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theldron

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Non Judicial Punishment
« on: Jan 29, 2008, 07:52 »
Recently (August 28th, 2007; Cleared on September 7th) I was punished at Captain's Mast for reasons involving another shipmate, but is behind me in all actions. My evaluation upon completing A school was 3.0 all the way across. I can get no definite answers about anything concerning the rest of my career. The instructions are varied and in different places. I am particularly interested in Advancing and for Star Reenlistment. I know my advancement to E-3 depends on TIR. Which should be on June 7th, 2008 (9 Months). Does this mean that my TIR  for E-4 starts on June 7th? When does my counter start for STAR reenlistment? Am I still eligible for any programs? Is there anyway to recover in the eyes of a training command? Any help at all would be greatly appreciated.

Offline thenukeman

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Re: Non Judicial Punishment
« Reply #1 on: Jan 29, 2008, 08:21 »
When I was an Officer I gave out Article 15's (ARMY) if you had money taken away the punishment was permanent record, if not it stayed in the file until you left and was thrown away if you did nothing else bad.   If no money taken ask if this is removed from your file and not part of your permanent record.  I tried not to take out money and Would specifically tell my troops this would not follow them if they behaved the rest of the time with me.   Jobs on the outside will also ask about this .  So it is important to know if it is permanent or not.  Also make sure it is pulled if you can.
« Last Edit: Jan 29, 2008, 08:23 by thenukeman »

taterhead

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Re: Non Judicial Punishment
« Reply #2 on: Jan 29, 2008, 08:42 »
Is there anyway to recover in the eyes of a training command? Any help at all would be greatly appreciated.

Last things first...

Is there a way to recover?  Absolutely.  Will it take time?  Yep.  Keep your head down, qualify as fast as you can, and prove yourself a hard worker.  Once NJP is over and done, the next question is what are you going to do?  Some Sailors use it to fuel bitterness and resentment and carry it through their entire enlistment.  Others move up and forward, and the COC forgets about it (as a former LCPO, I can tell you this pretty definitively).  Remember, your LPO, LCPO, DMC, RO all will get relieved before you even get halfway through your tour.

NJP is privacy act information, and cannot be disclosed by the command.  As long as you get that honorable discharge, which there is no reason to think you won't, whether or not you were found guilty of violating the UCMJ 4 years prior is of little consequence.  People go to mast for good and bad reasons.  There is no such thing as "beyond reasonable doubt."  The CO doles it out as he sees it, making it an imperfect system but effective for dealing with minor infractions on the fly.  I am not disagreeing about the Article 15 info, but having dealt with this quite recently, this is my experience.

As for the other questions, those are better off handled by a CCC.  I don't have the instruction in front of me.

Good luck-
« Last Edit: Jan 29, 2008, 08:47 by taterhead »

theldron

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Re: Non Judicial Punishment
« Reply #3 on: Jan 30, 2008, 04:55 »
Thanks for the posts

Fermi2

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Re: Non Judicial Punishment
« Reply #4 on: Jan 30, 2008, 05:40 »
You should have kept your nose clean.


Mike

theldron

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Re: Non Judicial Punishment
« Reply #5 on: Jan 30, 2008, 05:52 »
You don't even have an idea as to what I did or didn't do. I didn't post this to have you flame me, or to look down on me. Was merely asking advice from senior enlisted or officer personnel who might know something I don't in light of the questions I asked. If you don't have something helpful to add please don't add anything at all.

ddklbl

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Re: Non Judicial Punishment
« Reply #6 on: Jan 30, 2008, 06:26 »
Don't worry about it.  Do good things from here on out.  There used to be a lot of buzz from the cheap seats about those who didn't make chief failed to do so because they didn't have the DUI requisite to be a part of the club.  Enough CPO's had gotten DUI's to make the perception a reality.  Despite the grumblings from the disgruntled few, a lot of good people have been able to pick themselves up after a fall.

