SRO Certification vs License

[subshooter]

What is the motivation that a company would have in offering a new hire an Instant SRO training program leading to a SRO certification vice a full NRC license?  I understand that the company certifies SROs and the NRC licenses and therefore a certification does not allow the individual to operate a plant.  I also understand that some companies desire that some employees establish a foundation in the operations side of the plant in preparation for follow on positions (such as instructors).  Please correct me if I have a misconception here.

I am in early discussions with two companies for executive level positions and both are talking to me about obtaining a certification and then moving into a management position within the company.

Since I am new to the commercial business, I am suspicious (or perhaps just ignorant) as to the motivation of the company executives that I am dealing with.  Any insight into the senior management perspective would be appreciated.  I have looked at bios of VPs and many only had certifications vice full licenses or perhaps they just let the licenses expire or the license decays into a certification if not maintained – I really have no idea.

Any thoughts?

[JohnK87]

The NRC does not like licensees to have "recreational" licenses.  If you get an SRO, you're expected to be in a job that uses it.

We used to SRO cert by taking the program through the audit, you got the same knowledge base as an operator and that knowledge was helpful in management.  Like most good things, without the requirements of an accredited training program, extreme pressure was put on to shorten the timeframe.  Certs range from near-equivalent to a joke in the industry.  The other cost savings is that certs require little or no continuing training.

I prefer to get the license, use it a couple years, then move on (previously licensed).  Better on your resume, better experience.

[Fermi2]

Define Executive level? Usually if they are hiring in an executive, by that I mean VP, they don't require anything to take the position.

An SRO Certification means you go through most of the SRO Training, you'll do some on shift time as a trainee but won't be allowed to manipulate equipment. You'll do systems training, procedures training and some simulator training. In the end you'll get an SRO Certification. This would allow instructors to teach Licensed Operators. It's not a License. It's also a way to give plant personnel exposure to an oPs Background. Some Utilities issue SRO Certifications to SRO Candidates after that pass their audit exam but before they take their NRC Final.

There is no such thing as turning an SRO License into a Certification. If you are Licensed you're in one of three status:

1: Active: You've passed all your training and have completed either 5 twelve hour of 7 eight hour watches per quarter.

2: Current: You've passed all your training but have not done the watches in a quarter.

3: Inactive: You've done neither.


I'm not 100% sure what the term recreational license means. The NRC doesn't care how many licenses a utility has. It's a burden on the Utility to carry licenses they don't need but so long as you keep them adequately trained the NRC doesn't care.

Mike

[rlbinc]

In the past - lets talk fifteen to twenty years ago, we had a class of people referred to as "Hobby Licenses". These were SRO Licensed people who never operated the plant.
The NRC, in those days, preferred that Operations Managers and Plant Managers should have (or have had in the past) an NRC SRO License. This primarily facilitates communication on technical issues. If I told you right now that your plant entered an unplanned 3.0.3 condition, I might rightly expect a High Cognitive Order Blank Stare, as a response. SROs know that a 3.0.3 statement is a Limiting Condition for Operation, which progressively requires plant Shutdown and Cooldown in the next day or so.

The scourge of Hobby Licenses clogged up NRC Dockets, Requal Training Programs, and resulted in unnecessary expense to maintain Licenses, Physicals, Records, and support staff.

So many plants have adopted SRO Certification, as a substitute for a 10CFR55 Operator License. SRO Certifications require less maintenance, no physicals, and result in no government or regulatory burden.

To get an SRO Certification, you basically do everything a License Candidate does - except - License Application, Physical, and The Big Dance.

The real convenience for a Manager happens if the plant is ever unfortunate enough to experience an Enforcement Investigation. The NRC maintains a unique relationship with its Licensees, which becomes evident during such trying times.  The SRO Certified folks aren't even on the guest list, on many occasions. And if you have any political experience with your current employer, you'll recognize that as a pretty serious convenience issue. 

[subshooter]

Mike,

Based on several VP bios I have read which only show a SRO certification in their past, it appears that it is possible to attain VP level, site VP level, PM without ever obtaining an SRO license first.   Since they did not obtain an actual license, then it is not possible for them to have been a unit supervisor, shift manager, ops manager etc.  Am I mistaken on this point?  I invite you to peruse the executive profile of William Levis, President/CEO of PSEG nuclear as one example.  http://www.pseg.com/about/executive_profiles/pdf/levis.pdf

Without much effort, I easily found three others with similar backgrounds and only a SRO certification.  I particularly enjoyed reading Mr. Levis last two sentences in his bio for reasons that will become apparent to you.

