How would you fix the NNPP

[NukeLDO]

2)  You must be older than dirt .. (hehehehehehehe) .. NukeLDO because I didn't get one of those cards.  And, I'm getting old.  Or, so says my brothers little girls.  I think the word they used was dinosaur ... 

Not THAT old.  P-type in '88.
But, back to what you were talking about.   33 nukes in my boot camp company.  6 made it through power school.  3 of us made it through p-type.  2 of us still on active duty today.  It ain't like it used to be.

[War Eagle]

Now that I've given my .02 cents worth on the subject of ... let me summarize:
1)  A higher failure rate is necessary and has been the norm before without harm to the program.
2)  Costs will not go up.
3)  The fleet (of non-nukes) benefits from the higher failure rate.
4)  We eliminate the drift wood that contributes to the overall bad attitude and performance on the program in the fleet.

Thanks for reading.

Amen, HoneyComb! I couldn't agree more.

[NukeLDO]

Standby...news slowly breaking now....submarine business.
Somebody mentioned something about a roost in one of these posts.

[JustinHEMI05]

Seems to me that we'd have to downsize the nuclear fleet in order to achieve the attrition rate you're looking for.  I'm all about scaling back U.S. military operations to the Western Hemisphere ( IMO our global military presence is financially unsustainable -- but that's a topic for another section), but that doesn't seem to be on anybody's agenda any time soon. 

I agree with what Jason already stated well, that going back to the "old days" would not hurt the program as far as numbers go. As far as I can tell, there isn't a shortage of new nuke recruits. Just look around this board and I would submit that there are an equal number of recruits sitting in DEP for up to a year or more as there are active duty nukes. If we went back to the "old way," these people wouldn't be sitting around waiting to ship like that anymore. It would be more like when I joined. I went in and said "I want to be a nuke" and less than one month later, it was so.

Justin

[NukeLDO]

Now on CNN.

[JustinHEMI05]

Wow. I remember when the Hartford ran aground in LaMaddelana in 2003.

Justin

[Preciousblue1965]

I was just a couple of years behind ya'.  I'm glad you're still going strong.  Keep up the good work.  And, no it isn't like it used to be.  Anywhere sadly.

We've mama proofed everything since we grew up!  We put warning labels on everything now.  We sue anyone that offends us or has nothing to do with our own faults.  We don't weed out the weak anymore.  They in turn think they are smart and deserve to be heard.

Example:  When you and I were growing up we didn't wear helmets for bicycles.  We fixed our own flat tires.  If we screwed something up we didn't think about suing someone first.  (Etc. I have an entire page of this stuff but I'll not add anymore.)

After taking a trip down memory lane I think you and I really are dinosaurs.  Just like the other Navy Nukes that post here.  And, that is a sad moment we are living right now.

Because we know what would solve this problem.  And, we are forced to watch it destroyed from within.  Like most good institutions.

Jason

HoneyComb,

When I get down about how the world is dumbing itself down and catering to the least common denominator, I just think to myself how much better I will look by comparison.  While I fully agree that we have dumb down the program, the school, and society in general in some aspects, I also feel that it will lead to the truly intelligent ones being able to have more influence. 

Of course it doesn't help that by coddling more people that we are in fact creating a bigger slice of the population that are unable to think for themselves and must rely on others, or worse the government, for their every need.  Thus we will eventually breed out independence and become nothing more than sheep to be kept safe from everything, told what to do and when to do it, and have taken every cent from our pocketbooks in order to "spread the wealth around". 

Just remember that there are those of us "new generation" that doesn't want everything handed to us, wants to earn the right to be called a nuclear operator, and feels a deep sadness to see the program that has lead so many of us to bright futures become tarnished in such a way that saying that you are an ex-navy nuke is no better than saying you got a degree from the University of Phoenix.

[NukeLDO]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/03/20/navy.vessels.collide/index.html

The USS Hartford and the USS New Orleans collide.

Kudos to our ship designers and those who work on them.  Not too many things this size that ply the oceans you can roll over to almost 90 degrees from vertical and still keep going.  The ability to continue on her own power is a testament that all the bolts were where they were supposed to be, the welds are good, and the shock design criteria are sound.  A shame to see another skipper's career ruined though.

