Navy Nuc oops!

[Phurst]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/22/sub.misconduct/index.html

ELT? Unheard of! Keel haul comes to mind.

[LDO4CNO]

Any ELT's that know how to sample looking for orders?

[Roll Tide]

I remember in another thread an EOOW was challenged on his ability to adequately screen out BS from the ELTs. Looks like their is a reason you must have a high level of discrimination in evaluating what has come up.

Never give away your signature as a rubber stamp. It is your vow.

[rlbinc]

Why DO they call it RADIO Chemistry, anyway?

He's an E.L.T.
and he squats to p**
and he don't do d*** all day
and I guess you heard he's a lazy t***...

(another old steaming song comes to mind...)



Hey watch officers, if you don't have to charge every few weeks, or if there's no yellow bag trash somewhere, someone must be blowing off samples.

[Rad Sponge]

All I can say is,

How the fudge did this get out of nucleonics?

Also,

How freaking hard is it to be the underway or duty ELT that you can't do a primary on a daily basis?

[tonynuke]

It takes alot of people to blow this off for this long.  Amazing.  Actually not amazing, I saw the writing on the wall, the downhill slide in the nuclear talent pool.  I left when I had the chance, but it was a heck of a ride.

[Cycoticpenguin]

hmm.. apparently a LT recieved NJP... anyone else see something wrong with that? :-D

Is gundecking really a big problem in the fleet? I hear about lots of elt's getting in trouble for it.

[Rad Sponge]

hmm.. apparently a LT recieved NJP... anyone else see something wrong with that? :-D

Is gundecking really a big problem in the fleet? I hear about lots of elt's getting in trouble for it.

Its easy for anyone to get in trouble with log keeping in general especially RC and RL div because these two divisions make up the bulk of the ORSE review. You constantly have to stay vigilant with the nuke notes, ACNs, Squadron letters, and a host of other messages and bullcrap that is not in the manuals to ensure your records are in compliance with whatever wam-o-dyne idea some desk jockey at NR comes up with to justify his existence.

[JustinHEMI05]

I remember in another thread an EOOW was challenged on his ability to adequately screen out BS from the ELTs. Looks like their is a reason you must have a high level of discrimination in evaluating what has come up.

Never give away your signature as a rubber stamp. It is your vow.

That would be me and I never signed ANYTHING easily... especially ELT or RC div paper work. But you're right, I caught a lot of crap for it here at first. This just adds more logs on the the flames against ELTs. It really is sad because I like to believe that for the most part, ELTs are normal, good and honest. But, those few bad eggs out there muck up so royally bad that the spot light shines bright and wide and ruins things for everyone. The last few years at MARF and S8G haven't been good for ELTs for very similar reasons.

Seriously, how Fin hard is it to put on your costume and turn a few valves?

Justin

[JustinHEMI05]

hmm.. apparently a LT recieved NJP... anyone else see something wrong with that? :-D

Is gundecking really a big problem in the fleet? I hear about lots of elt's getting in trouble for it.

Its not just ELTs my friend. But, don't be discouraged. I would guess that 98% of the people are doing the right thing out there. But its those few that when caught, really bring down the pain for everyone. You will see the spot light shine heavily on things like this, that it will seem like everyone is doing it. I hope you especially, as a young impressionable nub (and I mean that in a good way), sees just how stupid this is and realize that it isn't worth it just to save a few minutes or a little work. You will get caught eventually if you follow the red brick road. And just like drinking and driving, you can't afford it.

Justin

[Kev3399]

Never give away your signature as a rubber stamp. It is your vow.

I can agree with everyone about this topic when standing EOOW. Especially ELT and RC Div stuff. It amazed me at how bad some ELTs really are. I never really knew it until I started signing all their paperwork. One little challenge and usually they would fold and the facts of the matter would come out. It amazes me that this problem on the Hampton went for so long. It appears to me that it wasn't just 6 ELTs and one officer......most likely an entire Engineering Dept lack of care and ownership. What about their check chem program??? Non existent apparently. Thats a problem from the CO on down.

As far as a LT recieving NJP....thats possible except its called Admirals Mast. I believe they get a piece of paper in their service record and that spells out the end of their naval career. I might be wrong though. Anyone else out there got better info on this?

As far as gundecking and the talk of ELTs getting in trouble as a common occurence.....The current Admiral has ELT performance as one of his 3 major priorities. This was put out well before this incident and it is a major problem across the program. I can only imagine the atmosphere in his office when he was getting briefed on this "oops".

[Marvin]

We had a few sleazy nukes on my ship (over 20 years ago).  ELT's are most apt to radio logs and to cause problems when they radio logs since it's probably not lube oil cooler outlet temperature we are talking about and since real chemistry takes a lot more work than reading a gauge.  However, hard work is never an excuse for falsifying information or blowing off a sample.

Truth be known, this has been going on for many years and we have been fixing it without getting the zeroes involved.  When a friend copped an attitude and started getting sleazy, we covered for them while letting them know that we weren't going to stand for it.  There was more than one occassion when I covered for a sleazy (translated unhappy) crewmate to keep his butt out of the brig while controlling the chemistry that he blew off.

It sounds like there's something much bigger here than a couple of ELT's getting sleazy.  Sounds like there are latent organizational weaknesses and a large group of unhappy shipmates that stopped challenging one another to "do the right thing."  If the Navy's investigational team concludes that it's just a bunch of bad apples engaging in misconduct, then they are as bad or worse than the bad apples and aren't really fixing the bigger problem.  It's not a bunch of bad apples, it is a bad barrel.

I feel for these guys and the barrel they are in.  I hope the rest of you active duty ELT's (and nukes in general) don't stop challenging each other to "do the right thing."  It's what Rickover would have wanted, and it's what our buddies need and deserve.

Marvin

[Rad Sponge]

We had a few sleazy nukes on my ship (over 20 years ago).  ELT's are most apt to radio logs and to cause problems when they radio logs since it's probably not lube oil cooler outlet temperature we are talking about and since real chemistry takes a lot more work than reading a gauge.  However, hard work is never an excuse for falsifying information or blowing off a sample.

Truth be known, this has been going on for many years and we have been fixing it without getting the zeroes involved.  When a friend copped an attitude and started getting sleazy, we covered for them while letting them know that we weren't going to stand for it.  There was more than one occassion when I covered for a sleazy (translated unhappy) crewmate to keep his butt out of the brig while controlling the chemistry that he blew off.

It sounds like there's something much bigger here than a couple of ELT's getting sleazy.  Sounds like there are latent organizational weaknesses and a large group of unhappy shipmates that stopped challenging one another to "do the right thing."  If the Navy's investigational team concludes that it's just a bunch of bad apples engaging in misconduct, then they are as bad or worse than the bad apples and aren't really fixing the bigger problem.  It's not a bunch of bad apples, it is a bad barrel.

I feel for these guys and the barrel they are in.  I hope the rest of you active duty ELT's (and nukes in general) don't stop challenging each other to "do the right thing."  It's what Rickover would have wanted, and it's what our buddies need and deserve.

Marvin

There is hardly an excuse anymore because the bulk of the logs are now computer generated and even the secondary system is automated for analyzing samples.

I think one of fundamental flaws with Sub ELT life is the workload. My experience was that there never was a chance to breathe.

Having a robust check-chem program, a robust Audit and Surveillance Program, a robust training program, etc etc means you are never done with paper work. It is insane, utterly insane, and utterly impossible to get it all done, but the appearance of propriety is all that matters in the end and if you get an AA, or E on your ORSE.

Oh yeah, and all the actual work that has to get done, spending your off watch doing an observation on a maint evolution that is being done just for the observation and not because the system actually needs to get breached.

I don't condone gundecking, but I understand why it happens.

So, if there are some NR/SQN spies out there reading this, take a good look at how ludicrous the amount of bs that goes into having a successful RL div and for what?

Let's not forget on top of all the RL div stuff, the ELT has to play mechanic and participate in all the M-Div training, PMS, tag outs, etc and stay on top of mechanics who can't seem to figure out how to do a turbidity.

I am thankful I became an ELT, because it gave 3 distinct skill sets that are employed SEPARATELY in the commericial world.

Looking back, I would not want to go through all that crap again unless some serious overhauls were made to the administration of RL div.

[kwicslvr]

I can't agree more with the above post...

[rlbinc]

I understand why it happens, too.

It's due to lack of integrity.

It's not unique to the Navy or high workload environments.

[jowlman]

I guess this is the quality of the program when the training commands use the "You're a pump not a Filter" mentality. Admiral Rickover must be spinning in his grave.

[Rad Sponge]

I understand why it happens, too.

It's due to lack of integrity.

It's not unique to the Navy or high workload environments.

I am not condoning what the RL Div did, I am making a general observation of what I saw during my time. Most of the stuff I did was utter bs. The actual work that has to get done to be in compliance with the Radiological Controls for Ships and the Water Chemistry Manual are easy peasey. I loved that stuff. I prided myself on memorizing those manuals.

Water Chemistry and RP are second nature to me. I see commercial RP and commercial Chem and it makes sense. The other day I covered the breach of a big ass Main Steam Isolation of a BWR and covered the extraction of the valve, crane op, and all that. It was easy, even with NOS, GE, NRC, and House watching me. Survey, brief, wrap it, tag it, outta here. No nonsense, no bs A to B. No one got crapped up, no spills, and here's your survey.

If that was the Navy, we'd still be briefing it.

In retrospect, it wasn't the books that made things difficult, it was all the superfluous mumbo jumbo that some auditor or assist or some message or "industry best practice" came up with. I was constantly having to cover my ass and that of my division because RL div became an interpretation and not a compliance.

Unless you've ever been a LELT, you got nothing to opine here other than gundecking is wrong.

Yeah, we all get that.

[JustinHEMI05]

I am not condoning what the RL Div did, I am making a general observation of what I saw during my time. Most of the stuff I did was utter bs. The actual work that has to get done to be in compliance with the Radiological Controls for Ships and the Water Chemistry Manual are easy peasey. I loved that stuff. I prided myself on memorizing those manuals.

Water Chemistry and RP are second nature to me. I see commercial RP and commercial Chem and it makes sense. The other day I covered the breach of a big ass Main Steam Isolation of a BWR and covered the extraction of the valve, crane op, and all that. It was easy, even with NOS, GE, NRC, and House watching me. Survey, brief, wrap it, tag it, outta here. No nonsense, no bs A to B. No one got crapped up, no spills, and here's your survey.

If that was the Navy, we'd still be briefing it.