Therefore, it would appear the career track that you mentioned in your PM to me earlier this week, although perhaps a normal career track, is not constrained by the uncompromising laws of nuclear physics.

Mark

[Fermi2]

I never said it was impossible, I said it won't be done in 10 years. I loved the last sentence on your last post. It still has me chuckling. Nukes have the darndest way of wording things. You said a couple companies were interested in you for executive positions. I was asking what you meant by that given you then asked if an SRO Certification was a good step towards management. The best VP I ever worked for at my old utility  had an SRO License and an Associates Degree. He was also an Ex Jarhead.


Mike's Law: If you have a mishap your fellow operators will still say Operator Error no matter what the root cause said.

Mike

[subshooter]

Mike,

I had contemplated introducing Heisnberg's uncertainty principal into your highly structured and constrained career path to demonstrate other possible alternatives and outcomes.  However, my wife convinced me not to bring up quantum/string theory for the 100th time which would only serve to expose my inner geekdom.  After all, I do have a personality outside of the work place.

See ya in the board room in 10 years.  Actually, make that nine - I have had a few pints of liquid courage this evening.

Cheers,
Mark

[Nuclear Renaissance]

"Heisnberg's uncertainty principal"

What does the headmaster of Heisenberg's high school have to do with quantum theory?

[Fermi2]

Mike,

I had contemplated introducing Heisnberg's uncertainty principal into your highly structured and constrained career path to demonstrate other possible alternatives and outcomes.  However, my wife convinced me not to bring up quantum/string theory for the 100th time which would only serve to expose my inner geekdom.  After all, I do have a personality outside of the work place.

See ya in the board room in 10 years.  Actually, make that nine - I have had a few pints of liquid courage this evening.

Cheers,
Mark

LOL!!!! I gave up liquid courage a few years back (well for the most part).
If I'm still working in 9 years.... Actually my wife says I'll be working until the day I die.

Also note, Mr Levis was in the industry for 17 years before he became a VP. That's right in line with what I told you.

Mike

[RDTroja]

What does the headmaster of Heisenberg's high school have to do with quantum theory?

I think that would be his principal principle.

[subshooter]

Dear Mike,

I admire your tenacity and conviction to stand by your initial assertions but if I may offer below, just one example of an individual who did not fit your career path constraints.

In 2005, Exelon Corp had 153 executives at or above the VP level.  The youngest was only 36 years old and had been with the company only 7 years.   http://www.businessweek.com/careers/bplc/companies_49.htm. 

Even if this VP was just promoted to his new position at the time of this survey (unlikely), and was in the industry continuously since he graduated from college (maybe), he was still only in the industry for less than 14 years after graduating.  Therefore, without any previous experience to leverage as a springboard, he still attained VP status in less than 14 years – perhaps only 10 years.

A quick check of the statistics of the other utilities indicate a similar finding.

That said, the companies clearly place a premium on the SRO license or certification which is invariably a requirement for their VPs on the nuclear/operations side.   However, most VPs in the OPs area obtained certifications vice licenses which means they were never CRS, SM, Ops Manager.

I would also offer that there are many ways to skin a cat and that each of the VP career paths were actually quite different and few really fit a standard mold – the beauty of free markets!

Mark

[Len61]

In 2005, Exelon Corp had 153 executives at or above the VP level.  The youngest was only 36 years old and had been with the company only 7 years.   http://www.businessweek.com/careers/bplc/companies_49.htm. 

There are no specifics about these VP's on that web page.
He could be the VP in charge of TP for all we know.
I guess if all you are looking for is a title to pad a resume, it doesn't matter if it's VP of TP or VP of the nuclear fleet.

[Fermi2]

Most? I'll guarantee you, given I've been in the real nuke world 17.5 years longer than you have that MOST VPs were an Ops Manager at one time and carried an SRO LICENSE. Many times corporate portfolios exchange License and Certification. They also omit anything prior to PM. You said you wanted to be a Site VP. I guarantee you'll have to go the route I sent you via PM in order to get there. Based on your willingness to not be open to input and proven ability to ascertain "facts" from air my guess is you won't reach your stated goal in the time frame you allotted yourself.