Offline Loffy Muffin

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Re: Non Judicial Punishment
« Reply #7 on: Jan 30, 2008, 06:39 »
Yeah, only dirtbags get NJP...should have requested a courts martial.  

Seriously, the biggest impact to your "career" is that you don't get one of those nice red ribbons at your 4 year point.  I think the A school NJP when you go up for 2nd class will be only an issue because of the low evals, but I think they get dropped after a certain time.  Last two evals get averaged or something like that.  You will not make E-5, most likely, with that eval.  
Plus, if you get another NJP you might be disqualed.  show up for watch early and get two alarm clocks, with one battery powered.  

Outside of the military it only exists in your memory.  

I had a couple of knucklehead A school roommates get wasted and proceed to trash the room, threaten other sailors, and then "ambush" the watchstander as he made his rounds.  Everyone in the room got put on report.  It happens, get used to it.  I wished I could tell you it got better, but it doesn't.  
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taterhead

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Re: Non Judicial Punishment
« Reply #8 on: Jan 30, 2008, 07:33 »
You should have kept your nose clean.


That goes without saying, but we are Sailors, not saints.  We move on.





Offline thenukeman

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Re: Non Judicial Punishment
« Reply #9 on: Jan 30, 2008, 09:20 »
Non-Judicial Punishment Explained
Non-Judicial Punishment (NJP) is known by different terms among the services, such as "Article 15," "Office Hours," or "Captain's Mast," but the purpose of NJP is to discipline servicemembers for minor offenses such as reporting late for duty, petty theft, destroying government property, sleeping on watch, providing false information, and disobeying standing orders.

Note: Determining if an offense is "minor" is a matter of discretion for the commander imposing punishment, but the imposition of punishment for an offense other than a minor offense does not rule out a court-marital for the same offense.

Although the actual punishments under an NJP offense are limited to confinement on diminished rations, restriction to certain specified limits, arrest in quarters, correctional custody, extra duties, forfeiture of pay, detention of pay and reduction in grade. The extent of these punishments depends on the grade of the officer imposing punishment, the grade of the accused, and whether the accused is attached to or embarked on a vessel.

Prior to the imposition of nonjudicial punishment, an accused is entitled to notification:

that the imposition of nonjudicial punishment is being considered;
a description of the alleged offenses;
a summary of the evidence upon which the allegations are based;
notification that the accused has the right to refuse the imposition of punishment;
and any rights the accused has if NJP is accepted.
Except for individuals attached to or embarked on a vessel, servicemembers have the right to refuse the imposition of nonjudicial punishment. However refusal of NJP will normally not result in the dismissal of charges. A commanding officer can still refer the charges to court-martial.

An accused has the right to a personal appearance before the officer imposing punishment. During this appearance, the accused has the right against self-incrimination, the right to be accompanied by a spokesperson, the right to be informed of the evidence against him or her, the right to examine the evidence against him or her, the right to present matters on his or her own behalf, and to have the proceedings open to the public.

An accused may waive a personal appearance, if agreeable to the officer imposing punishment, and submit written matters for consideration by the imposition authority.


 The Military Rules of Evidence, other than rules concerning privileges, do not apply to the imposition of nonjudicial punishment. The officer imposing punishment may consider all relevant matters so long as the accused has been given proper notice and the opportunity to respond. The officer must be convinced of the accused's guilt by a preponderance of the evidence.

The accused may appeal the imposition of nonjudicial punishment on the grounds that it is unjust or disproportionate to the offense. The appeal must be in writing and forwarded to the next superior authority via the officer who imposed punishment.

The appeal must be referred to a judge advocate (JAG) for consideration and advice before the authority who is to act on it may make any decision.