In retrospect, it wasn't the books that made things difficult, it was all the superfluous mumbo jumbo that some auditor or assist or some message or "industry best practice" came up with. I was constantly having to cover my ass and that of my division because RL div became an interpretation and not a compliance.

Unless you've ever been a LELT, you got nothing to opine here other than gundecking is wrong.

Yeah, we all get that.

I was a LELT on a submarine and at prototype, and I say that there is no excuse for anything ELTs do wrong in this light. The job ain't that hard and any ELT that says its too hard to meet the standards probably shouldn't have been an ELT in the first place. I agree though that with every new monitor, orse board, or JO on a mission that has an opinion on how things should be done, you get frustrated and fed up. But if you stick to the letter of the law... the books... you can tell all the opinions to pack sand. I did that frequently, which wasn't necessarily the best thing for me or my career sometimes but as long I was right and my people were happy... then I was happy. And it isn't hard to stick to the books.

Justin

[Rad Sponge]

Yep Justin, you nailed it.

The books were easy to follow, but making life easy for yourself and your crew was a balancing act.

Throw in your career and how much you wanted to advance and be ranked as a First Class and you just added a whole new layer of subjectivity to administration of RL div.

Go with the flow and make ORSE/SQN/ENG/EDMC happy or pride yourself on being "right" and going nowhere.

Aint it grand.

[rlbinc]

Unless you've ever been a LELT, you got nothing to opine here other than gundecking is wrong.

Yeah, I see what you mean. After thirty years in the industry, do I know...

[Longhornfan]

This was way more than an RL Div/ELT problem.  How do you go 30 days without taking a primary sample and NO ONE notices?  Not the EOOW?  Not the EWS?  Not the EO waiting for the valves to be called in?  The mechanic expecting to read for the valve operation?  Sorry...this was an entire department that lost its integrity.  http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,154859,00.html?ESRC=eb.nl

No excuse can justify that.

[Rad Sponge]

Yeah, I see what you mean. After thirty years in the industry, do I know...

I don't know, do you know?

The discussion I am trying to address here is not about grand ideologies, honor, courage, and commitment, and all that, but a root cause analysis of what could of happened.

ELT performance was on the front burner when I was in (96-05) and in my last year, on my last deployment, I spent every Sunday with the CO doing ORSE review because the audit before I came on board showed gross negligence and integrity issues.

I came on board at 12:00 PM during an ONREP, checked in, met everyone, and then by 6:00 PM went down before the mid-watch. I was in a critique that night because ELTs were falsifying TLD reader paperwork.

Also, found out that the other crew had two months worth of routine survey maps that were created in a day!! I mean, the underway ELT did nothing for about two months and then he and his CRA had a survey fest in the lab. How you can go two months and no one asks where the survey maps are? Systematic failure.

So basically I spent a entire patrol figuring out what was bs and what was real. I had no clue, but it all had to be made ready for ORSE.

I told my CRA that the other crew's records were a fantasy and what he did with that, I have no idea. I re-injured my back and had to leave the boat and eventually the Navy.

It was the worst two months of my Navy career, but the best learning experience of it all.

I don't think the USS Hartford is an isolated example of bad ELTs. 5-6 ELTs just don't decide to conspire against the machine.

I don't think there is an overall problem with the quality of students.

I do think that being an ELT is the hardest administratively controlled job in the nuclear navy on par with RC-div.

I do think an overhaul change needs to be made and all the little notes and palaver out there needs to be incorporated into the books or dumped out the Aft Drain Pump.

To quote Chris Rock:

"I don't agree with OJ killing his wife, but I understand it"

[rlbinc]

I don't think the USS Hartford is an isolated example of bad ELTs. 5-6 ELTs just don't decide to conspire against the machine.

I don't think there is an overall problem with the quality of students.

I think one of these statements conflicts with the other. Either this problem is isolated to a specific set of circumstances - or it is pervasive and occurs more often than detection reveals.

I agree with the first statement and disagree with the second. Science and experience tells me that 10% of an iceberg is visible. Far more hazard exists than reaches the light of day. Human Performance is based on keeping a very low threshold of detection and learning as much about latent factors as we can.

I was in RC Division in the 1970's. We didn't blow off anything. I imagined that a transfer to Leavenworth would still beat the hell out of Fantail Justice, which occurred occasionally.

As an example of standards back then, I saw an RO and a Watch Officer kicked out of the program for altering an ECP by 5 inches at the request of the Watch Officer. The Reactor went critical a few tenths of an inch below  the -3% delta rho calculation. ( We calculated ECPs at -3% and +2%, and had to go critical between the two.)The original RO calc was correct, but he didn't bother to stick by his numbers or expend the ten minutes to walk the Watch Officer through the tax form.

Integrity is doing a job as correctly as capable and remaining professional enough in the aftermath to either justify your method or accept correction, if in error. Saying "have it your way" isn't part of the deal.

Only Doctors get to bury their mistakes.

I remember our CO using the words, "What good is the mind of our best Reactor Operator if he lacks the gonads to do the right thing? Guys, we need both."

I guess they need to teach Sunday School in the Nuclear Program...
"For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known."

[Duke Nuker]

The discussion I am trying to address here is not about grand ideologies, honor, courage, and commitment, and all that, but a root cause analysis of what could of happened.

Unless you are Root Cause Qualified and unless you have direct access to the records and people involved, you are involved in the same conjecture as everyone else.

It happened, it sucks that good people are probably going to be rolled up in the housecleaning, but we aren't gonna fix it out here.....Superhero or not.

I was in during the 80's so do I know anyway.

[ddklbl]

Jason, I don't know what point you're trying to make.  Are you saying the overabundance of "help" (i.e. policy notes, the NPIM rolodex of random information, squadron letters) is to blame for this situation?

[93-383]

Okay, as a former LELT, RCSS, etc.,.....Man! Things have changed,...

To wit,...We became aware of an MM-ELT gundecking his SG level logs underway in AMR2LL (remember the stupid, almost never accurate Yarways they use to stick in front of the throttleman),...
proved it, charged him, masted him, denuked, defrocked, desubed, degone, dedone,...
we went port and stbd in AMR2LL for the rest of the spec op, it was a long spec op, and we knew we'd be P & S before we busted the big dummy, that was even mentioned to us by the bull nuke when the gundecking was still just a suspicion and not a fact and maybe we should just "mentor" the situation,...
we just told the bull nuke "if he's gundecking the simple stuff, where else is he screwing us?, nah, he's gotta face the music and we need to be able to trust the last watchstander",... mistakes are mitigable, malicious malfeasance knows no end,...
in years since I've wondered if the bull nuke was just gauging the integrity of the RL division rank and file,...

like I said,...Things have changed,...I don't remember entire nuke divisions going to mast back then, maybe I was just too busy to notice,...

Sadly that would not happen today. The standards of the program have sliped to a dangerous level. Due to manning the schools are passing everyone. I had an MM that admitidly had failed and ack-boarded every phase of the pipline. He was a danger to himself and others. However the command would not consider kicking him out (and yes he gave good cause more than once, perfect example this was a guy who failed to recognise a flooding casualty, I'm not kidding) the answer was we need the people. There are still good people in the program but the numbers are dwindling.

[JustinHEMI05]

Sadly that would not happen today. The standards of the program have sliped to a dangerous level. Due to manning the schools are passing everyone. I had an MM that admitidly had failed and ack-boarded every phase of the pipline. He was a danger to himself and others. However the command would not consider kicking him out (and yes he gave good cause more than once, perfect example this was a guy who failed to recognise a flooding casualty, I'm not kidding) the answer was we need the people. There are still good people in the program but the numbers are dwindling.

Reminds me of the movie idiocracy. If you haven't seen it you should rent it, you will laugh. The premise is that all the smart people are too busy to have families all the while the not so smart people continue to breed like bunnies, and in a few decades... everyone is an idiot. In the navy nuke program, the smart people are getting out, the dumb people are staying in... and the number of dumb people entering the program way outnumber the smart people entering due to waivers. Eventually... uggg I don't want to even think about it.

Justin

[Roll Tide]

I am glad to see that this has impacted more than just RL Division and the CRA.

Associated Press - October 26, 2007 7:25 AM ET

LOS ANGELES (AP) - The Navy says it has relieved the commanding officer of the nuclear-powered submarine USS Hampton of his duty because of a loss of confidence in his leadership.

Commander Michael Portland was dismissed from his job yesterday after Navy investigators found the ship failed to do daily safety checks on its nuclear reactor for a month and falsified records to cover up the omission.

http://www.wdbj7.com/global/story.asp?s=7269247&ClientType=Printable


But I also agree that the Navy needs to re-examine what is important, and get rid of the fluff.

BTW, I was not the LELT but I was an RCSS. I wasn't an ELT, but my friends were. Don't worry, I am fully qualified to comment on this (though I have been out for 12 years). And I would love to have access to the real information in order to perform a root cause on this.

[Kev3399]

Reminds me of the movie idiocracy. If you haven't seen it you should rent it, you will laugh. The premise is that all the smart people are too busy to have families all the while the not so smart people continue to breed like bunnies, and in a few decades... everyone is an idiot. In the navy nuke program, the smart people are getting out, the dumb people are staying in... and the number of dumb people entering the program way outnumber the smart people entering due to waivers. Eventually... uggg I don't want to even think about it.

I disagree Justin. Although I will agree with the standards dropping.....and the downturn in quality from the training pipeline. There are still alot of really smart and motivated people in the program. They keep on reenlisting and doing the patrols for all the right reasons. I good friend of mine just reenlisted the other day. He could have found a better paying job outside the Navy, but he decided to stay for the right reasons. Its unfortunate that the wrong collection of leadership was in place on this submarine. It is still amazing that this could happen and I provide no excuse for the actions of this Engineering Dept. However, to say that the program will just completely fail in the future is narrow minded. I trained some incredibly talented individuals in Charleston, and some who could barely tie their own shoes. I'm not proud of the latter, but I did the best I could with what was given to me. Unfortunately the training pipeline is designed to keep everyone now, we did the best we could in Charleston. I have a high degree of trust in the future Navy leadership to separate the good ones from the bad ones. Its not hard, a piss poor nuke is easy to spot. All you have to do is watch them for about 15 minutes. Thats all it would have taken on this submarine to figure out this RL Div was hosed. One EWS or Supervisor to take 15 minutes of his time to watch the daily sample...........One EDO to cruise by the sample sink and watch whats going on.

