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PapaBear765

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #125 on: Jun 21, 2008, 05:33 »
Us surface guys have no idea what in the HamSandwich you are talking about

Typical.

If you wanna fix Nuke school, put me in charge :)

Mike

Ok, presto!  You're in charge.  Now cite for me some specific, simple suggestions that I can provide to my CoC that would help the program...as I requested earlier.  Someone wrote that the program would be better off doing training like commercial plants, so educate us simple navy folk.

Offline NJ

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #126 on: Jun 21, 2008, 09:14 »
e-z Pappabear..I agree with Mike.  I worked side by side with navy and the biggest difference was the size of their ego....

PapaBear765

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #127 on: Jun 23, 2008, 08:23 »
I'm not attacking BZ, I'm trying to get someone to stop being vague and general and get specific.  I don't know anything about how the commercial side does business.  If people are saying that it's better than the navy's way, I'd like to know how, so that I can forward some suggestions up my CoC.  I have less than a 1% expectation that anything will come of it, but that's never stopped me in the past from at least trying.
« Last Edit: Jun 23, 2008, 08:38 by PapaBear765 (3363) »

withroaj

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #128 on: Jun 23, 2008, 09:44 »
That is an interesting way to look at it.  How does an organization that came about sixty years ago leading a new, innovative technology and command structure become a slave to the status quo so quickly? 

I am all about staying in if I can continue to be effective, but I would really like to maintain my youthful optimism and idealism in the process.  Can an enlisted guy actually contribute to command climate beyond the "deckplate level" ? (God, I hate buzzwords)

DSO

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #129 on: Jun 23, 2008, 04:50 »
I don't need the Navy to provide me with experienced people for NLO Jobs. I can get what I need from the Junior Colleges, factories and such. We train from the ground up and we have much higher standards for performance so it doesn't matter where I get them from. All I need is someone with High Standards, a willingness to work and some intelligence. 15 years ago I knew I could get the first qualification I mentioned by hiring from the Navy. Now it's simply not true. I've seen some of the rocks the Navy puts out these days so now many don't meet qualification number 3 and so far as two, one doesn't need Navy experience to be a hard worker.

One of the very best ROs I know we snagged from Burger King and in my mind so far as work ethic, standards and plain ability to understand and operate a nuke plant this guy has very few peer, I learned a lot about my current facility from them.

It's my view someone without commercial experience shouldn't be commenting on what type of experience is applicable to the real world.

If you wanna fix Nuke school, put me in charge :)

Mike
I would have to agree about standards going down in the Navy Nuclear Program--I was in 1985-2005 and about midway I noticed a lot of "rocks" in the fleet--The saying for Prototype previously was "We are a filter" and around midway of my time in changed to "We are a Pump" --a septic tank pump obviously. The Navy didn't teach me a thing about being a hard worker, but instead demotivated any attempts at such with their asinine wasting of time with petty crap.  I think they need to look at what thay have changed in the last 20 years in the nuclear pipeline and change it back to the way it used to be--that may entail spending more money on the program and cease trying to squeeze water out of a brick--or a rock in this case.
« Last Edit: Jun 23, 2008, 04:57 by DSO »

Offline Preciousblue1965

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #130 on: Jun 24, 2008, 06:24 »
I would have to agree about standards going down in the Navy Nuclear Program--I was in 1985-2005 and about midway I noticed a lot of "rocks" in the fleet--The saying for Prototype previously was "We are a filter" and around midway of my time in changed to "We are a Pump" --a septic tank pump obviously. The Navy didn't teach me a thing about being a hard worker, but instead demotivated any attempts at such with their asinine wasting of time with petty crap.  I think they need to look at what thay have changed in the last 20 years in the nuclear pipeline and change it back to the way it used to be--that may entail spending more money on the program and cease trying to squeeze water out of a brick--or a rock in this case.

Well I can attest first hand that any "rocks" that we were trying to squeeze water out of at prototype had already been squeezed up the road at the "crystal palace"  We were only the last pump in series for the whole pipeline. We would get broke students that hadn't passed a single test or ack board with the simple comment, "Should do well at Prototype".  Out of all the broke ones we got, I saw ONE SINGLE SAILOR that I felt was an asset to the fleet even though he probably should have not made it to Prototype.  This was out of hundreds.  So prototype can't take all the blame for shipping out broke nukes.  We did the best with what we got from NPS.  Funny thing is I was always taught that you increase flowrate by having pumps in parrallel instead of series...
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Offline deltarho

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #131 on: Jun 24, 2008, 07:29 »
If the idiot checker is in fact an idiot (I've met a few in my very few years in the greatest Navy ever) ...  When that stuff happens, throw up your hands and expect to be at work for a long, long time.
Jason

Junior Officer on Pre-Watch tour during Complex Overhaul Startup Testing.