Theldron, The main point is did they take Money.  If they did then you have it as a permanent record for life.  It will go with you. If you are asked this for civilian work clearances and for access to Nuclear power plants etc. you must answer yes. The good point if you keep your nose clean and do right this should not hurt you in the civilian world if you are honest.



theldron

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Re: Non Judicial Punishment
« Reply #10 on: Jan 30, 2008, 09:59 »
They definitely did take money. Reduction in Rank E-2, $250 x 2, 30 days restriction, 30 days extra duties (Suspended 6 months)

I've never never been late, never had an EMI or anything or the sort, all in all I'm a good sailor 3.0 on the eval 2 months after my mast so apparently I have changed things for the better in the eyes of at least the people dealing with me on a day to day basis.

I had put in a chit to have my rank mitigated back to E-3 I had a Chief and a Master Chief(SLPO and Class Director) going to bat for me but somewhere higher up someone didn't agree.

Thanks for all the advice.

taterhead

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Re: Non Judicial Punishment
« Reply #11 on: Jan 30, 2008, 10:18 »
Sorry Nukeman, I just don't see it.  I am dense, but I think you might be a little off.

If you are asked if you have ever been convicted of a crime, felony or misdemeanor, and all you have is a Captain's Mast for not shaving 3 days in a row, then you do not need to divulge it.  If you are asked if you received any non-judicial punishment or military discipline, then you must answer yes, and if that is what you mean, then that is a different question, and you have to own up to it (especially if there is a security clearance involved).   It's non-judicial, meaning a non-criminal action. 

Taking money or not taking money is irrelevant.  If the Captain finds you guilty, the punishment is irrelevant.  You get an entry in your service record just for being found guilty at mast, whether your punishment is taking money or scrubbing a toilet.

I guess I just don't see your point.  We might actually be agreeing for all I can tell.

Offline G-reg

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Re: Non Judicial Punishment
« Reply #12 on: Jan 30, 2008, 11:56 »
Regarding advancement, the rules for TIR are kind of slippery when rate is made in a way other than from an advancement exam (like NJP or Command Advancements).  I would take this up with your Command Career Counselor, and have him SHOW YOU what the exact words of the rules are.

As for STAR (like many other programs), there are caveats for "No NJP in the past ___ months".  The time varies from 6 months for some programs, up to 36 months for the really selective programs.  Again, you and your Career Counselor should sit down and go through the all of the applicable reference documents regarding this.

The main thing is that you NOT take the CCC's word (or even my word) on the rules for TIR and STAR - don't believe anything you haven't read with your own eyes.  I'm not trying to say that anybody is going to "bum gouge" you deliberately, but nobody is perfect*.  Don't let a mistake on your part or somebody else's muck up your next advancement or reenlistment - make sure that everything is done BY THE BOOKS!

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Offline PWHoppe

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Re: Non Judicial Punishment
« Reply #13 on: Jan 31, 2008, 08:19 »
Theldron, The main point is did they take Money.  If they did then you have it as a permanent record for life.  It will go with you. If you are asked this for civilian work clearances and for access to Nuclear power plants etc. you must answer yes. The good point if you keep your nose clean and do right this should not hurt you in the civilian world if you are honest.

Nukeman,

I'm not sure where you are working (or have worked) but I have NEVER been asked about going to Captains Mast. I have been in the civilian world for almost 30 years and have never been denied access at any site (>24) nor did it ever come up when I got a "Q" clearance for the DOE. The only thing anybody wanted to see was my discharge paperwork and the fact I had an honorable discharge. Yes, I did go to Mast while in the USN and the only ramification was failure to get a good conduct medal at my 4 year mark (took me 6 to get my first one).

just keep your nose clean theldron and you'll be fine. Thank you for your service ;D
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Offline thenukeman

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Re: Non Judicial Punishment
« Reply #14 on: Jan 31, 2008, 08:50 »
I checked for Federal clearance SF 86  http://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/SF86.pdf

You are correct, It only asked about Discharge,  I know I have been asked on other forms I have filled out.   As an officer I tried to be fair and was specifically told if you take money you create a permanent record.  I tried not to except for real dirtballs.   My commander got mad at me for not being hard enough.   Bottom line if they don't ask don't tell.