[JustinHEMI05]

I disagree Justin. Although I will agree with the standards dropping.....and the downturn in quality from the training pipeline. There are still alot of really smart and motivated people in the program. They keep on reenlisting and doing the patrols for all the right reasons. I good friend of mine just reenlisted the other day. He could have found a better paying job outside the Navy, but he decided to stay for the right reasons. Its unfortunate that the wrong collection of leadership was in place on this submarine. It is still amazing that this could happen and I provide no excuse for the actions of this Engineering Dept. However, to say that the program will just completely fail in the future is narrow minded. I trained some incredibly talented individuals in Charleston, and some who could barely tie their own shoes. I'm not proud of the latter, but I did the best I could with what was given to me. Unfortunately the training pipeline is designed to keep everyone now, we did the best we could in Charleston. I have a high degree of trust in the future Navy leadership to separate the good ones from the bad ones. Its not hard, a piss poor nuke is easy to spot. All you have to do is watch them for about 15 minutes. Thats all it would have taken on this submarine to figure out this RL Div was hosed. One EWS or Supervisor to take 15 minutes of his time to watch the daily sample...........One EDO to cruise by the sample sink and watch whats going on.

Ya I don't disagree that there are still and probably always will be good people that do the right thing in the program. I however don't have the trust or faith that you do in the future of the program. I guess only time will tell. I truely hope you are right for everone's sake.

Sounds like this whole ship was broke. Besides what just happened, I am sure they are going to get plenty of help on both ends... nukes and cones... and I am really curious to see what else comes out fore and aft.

Justin

[Rad Sponge]

Jason, I don't know what point you're trying to make.  Are you saying the overabundance of "help" (i.e. policy notes, the NPIM rolodex of random information, squadron letters) is to blame for this situation?

Absolutely not, I don't condone what the Hampton folks did. Like someone mentioned earlier, its all conjecture without knowing the facts.

I am just discussing what I have seen and how RL div is very interpretative in nature and compliance with the books is not even close to being in compliance with expectations, from my experience and I have been under quite a few seasoned LELTs and even had the chance myself.

The overabundance of help is a problem in that it blurrs standards.

ORSE is even subjective. An AA/E RL-Div can be that one orse, operate the same way and be Average the next.

I have seen blatant integrity violations ruin careers and I have seen ELTs sticking to the letter of law go nowhere in their careers because they butted heads with ORSE/SQN/CO, whomever. Just make it look good has been said to me a zillion times.

There should be one standard and every class of ship should have the exact same maps, exact same nomenclature, exact same everything if they have the same plant.

[ddklbl]

The overabundance of help is a problem in that it blurrs standards.

I don't think there was any doubt as to the standards that were expected here.  You sample, it's the law.

With respect to the integrity of the program, the path this thread seems to be going, I don't want to be as downtrodden as Justin nor can I be as Pollyanna as Kev3399.  The program has some serious issues facing it.  I see a shortage of talent.  There will be great people left to fight the fight, but great people should be the standard, not the exception.  I see a huge problem in level of knowledge.  The books are slimming down, that is a fact.  You cannot expect an operator to know everything about anything if you don't give him the tools do so.  NR cannot rely on the Naval Recruiting Command to be it's talent agency.  The old model used to be to recruit 10000 sailors for 2000 billets.  Now, we recruit 2500 to fill the same 2000 billets.  Those fuggers don't care who they recruit.  They pick the easiest 2500 to sign the line instead of the best 2500 (I know, I was #2499 in the easy column).  The recruiters don't have a vested interest in the quality of the end-product. 

It's easy to sit here and armchair quarterback the sh!t out this story.  About the only thing I can say with certainty is that all of our credibility, commercial and military, is now called into question. 

[Kev3399]

I don't think there was any doubt as to the standards that were expected here.  You sample, it's the law.

With respect to the integrity of the program, the path this thread seems to be going, I don't want to be as downtrodden as Justin nor can I be as Pollyanna as Kev3399.  The program has some serious issues facing it.  I see a shortage of talent.  There will be great people left to fight the fight, but great people should be the standard, not the exception.  I see a huge problem in level of knowledge.  The books are slimming down, that is a fact.  You cannot expect an operator to know everything about anything if you don't give him the tools do so.  NR cannot rely on the Naval Recruiting Command to be it's talent agency.  The old model used to be to recruit 10000 sailors for 2000 billets.  Now, we recruit 2500 to fill the same 2000 billets.  Those fuggers don't care who they recruit.  They pick the easiest 2500 to sign the line instead of the best 2500 (I know, I was #2499 in the easy column).  The recruiters don't have a vested interest in the quality of the end-product. 

It's easy to sit here and armchair quarterback the sh!t out this story.  About the only thing I can say with certainty is that all of our credibility, commercial and military, is now called into question. 

I can agree with this. The program needs to get more involved in some aspect of the recruiting process. I threw around several ideas while an instructor. There just wasn't ever any concern for that portion of the process.

[Rad Sponge]

I don't think there was any doubt as to the standards that were expected here.  You sample, it's the law.

With respect to the integrity of the program, the path this thread seems to be going, I don't want to be as downtrodden as Justin nor can I be as Pollyanna as Kev3399.  The program has some serious issues facing it.  I see a shortage of talent.  There will be great people left to fight the fight, but great people should be the standard, not the exception.  I see a huge problem in level of knowledge.  The books are slimming down, that is a fact.  You cannot expect an operator to know everything about anything if you don't give him the tools do so.  NR cannot rely on the Naval Recruiting Command to be it's talent agency.  The old model used to be to recruit 10000 sailors for 2000 billets.  Now, we recruit 2500 to fill the same 2000 billets.  Those fuggers don't care who they recruit.  They pick the easiest 2500 to sign the line instead of the best 2500 (I know, I was #2499 in the easy column).  The recruiters don't have a vested interest in the quality of the end-product. 

It's easy to sit here and armchair quarterback the sh!t out this story.  About the only thing I can say with certainty is that all of our credibility, commercial and military, is now called into question. 

You are referencing the blowing off of the primary, we are in complete agreement on that. No excuse. Sample.

I am opening up the discussion to a general observation about RL div issues.

The Hampton was not a shot in the dark.

[rbmcmjr]

This was way more than an RL Div/ELT problem.  How do you go 30 days without taking a primary sample and NO ONE notices?  Not the EOOW?  Not the EWS?  Not the EO waiting for the valves to be called in?  The mechanic expecting to read for the valve operation?  Sorry...this was an entire department that lost its integrity. 

As a former Chemistry Assistant on Enterprise, this story shocked me for exactly those reasons.  It appears that the press has the story wrong (big shock!).

From what I understand, this is not a case of blowing off the daily.  The samples were drawn, but a specific analysis was radioed because it was a PITA to perform and never varied.  It apparently came to light as they were reviewing logs in prep for the ORSE.

Rick

[cincinnatinuke]

Another site referred to the analysis as rhyming with pink.  For some of you old timers you may not know what it is, but for those of you that did this analysis know it was a PITA and it never varied and if I remember correctly had a lot of error built in.  It is nothing like how it is done commercially at least at Calvert with Ion Chromatography.

I bring this up for a couple of reasons.  First, it would be inappropriate to comment on Hampton's RL division blowing off 30 days worth of primary samples, or the integrity of ELT's, or the state of nuclear recruiting.  Though from some of the early articles and anonymous source comments in those articles it isnt hard to see why that conclusion (blowing off entire primaries) was jumped to.

Some personal OE, when I was a newly reported ELT to the boat I had to qualify rather quickly.  The above analysis was blazed off since it was assumed I had seen it at S8G.  I had "seen" it at S8G, but there it was assumed I would learn it and perform it in the fleet if my boat used it and if not no harm, no foul.  So during my walk through with the Engineer he decided to get heavy on this particular analysis.  The deeper he probed the slippier the slope I was standing on until he just flat out asked if I had ever performed this analysis.  So I can lie and save face with my division or I can tell the truth and have to face my division.

I told the truth and I became the black sheep of the division for awhile.  The moral of this story is that I bet alot of things get blazed whether it was in the 1960's on the Nautilus or today on the Hampton.  I doubt my fellow elts did this to have me avoid ever doing this analysis or to have me do this without the know how.  They needed a qualified ELT and we were in the yards and primaries were far and few between and would be a while before another Pink analysis would be done.

For all we really know is that someone forgot(or chose not to??) to do check chems.  Or paper work wasnt filled out or was misplaced, and rewritten prior to ORSE.  Lets not crucify these guys just yet.  I am sure the navy will effectively ruin their Naval careers.....the CO's, RL, the Eng, all remotely involved.  And yes I am holding out with rose colored glasses that 6 ELTs and their CRA didnt get to this point in their naval careers with this type of integrity and work ethic.  If that is the case then open up the flood gates on the State of naval nuclear Power .

[Marvin]

1983 (or was it 84) - I had never been assigned to survey the ships galley.  I was told that no one ever really went up there anyway, but I was bored and thought it would be cool to see where the captain hung out.  So I grabbed a frisker and some smears, found a blank survey form and a map to his place and headed out.

The captain's quarters on the big ships is very cool.  He had a little lounge area, a nice little bedroom, and his own galley and cook.  Anyone that know's navy ELT stuff knows that we have to survey all of the galleys because that's where food is prepared (duh) and there's this nuclear reactor on board and all.

Anyway, I had done the independent self-directed tour, met the cook, took some smears and was walking the dog with the pancake probe when someone walked up to me.  First I saw his shiny shoes and khaki pants, then when I looked up, I recognized the captain of the ship (I had seen his picture).  He was very curious to know what I was doing.  I told him "I am performing the routine survey of your galley area, sir."  He asked "how often is this survey performed?"  I said "weekly sir" (actually, I forgot the frequency but it sounds good).  Then he asked "how come I have never seen anyone performing this survey?"  I responded "we always try to schedule it while no one is here sir."  He said "carry-on."  So I did.

Moral of the story:
Humans are no different now than they were then.  When you take a complex convoluted system, insert imperfect humans, then expect perfect results you can be sure of one thing.  The humans will fail, individually and collectively.  That we fail is a given, not a possibility.  Our response to failure is actually more important than failure itself.  When we respond by pointing fingers and placing blame, then failure begets (a biblical term) failure.  When we pick up our buddies and brush the dirt off of their back and tell them to get back in the game, then the blame cycle ends.  And anyone that has been out there knows, there's a lot of dirt to deal with.

Of course, gross willful negligence is another story.  Research culpability tree.

[cincinnatinuke]

Karma to ya.  You said it much more eloquently than I.

[Cycoticpenguin]

There are a HUGE amount of problems coming from ELT's in the fleet. Is this a recurring trend or a newer happenstance?

