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JustinHEMI05

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #475 on: Feb 14, 2010, 12:51 »
@cruzcampo

You haven't been around long, so allow me to help you. Once you get to know rlbinc's posting style, you come to recognize that the sentence you "went Gandhi" on was dripping with sarcasm.  8)

Justin
« Last Edit: Feb 14, 2010, 12:55 by JustinHEMI »

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #476 on: Feb 14, 2010, 12:53 »
@cruzcampo

You haven't been around long, so allow me to help you. Once you get to know rlbinc's posting style, you come to recognize that the sentence you "went Ghandi" on was dripping with sarcasm.  8)

Justin

And here I thought "going Gandhi" had something to do with marching 1000 miles in a diaper looking for a good curry stand  :P

cruzcampo

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #477 on: Feb 14, 2010, 02:47 »
@cruzcampo

You haven't been around long, so allow me to help you. Once you get to know rlbinc's posting style, you come to recognize that the sentence you "went Gandhi" on was dripping with sarcasm.  8)

Justin

Was going for more of a Lebowski type thing. 

Edit:  Yeah I did catch the sarcasm, pointed it out at the end there.  The statement about the Navy "not being broke" was just. . . too much awesome.
« Last Edit: Feb 14, 2010, 04:27 by cruzcampo »

DSO

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #478 on: Feb 14, 2010, 08:08 »

If the job is too hard for someone, then quit.  


Now "that" is hilarious my friend!!

JsonD13

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #479 on: Feb 14, 2010, 10:25 »
So how many WOULD quit given the chance, since that poster made it sound ever so easy.....


Jason

Offline crusemm

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #480 on: Feb 14, 2010, 10:30 »
Depending on the day of the week and where you are in the cycle, 10-90% :P
Seriously, Starting at the E-4 level, about six to eight months on the boat, 70%
E-5 over 5, 30-80%
E-6 LPO, 30%
E-7, about 50%
E-8 20%

these are just my guesses, but I think there about right, based on conversations I've had and what I've seen for Re-enlistments and self inflicted attrition.

But, when your drinking 50 cent beers in a bar in Thailand with girls throwing themselves at you 10%
When you are 14 months into a 9 month DMP 90%.

Just my Opinion
Authentic truth is never simple and that any version of truth handed down from on high---whether by presidents, prime ministers, or archbishops---is inherently suspect.-Andrew Bacevich

co60slr

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #481 on: Feb 15, 2010, 06:48 »
It is my belief that the person who wrote those posts does not actually work at NR.
Funny...sounds like she didn't make it to NR and dropped out of the Forum here.  Lots of gossip, rumors, etc in the aftermath...perhaps her integrity and moral fiber weren't quite up to the standards she portrayed.  Maybe she still wanders the hallowed hallways here and can give us an update.

Otherwise, a shame actually.  I would have SO liked to hear how her tirades in here worked out upon reporting to DC.  My bet is that it would have been entertaining.

Offline NukeLDO

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #482 on: Feb 15, 2010, 08:33 »
Funny...sounds like she didn't make it to NR and dropped out of the Forum here.  Lots of gossip, rumors, etc in the aftermath...perhaps her integrity and moral fiber weren't quite up to the standards she portrayed.  Maybe she still wanders the hallowed hallways here and can give us an update.

Otherwise, a shame actually.  I would have SO liked to hear how her tirades in here worked out upon reporting to DC.  My bet is that it would have been entertaining.

We all know how the LDO smoke signal system works....so lets just say someone followed up on the original post....and if this person was hired, it was totally unknown to the folks on the Washington Navy Yard.  Hard to imagine with such an impressive resume and sense of self-importance.  But yeah, I certainly would have paid the price of admission to the "fishbowl" office to see that conversation!
« Last Edit: Feb 15, 2010, 10:30 by NukeLDO »
Once in while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right

co60slr

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #483 on: Feb 15, 2010, 10:01 »
We all know how the LDO smoke signal system works....so lets just say someone followed up on the original post....and if this person was hired, it was totally unknown to the folks on the Washington Navy Yard.  Hard to imagine with such an impressive resume and sense of self-importance.  But yeah, it I certainly would have paid the price of admission to the "fishbowl" office to see that conversation!
Well, if a Nuke is hired and getting ready to report to his/her new command...and then suddenly disappears without a (public) clue, then my guess is...Security Check:  Fail.   