JO:  "Aren't those scram breakers supposed to be open?"

Secondary Control Watch (SCW): "Yeah, right."

Kuthunk, Kuthunk (Before the SCW could utter a word elsewise)

EOOW over 2MC:  "Reactor Scram, Reactor Scram -- Case II"
The above has nothing to do with any real  or imagined person(s).  Moreover, any referenced biped(s) simulating real or imagined persons--with a pulse or not--is coincidental, as far as you know.

JustinHEMI05

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #132 on: Jun 24, 2008, 07:32 »
Junior Officer on Pre-Watch tour during Complex Overhaul Startup Testing.

JO:  "Aren't those scram breakers supposed to be open?"

Secondary Control Watch (SCW): "Yeah, right."

Kuthunk, Kuthunk (Before the SCW could utter a word elsewise)

EOOW over 2MC:  "Reactor Scram, Reactor Scram -- Case II"


I guess the SCW should have explained what was going on instead of being a smart a** douche bag.

Justin

whitmoyer

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #133 on: Jun 24, 2008, 11:02 »

I am all about staying in if I can continue to be effective, but I would really like to maintain my youthful optimism and idealism in the process.  Can an enlisted guy actually contribute to command climate beyond the "deckplate level"? (God, I hate buzzwords)

The fact that you're referred to as being on the same level as the floor says a lot about what that organization thinks about you...and how much influence you can really have. 

Seriously - it's not just a cute buzzword.  I thought it was one of the most insulting terms ever used to refer to enlisted personnel. 

That's not to say you can't help make local changes - constructive feedback combined with the right command climate can get things done.  But will you change your lot in life as an enlisted nuke - no, it's completely out of your hands and always will be. 

And to relate this to the original topic - I think that the enlisted/officer divide is what is fundamentally flawed with the NNPP.  There's no fixing that in the foreseeable future. 


JustinHEMI05

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #134 on: Jun 25, 2008, 07:30 »
The fact that you're referred to as being on the same level as the floor says a lot about what that organization thinks about you...and how much influence you can really have. 

Seriously - it's not just a cute buzzword.  I thought it was one of the most insulting terms ever used to refer to enlisted personnel. 

That's not to say you can't help make local changes - constructive feedback combined with the right command climate can get things done.  But will you change your lot in life as an enlisted nuke - no, it's completely out of your hands and always will be. 

And to relate this to the original topic - I think that the enlisted/officer divide is what is fundamentally flawed with the NNPP.  There's no fixing that in the foreseeable future. 



Wow, don't come where I work then where you have "floor operators" and "floor supervisors." They don't even gussy up the name floor for ya. I don't think they care though since they will all pay off FICA, etc around the end of August.

Justin
« Last Edit: Jun 25, 2008, 07:30 by JustinHEMI »

whitmoyer

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #135 on: Jun 25, 2008, 08:16 »
Wow, don't come where I work then where you have "floor operators" and "floor supervisors." They don't even gussy up the name floor for ya. I don't think they care though since they will all pay off FICA, etc around the end of August.

Justin

That may be your title, but in the navy it was more than that - It was your ceiling. 

Sorry if I appeared too touchy about the wordage - I just hated what it implied more than the actual title.  I'd be more than happy to be titled 'floor operator' at my current place of employment! 

JustinHEMI05

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #136 on: Jun 25, 2008, 09:21 »
I guess it depends on your point of view. I never got the a feeling that it meant anything derogatory. Is there some reference that or something you heard that caused you to feel that way? I am just curious.

Justin

withroaj

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #137 on: Jun 30, 2008, 08:23 »
I heard some good news on this front.  The COMNAVSUBFOR VADM recently came to a humble little shipyard in New Hampshire/Maine and talked to the folks. He wants to fix retention in the nuke community, and has some good ideas that go beyond money to git-r-done. 

He's put some positive changes in motion that, as small and symbolic as they seem, are a big step in the right direction.  Training was on the list, and as we all know, spending several hours a week in a classroom watching recycled power points could be a real pain if you actually wanted to get your job done and go home.  I think he wants to get the 'requirements' back to just being the requirements.  You know, the ones you can find in written sources?  Let's all give him a round of applause for taking a huge job (SUBFOR Admiral) and doing a good thing with it.