Whole divisions are getting busted, how is the navy recouperating from it?

[LaFeet]

Okay, as a former LELT, RCSS, etc.,.....Man! Things have changed,...

To wit,...We became aware of an MM-ELT gundecking his SG level logs underway in AMR2LL (remember the stupid, almost never accurate Yarways they use to stick in front of the throttleman),...
proved it, charged him, masted him, denuked, defrocked, desubed, degone, dedone,...
we went port and stbd in AMR2LL for the rest of the spec op, it was a long spec op, and we knew we'd be P & S before we busted the big dummy, that was even mentioned to us by the bull nuke when the gundecking was still just a suspicion and not a fact and maybe we should just "mentor" the situation,...
we just told the bull nuke "if he's gundecking the simple stuff, where else is he screwing us?, nah, he's gotta face the music and we need to be able to trust the last watchstander",... mistakes are mitigable, malicious malfeasance knows no end,...
in years since I've wondered if the bull nuke was just gauging the integrity of the RL division rank and file,...

like I said,...Things have changed,...I don't remember entire nuke divisions going to mast back then, maybe I was just too busy to notice,...

I've tried to stay away from this thread( but the topic and the beer have the better of me)


I Gotta agree with Marssim.... if one is WILLING to blow off his duties...... ignore doing the RIGHT thing  what else is he going to do?  What other harm could befall us???   Hang on here... we are not talking about a floater... we are talking about a dang sh%7 tube that hold some 100+ others BELOW the water's surface !!!!

 As a former RC DIv LPO.... and honorary SMAG/EM/Mao Mao  I can not condone anyone falsifying (spelling??) logs for any reason.  Hell, if I can get a couple of FRSUs correct in an hour, than any SMAG can at least do the DAILY soutine sample.  Sorry, but it's the truth.... I don't feel anyone has a reason to place the plant in jeopardy nnnnnnnnnoooooo how much the analysis may or may not have changed over the past few years.

Okay  Ima gonna bed now.. mayhap another Hobgoblim (thanks Jimmy)

[Kev3399]

I've tried to stay away from this thread( but the topic and the beer have the better of me)

.....I kept glancing at your avatar while reading your post.

Not to start a sub vs surface thing.......Things hit the poop fan just as fast on a carrier if RC Div is hosed. Although, I've heard enough stories from submariners to have a special respect for you all.

[cincinnatinuke]

LaFeet,

If karma were an absolute value you would be king.  I have never seen someone's karma go as far positve, as it is now, from as far negative as I have seen it.  I am gonna give you karma, but I have to debate whether it will be +/-, since with you it never really matters.  I wonder if I can give you both??? 

[cincinnatinuke]

LaFeet,

If karma were an absolute value you would be king.  I have never seen someone's karma go as far positve, as it is now, from as far negative as I have seen it.  I am gonna give you karma, but I have to debate whether it will be +/-, since with you it never really matters.  I wonder if I can give you both??? 

I am allowed to give you both, just not consecutively.  I did start with negative since you didnt raise your beer glass or offer to buy a virtual round.

[WA SubDoc]

On the USS Henry M Jackson (SSBN 730)(B) in the mid-90's I had a MM2 ELT fail to Zero CaF tld's prior to issue.

He claimed that he did it on a reader at the Trident Training Facility at Bangor. Problem for him, that part of TTF was a "secure" area and hadn't been opened that day.

We issued tld's to all the F-ing nukes just before we took the boat (turn over with the other crew).

He got caught when the ELT's did an initial entry into the RC. The SIPD's read around 10 and the CaF read 25ish. It was within the 30/30 rule and it was acceptable.  The on duty ELT's did some investigating and read the TLD's of other people on duty that weekend. The TLD's read an average of 15mRem. That is for tld's that were supposed to be zero'd just 48 hours before and only used on aboard a Trident with a cold plant and no RC entries.

An investigation followed and he was taken to MAST where he was busted and fined (both suspended), de-nuked and had his submarine designator removed. He was sent to the Nimitz as a conventional MM. About a year later the CO of the Nimitz sent my CO a letter asking if he would consider "evacuating" the MAST. My XO showed me the letter, and he let me rant, rave, cuss and stomp my feet for a bit. Then the skipper walked in and in an Oscar award winning form said, "I see you've seen the letter... Here's my response......" The letter basically said: NOT ONLY NO, BUT H3LL NO!!!. ..... God, I loved that skipper.

[Rad Sponge]

FYI

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,336208,00.html

Question referring to linked story...what's an Officer Advancement Exam?

[ddklbl]

Question referring to linked story...what's an Officer Advancement Exam?

A misprint, probably.  The article below has nearly the same wording, omitting the officer. 

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20080308-9999-1m8hampton.html

I will say that is probably one of the most strongly worded, disparaging characterizations of, not only an officer, but a ships captain I've ever heard.  You'd think they were describing Capt. Queeg himself, minus the strawberries.

[number41]

I've been staying clear of this thread for awhile, but I'll be on terminal leave tomorrow, so what the F.  Anyway, after having been an EOOW and RCT/RCSS, I feel that I'm basically qualified to comment on ELT performance.  The REAL reason smag's get into trouble with chemistry and radcon is laziness, but more often than not their laziness appears to develop from the "interpretations" of their manuals.  In my time in the program I frequently witnessed the people in charge of a program "interpreting" the WCM/RCM to mean different things.  This makes it nearly impossible for any ELT to consistently do his job to the standard.  Since the manuals were specifically written to leave a little lee-way in the administration and maintenance of radcon and chemistry, two things have happened: 1.) The crappy ELT's have used that margin to further their inherent laziness, and 2.) the people in charge have used that margin to interpret the books the way they see fit.  Both of these actions have only served to confound the efforts of the common EOOW & ELT to interpret and use the manuals in the way they are intended.  The end result has been that many ELT's have begun to control chemistry as they see fit and make the logs look correct and the EOOW's have stopped questioning what is really going on with chemistry.  Both groups know that upper management will be changing the way the boat does business with regard to WCM/RCM Article xxx.x.x within the next month anyway....................... ......SOME of this is an exaggeration, but some of it is not.  You can judge for yourself how much is really true.  Just my $.02.

[taterhead]

FYI

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,336208,00.html

Question referring to linked story...what's an Officer Advancement Exam?

that was supposed to say CTE's (Continuous Training Exams).

Fox News...what do you expect? 

[DDMurray]

I've been staying clear of this thread for awhile, but I'll be on terminal leave tomorrow, so what the F.  Anyway, after having been an EOOW and RCT/RCSS, I feel that I'm basically qualified to comment on ELT performance.  The REAL reason smag's get into trouble with chemistry and radcon is laziness, but more often than not their laziness appears to develop from the "interpretations" of their manuals.  In my time in the program I frequently witnessed the people in charge of a program "interpreting" the WCM/RCM to mean different things.  This makes it nearly impossible for any ELT to consistently do his job to the standard.  Since the manuals were specifically written to leave a little lee-way in the administration and maintenance of radcon and chemistry, two things have happened: 1.) The crappy ELT's have used that margin to further their inherent laziness, and 2.) the people in charge have used that margin to interpret the books the way they see fit.  Both of these actions have only served to confound the efforts of the common EOOW & ELT to interpret and use the manuals in the way they are intended.  The end result has been that many ELT's have begun to control chemistry as they see fit and make the logs look correct and the EOOW's have stopped questioning what is really going on with chemistry.  Both groups know that upper management will be changing the way the boat does business with regard to WCM/RCM Article xxx.x.x within the next month anyway....................... ......SOME of this is an exaggeration, but some of it is not.  You can judge for yourself how much is really true.  Just my $.02.

I do not disagree with what you are saying, but I don't think it was a contributor in this case.  The things that got these guys in trouble were pretty much no brainers as far as knowing what they did was wrong.  The fact that it involved so many people at one command tells you it was a command climate issue.  There have been lots and lots of discussions on where to go from here WRT integrity in general.  I was surprised to find out that these guys were Battle E material 18 months prior to all this happening.  We're finding out that many of today's Sailors look at integrity differently than we were taught 20 years ago.  You'll start seeing discussions of professional vice personal integrity because we're learning that many guys look at integrity as sticking with your friends even though they do dumb things.  Though this seems honorable on the surface, it contributed to the situation we saw on Hampton.  I'm no goody two shoes, but I'd like to think I would have recognized the bad situation these guys put themselves into.  That's all I'm going to say about that.

[DDMurray]

Some light reading for us. 
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/images/080308hampton.pdf

[Rad Sponge]

Wow, this was systemic lack of integrity up and down the chain of command. I highly suspect that RL div and O-training were not the only areas of deficiency.

I bet the rest of the boat went "Whewwwwwww" and then got drunk.

[StevenPeck]

When your recruitment pool is 5:4 instead of 5:1 (people to spots) there has to be some considerable drop in ability.  I have yet to hear about technical high schools in the USA graduating people more capable than in the 1970's.  In fact, the manuals and skill sets have become less comprehensive (over time) instead of more.

It would be very hard to spot and drop the integrity deficient nube when you have half a class of dismal failures waiting for you to pass them.

[number41]

Derek, Jason, I whole-heartedly concur that the problem was not simply due to a couple of sleazy ELT's.  However I still believe the reason the whole COC was jaded/lazy/stupid, whatever their problem was, could be a result of the way it's been done over the last 10 years.  Some engineer or CO or XO took that "I used to work at NAVSEA08 and this is what the manual means" attitude.  They continually enforce their INTERPRETATION of the manual as the intent when that's just not necessarily the case.  This gives the technical expert (ELT's in this case) no freedom to do his job within the guidlines of the rules.  He is forced into someone else's very specific interpretation of the rule and in my experience, this leads to a whole group of people who don't care about the requirements anymore because they know that someone is going to micromanage the whole program for them.  In fact, a big turn-around in this type of managment is happening right now.   NAVSEA has threatened action against commands that submit 85 page training summaries and 35 page short range training plans.  Commands have wasted so much time administering programs due to someone's interpretation of what TYCOM wants that they aren't effectively completing their mission.  It's in the same vein as the fleetwide ELT problems and finally the admiral is tired of it.  I hope they do actually put some power back in the hands of the technician on the deckplate.  Things will improve if they do this and adequately supervise the change.

[Ranger88]

The more things change the more they stay the same.
1985-1987 I was a staff instructor NPTU Ballston spa.  The CO said that if the students were smart enough to get through Nuke school then they were smart enough to get through NPTU and if they didn't it was due to a failure on our part, the instructors.  So our hands were tied.
The same was said about Nuke school, if they were smart enough to pass the NFQT then they were smart enough to pass Nuke Sch.