Mike

[subshooter]

Dear Mike,

I appreciate, admire, and respect your 17.5 years of experience in the commercial nuclear power industry.  You have a lot to be proud of. (oops…a dangling participle)

Contrary to your assertion, I am open to input which oddly enough is exactly why I initiated this thread.  However, I am not open to the idea that there is only one way to get from point A to B with no variability to allow for the right people to be put in the right positions.

Allow me to paste below part of a PM I received after your last post to me.  In deference to his personal privacy, I have left out his plant and identity.

"With that said, the guys at work have said that several of the Site VPs over the years have been direct hire senior officers.  I know this to be fact because one of them was the CO of the sub I was on."

This is just another example that other paths are possible. 

To answer your comment to me:  "I guarantee you'll have to go the route I sent you”.  I have already provided examples of VPs who have not lived under your career path constraints.

Since I only have to come up with one example of an individual who doesn't fit your career path, my job is easy.  Here is another Plant Manager who was never a SM or Ops manager.  She is also a woman and her career path was very unusual.  http://www.diversitycareers.com/articles/pro/febmar03/att_landahl.htm

The bottom line is that companies will put the right people in the right jobs.  Is it ideal to follow the CRS/SM/OPS Man/PM/VP route?  Perhaps, but obviously not required.

Are you ready to concede that there is more than one way to skin a cat?...or shall I obtain more company press releases that are pulled out of “thin air”?  the internet is steeped in examples of successful VPs that have violated the "Broadzilla laws of career paths".

(I say that totally tongue in cheek) 

Cheers,
Mark

[Kev3399]

Bottomline subshooter is this........If you don't go the path of those on here who have over 800 posts and 750 karma, then you are wrong.

Save yourself the time at the keyboard. Go for the goals you have set and don't look back. Some paths might be less beaten than others. My motivation in everything I've ever done in my life comes from the fact that someone, somewhere, at some point in time told me I couldn't do it.

[Marlin]

One of my Skippers went straight to management and then on to Senior VP within 10 years.

[Roll Tide]

I feel the need to add my $.02 here, since I sat back and watched this for a while.

You can get an SRO Cert to become an instructor.
You can become a Licensed SRO and then become an instructor.
As a student, I would prefer the Licensed SRO as my instructor. He knows more about how the important parts of the plant interface, because he has actually done it.

You can get an SRO Cert to become a member of the Licensing group.
You can become a Licensed SRO and then transfer to Licensing.
As an Operator, I would prefer the Licensed SRO to evaluate changes to License documents, because he knows how it impacts OPS.

You can get an SRO Cert to become a member of plant management.
You can become a Licensed SRO and then become a member of plant management.
As a Supervisor in OPS, I prefer to work for a previously licensed management team, because they truly know why it is important for the organization to be led by OPS.


You can go either route. If a utility doesn't see the need for you to have an actual license and experience, perhaps they don't have the mentality you would like to have for your career. Maybe they won't be the worst utility, but they will never be the best (based on INPO reports). You sound like someone I could work with, and I would like to work for you when you are ready. But I have worked for people that weren't ready, and it isn't pretty.


EDIT: Spelling correction (OCD kicking in) RT

[JustinHEMI05]

I feel the need to add my $.02 here, since I sat back and watched this for a while.

You can get an SRO Cert to become an instructor.
You can become a Licensed SRO and then become an instructor.
As a student, I would prefer the Licensed SRO as my instructor. He knows more about how the important parts of the plant interface, because he has actually done it.

You can get an SRO Cert to become a member of the Licensing group.
You can become a Licensed SRO and then transfer to Licensing.
As an Operator, I would prefer the Licensed SRO to evaluate changes to License documents, because he knows how it impacts OPS.

You can get an SRO Cert to become a member of plant management.
You can become a Licensed SRO and then become a member of plant management.
As a Supervisor in OPS, I prefer to work for a previously licensed management team, because they truly know why it is important for the organization to be led by OPS.