[Gamecock]

Kudos to our ship designers and those who work on them.  Not too many things this size that ply the oceans you can roll over to almost 90 degrees from vertical and still keep going.  The ability to continue on her own power is a testament that all the bolts were where they were supposed to be, the welds are good, and the shock design criteria are sound.  A shame to see another skipper's career ruined though.

Some good commentary here..
http://bubbleheads.blogspot.com/2009/03/uss-hartford-collides-with-us-amphib.html#c1928420894467772635

[NukeLDO]

Thanks Rocky.  Had forgot about that site.  Pics are pretty good.  Without looking at it personally, I'd say there will be dry dock somewhere tied up for 9-10 months.

[NukeLDO]

But its true!!!
And for those who care:

Thanks Rocky.  Had forgot about that site.  Pics are pretty good.  Without looking at it personally, I'd say there will be dry dock somewhere tied up for 9-10 months.

She'll be in dry-dock at EB in Groton.  Estimates are about 13 months to repair.  Complete removal and rebuild of the sail, and as you can imagine, a lot of NDT to determine if she will be a LID boat or free to conduct operations to test depth.  So far, EB is doing the work, but I'm sure there will be some contract and borrowed labor from other places once she gets going on the repairs.

[xforcehunter]

I don't know why, but that statement just made me chuckle for at least fifteen seconds,...

It reminds me of the "Binder Tracking" Binder.

[deltarho]

I should have added in my Aviation example that when the standards are lowered and then someone is in risk of failing (remember no one can fail) that the Instructor is in the hot seat and not the student.

It seems that this is the current problem in the navy nuke program.  The instructors are forced to pass or get the student to a proficient state.  So what happens when they get to the fleet and they don't have someone to hold their hand?  Failure for the first time.  The NUB then feels betrayed.  They now realize they had been propped up and can't stand on their own.

When I was going through it was your fault you didn't pass or succeed.  Not the instructors.  Now it is the other way around.  To the students detriment.

I thought this might interest some.

As an instructor at NFAS (NUCFLDASCHOL), I had a student beg me to put him on mandatory Saturday morning make up for physics (mind you, this is the old prephysics taught at a 4-week pace). I told him that if he knew that he needed to put the time in, then do so. I wasn't going to hold his hand.  He later failed the first exam--the only one in the class to get less than an 83%==> which still reflected negatively on ME!  So, not only did I put him on mandatory Saturday mornings for the next two Saturdays, but I gave him every extra packet (and made up a few of my own) that should have taken three years to finish.  He scored a 94% on the final and passed overall.

I was a "hero." I couldn't help wonder who would do the hand holding out in the fleet.

[NukeLDO]

The new number is 3.  Two in Maneuvering, one roving the spaces.  Significant remote operatioin, including throttle control from up forward.

[JustinHEMI05]

Speaking of fixing the NNPP, does the NNPP still force people to pretend that the IDE isn't a simulator?

-The answer to that question will guide the rest of my response.

[Gamecock]

Speaking of fixing the NNPP, does the NNPP still force people to pretend that the IDE isn't a simulator?

-The answer to that question will guide the rest of my response.

No...with caveats.

[Neutron_Herder]

Speaking of fixing the NNPP, does the NNPP still force people to pretend that the IDE isn't a simulator?

-The answer to that question will guide the rest of my response.

There's two flavors of simulators out there for the Navy now.  The traditional IDE that everyone knows and loves, and now we have the Fleet IDE also.  Biggest difference between them is the level of fidelity of the control room to the actual plant.  The IDEs in the pipeline are going to have a higher level of fidelity because we are doing the initial training for the operators, and want it to be right on.

The Fleet IDEs don't have as high of a fidelity level...  Makes them a little cheaper and esier to maintain.  The thought is that since they're used to train operators that are already qualified they can make some compromises.  It's not real evident from eye level though.  If you're looking at the panels it's like being in the control room on the boat. 

I beleive the IDEs in the pipeline are still controlled just like they are the plant and not a simulator.  The Fleet IDEs are a little less restrictive, as it's expected that the operators are going to mess up sometimes.  It gives us a little more flexibility in the training we can do with the waterfront, since we don't have to critique everything that goes wrong.  We can run a scenario, have them mess it up, talk about what was good and bad, and then run it on them again and again until they get it right.