Just goes to prove...even someone with a PhD isn't smart enough to game the system.  Darwin always wins...eventually.  If she was a real nuclear professional, she'd log on at least one more time and share her lessons learned with these new college/HS grads posting their security questions in other threads.

jmj217

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #484 on: Feb 15, 2010, 12:39 »
Well, if a Nuke is hired and getting ready to report to his/her new command...and then suddenly disappears without a (public) clue, then my guess is...Security Check:  Fail.   

Just goes to prove...even someone with a PhD isn't smart enough to game the system.  Darwin always wins...eventually.  If she was a real nuclear professional, she'd log on at least one more time and share her lessons learned with these new college/HS grads posting their security questions in other threads.

Just read the whole thread - seems eerily similar to an incident that came up in NUPOC recruiting.

Tip of the Day for obtaining a security clearance:  Don't claim to have two PhDs unless you actually have at least one.

Eventually someone will verify every claim you make.  Oh...and don't embellish your resume.  People check up on that too.

BTW:  Since this is my first post - I'd like to thank everyone on this board for all of the great information.  I'd probably post more often but I don't know enough to have an informed opinion (about the commercial nuke industry, anyway) and any questions I have are usually answered by the search function.

I'm a submariner getting out this year and the information on this site has been a good tool for transitioning.  Thanks for the assist.

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #485 on: Feb 15, 2010, 01:36 »
Just read the whole thread - seems eerily similar to an incident that came up in NUPOC recruiting.

This ex-blueshirt is pleased and proud that we could provide a two-fer for the Homeland ;)

Fermi2

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #486 on: Feb 15, 2010, 03:11 »
Who was the casper everyone is talking about???

Offline NukeLDO

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #487 on: Feb 15, 2010, 04:07 »
See the 6 Sept 2008 post in this thread by cyclicrings.
Once in while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right

LaFeet

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #488 on: Apr 30, 2010, 11:54 »
Jeeze   and I thought things started going bad in the late 80's for the Navy Nuclear program after DeMars departed as DNNP.

Here's my take, let's get to the root of the problem,  all members of Congress should be on E-7 pay until the get re-elected.  Set budgets for personnel aides and expenses for them as well. 

All the extra money is to be used to pay back our debt......  and build a Nuke Battleshiop

Offline crusemm

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #489 on: Apr 30, 2010, 02:21 »
All the extra money is to be used to pay back our debt......  and build a Nuke Battleshiop

Hey, I'm with ya, but only as long as it shoots nuclear bullets.
Authentic truth is never simple and that any version of truth handed down from on high---whether by presidents, prime ministers, or archbishops---is inherently suspect.-Andrew Bacevich

MacGyver

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #490 on: Jul 19, 2010, 05:58 »
75 days since the last two posts and the one before it,.......

seems like the spot on reality of the above quote is sinking in on folks,.... ;)

You're right {i.e. rlbinc is right, sic}, BUT this is how I see the old school navy nukes versus the new:

Quote


Our form of therapy doesn't seem to work on the new navy nukes.  Though, I have to admit I feel better after the session.   :P :o ;)
« Last Edit: Apr 25, 2011, 07:41 by MacGyver »

Offline DDMurray

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #491 on: Jul 19, 2010, 07:07 »
The people who are "fixing" the NNPP are too busy to be on Nukeworker.
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Offline Gamecock

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #492 on: Jul 19, 2010, 08:32 »
The people who are "fixing" the NNPP are too busy to be on Nukeworker.

I still peruse these parts from time to time ;)
“If the thought police come... we will meet them at the door, respectfully, unflinchingly, willing to die... holding a copy of the sacred Scriptures in one hand and the US Constitution in the other."

co60slr

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #493 on: Jul 25, 2010, 03:01 »
I still peruse these parts from time to time ;)
Tie the annual nuclear bonus (and/or Pro Pay?) into ORSE grades and Fitreps.   If the command gets a MUC, Battle E, Eng E, etc...give everyone 125% of their "payout".  Sailor of the Year?  Bonus X 2.

BA on ORSE?  Eng Dept gets 50% of their forecasted amount. 
EP on Fitrep = 110% payout, MP = 100% payout, P = 90% payout.

