6-450
3383/4/5/6     SD-2-150     NUCLEAR PROPULSION PLANT             58,59
                                      OPERATOR
                    SD-5-375
3393/4/5/6     SD-4-300     NUCLEAR PROPULSION PLANT             59,60,
                                      SUPERVISOR                                   61
                    SD-5-375
                    SD-6-450


58) A) SD-2-150 WHEN ASSIGNED AND SERVING IN THE SPECIAL DUTY
ASSIGNMENT SKILL LESS THOSE LISTED IN 58B (EXCEPT 33X9).
    B) SD-5-375 WHEN ASSIGNED AND SERVING IN THE REPAIR DEPARTMENT OF A
NUCLEAR-REPAIR-CAPABLE SUBMARINE TENDER.
59) WHILE SERVING IN ANY 335X, 336X, 338X, OR 339X BILLET (EXCEPT 33X9).
PERSONNEL WHO ARE IN EXCESS OF ASSIGNED BILLETS IN THE ENGINEERING OR
REACTOR DEPARTMENTS OF A NUCLEAR POWERED WARSHIP OR REPAIR DEPARTMENT
OF A NUCLEAR-REPAIR-CAPABLE INTERMEDIATE MAINTENANCE ACTIVITY OR STAFF
OF A NUCLEAR PIPELINE TRAINING ACTIVITY, OR ASSIGNED TO A DEPARTMENT OF
ENERGY NAVAL REACTORS FACILITY ARE ENTITLED TO THE APPROPRIATE LEVEL OF
SDAP.
60) A) SD-4-300 WHEN ASSIGNED AND SERVING IN THE SPECIAL DUTY
ASSIGNMENT SKILL LESS THOSE LISTED IN 60B OR 60C (EXCEPT 33X9).
    B) SD-5-375 WHEN ASSIGNED AND SERVING IN THE REPAIR DEPARTMENT OF A
NUCLEAR-REPAIR-CAPABLE SUBMARINE TENDER.
    C) SD-5-375 WHEN SERVING IN AN SSN, SSBN, SSGN, CVN, SUBMARINE NR-1,
OR PRECOMMISSIONING UNIT.
    D) SD-5-375 WHEN SERVING IN A DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY NAVAL REACTORS
FACILITY.
61) SD-6-450 WHEN ASSIGNED AND SERVING AS STAFF OR STAFF IN TRAINING AT
A NUCLEAR POWER TRAINING UNIT.  ELIGIBLE UICS ARE 30896, 47723, 47801,
49230, AND 62986.
    A) AT A DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY NAVAL REACTORS FACILITY LOCATED AT A
NUCLEAR POWER TRAINING UNIT. ELIGIBLE UICS ARE 44627 AND 47785.
    B) AS REACTOR DEPARTMENT MASTER CHIEF (SURFACE) OR ENGINEERING
DEPARTMENT MASTER CHIEF (SUBMARINE) ONBOARD A NUCLEAR POWERED WARSHIP. 
SPECIFIC APPROVAL MUST BE OBTAINED FROM THE CHIEF OF NAVAL OPERATIONS
(N133D) FOR THE SAILOR TO BE ELIGIBLE FOR THIS LEVEL OF PAY.  DURING
PERIODS OF TURNOVER, THE INCUMBENT WILL MAINTAIN THIS LEVEL UNTIL
RELIEVED.  ONCE RELIEVED, THE SAILOR WILL BE ENTITLED TO SD-5-375 WHILE
SERVING ONBOARD. 

Message available at: http://www.npc.navy.mil/NR/rdonlyres/1FA4E7B0-6C7E-4033-9745-3FDA7A3F4653/0/NAV07140.txt

[DDMurray]

subnukederek thank you for the post.

But, my eyes are hurting now.  I know you cut and pasted that section but it is in all caps shipmate.  And, that is the equivalent of screaming at someone on the forum.

For a list of other forum rules check out my signature.

Thanks your friendly moderator.