Let's also hope that his influence spreads to the surface fleet since my submarine days are now officially over.  I'm headed to the USS George H. W. Bush (motto -- "Freedom at Work" -- what does that mean? )

Offline Preciousblue1965

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #138 on: Jun 30, 2008, 09:33 »
Well I am sure that we all agree that any "fix" would not be an overnight thing.  That being said I figure we should start from the beginning in order to implement any changes.  You wanted specific answers, well here are my two cents

1. Recruiting-Go back to requiring the NFQT to be taken, regardless of ASVAB scores.  Ensure that those going into the program have an done well in advanced classes like physics, math, and other core classes. 
2.  Boot camp-Really, really pay attention to the people that you are putting into perspective rates.  Immaturity is not a quality you want to see in an SRO that is stading watch all by hisself at 0300.
3. A school/NPS-Bring back the mentality of being a filter, not a pump.  Remove civilians from the decision making process of whether a student is retainable or not(they don't have to work with the broke ones on a real ship, so they get no input as to whether we have to).  Make a clean cut policy for academic failures.  Two subject(math, BM, MERO, Heat Transfer, Etc) failure, you get an Academic board.  You MUST pass the academic board with at least a 2.8 to continue.  If you pass the ac board and you fail another subject, GOODBYE.  You must also pass your Comp exam to continue.  You get one retake. Furthermore, if you are sent to mast more than once, GOODBYE. 
4.  Prototype-No longer accept sailors that did not legitimately pass NNPTC(see above).  Switch from the nanny-style hand holding where qualifications are concerned, and adopt a personal resposibility with encouragement style qualification program.  If you are Dinq it is your fault, we will help you, but we are NOT going to FORCE the staff to spend extra time here because you want to slack off.  Realize that there are those who do NOT need to spend 12 hours days at Prototype, therefore those that are exceptional should be placed on Staff hours, not the current reduced hours program.  No more, no less.  Furthermore, delete approx 1/3 of the signature in the book that are overly redundant or serve no useful purpose.  Do you really need to demonstrate that you know what to do for a scram to 9 different watchstanders, especially when the last one is Integrated and you are going to go over all the information in one checkout as you did in the other 8. 
5.Fleet/Shore Duty-there are way too many things to put into this column.  Some of the bigger ones are, maximize liberty to greatest extent possible and follow through with that policy.  Minimize the "hurry up and wait" and "just in case something happens" mentality.  Realize that there are some smart nukes out there, let them operate the plant because they know how it works, Don't crucify them if they don't have the book open every single time for minor routine operations.  Prototype Staff Tours really suck, realize this and ensure that those that go that route are adequately compensated, perhaps with a split tour at NNPTC afterwards.  Yes throw more money at us, but not just for re-upping, throw a little more into the "pro pay" pot.  Realize that just because one guy is a complete screw-up that this does not require numerous hours of additional training for EVERYONE else.  Also, NRRO is not God, therefore we should not treat them as such.  They are there to assist us, not hamper us in our activities.  Along with that, procedures are not fool proof, they are often ambigious enough to be left up to interpretation by numerous individuals.  These individuals change, thus does the interpretations.  Stop this, figure out what it is you want to do, and stick to it for good unless a very good reason causes you to re-evaluate your interpretation. 
6. Other-About 2 times a year, allow subordinates to evaluate their bosses to those above.  This would help identify those who are poor leaders, but get results due to rank and regulations.  Give credit where credit is due.  Reward those who work hard, but not with more work.  Do not reward those who slack off or are incompetant with easy jobs or good deals. 

Well I hope that this meets some of the requirements of my fellow nukes.  If you agree/disagree with any of it, let it flow. 
"No good deal goes unpunished"

"Explain using obscene hand jestures the concept of pump laws"

I have found the cure for LIBERALISM, it is a good steady dose of REALITY!

withroaj

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #139 on: Jun 30, 2008, 10:05 »
I agree and I disagree. 

I have to admit that I never thought about raising pro-pay.  That could make it feel better when a coner says "Suck it up, nuke.  You get pro pay."  Make pro pay more than 5 bucks a day for junior people and 15 bucks a day for senior people (if you do the math, that's less hourly pay than some of our non-nuke brethren, and that doesn't even take into account their second job at Home Depot.)