We still are never supposed to say "simulator" though...

[JustinHEMI05]

Hmmm ok. Well, I was just comparing my experience in the simulator in license training to my time in the IDE as a staff instructor at prototype. I really think the IDE would be much more useful if during a casualty drill, you could freeze the IDE and discuss with the students what is going on, give advice and coaching, and then continue. Maybe even re-run the drill to make sure it sinks in (but the students weren't allowed to see the IDE in freeze). That has been extremely helpful to me in my quest to obtain an SRO license. I remember many drills we have run on students where at the end, they were no better off because they really didn't understand the dynamics of the situation and why a particular action was applicable at that time. Sure, that is what people will say the post watch discussion is for, but it just isn't the same as doing it "in the moment." It is just my opinion that if the IDE was used more like a simulator, the training might be more beneficial. Just a thought.

Justin

[Preciousblue1965]

NO doubt! Here is the speech they need to hear when they get to Power School:

Hardest part of watching that is that I also know that the Drill Instructor in this video is also the same person that does the voice of Mr. Krabs on Spongebob Squarepants(I have a 2 year old that is crazy over Spongebob, which means I have to watch repeatedly).

[Preciousblue1965]

Hmmm ok. Well, I was just comparing my experience in the simulator in license training to my time in the IDE as a staff instructor at prototype. I really think the IDE would be much more useful if during a casualty drill, you could freeze the IDE and discuss with the students what is going on, give advice and coaching, and then continue. Maybe even re-run the drill to make sure it sinks in (but the students weren't allowed to see the IDE in freeze). That has been extremely helpful to me in my quest to obtain an SRO license. I remember many drills we have run on students where at the end, they were no better off because they really didn't understand the dynamics of the situation and why a particular action was applicable at that time. Sure, that is what people will say the post watch discussion is for, but it just isn't the same as doing it "in the moment." It is just my opinion that if the IDE was used more like a simulator, the training might be more beneficial. Just a thought.

Justin

Justin, I definitely agree with your assesment.  I know during Staff Training in which we would see certain casualties in the IDE such as Leaks and Ruptures, we would freeze it in the middle, point out this and that, let it continue, freeze and point, then reset and do it all over again in real time, etc.  It was a great tool for us. 

Of course nothing beats a 4QT watchset in the IDE.....

[Neutron_Herder]

Hmmm ok. Well, I was just comparing my experience in the simulator in license training to my time in the IDE as a staff instructor at prototype. I really think the IDE would be much more useful if during a casualty drill, you could freeze the IDE and discuss with the students what is going on, give advice and coaching, and then continue. Maybe even re-run the drill to make sure it sinks in (but the students weren't allowed to see the IDE in freeze). That has been extremely helpful to me in my quest to obtain an SRO license. I remember many drills we have run on students where at the end, they were no better off because they really didn't understand the dynamics of the situation and why a particular action was applicable at that time. Sure, that is what people will say the post watch discussion is for, but it just isn't the same as doing it "in the moment." It is just my opinion that if the IDE was used more like a simulator, the training might be more beneficial. Just a thought.

Justin

I completely agree!  I think it would help the students a lot more to do that, but I don't think they trust them enough to still have the respect they need for the IDE if they get to see it in freeze.

At least the Fleet IDEs are going in the right direction.  Lots of freezes with discussion, and even some off watch stuff so they can see what happens to the plant with no operator action for ruptures and such.

I don't think the IDEs in the pipeline will ever stop being the way they are, but at least we're able to train the fleet operators a little better.  We actually are allowing these guys to mess up and have things happen.  I think they learn a lot more by actually having the alarms go off instead of having a drill team member intervene to stop it. 

[JustinHEMI05]

It pleases me to hear that the fleet IDEs are being used that way. I just wish the NNPP could grant the students more credit when it comes to what is the IDE and what it is not. In other words, I don't think the students are stupid enough to; a) believe that they are in anything other than a simulator whether you call it a simulator or not and b) think that the plant can be placed in freeze when something goes wrong.

[Neutron Whisperer]

Tradition

Someday the submarine force will find a leader who will have the insight to recognize the wisdom of returning a lot of the lighthearted tradition and give back some of the little things that meant so much to the old tattered foul weather jacket and raggedy dungaree force.