You can go either route. If a utility doesn't see the need for you to have an actual license and experience, perhaps they don't have the mentality you would like to have for your career. Maybe they won't be the worst utility, but they will never be the best (based on INPO reports). You sound like someone I could work with, and I would like to work for you when you are ready. But I have worked for people that weren't ready, and it isn't pretty.


EDIT: Spelling correction (OCD kicking in) RT

I know this thread is old, but I have been wanting to put my .02 cents in but couldn't. Speaking from my own first 6 months of experience in this industry, I can say without a doubt that MOST manager or instructors that never held a license to operate a plant will never truly be held in the same light or get the same respect as previously licensed individuals. Having an active or previously holding a license is everything and more important than any degree. If I had a dollar for every time I heard "you are just an instructor, he has/had a license, know your place" in the last 6 months... well... I could buy a new TV. Point is, do what you will with your career, but I recommend you strongly consider you place in this world (commercial nukes) and realize that you really need to get that credential under your belt. I heeded the advice of the people here that have the experience, and frankly... run the industry right now... and I am now in a licensing program (family health issues also contributed in a major way to needing to relocate). Again this is based only on six months of experience at one plant, so I might be off a bit. But, I strongly suspect that other plants hold having a license in the same light.

Justin

[nuketarded]

The license is the thing to have. However, the farther you get form the line organization (plant) the more blurry the line between the cert and the license becomes, though the two are never confused.  At the plant "you don't have a license shut-up" is the prevailing attitude.  Once the license is obtained the same opinion is given some greater weight depending on the receiver (then you have to get an engineer to tell you if it's o.k.).  There are a lot of people who define their life's own value based on their license(s).  I've met licensed operators who scared the h@ll out of me (these guys are more apt to view their license as the red badge of courage).  At the same time I believe that I know a group who would easily pass the Mensa challenge.  The license is a convenient way to some up ability and knowledge so getting it is the best way for anyone to get on track, regardless of other aptitude.  The cert does have value but it varies depending on the level of actual training and the opinion of the fellow hiring.

I'll go ahead and state the obvious -this is my opinion, others vary.

[30378wby]

interesting posts, at my utility the SRO certs do everything that an SRO license does throughout class.  They have to pass all the same tests and all the same oral boards and physical exams, etc.  The only thing they don't do is take the NRC SRO exam, they take a separate written exam but no simulator or JPMs, but they have to do everything a regular SRO does until the end.  Basically they know everything a licensed SRO does they just didn't get to play in the majors.

[Creeker]

At my utility, there is a perception...that a license can be detrimental to upward mobility.  Reason?  We are short of SRO's, as I beleive the rest of the industry is.  It's not going to get any better in the near future, as more plants break ground, the work force ages, and the NRC FFD rules get put into play.  I guess what I'm trying to say, is a License can be a chain to the control room for longer and longer periods of time.  A cert, on the other hand, won't ever be called back to work CRS as someone retires, and this years class didn't graduate as many as hoped for.

[M1Ark]

Subshooter,

You can attain VP level at a utility as long as you stay corporate.  It'll be easy to wow the corporate types with your sea stories in the nuclear navy.  An SRO cert would also be another feather in your cap.  But I would recommend NOT getting a real SRO license and NOT following the career path Broadzilla has stated.  There are too many sharp people that'll stand in your way.  The job itself is very difficult and can be career limiting if you are not able to handle it.

A navy officer in initial license class was asking me how to get a executive job at corporate after he obtained his SRO license.  I told him he had already screwed up his opportunity since his brilliance was diminishing each day he came to work.  If corporate was his goal then he should have applied for a corporate position and simply stated he was a submarine watch officer.  The guy ended up getting his SRO license but was nearly kicked out of the program on numerous occasions.  They are letting him stand STA and nothing else.  Needless to say his hopes and dreams for that corporate vp position is far from his mind right now.

Subshooter, you might not pass an SRO Certification class, have you thought of that?

[thenuttyneutron]

Wow!

Way to kick an old thread.  I have seen the best thing someone can do is make it to the NRC Exam and not pass while still keeping their job.  They have the Cert and end up making more money.  Several people in the class before mine failed and ended up in supervisor jobs making more money and have better hours.

The only way out of ops is through a minor screw up.  That will get you out of ops.  Otherwise you are stuck in OPS.  Look at it from the Companies view.  They put a lot of money in your training.  They are going to get the most out of that investment that they can get.