Lazy peapole with low integrity have been radioing logs since the beginning of time, to think otherwise is being naive.  I saw it less on SUBs than surface ships because you trusted your shipmates on watch to keep you safe and alive while you slept.  And on more than one occasion those we didn't trust got some very personal, motivational, counseling sessions.  On surface ships the attitude was more, hay if something happens, DIW, we will just go topside and have a coke and a smile, but we will live.

I think as the standards of our society go down so does the supply pool for the nuclear navy.  And yes they spend way too much time worrying about BS which is usually driven by the opinions of the HMFIC at the time which changes rapidly, i.e. the moving target/standard.

[JustinHEMI05]

Some light reading for us. 
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/images/080308hampton.pdf

I sit here speechless and flabbergasted.

Justin

[Gamecock]

I can't believe all the stuff in that report!!! WoW!!!!!

[Loffy Muffin]

Yeah, but I bet you the boat was clean.

[Ranger88]

Just read the report Justin posted. "SMOKIN" or as Paris would say; "That's Hot!"  Looks like about 10 years and 10 boats worth of integrity violations stuffed into one CO's tour.  Quiet a feat even for a real XXXX CO.

Bottom line is the plant is over designed with some operator error factored in, such as chem OOS for a given period of time.  The Navy has always relied much more on design than on operators fro RX safety.  I know I would much rather rely on the design engineer dudes to save me than my shipmates.

I think the COM companies adopted this same design philosophy after the TMI "lets boil it dry thing".  I guess anybody can make an honest mistake right.

So what the lesser of 2 evils:
- A smart Vic Mackey operator who has a clue, or
- A middle of the road guy, high integrity, fully/legally qualified, that boils the core dry.

My Nuke SCH CMC briefed us when we arrived, he said that he would rather have a 2.5 student that put in mando 35 come to his SUB than a smart guy making a 3.5 with little effort an no mando time.  I must say I will take the smart guy anytime and work on the Vic Mackey part.  

[JustinHEMI05]

I didn't post it.

Justin

[taterhead]

I sit here speechless and flabbergasted.

Justin

I popped some popcorn and enjoyed every last word and black mark.

[JustinHEMI05]

I popped some popcorn and enjoyed every last word and black mark.

Oh I enjoyed it. But after what I know happened on the hartford, I didn't think it could get much worse. I guess thats naivety on my part. That whole 30 page report just goes to prove a lot of things.

Justin

[tonynuke]

I dont doubt that this could happen, i just feel fortunate that it didnt happen to us,  call  it a lack of training, whatever your want, i just know that a diluted talent pool leads to diluted talent.  I know i couldnt wait to leave, and good replacements....well....nough said.

[Already Gone]

Maybe I missed it, but where are all the retractions from everyone who jumped on the assumption that the whole incident was lazy ELT's blowing off entire daily primary samples for months?

What we find when we hear the whole story is a picture of widespread integrity violations, which also included several ELT's blowing off or recording false values for ONE analysis that they seem to have been unable to do properly.  It seems pretty obvious here that nobody on that boat was willing to admit that they had a problem for fear of being berated by a CO with an ego problem.

I'm spewing milk out of my nose at all the former O-gangers here who claim to have consistently busted the ELT's on their BS.  Brother, you only caught the easy ones.  Every ELT has a bad day once in awhile, but the ratio of times that you threw the flag to the number of times that they put one right past you would require scientific notation to fit on this screen.  There was a reason we called you Zeroes.

I used to "love" those times when some JO decided to change the S/G additions by 10 grams, when we consistently added 50 grams "for the pot" anyway.  Those nomographs said one thing, but we knew how much to really add to get the numbers we wanted.  No Lt. (j.g.) with a ruler and a 5th generation Xerox copy of the nomograph was ever going to change that.  My favorite instance was when a smirking EOOW told Barry Jackson that he had changed his calculation.  Barry's answer told the whole story:  "It doesn't matter, I'm going to add what I want anyway."

Only once did I ever alter my addition because an officer told me to.  I did it to spite him.  The dumbass wouldn't listen, so I did what he told me to do.  The hideout return was ridiculous on a boat that old, and the resulting blowdowns called much attention to the ill-advised addition of chemicals just before shutting down.  He never changed my calculations again.

Integrity didn't even come into play.  We did what we knew to keep the plant in shape and the numbers in spec - sometimes despite the guidance we got from the khaki-klad-klub.

I don't know what the hell a "pink" analysis is, but it is obviously not a daily requirement.  There were a few like that when I was an ELT.  Chlorides and Oxygen were rarely analyzed, and it almost always took a couple of tries to get them right.  In my day, they both required a messy procedure and a color change that was barely perceptible as well as different from that of an identical analisys of S/G water.  Anyway, it was common to screw these up and have to do them over a couple of times.  On a boat where it doesn't seem to matter, the temptation to just blow it off is probably just too hard to pass up.

[Marlin]

Nuclear phenomenon, and PFM were generally understood by most to the O-gangers on my boats. Once in a while a Junior officer would be a little nervous or overly factitious, this was very annoying and we did not let them off the hook easily. The more senior the EOOW on watch the better, as there was a lot more practical understanding and lot less "what if?". This little dust up looks like a break down in a normally good system. The Navy does still have the best nuclear safety record in the world.

[rumrunner]

Integrity didn't even come into play.  We did what we knew to keep the plant in shape and the numbers in spec - sometimes despite the guidance we got from the khaki-klad-klub.

Be wary Beercourt.  I admitted to doing the same thing a few days ago and some members here implied that my parents were never married.   

An ELT who never did the same thing must have had a lot of red circles on their logs.  I worked in both all-volatile and tri/di plants, and regardless, you always had to "finesse" the chem add to get the desired results - which technically meant the log entries were not true.  But at least my plant chemistry was in spec. 

The Hampton affair sounds more like a Captain Queeg deal than it does a bunch of lazy ELTs blowing off the daily primary.

I wonder if the Captain in question liked strawberries?
 

[Gamecock]

I'm spewing milk out of my nose at all the former O-gangers here who claim to have consistently busted the ELT's on their BS.  Brother, you only caught the easy ones.  Every ELT has a bad day once in awhile, but the ratio of times that you threw the flag to the number of times that they put one right past you would require scientific notation to fit on this screen.  There was a reason we called you Zeroes.

I used to "love" those times when some JO decided to change the S/G additions by 10 grams, when we consistently added 50 grams "for the pot" anyway.  Those nomographs said one thing, but we knew how much to really add to get the numbers we wanted.  No Lt. (j.g.) with a ruler and a 5th generation Xerox copy of the nomograph was ever going to change that.  My favorite instance was when a smirking EOOW told Barry Jackson that he had changed his calculation.  Barry's answer told the whole story:  "It doesn't matter, I'm going to add what I want anyway."

My problem with stories like this is twofold.

First, integrity is one of the principles of the program.  You guys hide behind "I'm smarter then the watch officer and I therefore know better" persona if you want to make yourself feel better....but I openly question your integrity.  You guys chose the easy way out vice doing your job properly.  All nukes, officer and enlisted, are called upon to ask questions when they arise.  Instead of thinking the watch officer is an idiot or a jackass, take the time to show him why he's wrong and your right.  If he still disagrees, use your chain of command.....LPO, LCPO, DIVO.   There again, this is watchteam back-up, another principle of the program.  Blatantly disregarding an order from a senior is wrong, wrong, wrong!!!!

Second, there are lots of nuke wanna-be's and junior nukes who read these posts.  You openly advocate "getting one by" the watch officer.   These young guys are going to take that advice to heart and think that is the way things get done in the fleet.   Your are advocating actions that are contrary to the collective good.  Shame on you!!!

Oh, if Barry Jackson or any other watch stander, officer or enlisted had told me he was going to do whatever he wanted vice what I said as the EOOW, we would have issues.  I would have called RL Div LPO, LCPO, and CRA to the box and we all would have had a discussion in regards to formality, compliance with procedures, and disrespect prior to me authorizing the add.

Before you slam on me for not understanding what I speak of, I was enlisted for eight+ years prior to getting commissioned, so I have walked a mile in your shoes.

[ddklbl]

I think we've come to the determination that integrity has been a problem in the the navy for quite some time. 

Some boats are better.  Some not so much.

No new lessons learned.

[HydroDave63]

So in this alternate universe of science-fiction, consider: The dog-eared Xeroxed nomogram comes from NAVSEA08, and isn't updated constantly, yet the ELT knows from experience and RL div turnovers that hideout returns and other recent experience that a certain amount of +/- bandwidth is merited. Is the LtJG really going to listen to the explanation and debate how many angels dance on the head of a pin, or simply say the ELT is being insubordinate and go do it my way or else?!? Who is going to fetch the RL divO at 0315? Should the ELT bring all data from the last 20 samples? Or,perhaps if said LtJG demands such precision, why didn't LtJG review all of the ELT data , Rx Divs last couple long-form pre-crits and maybe brush height on the TGs prior to taking the watch??? There were two bowls of strawberries left....


BTW, I do concur, Barry Jackson should not have said it aloud, and with the caveat that his math and prior chem results on the boat better have supported his add (which I suspect they did)

[DDMurray]

I think we're seeing the different ways people look at integrity.  WRT the discussion on secondary chemistry, there is a source document that provides an avenue to discuss or recommend changes to the WCM/RPM.  We saw this on S6W.  After providing logs for review, the technical agency revised the source document so the amount of chemicals to add were changed.  After several months of data, the numbers were tweaked again.  Also, we now use a program to calculate most of our adds so the nomographs are not necessarily needed.  You can't follow it blindly, but when used properly it makes the ELTs' (and EOOW/EWS) job easier.  I'm sure plenty of ex-ELTs (or current ELTs) will disagree.  In the case of the Hampton, they logged analysis results for a sample they didn't analyze for (actual one analysis that's part of a sample) and they forged the CO's signature on more than one occasion.  In both of these cases, there were procedures in place to cover these situations; however, the command climate made doing the right thing too hard for these guys (or they perceived it to be too hard).  The integrity problems with the CTP were found while pulling the string on the other events.
   Integrity is much more complicated than doing the right thing even while nobody is watching (more or less the litmus test used when I first qualified at NPTU in 1985).  The program is trying to teach integrity in a non-zero defect mentality.  By the time a nuke goes in-hull at NPTU his training on integrity has transitioned to the fleet expectation and he/she's expected to fully understand the standard.  Again, plenty of you may disagree, but this is what I was recently briefed on.