A good beginning would be to return the tradition of never pinning Dolphins on a dry shirt.  It was a good tradition.  Oh yes, I know the arguments against the tradition: safety, unnecessary risk.  In the world of grown men, adult, red-blooded bluejackets that rationale is pure bullshit.  The foundation of all military service is risk—the acceptance of risk in selfless service to one’s nation.  Tossing a lad into the ocean he lives in, involves minimal risk.  Hell, strap a lifejacket on the lad.  The honor of this baptismal ritual and the effect it had on a man’s personal pride and his entry to ship’s company and the fellowship of proven submariners far outweighs the risk.

If you want boatsailors to reenlist—to remain for career service—you must give them back the cocky pride that once was ingrained in the men who wore cloth Dolphins just above the cuff of their right sleeve.

That can be done.  It would take one hell of a force commander but it could be done.  First, deemphasize all the personal benefits of specialized training as enticements to retain boatsailors and instead emphasize the brotherhood of undersea service.  Riding heavy steel under the sea is the common denominator.  Being taken in to that brotherhood used to be all that mattered.  Wearing “twin fish” over your pocket meant that you measured up.  They marked you as a man apart—an accepted part of a very elite Naval Force.  They made you special.  In the old days before the wholesale proliferation of all the meaningless bullshit pocket hardware that the Department of Defense uses as bribes to make kids appear to be warriors—the golden calf icons of mediocrity that get handed out like Crackerjack prizes that mean nothing—the lads of today know in their hearts that they risked nothing, dared nothing, and sacrificed nothing for 90% of the meaningless chest jewelry they wear.  Quit treating men like children and handing out toy horsecrap.  All that the men of yesterday required was the privilege of serving in submarines.

There is something wrong with a military force where peacetime junior enlisted personnel wear more ribbons than a field grade officer who fought from North Africa to the Rhine.  It is a silent insult devised and perpetuated by small-bore command leadership to diminish the deeds of the giants of what Tom Brokaw has termed “The Greatest Generation.”  The desk bound public relation hacks have missed the mark.  By inflating awards and turning American decorations to ticket-punch milestones, everyone got shortchanged and brave men whose valor was rewarded with the decorations that have become travel souvenirs, got their pockets picked by the feather-merchants who piss on the tradition of hard men who rode armed ships in defense of what they believed in.

Let sailors go back to crushing wings in their goddamn white hats.  Who in God’s name came up with that toilet bowl roll white hat crap?  They ought to find them and hang all of them up by their heels.

I see ships returning from overseas deployment and the bluejackets lining the rail looking like the navy has parked bidets on everyone’s head.  Give the lads back that seagoing cocky crushed white hat; the one worn by men that threw heavy ordinance, went in harm’s way, and won wars.

The world once witnessed proud American sailors rolling down streets in foreign ports with white hats rakishly cocked over one eye with a set of characteristic port and starboard wings, his wallet clam-shelled in his waistband, and his pack of Luckies tucked in his sock.  The brass will puff themselves up like a mating barn owl and say, “The United States Naval uniform is not meant to be a vehicle for personal expression and individual affectation.”

Horseshit.

It used to be.  It set us apart from the chickenshit regulation of the other robot hand-puppet forces.  Sailors never took a pee by the numbers or spent a whole helluva lot of time memorizing Rockettes routines.  It was a force of extremely proud, highly competent individuals who took pride in buying tailor-mades and looking like a damn sailor was supposed to look.

You’ve gotta ease up on the lads today.  Give them back that means of self identification.  The poor bastards look like some toy manufacturer’s idea of what a sailor should look like or what some fashion designers imagined our navy should be wearing.  Navy leadership should remove anyone from influencing naval uniforms who never woke up in a stretched canvas rack six hundred plus nautical miles from the nearest deep water port.  Any idiot who never wore snug-nut skivvies and thirteen-button bell bottoms shouldn’t be allowed within ten miles of any decision on raghat uniforms.

Next, you must reconnect present-day submarine sailors with their heritage.  I have talked with a number of lads riding today’s technological marvels.  Most of them feel no connection with any non-uranium powered submersible.