Jason

Sorry, won't happen again.
Derek

[sullied]

Ok, so I understand that there is no "instructor pay"...just the normal SDAP that I've always gotten. So, for myself (E-6, 3383), I'll still only get the $150 that I've always gotten until I'm over 6 years...correct? I used to think that there was a way to get the supervisory NEC after only 5 years if you qualified watch supervisor, but everyone on my ship is saying that that is wrong. I guess it doesn't really matter for me since I wont be watch supervisor before my 6 year point due to transferring so early.

Well, aside from that, anyone up in Saratoga have any information on the housing market and/or apartment info?

Rob

[DDMurray]

Ok, so I understand that there is no "instructor pay"...just the normal SDAP that I've always gotten. So, for myself (E-6, 3383), I'll still only get the $150 that I've always gotten until I'm over 6 years...correct? I used to think that there was a way to get the supervisory NEC after only 5 years if you qualified watch supervisor, but everyone on my ship is saying that that is wrong. I guess it doesn't really matter for me since I wont be watch supervisor before my 6 year point due to transferring so early.

Well, aside from that, anyone up in Saratoga have any information on the housing market and/or apartment info?

Rob

If you qualify as EWS (or equivalent) and have demonstrated the experience and leadership required to supervise propulsion plant operations, your CO can recommend approval of the supervisory NEC at your 5 year point.  As previously stated in one of the posts on this thread, it's in the NEC manual.  I'm stuck at home on convalescent leave I looked up the reference on line and cut and pasted it below (look at paragraph 7).  If you qualify ERS at NPTU and reach the six year point, you should be also be eligible for the higher SDAP, but I'm not sure how that works at NPTU.   I'm sure someone in your COC must have recommended qualifying watch supervisor prior to rolling to shore duty.  It used to be an unwritten rule that the detailer wouldn't roll you early to shore duty unless you had qualified EWS.
    From the good old days department, nukes didn't used to draw "pro pay" unless they were "career designated", meaning they were obligated greater than six years.  That was another incentive for STAR re-enlistment:  you got E-5, plus an extra $100.00 a month, plus the C school.  Sorry to digress.  Good luck at NPTU.

Derek Murray

3393-3396 Surface Ship Nuclear Propulsion Plant Supervisors
Fully qualified by virtue of seniority, experience and demonstrated proficiency (including specified watchstation qualification) to supervise the operation and maintenance of surface ship nuclear propulsion plants.
NOTES:
1. Assigned upon recommendation by the Commanding Officer to Petty Officer Second Class and above who have completed six or more years active naval service and are currently qualified the specified watchstations. For paygrade E-5, the Commanding Officer should ensure all military and professional requirements for advancement to E-6 are completed before forwarding recommendation. (Include watchstation qualification dates and completion of advancement requirements on NAVPERS 1221/6.)
2. Members serving in senior nuclear billets (NEC 339X) at commands where the specified watchstations do not exist are considered to have satisfied the watch qualification criteria if they were previously qualified on the required watchstations. Personnel who are advanced to CPO while serving at these commands may continue to be eligible for NEC 339X based on previous attainment of watchstation qualification required for paygrade E-6. In all cases, previous watchstation qualification must be documented in the member's service record.
3. Members with NEC 339X who are transferred to a nuclear powered ship and assigned in a senior nuclear billet will retain NEC 339X for a maximum of six months. If the member has requalified on the applicable watchstations NEC 339X may be retained. If the member has not requalified in six months, the Commanding Officer is directed to recommend a change in NEC 339X to 338X or removal of NEC as appropriate. (See OPNAVINST 1220.1 Series for guidance.)
4. First Class Petty Officers with NEC 339X attached to nuclear powered ships who are advanced to CPO will retain their NEC while completing qualification as Engineering Watch Supervisor or Propulsion Plant Watch Supervisor. OPNAVINST 1220.1A (NOTAL) specifies time limits for attainment of required watchstation qualification.
5. Members with NEC 3389 who are scheduled to be transferred to a nuclear powered ship are screened by Chief of Naval Operations (N13) per NAVMILPERSCOMINST 1540.1 Series. Based upon this screen, NEC 338X or NEC 339X will be assigned. Chief of Naval Operations (N13) will specify requalification time limits for the individual by letter to his Commanding Officer. NAVMILPERSCOMINST 1540.1. Series and OPNAVINST 1220.1 Series (NOTAL) apply. Commanding officers should recommend NEC change to 338x as a step toward possible NEC removal recommendation when personnel with NEC 339X are delinquent in requalification. (See OPNAVINST 1220.1 Series for guidance.)
6. Commanding Officers shall recommend NEC 338X in the case of those members with NEC 339X who are unable to maintain the necessary proficiency and leadership skills for continued assignment in senior nuclear power supervisory positions but who are still considered satisfactory nuclear propulsion plant operators. Those personnel who are unable to regain the necessary proficiency and leadership skills for supervisory positions should be considered for removal of their nuclear operator NEC 338X. (See OPNAVINST 1220.1 Series for guidance.)
7. On each ship there may be a few, singularly outstanding individuals who have clearly demonstrated that they are able to be effective supervisors prior to having six years time in service. In order to recognize the exceptional performance of these individuals, Commanding Officers may recommend a waiver of the six year time in service requirement to a minimum of five years time in service for supervisory NEC (339X). This recommendation will be on a case basis for those individuals who, in addition to meeting the requirements of paygrade, technical ability and leadership have qualified as Engineering Watch Supervisor (EWS) or Propulsion Plant Watch Supervisor (PPWS). The waiver of the time in service requires the approval of the Bureau of Naval Personnel (N13).
8. Submit recommendation for change or removal of NECs for Enlisted Nuclear Propulsion Operators to the Chief of Naval Operations (N13) who will resolve the NEC change recommendation. (See OPNAVINST 1220.1 Series for additional guidance.)