Use money to change behavior, vice making the bonus automatic.  If nothing else, it'll better prepare Navy Nukes for the commercial nuclear world when they separate.  ;)




Offline Preciousblue1965

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #494 on: Jul 25, 2010, 07:30 »
I firmly believe that another thing that could help the Navy in general is to get inputs from subordinates about their supervisors.  LCPOs and O-gangers get evaluated based on the results they get, but with little to no consideration for how they got them.  In the eyes of the command, there is no difference between good leaders who inspire their guys to work hard and tyrants that get results through intimidation.  I not saying that their entire eval should be based on the inputs of subordinates because there is always going to be those guys that would bad mouth a their boss for actually making them work.  I have had both ends of the spectrums in my career, some even to the point of causing detriment to the division(I did everything in my power to avoid talking to him, even when duty demanded it).  It was a nightmare working for him, but because we got things done, he was rewarded and given promotion.   Also, knew of a MMCM that was completely incompetent as a nuke(one of those that was a better "Chief" than a nuke.  Reactor could be melting down but as long as everyone had creases in their uniform and a SAT haircut, life was peachy) but because he had been in for umpteen million years he was put in charge of the whole Department. 
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Offline Gamecock

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #495 on: Jul 25, 2010, 08:33 »
Tie the annual nuclear bonus (and/or Pro Pay?) into ORSE grades and Fitreps.   If the command gets a MUC, Battle E, Eng E, etc...give everyone 125% of their "payout".  Sailor of the Year?  Bonus X 2.

BA on ORSE?  Eng Dept gets 50% of their forecasted amount. 
EP on Fitrep = 110% payout, MP = 100% payout, P = 90% payout.

Use money to change behavior, vice making the bonus automatic.  If nothing else, it'll better prepare Navy Nukes for the commercial nuclear world when they separate.  ;)





Inherently bad idea to tie financial incentive to inspections, and ranking boards IMHO.

“If the thought police come... we will meet them at the door, respectfully, unflinchingly, willing to die... holding a copy of the sacred Scriptures in one hand and the US Constitution in the other."

Offline deltarho

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #496 on: Jul 25, 2010, 11:13 »
Now, imagine the notion of a bunch of surly second classes being told that if they mess up the next ORSE not only will they get no bonus, but they may very well get fired right out of the Navy and not be able to deploy on that next run to the Arabian Sea,.....

I bet the MSC would be tickled pink!  in your scenario, he wouldn't ever run out of peanut butter; there's always that silver nitrate lining.
The above has nothing to do with any real  or imagined person(s).  Moreover, any referenced biped(s) simulating real or imagined persons--with a pulse or not--is coincidental, as far as you know.

Offline DDMurray

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #497 on: Jul 26, 2010, 06:57 »
What drives people out?  It sucks a lot of the time.  So to fix the NNPP we need to take the "suck" out of it.  So what sucks? and what, if anything, can be done about the things that suck?  A little blamestorming:

Manning - get more people on the boats (SSNs especially).  Make it so that as part of the regular rotation is that you get left behind from time to time.

Advancement/Fitreps - Get rid of zero defects.  Nobody should be EP unless they are SIR qualified.  NO PO1 should be EP unless he is qualified EWS. 
- Let the CO decide if someone's physical condition affects their job.  If a CO can look at you and say, "Sorry for this adverse fitrep, I would have never guessed you were out of standards, and I wish I had 10 more like you."  Then that system is broken.
- Any CO/CMC that says everyone here is the best so we assume everybody is an expert at their primary duty so we must rank you based on collateral duties doesn't deserve to hold their position.  Get your senior leaders off the a$$es and into the classrooms/on the deckplates/in the ERs and actually observe the people whose careers you are holding in the palm of your hand.  Make the fitrep forms reflect this - 90% primary duty, 10% collateral duty. 

Instead of fixing the NNPP - let's take "the suck" out of it.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
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Offline Marlin

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #498 on: Jul 26, 2010, 07:34 »
   Just a little perspective from an "Old Goat". On the Getting in threads I hear about the long waits to get in and on this one I hear about about NNPP being a pump not a filter. Maybe staffing needs to be more of a pump to allow NNPP to be more of a filter. I know that Navy is much leaner than it was back when we made the reactor vessels out of oak and teak, but a little deliberate over staffing on the front end did seem to work.
« Last Edit: Jul 26, 2010, 10:21 by Marlin »

Offline Preciousblue1965

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #499 on: Jul 26, 2010, 09:03 »
While I am sure that the following has been covered at lengths, probably in this thread(all 18 pages of it), perhaps a little rehash is in order.  There are somethings that we CAN change and there are some that we CANNOT due to the nature of the business. Allow me to illustrate.