We were fortunate.  We shared mess tables with the boatsailors who rode boats under Lockwood, skippered by the meateaters that destroyed more enemy ships than any American sub sailors before—or since.  They handed us our heritage: our birthright as submarine sailors.  In those days heritage was passed from the barnacle encrusted bastards to the next generation in sea stories told over coffee.

That can’t be done today.

The old “dead air and seven knot submerged” bastards are gone.  There are no more pre E-8 and E-9 red hashmark chiefs.  No guys who listened to fifty pound TNT packages detonate and bust up crockery, gauge faces, and hull packing.  They are history.  Rickover relegated the sonuvabitches to the pier dumpster for obsolete gear. (Note: This dynamic was in full swing when it was time for me to choose my first boat—I chose a diesel that had done five WWII patrols specifically for the purpose of taking the combat baton from these men.)  I know that the lads who make up the crews of those two-hundred yard, high-speed, automated undersea luxury liners look on smokeboat sailors as Neanderthal relics, but like it or not, they are downline links in the hundred year chain of submarine history.  Some submarine force commander is going to wake up one day and have the spiritual revelation required to give our submarine history to our fine sailors of today.  You say, “How in hell could that be accomplished?”

Simple really.  The History of the force exists in books, film, logs, records, diaries, and in the graying heads of the men who lived it—the men whose deeds gave us our proud legacy.  With minimal expenditure and use of limited manpower resources, the United States Submarine Force could prepare a series of underway lectures after chow, talks to be read by junior officers when the boat is underway.  A gentleman by the name of Theodore Roscoe wrote a book about submarine operations of World War II.  Simply reading from that book would connect today’s submariners to a very important part, the most important era in our history.  The book should be a part of every boat’s library the day she’s launched.  They spend zillions on subs, so a fifty to sixty dollar book that can be obtained from The U.S. Naval Institute in Annapolis shouldn’t knock a helluva dent in the developmental piggy bank, the return on investment would be measured in improved pride, elevated morale, and warrior spirit.

We diesel boat sailors had little or nothing in comparison to today’s crew comforts taken for granted by today’s submariners.  But we had deep pride in what we were a part of.  We didn’t share our boats with follow-on crews.  We were the boat.  We owned our hull number: every bolt, rivet, and packing gland, and every rust stain that ran down our superstructure.  Let us pray that some saltwater admiral turns up someday with a set of deep submergence cajones and sends the word to every boat in the force to the effect that all this Top Gun, Navy SEAL horseshit is about to take a backseat to the tough seagoing bastards that make up the community of undersea sharks.  He is going to elevate the visibility of the U.S. Submariner to the point where eight-year-old boys want to grow up and get on a bus to New London.  Hey, I’m just an old worn-out E-3.  Nobody in possession of his right mind would listen to an After Battery Rat.  But if I was SUBPAC or SUBLANT, I would (a) find out what Art Smith, Ron “Warshot” Smith, Roy Ator, and Capt. Slade Cutter eat for breakfast and serve it every morning and (b) I would buy Tommy Cox and Bobby Reeds’s “Brothers of The Dolphin” CD and play the damn thing every morning on every boat in the fleet until every lad knew the words by heart, and could sing it in any bar on the globe.  And I would play that song at 0600 every morning at New London at a decibel level over outdoor speakers that would knock every sonuvabitch at the Coast Guard Academy out of his rack.  Hell, I would have noise pollution guys from the EPA skydiving on the base with tiger nets.

We can change that.  All we have to do is do what raghats do best.  Look on each other as shipmates and take back our deeply meaningful history and tradition that link us in the tightest brotherhood ever created.  If you wore Dolphins “once upon a time,” then join the United States Submarine Veterans, Inc. and show your support for the lads riding steel ships under the sea in selfless sacrifice in defense of this fine nation.

They are our legacy.

Anyone else a member of Sub Vets?

[Marlin]

Anyone else a member of Sub Vets?

Yes, I am the Base Commander of Smoky Mountain Submarine Veterans, the chapter here in Knoxville.

[Neutron Whisperer]

Yes, I am the Base Commander of Smoky Mountain Submarine Veterans, the chapter here in Knoxville.

Your signature reminded me of what some guy on my boat would write on everyone's going away poster (picture of the boat):  "Don't sweat the petty officers and don't pet the sweaty officers."