[ddklbl]

This is such horse s#@$.

You cannot tell me that any of you old dogs think that what you did, in completely undermining the authority of the watchofficer, was the right thing to do.  Yes you may have been right, but you are obligated to get the EOOW on board with why he is wrong and why your way is better.  If he won't listen to you, then you go to his boss, and have it explained to the EOOW from the top down, vice bottom up. 

The watch team cannot keep secrets from each other.  Disrespect, like the chain of command, goes up and down.  An underlying culture like that (of complete disrespect for authority, up and down) culminates in the same results as the hampton.   

The nuclear navy is unique in that the juniorest of men can stop an evolution if it is wrong.  No where does that responsibility give him the right to give the finger to his EOOW and completely ignore an order and do it his way regardless.  If the order is wrong then you stop and get it straightend out; including "adds for Grandma" to the pot.  Get a good order and carry on. 

It just really bothers me that Moderators and other established members of this forum would condone and advocate this behavior, to do what you think is better, counter to established regulation.  You follow the rules.  If you don't like them, fight to change them.  But you follow them until then.  I just can't believe I'm hearing this s#$%, coming from an older generation, who tells us the navy isn't what it used to be; how the program has slid.  From what I read here you are just as much to blame as anyone.  All of us have blood on our hands.

And for what it's worth, past chemistry, precrits and visual inspections of all generating equipment are supposed to be part of the EOOW's prewatch tour.  Whether or not he looks at those items is on him.


edited for language by pwhoppe

[rumrunner]

Well, dd...your excrement disbelief aside, the fact is that "doing the right thing" your way wouldn't get it at 0315 when the primary was isolated in the bomb.  I can't see the chain of command solemnly entering maneuvering to debate a generator add - at least not in my "old" Navy.  We "did the right thing" by keeping things in spec by doing what we needed to do.  By the way...that is the way I was taught at prototype - both by Navy and GE personnel.  If that offends you then all I can say is tango sierra.  My generators on the Nimitz were inspected in 1984 and all they found were a few marble-sized balls of black stuff.  Otherwise they looked almost new.  I am proud of that.

>>All of us have blood on our hands.<<

Oh please.  Herman Goering had blood on his hands.  To use that metaphor with regard to NAVSEA08 is really going over the top.

[rumrunner]

there are lots of nuke wanna-be's and junior nukes who read these posts.  You openly advocate "getting one by" the watch officer.   These young guys are going to take that advice to heart and think that is the way things get done in the fleet.   Your are advocating actions that are contrary to the collective good.  Shame on you!!! 

Don't overestimate the readership of this board.  I seriously doubt the whole nuclear fleet will collapse into ruin because of what we post here.

What I am posting is the reality of nuclear fleet life almost 30 years ago. 

[JsonD13]

I can say this about the situation, as a person that has a life, I want to go home at the end of my day.  When the collective Navy COC brings in TSO's, Nuc Notes, and etc., on top of the NAVSEA instructions and tech manuals, in most cases it takes much longer to get things done (if you have seen it take over a day to get S/G chemistry back in spec with just one b/d and add, you know what im talking about).  It is one thing to bicker about integrity and whether anyone has it or not (which I believe we all do to a degree), but when you are pushed and pushed day in and day out to get stuff done on time so you and/or your shipmates and COC can go home, you feel that stress on you.  Most of the time, you are the only one alone in the "integrity fight", trying to do what's right. I fought that fight for a long time, and I've had it.  It is my personal belief that the program has gotten too political, with our zero-defect mentality (trust me its there), and the addition of rules upon rules (especially when there is a critique or incident) for it to work with 100% integrity.  The answer lies not in adding more requirements, but relaxing them a bit, and training operators to have the knowledge to do what is needed. 
Now as far as a JO telling you (with the enlisted person having years more experience in most cases) that you are wrong, sometimes it takes an attitude like that previously mentioned to do things right.  How many of you would have called in your COC from at home to yell at a JO for not approving a S/G add correctly?  How many of your Chiefs, DIVO's, etc. would have told you to man up on it?  If the watch officer had a question about this, they "should" have the knowledge to do the calculation themselves and they should be involved enough with the situation (the guy was qualified right?  he should have seen an add before) to know if the nomographs are wrong.  What was mentioned was obviously an example of someone that needed to feel more control over their life. 

[G-reg]

I've been holding off on posting here, but since I start my own terminal leave in a few days (McLovin' beat me by a week), here goes nothin'...

I understand and acknowledge what Gamecock & dd are saying.  Professionalism, formality, and integrity are all cornerstones of the Navy Nuclear program.  Everyone should strive to live up to these principles.

But the bad news is that we live in an imperfect world.  There are people running around in various chains of command with anchors, bars, and oak leaves on their collars who simply don't deserve to wear them.  And sometimes, these particular people even make it to the top of the food chain (and from time to time, these people even get fired).  Granted, these particular people do make up the minority of leadership.  But sometimes (as the Hampton illustrates in a very over-the-top manner), the chain of command itself makes problems worse.  The chain of command usually DOES work most of the time in most of the places, but that certainly doesn't mean it works every time, everywhere.  I'm pretty sure all of us know of commands where the chain was dysfunctional in one way or another.

And also, there are times in this imperfect world when you get caught between a rock and a hard place - when there just simply isn't any "right" answer.  For example, let's say that there are two instructions for a certain ELT record, and these two instructions tell you to perform a certain calculation in exactly opposite ways.  Whichever method you chose to go along with, you are VIOLATING the requirements of the other instruction.  And then let's say you actually do go up the chain all the way to the ivory tower itself, and the people there say that it isn't worth the money it would cost to revise one instruction or the other, so the two conflicting requirements both end up standing as written.  How can there be a right answer when either way you go, a higher-authority requirement tells you that you are doing it the wrong way?  (By the way, this particular example isn't just a hypothetical thought-problem.)  In most cases, a "correct" answer can be found (or at least figured out), but there are still some true dilemmas which exist and simply have no "correct" answers.

It would be truly great if the chain of command always solved problems, but the people in the chain of command are only human, and are therefore prone to be imperfect.  But even with our imperfections, when we gather together in numbers, we usually come up with the right answer.  Usually.

Professionalism, formality, and integrity should be practiced to the utmost every day.  And when faced with a situation where there is no right answer, all you can do is the best that you can do.  In a system which has imperfections built right into it, and which cannot possibly foresee every situation that does arise in real life, sometimes the rules fail us.  If you find yourself in one of those unfortunate situations, just do the very best that you can based on your own professionalism, formality, and integrity; I cannot ask more from you than that.

My own humble thoughts.

And if anyone is looking for a 100% Go-Navy website, I recommend www.navy.com.

Peace, everyone.

[Preciousblue1965]

Well I can tell you right now that the Navy only practices what it preaches when it is beneficial to do so.  Case in point.  The pipeline.  3 Years at Protohell and I saw 2 people get dropped for accademics.  I personally got reamed up one hole and out the other for giving a kid a 2.3 on his final board as a mechanic.  The knucklehead didn't know how a bearing worked or the oil flow through them.  I got reamed for giving "too hard" of checkouts just because I would throw people out if they hadn't even been down to look at the system.  The Navy has found that it is easier to replace their nukes than retain them.  They keep enough to man the higher ranks but few of those are the best we can find. 

Face it, we all either had highly "directed" study sheets for CTE's or used watch team backup to get through an MTT exam at some point.  Does it mean we didn't know what we were doing. NO.  It meant that we didn't memorize the most obscure nuiance in a 400 page book or memorize a 6 page procedure that we wouldn't attempt to do without the book anyway.  The tests nukes are giving are overly rediculous to begin with.  Instead of someone saying, hey what the ham sandwich and making them closer to real life LOK, we just make our way through and sacrifice the NUB to the ORSE gods to appease for our sins.

Sorry O-Gang but your enlisted guys are the experts.  Prior enlisted Officers are better than most but I swear something happens when you put on Khaki in that all of a sudden you expect everything to work out the way you were taught.  Well I shall step down from my soap box now.  Thank you.

[rumrunner]

I remember when we would go on pre-ORSE watch teams.  Five and Dimes for several weeks for three lucky groups of watchstanders - and I got the call more than once in my Navy life.  The reasoning was simple.  They wanted us to all be in the same wavelength and to react in the same way.  In other words, a show. 

I got to do the primary for ORSE twice in my Navy life.  In both cases it was with a four-striper (Captain).  And in both cases I did what I thought was a 4.0 job, but the zero had to make his expected comments about little things which "might affect" the outcome of the sample.  They never invalidated my samples, but simply wrote up their notes and zipped out of Nucleonics and I never heard another word.  And thus the show was over.

[Already Gone]

My problem with stories like this is twofold.

First, integrity is one of the principles of the program.  You guys hide behind "I'm smarter then the watch officer and I therefore know better" persona if you want to make yourself feel better....but I openly question your integrity.  You guys chose the easy way out vice doing your job properly.  All nukes, officer and enlisted, are called upon to ask questions when they arise.  Instead of thinking the watch officer is an idiot or a jackass, take the time to show him why he's wrong and your right.  If he still disagrees, use your chain of command.....LPO, LCPO, DIVO.   There again, this is watchteam back-up, another principle of the program.  Blatantly disregarding an order from a senior is wrong, wrong, wrong!!!!

Second, there are lots of nuke wanna-be's and junior nukes who read these posts.  You openly advocate "getting one by" the watch officer.   These young guys are going to take that advice to heart and think that is the way things get done in the fleet.   Your are advocating actions that are contrary to the collective good.  Shame on you!!!

Oh, if Barry Jackson or any other watch stander, officer or enlisted had told me he was going to do whatever he wanted vice what I said as the EOOW, we would have issues.  I would have called RL Div LPO, LCPO, and CRA to the box and we all would have had a discussion in regards to formality, compliance with procedures, and disrespect prior to me authorizing the add.

Before you slam on me for not understanding what I speak of, I was enlisted for eight+ years prior to getting commissioned, so I have walked a mile in your shoes.

All I can say to that is don't be so full of yourself. -- Which was precisely the problem with those very junior officers who changed additions.  They, for some inexplicable reason, believed themselves to have the superhuman capacity to discern the difference between 350 grams and 360 grams on those nomographs.  We're talking about a blurry copy of a semi-logarhythmic graph that had been marked up, laminated, measures with a rusty ruler, and not so damned accurate to begin with.