Deployments:  Not much we can do there, since they are subject to the whims of other world leaders wild hairs our appropriate response to such wild hairs.

Pay:  It will never be enough, but maybe throw some more into the mix, and not in the form of re-up bonuses.  Higher propay, maybe even performance bonuses for those guy that truly go above and beyond. 

Workload:  Of course increased manning will help, but that is only one part of the equation.  Stop the mentality of "just in case".  Too often, there would be nothing critical to be done, yet EVERYONE is sitting around because the LCPO or DIVO was worried something might come up.  If something really needs to be done, it will get done with no complaining, but keeping 20 guys hanging around just to paint the bulkhead for the 10th time that month when there was nothing wrong with it is going to cause a LOT of resentment.  This is minimized in the civilian world by the fact that you have to pay overtime and stay in budget.  The Navy needs to take on this mentality, even if it can't implement the pay side of it.

The BS factor:  Understand that sometimes things happen.  A person will screw up and things will break or cause a transient.  STOP TRYING TO FIX THE WHOLE for one person's mistake.  Too many times, one person will do something wrong that was just plain stupid, a brain fart if you will, and next thing you know, everyone is sitting through 4 hours of extra "training" to remind people not to do that same stupid thing.  I understand if it is a rare evolution that gets screwed up, but just because someone signs the wrong part of a qual book or screws up a valve lineup doesn't mean everyone is messed up. 

The BS Factor Part 2:  Let your people do what they know how to do.  I understand procedural compliance is a cornerstone of the program, but don't go overboard with it.  You don't need to reference the procedure EVERYTIME to do something you have done 100s of times before and only involve 3 or 4 valves.  Also don't enforce rules that aren't rules.  I dont' know how many times there were hits on drills that started out "contrary to good engineering practices....".  So me the Engineering Practices manual, otherwise it shouldn't be a hit.  The Circle X method is a good tool, but it isn't something that is required, so don't enforce it like it is. 

Testing and LOK:  CTEs and other exams are grossly out of step with what should be expected.  Everyone wants to see that nice looking bell curve, so numbers get fudged to fit it.  NUBs fail and Senior guys get the highest score, with so many people getting a certain score range in between.  If too many pass, the test was too easy.  If too many fail, the training wasn't sufficient.  A person should not have to memorize word for word a procedure, the supplementary information for why each step was taken, expected indications, and all associated communications for an evolution to get full credit on a question.  They should also not have to "assume" 20 different items, write down those assumptions(some that are just rediculous such as assuming 3 ft is approx 1 meter) just to get half credit for a question.  When you put out tests like this, it only encourages the use of "gouge sheets" and cheating such as on the IKE and other places.  ESPECIALLY when you cause a loss of liberty or extra work for failures. Tests should be challenging, but not take the whole set of books just to get right.  If I was writing a test, I would give a sample test to all my people, tell them to not study for it, and see where the level of knowledge is for the group, then write it just a tad bit harder for the real one. Of course there is probably flaws to this method.

Make the Pipeline mean something again: Make sure that people EARN that NEC and not just survive the pipeline.  Right now academic attrition is easily less than 5% if it is even 2%.  Sorry, but that is unacceptable.  What is the point of having more extra bodies on the ship if you can't trust them to stand watch on their own.  Not only are they taking up a billet spot, but you usually have to assign someone to sit in their back pocket so you just burned up to billets worth of manning for one person.  Also, if a person is grossly incompetent, DENUKE HIM don't send him on some cushy TAD(like gage cal shop, valve shop, department supply, etc) job just to get him out of your hair.  Cushy TAD should be for guys that have done well and earned it. 

Finally, stop relying on two or three people for 80% of the work.  Too often, if a person exhibits competence on a job, he/she gets tagged with doing everything while those incompetent types get to slack off.  Make sure your people get trained, even if it takes longer to get done, because if those two or three people leave or are sick, you are screwed. 

It always seemed to me that the NNPP had a mentality of training new ones, using and abusing them for however long they signed up for, and then if they had had enough, let them get out at EAOS.  If they hadn't, well that was a nice suprise and we get to abuse him/her for a few more years.  Easier to replace them then try to actually change the program to keep the good ones. 

Just some insights on what I think would help.  Of course I could be wrong.
"No good deal goes unpunished"

"Explain using obscene hand jestures the concept of pump laws"

I have found the cure for LIBERALISM, it is a good steady dose of REALITY!

 


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