As far as the academic standards in the pipeline go, I don't really know that is the fix.  You know some super smart, top-of-the-class dirt bags; and you know some 2.5 stay alive work horses.  Some times intelligence is the enlisted nuke's Achilles heel.  It can cause good guys to get out because they think they won't work for idiots on the other side.  I think the guy who had to bust his butt to get through the pipeline tends to make better use of his Navy time than the guy who sailed through with minimal effort.  Your super-smart guy thinks he's senior and too good for ERLL, AEA, ERF or RT by the time he has six months on board, and takes it as an insult if he isn't ERS, EO or RO by his fifth underway.  Your dumb guy will probably wipe up oil every log set even after standing ERLL for two years, and maybe even enjoy cleaning the purifier bowl.

I think that might lead me to another potential fix in the program, but I have no idea how to implement it.  Our focus right now is way to heavily based on Accelerating our Lives.  While the EDOM/EDM say CPO's and poo-hot first classes should qualify and stand EWS/EDPO, every first class is in quals and "Should be qualified by now."  We even see second classes with one or two years on board in supervisory quals.  While I think that can be a good thing, it leads to a culture of guys with a year or two on board thinking they're "senior."  What other line of work allows a person with so little real experience to consider themself an old salt?  In a system where we all strive to take a leadership position, we don't really leave any experienced people in the so-called junior positions.  If we do, we consider them to be stupid or lazy.  I have to admit that current lack of first-term retention doesn't really allow us any 'reserve experience' to build from.  With one or two sea returnee first classes on any given sub, we have the nubs teaching the nubs, while the truly senior people (the sea-returnees) focused on paperwork.

Buck o' Five.

Offline HydroDave63

Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #140 on: Jun 30, 2008, 04:15 »
(motto -- "Freedom at Work" -- what does that mean? )

Arbeit Macht Frei ? ;)

Offline Preciousblue1965

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #141 on: Jul 01, 2008, 07:01 »
The only reason I even suggested upping the propay amount was to serve as a small prevention measure.  If you think about it like this, it makes sense.

If you up the propay amount, the nuke gets more money up front, every month.  This in turn makes him(hopefully) just a little less bitter every month.  That in turn means that he will be significantly less bitter after XXX years when it is time to re-up.  Therefore he is more likely to re-up.

Furthermore, for those lost souls that truly TRULY despise the entire process, here is a thought.  IF they want to get out early, let them.  Cut their time down to four years, but make it under the following circumstances.

1. They continue to perform their nuke duties adequatley(quals, tests, etc).
2. They forfeit their propay.  Must be at least 2 years worth in order to get out. (yes this would push a few people over their 4 year mark, but hey they are still getting out early.)
3. They must not have any UCMJ violations
4. They must pay back any bonuses that they received.  If they are unable to supply sufficient capital, the Navy will "loan" them the buy out money at current interests rates to be paid back in NLT 4 years.

I am sure there are other things people could add to this, but it is a start.  The only reason I advocate this is to act as a "bitterness relief valve".  It allows those who truly want to get the hell out to do it two years early, but it is just strong enough to make people think twice before jumping ship. 
"No good deal goes unpunished"

"Explain using obscene hand jestures the concept of pump laws"

I have found the cure for LIBERALISM, it is a good steady dose of REALITY!

JustinHEMI05

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #142 on: Jul 01, 2008, 11:10 »
Naw, that is never going to happen.

Realistically, about the only things that will happen are a bump in pro pay and of course bonuses.

The CMC of NPTU Ballston Spa had some ideas that I thought were really good, as far as bonuses go.

He suggested having progressive bonuses for qualification, similar to what the commercial world does. For example, he said that when you qualified senior in rate, you would get a 2000 dollar bonus. When you qualified EWS, you would get a 5000 dollar bonus. If you qualified EOOW as an enlisted, you would get a 10000 dollar bonus. He then said that based on your quals, you would get a yearly bonus on top of that such as 2500 for senior in rate and 5000 for EWS on up. He also suggested a progressive pro pay based on quals. The more you qualify, the more your pro pay. Besides giving a sailor something to work for (money), it would also make the quals much more competitive and really the best people would be qualifying the advance stuff. He and I both agreed that not every first class should be qualifying EWS. Some should stay in ERLL. :)

So although I disliked most of what that guy stood for, I was really surprised when he told me these ideas at my exit interview. I was impressed and thought they were good ideas. He said he had a couple of Masters helping him work out the details and come up with a proposal to the Navy and Congress. I guess we will wait and see. Personally, I don't foresee anything like this ever being approved. Again, outside of MAYBE upping pro pay and continuing to up the bonuses, I don't think much of anything is ever going to change.