from:   http://www.npc.navy.mil/NR/rdonlyres/797AB620-DD8C-436A-917C-77C6CDBF8C06/0/NECManualOct07.pdf

[shayne]

Ok, so I understand that there is no "instructor pay"...just the normal SDAP that I've always gotten. So, for myself (E-6, 3383), I'll still only get the $150 that I've always gotten until I'm over 6 years...correct? I used to think that there was a way to get the supervisory NEC after only 5 years if you qualified watch supervisor, but everyone on my ship is saying that that is wrong. I guess it doesn't really matter for me since I wont be watch supervisor before my 6 year point due to transferring so early.

Well, aside from that, anyone up in Saratoga have any information on the housing market and/or apartment info?

Rob

The Navy Housing in Saratoga was very good in the past.  Try them.

[badger]

Funny thing happened today.
Apparently my detailer sent my career counselor an email wanting to know if I was still interested in going to NPTU Charleston. Since I'm not EWS qualified and trying to transfer at my 3 year onboard point, I wasn't even sure if I'd get picked up much less having a detailer actively trying to get me to transfer.

I guess they really want EMs down there.

Anyone working in Charleston with advice on where to get an apartment and where the best beer is? 

[PapaBear765]

Funny thing happened today.
Apparently my detailer sent my career counselor an email wanting to know if I was still interested in going to NPTU Charleston. Since I'm not EWS qualified and trying to transfer at my 3 year onboard point, I wasn't even sure if I'd get picked up much less having a detailer actively trying to get me to transfer.

I guess they really want EMs down there.

Anyone working in Charleston with advice on where to get an apartment and where the best beer is? 

I'm an ET1(SS) on the 635, and there's an EM1(SW) that got here as an E-5 and made E-6 right away.  He's now the Training PO for my crew and an very good electrical operator and instructor.  If the boat wasn't going into a 9-month S/D for PEMA (pier side extended maint. availability), then he'd probably be put into EWS quals by now.  Going back to one of your original questions, SW v. SS doesn't mean s---.  It's all how you present yourself and how seriously you take your quals.

For your most important question so far, the bar in the Citadel Mall has an awesome old English pub atmosphere with a lot of pool tables and great selection of beers.  Can't remember the name.

<modified by moderator>

[PWHoppe]

PapaBear,

Thank you for your service and Welcome to NukeWorker Please take the time to look at the forum rules (specifically #6) there is a link at the bottom of my signature. Thanks for your help with this 

your friendly neighborhood moderator