The Personal history Questionnaire does ask this for unescorted access to a nuclear plant. 

You must list felony, misdemeanor, traffic** or military criminal history
to include court martial or non-judicial punishment including guilty pleas and “nolo contendere” (meaning no contest);
any suspended sentences, pretrial diversions, dismissals, “nolle prosequi” (meaning not prosecuted). (**You must
include any alcohol/drug-related traffic offenses or those involving suspension or revocation of your driver’s license, but
do not need to list non-injury traffic or parking offenses.)
« Last Edit: Jan 31, 2008, 09:01 by thenukeman »

BuddyThePug

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Re: Non Judicial Punishment
« Reply #15 on: Jan 31, 2008, 09:02 »

all in all I'm a good sailor 3.0 on the eval


You don't even have an idea as to what I did or didn't do. I didn't post this to have you flame me, or to look down on me.

3.0 on the new 5.0 scale is not exactly stellar. Even in the 4.0 days of old, evals at 3.6 or below multiplied by near-aceing the rating exam didn't get advanced.

As far as the tough love here, it isn't nearly as harsh as the judgements, right or wrong, that the senior enlisted will form seeing the bad apple with a recent bust.

The best advice IMHO was Loffy Muffin's. Hard work and humility will be the only remedy. Never admitting fault, and telling people how swell you are, will only confirm their notion that you are not destined for success.

taterhead

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Re: Non Judicial Punishment
« Reply #16 on: Jan 31, 2008, 09:43 »
While students are in the pipeline they are pretty much 3.0 across the board unless they are class leader or have some equivalent collateral duty. 

They aren't really personally evaluated, per se, more or less just mass-evaluated for the sake of easing administrative burden.

Offline PWHoppe

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Re: Non Judicial Punishment
« Reply #17 on: Jan 31, 2008, 10:12 »
The Personal history Questionnaire does ask this for unescorted access to a nuclear plant. 

You must list felony, misdemeanor, traffic** or military criminal history
to include court martial or non-judicial punishment including guilty pleas and “nolo contendere” (meaning no contest);
any suspended sentences, pretrial diversions, dismissals, “nolle prosequi” (meaning not prosecuted). (**You must
include any alcohol/drug-related traffic offenses or those involving suspension or revocation of your driver’s license, but
do not need to list non-injury traffic or parking offenses.)

I stand corrected ;)

Apparently since my introduction to civilian nuclear power the questionnaire has changed somewhat. I haven't filled one of these out in (?) years. I do not recall that statement being on the security documentation that I filled out back in the late '70's, or if it was there I ignored it ::)
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Offline thenukeman

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Re: Non Judicial Punishment
« Reply #18 on: Jan 31, 2008, 10:36 »
I stand corrected, I was also wrong on the SF86 http://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/SF86.pdf It does not ask you about captains Mast in the military part but does ask you in the criminal part, section 23 E.  So I was originally right and did not read far enough the second time, Hopefully the third time is right considering I have now both in writing,  Bottom line Theldron, Keep your nose clean, keep a good attitude, tell the truth when asked about this and you should be OK in 99 percent of the time, If you lie you won't have much of a chance since money has been taken out and the investigator can see this in your military record.
« Last Edit: Jan 31, 2008, 10:37 by thenukeman »

Offline Already Gone

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Re: Non Judicial Punishment
« Reply #19 on: Jan 31, 2008, 12:53 »
I came a little late to this discussion.  Sorry.
There is nothing you can do now about the past.  The best advice has been given:  do better from now on.  If you give your best, nobody is going to care what you did once upon a time.  If you have not been given notice of removal from the program, then you are still in the program - at least for now.  So work it like nothing happened.  Do not listen to rumors.  The Navy is full of BS information.  The only information that counts is what is on paper and the orders they give you.  Got that?  Forget about worrying.  Worry fixes nothing.  Do what you do as well as you can and accept what happens with the knowledge that you did your best.