Again though, money isn't the problem. You suggested "a little less bitter," but for me anyway, it didn't work that way. Like my former CMC said, "How can someone look at 100K and say 'no thanks?'" You can't fix suck with money. If they did all of these great things, without fixing the suck, it wouldn't matter in the long run. It would be a start and a temporary fix, but in the end... the people still have to change. If this kind of monetary stuff happened without addressing the suck, in 20 more years, another group of people would be debating the perils of the NNPP on nukeworker.com.

It simply is not about the money.

Justin
« Last Edit: Jul 01, 2008, 11:18 by JustinHEMI »

Offline Preciousblue1965

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #143 on: Jul 01, 2008, 03:09 »
Unfortunately I have to agree with the "money won't fix the suck" part.  Those sound like some interesting ideas but it could lead to a lot of problems when guys start trying to get those senior qual bonuses.  Playing devil's advocate, who is to say that there wouldn't be some backstabbing to jump the line in quals to get the bonus, or even guys paying kickbacks to get into quals.  I know that that should never happen, but stuff like that could happen.  Furthermore, I am sure you would have guys complain that guys at Prototype were getting bonuses when guys at Recruiting duty and NNPTC weren't(then again maybe that ain't such a bad idea). 

Either way, I doubt it would ever get implemented.  Navy is so darn set in its ways that it would litterly take an act of congress to get them to change.
"No good deal goes unpunished"

"Explain using obscene hand jestures the concept of pump laws"

I have found the cure for LIBERALISM, it is a good steady dose of REALITY!

Offline 93-383

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #144 on: Jul 01, 2008, 03:53 »
Unfortunately I have to agree with the "money won't fix the suck" part.  Those sound like some interesting ideas but it could lead to a lot of problems when guys start trying to get those senior qual bonuses.  Playing devil's advocate, who is to say that there wouldn't be some backstabbing to jump the line in quals to get the bonus, or even guys paying kickbacks to get into quals.  I know that that should never happen, but stuff like that could happen.  Furthermore, I am sure you would have guys complain that guys at Prototype were getting bonuses when guys at Recruiting duty and NNPTC weren't(then again maybe that ain't such a bad idea). 

Either way, I doubt it would ever get implemented.  Navy is so darn set in its ways that it would litterly take an act of congress to get them to change.

At the rate that new personnel where qualifying (very slowly two years to SIR was rare) when I left the ship I think a little backstabbing and zealous imitative to qualify would be a good thing.

Offline Preciousblue1965

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #145 on: Jul 01, 2008, 04:16 »
Well you are also going to have a lot of guys/gals getting PO'd when they don't get picked to qual EWS/EOOW, whether they deserve to qual or not.  They are going to see it as a chance to get a small chunk of change that is not being given to them.  Especially if you got a Poop-hot runner that is on the ship half the time as another person, and the hot runner gets put into quals before the other guy, even if he does deserve it.  This happens now, but it would really get worse if there was cold hard cash involved.  Right now it is the notion that EWS is good if you want to make CPO and be a lifer.  Throw some money into, everyone will want it.
"No good deal goes unpunished"

"Explain using obscene hand jestures the concept of pump laws"

I have found the cure for LIBERALISM, it is a good steady dose of REALITY!

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #146 on: Jul 05, 2008, 07:45 »
Justin =>

Not as in depth as you are describing, but there is some sort of return for getting watch sup -> supervisory NEC  => 300$ pay raise every month.

I think a bonus WOULD provide more incentive, but not much though. People will be just as lazy.

Precious blue ->
 I dont believe the people would object as much as you think. Recruiters can get "auto chief-ed" if they recruit enough people. They also get bonuses for getting enough people in.  People at NNPTC are also put in charge of more people, AND as a first class, would be filling a cheif billet -> chief faster.

withroaj

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #147 on: Jul 05, 2008, 08:14 »
I really don't want to sound too negative but 300 bucks a month is 10 a day. Not the strongest way to say 'go forth and conquer.'

Offline HydroDave63

Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #148 on: Jul 05, 2008, 08:28 »
I really don't want to sound too negative but 300 bucks a month is 10 a day. Not the strongest way to say 'go forth and conquer.'

300 a month is roughly 12.5% of E-5 over 6 base pay. Plus you have huge SRBs and a nice GI Bill not available just a few years ago. Beats a swift kick...

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #149 on: Jul 05, 2008, 08:52 »
I really don't want to sound too negative but 300 bucks a month is 10 a day. Not the strongest way to say 'go forth and conquer.'

300 a month is a 20,000 dollar car payment too :D

 


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