We're talking about a snot-nose who thought that proving he could read a graph better than the ELT was justification for making my logs look like $h!t - even assuming that he COULD tell the difference between 350 and 360, the extra 10 grams would be about the same amount that got rocked up on the screen of the fill funnel, or spilled in the bilge, or left stuck to the walls of the beaker ... etc.

We're talking about people who relied on us to save their nuclear reactor from melting, but still thought it wise to treat us like children by continually correcting our work.  That got fixed, one way or another.

We are NOT talking about ELT's falsifying records or disobeying orders.  We are talking about good ol' Barry getting the message through to a JO that "I know what I'm doing.  I don't need you to micromanage my job.  It will be done properly.  We need to trust each other."  The officer understood completely, knowing that Barry's comment was only partly in jest.

I did, as LELT, have the opportunity to "counsel" these young officers - usually over beers - that they were not empowered by Congress to alter a log entry that was made by a watchstander (the add calc made by an ELT) even if they were authorized to review and approve that entry.  I "instructed them" in the proper method of keeping themselves from looking like idiots and committing it to paper.
They almost all got the message, and we got along fine.  By the time their bars turned silver, they stopped questioning us and started asking us questions.  (Ponder the subtle difference for a moment.)

The officers who had a clue learned to depend on the white-hats; they learned to trust, respect, and rely on us.  We gave them good reason to do so.

I learned at a young age that the duty of an enlisted man was to make the officers look like the geniuses that they wished they were.  You let them take credit for every brilliant move you make, and you stop them from making blunders that will embarrass them.  They, if they are smart, remember who did what to keep the CO from dumping on them.  Officers who are praised by the Captain are easier to live with than the ones with his boot up their a$$.
When they became CO's themselves, they pretended that their JO's were as smart as they seemed to be. 
There is a lot of "winking and nodding" involved in the politics of a boat, but none of it amounts to a lack of integrity or deliberate misconduct.  It is the way men deal with each other, and it has always worked.

[Marlin]

All I can say to that is don't be so full of yourself. -- Which was precisely the problem with those very junior officers who changed additions.  They, for some inexplicable reason, believed themselves to have the superhuman capacity to discern the difference between 350 grams and 360 grams on those nomographs.  We're talking about a blurry copy of a semi-logarhythmic graph that had been marked up, laminated, measures with a rusty ruler, and not so damned accurate to begin with.

We're talking about a snot-nose who thought that proving he could read a graph better than the ELT was justification for making my logs look like $h!t - even assuming that he COULD tell the difference between 350 and 360, the extra 10 grams would be about the same amount that got rocked up on the screen of the fill funnel, or spilled in the bilge, or left stuck to the walls of the beaker ... etc.

We're talking about people who relied on us to save their nuclear reactor from melting, but still thought it wise to treat us like children by continually correcting our work.  That got fixed, one way or another.

We are NOT talking about ELT's falsifying records or disobeying orders.  We are talking about good ol' Barry getting the message through to a JO that "I know what I'm doing.  I don't need you to micromanage my job.  It will be done properly.  We need to trust each other."  The officer understood completely, knowing that Barry's comment was only partly in jest.

I did, as LELT, have the opportunity to "counsel" these young officers - usually over beers - that they were not empowered by Congress to alter a log entry that was made by a watchstander (the add calc made by an ELT) even if they were authorized to review and approve that entry.  I "instructed them" in the proper method of keeping themselves from looking like idiots and committing it to paper.
They almost all got the message, and we got along fine.  By the time their bars turned silver, they stopped questioning us and started asking us questions.  (Ponder the subtle difference for a moment.)

The officers who had a clue learned to depend on the white-hats; they learned to trust, respect, and rely on us.  We gave them good reason to do so.

I learned at a young age that the duty of an enlisted man was to make the officers look like the geniuses that they wished they were.  You let them take credit for every brilliant move you make, and you stop them from making blunders that will embarrass them.  They, if they are smart, remember who did what to keep the CO from dumping on them.  Officers who are praised by the Captain are easier to live with than the ones with his boot up their a$$.
When they became CO's themselves, they pretended that their JO's were as smart as they seemed to be. 
There is a lot of "winking and nodding" involved in the politics of a boat, but none of it amounts to a lack of integrity or deliberate misconduct.  It is the way men deal with each other, and it has always worked.

A lot of truth here. I had a JO EOOW who virtually gave me a valve for valve direction for enginroom startup, it was tedious and cumbersome. When the Engineer was the EOOW, my orders were EWS start up the engine room. We tended to view the JO's as senior officers in training that being said we had plenty of nub enlisted on board that needed to get a handle on things, that usually happened about the end of their first tour of sea duty.

[ddklbl]

[...]
I'm spewing milk out of my nose at all the former O-gangers here who claim to have consistently busted the ELT's on their BS.  Brother, you only caught the easy ones.  Every ELT has a bad day once in awhile, but the ratio of times that you threw the flag to the number of times that they put one right past you would require scientific notation to fit on this screen.  There was a reason we called you Zeroes.

I used to "love" those times when some JO decided to change the S/G additions by 10 grams, when we consistently added 50 grams "for the pot" anyway.  Those nomographs said one thing, but we knew how much to really add to get the numbers we wanted.  No Lt. (j.g.) with a ruler and a 5th generation Xerox copy of the nomograph was ever going to change that.  My favorite instance was when a smirking EOOW told Barry Jackson that he had changed his calculation.  Barry's answer told the whole story:  "It doesn't matter, I'm going to add what I want anyway."
[...]

[...]
We are NOT talking about ELT's falsifying records or disobeying orders.  We are talking about good ol' Barry getting the message through to a JO that "I know what I'm doing.  I don't need you to micromanage my job.  It will be done properly.  We need to trust each other."  The officer understood completely, knowing that Barry's comment was only partly in jest.

I did, as LELT, have the opportunity to "counsel" these young officers - usually over beers - that they were not empowered by Congress to alter a log entry that was made by a watchstander (the add calc made by an ELT) even if they were authorized to review and approve that entry.  I "instructed them" in the proper method of keeping themselves from looking like idiots and committing it to paper.
They almost all got the message, and we got along fine.  By the time their bars turned silver, they stopped questioning us and started asking us questions.  (Ponder the subtle difference for a moment.)
[...]

Interesting, the first quote is definably divisive, and the latter more amicable.  Excuse me if I continue to question yours and others sincerity in the matter.

Yes, a-holes like that were and will always be a pain in the ass.  As marlin said, operating in atmospheres such as that can be tedious and cumbersome.  So is the business of the nuclear navy.  What would the harm be in doing the EOOW's 10 gram amended add?  What would it hurt, your pride?  The worst thing that could happen is the after add would come back... exactly the same.  So be it.  My whole point is that people want to argue and prove whose member is the largest, i.e. my crow trumps your college degree.  Get over it and do his add.  Take the after add results and show him the actual outcome compared to his and yours expected results.  Prove to him the differences between theory and reality.  I don't mean to confine this argument to chemistry, it applies across the board. 

What I am trying to say is there is training to be had in each and every evolution we do.  The only thing you taught the EOOW, with comments such as "I'll just do it my way, regardless" is to not trust you.  No matter what you say, comments like that are not made in jest.  That is the underlying culture that will poison a department. 

BC, Hydro, Rummy... I am not lecturing you.  Well, I am, but I acknowledge the weight my words have on you... none.  The fact of the matter is, these boards are read by baby nukes ...and others.  It's crappy attitudes like "my way", verbal or not, and the subsequent "integrity bending", that truly poison a department.  If that is how you truly feel, as I read in your posts, then I am glad you are all out of the Navy.  That way you can't corrupt anyone else.

edited to be in compliance with rule #6 lest anyone should be distracted from what I am saying by how I chose to say it

[HydroDave63]

It just really bothers me that Moderators and other established members of this forum would condone and advocate this behavior... <snip>

 You follow the rules.  <snip>

If that is how you truly feel, as I read in your posts, then I am glad you are all out of the Navy.  That way you can't corrupt anyone else.

Speaking of following rules, please check out Forum Rule #4. 

[ddklbl]

Speaking of following rules, please check out Forum Rule #4. 

Reading that, all I can think of is standing in line at the galley in boot camp...

"Hands off my Brightworks, Shipmate!"

 

[JustinHEMI05]

I think this thread is probably starting to cross some lines. Perhaps we should all agree to disagree. After all, this argument has been going on since time immemorial and will continue long after we are all dead and buried. Its the nature of the beast. As long as there are officer and enlisted, there will be officers who think they are "all that" and enlisted who will know better. Vice versa. But, there will also be both officers and enlisted who are humble enough to admit when they are wrong and work together for the common good. Either way, nothing we say about it here is going to change anything. We certainly don't need to start attacking careers, integrity and intelligence.

To put it another way... stow the egos and STFU.

Justin

[Marlin]

To put it another way... stow the egos Justin

Nothing wrong with a healthy ego, that being one with room for other healthy egos. If you are a Navy Nuke, a wanna be, or ex-Navy nuke you are awash in them... its best to grow a thick skin and get use to it.

[JustinHEMI05]

Nothing wrong with a healthy ego, that being one with room for other healthy egos. If you are a Navy Nuke, a wanna be, or ex-Navy nuke you are awash in them... its best to grow a thick skin and get use to it.

I don't disagree with that in any way. I am just saying that this thread is probably beyond the scope at this point.

Justin

[Loffy Muffin]

After reading this thread now I remember why I hung out with conners.

[Rad Sponge]

Yeah, I think this discussion has reached the point of diminishing returns. I don't think calculating Tri and Di adds had anything to do with the Hartford.

[rumrunner]

I don't think calculating Tri and Di adds had anything to do with the Hartford.

Thanks for the reality check and getting things back in perspective.  The Hartford appears to be a case where the chilling effect of one officer's command style destroyed the morale of a ship that was in Battle E glory less than two years earlier.  And in the wake of this, many careers lie in ruins - both enlisted and officer.  Unfortunately, as is often the case, those most accountable and responsible for the calamity will be allowed to quietly retire, while the junior people face the prospect of finishing their active duty obligations as de-nuked pariahs.