NJP is absolutely of NO CONCERN once you get out.
I had NJP in the Navy, which resulted in loss of pay, loss of paygrade, and a lot more.  Bottom line - "Have you been convicted of a Felony?"  "No," says I.  "Okay, then, are there any charges pending against you currently?"  "No" once again.  End of discussion.

Actually, they'll ask if you have been convicted of a crime (which includes misdemeanors) but only felonies count against you.  Anything drug-related can be a problem, as well as certain activity that is best described as un-American.  I know of one person who was convicted of murder who worked for years in nuke plants after serving his sentence.  He was a great guy, who got into a fight at the wrong time with the wrong thing in his hand when he was barely an adult, and paid his debt to society.

You can get de-nuked, busted several paygrades, and booted out on a general discharge, and STILL work in civilian nuclear power.  The real question is: did you graduate from the school?

The DOE ... well, let's just say that there needs to be somewhere for people to work after they fail a drug test at a civilian nuke.

Some people, including some on this site, want to believe that they are perfect.  They convince themselves that they are, based on the logic that only a perfect person could possibly do what they have done or have the job that they have.  This is nonsense.  People make mistakes.  I only know of one perfect person, and look what happened to Him.
« Last Edit: Jan 31, 2008, 12:59 by BeerCourt »
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Offline PWHoppe

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Re: Non Judicial Punishment
« Reply #20 on: Jan 31, 2008, 01:12 »
The DOE ... well, let's just say that there needs to be somewhere for people to work after they fail a drug test at a civilian nuke.

Too funny, but true. However those that have always been at DOE sites tend to think their requirements are the same as the power plants. I know better, after the FFD thing started, where did all the techs go who didn't study for the urine exam ??? DOE

NJP is absolutely of NO CONCERN once you get out.
I had NJP in the Navy, which resulted in loss of pay, loss of paygrade, and a lot more.  Bottom line - "Have you been convicted of a Felony?"  "No," says I.  "Okay, then, are there any charges pending against you currently?"  "No" once again.  End of discussion.

Exactly my experience when I got into the civilian world. Maybe that's why I don't remember anything about questions pertaining to NJP...of course that was in the pre-FFD days, so maybe they did ask :-X
« Last Edit: Jan 31, 2008, 01:19 by PWHoppe »
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Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Non Judicial Punishment
« Reply #21 on: Jan 31, 2008, 03:21 »
You don't even have an idea as to what I did or didn't do. I didn't post this to have you flame me, or to look down on me. Was merely asking advice from senior enlisted or officer personnel who might know something I don't in light of the questions I asked. If you don't have something helpful to add please don't add anything at all.

welcome to nukeworker.com shipmate :)

Offline thenukeman

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Re: Non Judicial Punishment
« Reply #22 on: Jan 31, 2008, 05:20 »
But I do agree with Theldron in this, he was asking for help not a kick again while he is down for something he already has done and can not change.  I try to kick people only in the Polysci area when they asked for it, need it, or just for someone being a liberal.  LOL  Here is not the place I would think.

Offline thenukeman

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Re: Non Judicial Punishment
« Reply #23 on: Jan 31, 2008, 05:22 »
DOE is the second chance for Dope smokers,  First time caught there goes your clearance, second time out the door usually.  Nuke Plants 0 tolerance!! 5 years maybe back, but I heard mostly its a permanent ban.

JustinHEMI05

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Re: Non Judicial Punishment
« Reply #24 on: Jan 31, 2008, 05:25 »
welcome to nukeworker.com shipmate :)


I just threw up in my mouth. Thanks.  :P

Justin
« Last Edit: Jan 31, 2008, 06:47 by JustinHEMI05 »

 


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