But allow me one more story to show how crazy some orders can be!  On the Texas in 1981 (CGN-39), we had a significant loss-of-feedwater casualty one night in the middle of the Atlantic.  Lost all feedpumps in #1 plant while running a flank bell.  The throttleman froze and didn't do what he needed to do fast enough.  Two of the three generators were so far out of sight low that we figured they were close to being dry.  We had bad hideout anyway, and now I come down to relieve the watch and find a scrammed plant and secondary chemistry is unknown.  Now comes our brilliant Chief Engineer, who orders me to add chemicals to make the generators - and I quote - "10.75 and 280".  Not 10.8, or 10.9, or even 11.0, but 10.75.  Of course I had no samples to base an add on, and my experience told me that adding anything was going in the wrong direction.  Thankfully he stormed off to micro-manage someone else, and I headed to EOS where my shift's EOOW had just taken over.  Thankfully he was a full Lt. who had an abundance of common sense - we all loved standing watch with him because he treated us like human beings.  I told him what the Engineer told me and he laughed, called the Engineer an idiot, and told me he'd kick my butt if I even reached for the blue and brown cans.  We then returned generator level to normal and I was able to get samples - which were bad high.  We had to do several blowdowns to get things back in shape, and we went a good while before having to do another add.  The good thing about this episode was that the hideout problem in those generators went away.  I guess the shock to the system had a beneficial effect.

[Marlin]

Yeah, I think this discussion has reached the point of diminishing returns. I don't think calculating Tri and Di adds had anything to do with the Hartford.

The Hampton, try and keep up.

Some horses aren't declared dead until the flesh has been flogged from the bones.  It is hard to be off topic when the thread essentially starts with "check this out".

[Ranger88]

Beercourt,

Integrity didn't even come into play.  We did what we knew to keep the plant in shape and the numbers in spec - sometimes despite the guidance we got from the khaki-klad-klub.

Integrity didn't come into play because you didn't have any.
I'm sure you talked/talk a good game to yourself but never have/had the guts/integrity/trust/reputation required for your chain of command to have listened to your recommendations or reasoning.  Instead of doing the hard thing like making recommended changes and seeing them through you played the lone ranger.
I am sure your overall effect on the nuclear navy and those you have worked with has been much more negative than positive.

As far as disrespect to the JO's, that's an easy game, especially when you aren't man enough to speak your mind.  Showing them respect, training them, working with them is much harder and takes a man not a boy.  I am amazed since you were so smart they didn't just promote you to a NAVSEA 08 position. Oh, that's right you were enlisted like the rest of us because your weren't smart/motivated enough to get/finish a degree or get a commission as an LDO based on merit.

You sure spend allot of time on this forum, either: a) you have a computer at the RCA were you are running the frisker or b) you are so smart and have done so well since the Navy that you retired as a millionaire and like to spend time on the computer lending your expert opinion.

Your nickname wasn't "Spaz" was it? You remind me of the ELT that added to the wrong SG.

I guess I would trust you running a frisker, as long as I could see the readout too.

LOL

[Fermi2]

Beercourt,
Integrity didn't come into play because you didn't have any.
I'm sure you talked/talk a good game to yourself but never have/had the guts/integrity/trust/reputation required for your chain of command to have listened to your recommendations or reasoning.  Instead of doing the hard thing like making recommended changes and seeing them through you played the lone ranger.
I am sure your overall effect on the nuclear navy and those you have worked with has been much more negative than positive.

As far as disrespect to the JO's, that's an easy game, especially when you aren't man enough to speak your mind.  Showing them respect, training them, working with them is much harder and takes a man not a boy.  I am amazed since you were so smart they didn't just promote you to a NAVSEA 08 position. Oh, that's right you were enlisted like the rest of us because your weren't smart/motivated enough to get/finish a degree or get a commission as an LDO based on merit.

You sure spend allot of time on this forum, either: a) you have a computer at the RCA were you are running the frisker or b) you are so smart and have done so well since the Navy that you retired as a millionaire and like to spend time on the computer lending your expert opinion.

Your nickname wasn't "Spaz" was it? You remind me of the ELT that added to the wrong SG.

I guess I would trust you running a frisker, as long as I could see the readout too.

LOL

Grow up child.

Mike

[rumrunner]

b) you are so smart and have done so well since the Navy that you retired as a millionaire and like to spend time on the computer lending your expert opinion.

That's me!  In fact I retired in January at the age of 51.  I love it!

[shovelheadred]

....I stayed out as long as I could...Jason-YP were you an ELT?,,if not you don't know the magic...tell me how to do a morpholine sample...maybe a PH sample..I know you can do a conductivity,,or maybe a turbidity,,just drop a couple drops in the jar..what color is it?

and DD..shut up..you K%&$$ A$$..your post will not get you a raise

...this was never brought up, but the whole RL division could have done this to burn a watch officer that burned them...do not tell me this doesn't happen.....I got burned by a watch officer, not over my ELT abilities, over a personal matter..and I did my job, and waited,,,but his old lady burned him, when he came home unexpectantly from a cruise..

All of this "the new ELT's are a bunch of slugs..and the grey haired ones radioed their logs is a bunch of CR%^p...I do not care who you are, surface or sub, at one time or another, you either radioed a log, adjusted a valve to make a temperature come into spec next hour..didn't bite enough end off the wire..or spit sunflower seeds on the panel when the watch officer wasn't looking..

none of you are perfect...and that is what some of you are trying to portray yourself as...I like Beercourt and Rumrunner graduated from that canoe club in the 80's...I haven't drawn a primary sample in over 20 years, and don't want to...I have made a little moonshine,,,and grown a cash crop behind the barn....but again like beercourt( who you slammed for his computer time, what he does with his time is his business) and Rumrunner who is retired...I work very little,,,make a good dollar,,,enjoy reading what you wet behind the ear know it all's write...because I did my time, I did my job, I trained my relief, and when I got off watch, I left it in the Nuke Shak...along with a smell of a skunk..oh, sorry we were in before the urinalysis....so keep em coming girls, I enjoy a good comedy show as much as the next guy....red

[cincinnatinuke]

....I stayed out as long as I could...Jason-YP were you an ELT?,,if not you don't know the magic...tell me how to do a morpholine sample...maybe a PH sample..I know you can do a conductivity,,or maybe a turbidity,,just drop a couple drops in the jar..what color is it?

And I avoided this portion of the topic until now.  I know Jason personally and I think you are at a point in calling him out where you are reacting on pure emotion and COMPLETELY missed his point.  Jason merely asked that the discussion get back on topic, but you see where its gone since his plea?  You  reacted when folks called Rumrunner out since you knew him personally and I am asking you to show the same courtesy here to a friend of mine.  Jason was an ELT ( a sub ELT so cut him some slack) and I have worked with him commercially as a Chemist.  He has also got a fair amount of HP time (qualified SHP....which may not hold the same weight it once did) and now is an operator.

And Jason, before you get all mushy, remember I'm from Alabama despite my handle and have no real emotions.  So enough of the Oprah, life partner talk.

As for the rest of this topic..................You are all NAZI's!!!!   Sorry.  But as heated as it was getting I figured I would throw that one in, since according to that wonderful You tube video I saw here a few weeks back, it was inevitable.

[Rad Sponge]

And I avoided this portion of the topic until now.  I know Jason personally and I think you are at a point in calling him out where you are reacting on pure emotion and COMPLETELY missed his point.  Jason merely asked that the discussion get back on topic, but you see where its gone since his plea?  You  reacted when folks called Rumrunner out since you knew him personally and I am asking you to show the same courtesy here to a friend of mine.  Jason was an ELT ( a sub ELT so cut him some slack) and I have worked with him commercially as a Chemist.  He has also got a fair amount of HP time (qualified SHP....which may not hold the same weight it once did) and now is an operator.

And Jason, before you get all mushy, remember I'm from Alabama despite my handle and have no real emotions.  So enough of the Oprah, life partner talk.

As for the rest of this topic..................You are all NAZI's!!!!   Sorry.  But as heated as it was getting I figured I would throw that one in, since according to that wonderful You tube video I saw here a few weeks back, it was inevitable.

Thanks, buddy. I am truly touched that you have my back.

Now I must get back to the fuel floor.

You mentioned magic. ELT is not magic. Watching hundreds of people take apart a reactor and put it back together again, now that's a trick.

[JustinHEMI05]

I am out of pop corn. 

Justin

[rumrunner]

I am out of pop corn. 

Now that's where I draw the line. I never ate in the nuke shack.  I only drank coffee and bug juice in there.

I guess this thread is headed for deletion or closure by the staff.  Based on my experience as an admin on other forums, it probably needs it.  But all I can say is it is a shame that some of us come in and make a few honest comments about A FEW episodes over long periods of time, and some others decide to wrap themselves in the Navy banner, hold a copy of the 0152 in their hands like the holy grail, and commence to judge others based solely on what they wrote here - having never served with us or even knowing us.  Yet we are unethical scumbags - just because of what we wrote in this forum.  I guess this is a good weekend to reflect on that.

[shovelheadred]

...OK...so I put my 2 cents worth in...not tootin my own horn...I got out of RP in 91..went with Master-Lee as a manipulator crane operator,,so that magic you are talking about..is muscle and equipment...and knowledge of limits and locations, and working off the SRO's license,,no magic to it...I now work for Beercourt, as safety oversight, with GE Turbine group,not a safety tech.I am working a coal plant now...you can have the Nukes, give me a UNION MILLWRIGHT,,and a crane operator and they can turn the world upside down...so give me some credit, as not being an RP....Broadzilla knows what it takes to move fuel on his license,,and that radioing a sample, or missing a dose rate doesn't come close to the response you will get from the NRC,when you go to the wrong location in the core,,and just attempt to lower the grapple,,stop the outage, go to the green table,,,fines, loss of millions of dollars..and his license...so there you go....give credit where credit is due...red

[Fermi2]

...OK...so I put my 2 cents worth in...not tootin my own horn...I got out of RP in 91..went with Master-Lee as a manipulator crane operator,,so that magic you are talking about..is muscle and equipment...and knowledge of limits and locations, and working off the SRO's license,,no magic to it...I now work for Beercourt, as safety oversight, with GE Turbine group,not a safety tech.I am working a coal plant now...you can have the Nukes, give me a UNION MILLWRIGHT,,and a crane operator and they can turn the world upside down...so give me some credit, as not being an RP....Broadzilla knows what it takes to move fuel on his license,,and that radioing a sample, or missing a dose rate doesn't come close to the response you will get from the NRC,when you go to the wrong location in the core,,and just attempt to lower the grapple,,stop the outage, go to the green table,,,fines, loss of millions of dollars..and his license...so there you go....give credit where credit is due...red

Well said.

Mike

[fueldryer]

Where the hell are you that there are hundreds of people taking apart a reactor and putting it back together again?I've been taking apart reactors and running minipulator cranes for 20 years and never once seen hundreds of people doing that part of the work.And as Red said it's not magic at all..