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Offline Preciousblue1965

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #225 on: Aug 13, 2008, 07:52 »
Sorry to continue to rant, but I remembered another wonderful instance of the new philosophy of the training pipeline.

As some of you know, at Prototype they now have qualified staff instructors go basically "TAD" up stairs to give checkouts all day to students.  Initially it is supposed to be a good deal because it gets you off of shift work and onto a normal days routine for 7 weeks.  You give checkouts to the brand new students and they all want the same basic ones.  No big deal.  Well during our first day they tell us how everything works, what they want from us, etc.  One of the very first things the ETC up there told us was make sure you ask the students locations of stuff on the boat to ensure they go down to the boat.  If they haven't been down to the boat, then they aren't ready for the checkout and kick them out of the checkout.  Ok fair enough.  I take this to heart and many upon many students felt I was being unfair that I was booting them for not going down to the boat.  Well at the end of the 7 weeks, the students give feedback to the Off crew group about the temp instructors.  Well since I had a torn ACL and couldn't stand watch I got elected to make a return appearance to the 7 week program the very next cycle.  When I went to talk to the ETCM that was the head guy in the Off Crew group(the same guy who was PMC as above) he sat me down and read two feedbacks from students about how they hated to get checkouts from me and that I kept booting some of them out of checkouts.   So he proceeds to tell me that I should tone down my checkouts, not ask as many questions, and not to harp so much on locations of things.  He also tells me that the reason for my low numbers of checkouts(we actually had a quota that we had to meet each week) was because I wasn't doing checkouts fast enough(when actually I was gone for about 6 hours every week due to physical therapy for my knee).  Well of course I was a little ticked at this point until I read the REST of the feedback in which there were at least 5 feedbacks that were positive, most to the effect that yes I more difficult than some to get a checkout from but that they learned the most from me. 

Now I realize this was just one guy(the ETCM) saying this, but when I brought it up to the ETC after I got blackballed by the ETCM(I wasn't allowed to to give checkouts to students who were severly behind the curve or that weren't exactly the sharpest ones), he basically blew me off and said that "That is just the way it is up here."  Even got talked to about my failure to meet quota by the civilian guy that was in charge of the off crew phase. 

So Gamecock, I hope that this sheds some light on why I(and many others) feel that the mentality is "get them through, no matter what".  Sorry to be so crast, but when you get told several times how to train a student by people that never have to deal with them again even though you do(Off Crews main focus was get them ahead of the curve by as much as possible and make sure they pass the exam at the end of 7 weeks, if they are broke let the crews fix them.), you get a little burned at the end. 
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Offline Preciousblue1965

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #226 on: Aug 13, 2008, 08:31 »
I'm done debating the program.  You guys probably know by now that I love the nuclear navy and love pretty much everything I've done in the navy.  I'm sorry that the experiences of you guys don't match mine, because the nuclear navy has been very, very good to me and my family.  And, knowing what my next job is already, I know its going to keep being good to me.

Henceforth, I hereby withdraw from further debate on this and all other opinion topics.

My posts from here on out will be limited to answering specific questions posed by individuals seeking help. 

Peace,
GC

I am not saying that the program wasn't good to me in some instances.  There are many things that I have seen and done and have the ability to do because I was a nuke in the pipeline.  I am who and what I am today because I was a Navy Nuke.  I realize I am in a relatively small group of people who have ever started up a nuclear reactor.  I just hate seeing the program take the turn that it has.  I hate the fact that there are people out there that are "giving nukes bad names" because they made it through the program even though they shouldn't have, have gotten out, and gone on to companies and are still incompetent, thus giving employeers bad examples of what nukes can do.  I fully respect your opinion and debate on the matter, I just feel that unless you have been in an instructor billet in the past 5 years, you may not see the shift like others do.  Then again you might have been and took it a different way then a lot of us have. 
"No good deal goes unpunished"

"Explain using obscene hand jestures the concept of pump laws"

I have found the cure for LIBERALISM, it is a good steady dose of REALITY!

Offline Gamecock

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #227 on: Aug 29, 2008, 12:53 »
The boss agreed to put this topic back in here.

Thank Mr. Rennhack when you get a chance.

Cheers,
GC

Note:  I took the liberty of removing the running GM commentary we had while the topic was in exile
« Last Edit: Aug 29, 2008, 01:02 by Gamecock »
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JustinHEMI05

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #228 on: Aug 29, 2008, 01:05 »
Thanks Mike!

Thanks GC!

Justin

PapaBear765

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #229 on: Aug 29, 2008, 02:19 »


I have as little respect for those who tattoo "FTN" on their body and start FunTimeNavy webpages as I do for those who are equally blinded by the positives of the navy and the NNPP.  The navy and the NNPP have positives and they have negatives.  Some of us have had experiences that were driven more so by one than the other, hence our current outlook on the system.  Neither person, the diggit or the dirtbag, have a realistic perspective because they've only seen the best/worst of the program: they're ignorant.

And as far as the talk earlier about the two Admirals and the one not having to understand what it takes for us to do our job on a daily basis, you're all wrong.  Try picking up a book sometime on leadership.  I recommend "The Carrot Principle."
« Last Edit: Nov 22, 2008, 10:43 by Gamecock »

JustinHEMI05

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #230 on: Aug 29, 2008, 03:19 »
I have as little respect for those who tattoo "FTN" on their body and start FunTimeNavy webpages as I do for those who are equally blinded by the positives of the navy and the NNPP.  The navy and the NNPP have positives and they have negatives.  Some of us have had experiences that were driven more so by one than the other, hence our current outlook on the system.  Neither person, the diggit or the dirtbag, have a realistic perspective because they've only seen the best/worst of the program: they're ignorant.

And as far as the talk earlier about the two Admirals and the one not having to understand what it takes for us to do our job on a daily basis, you're all wrong.  Try picking up a book sometime on leadership.  I recommend "The Carrot Principle."

I agree 100% with your points on the views of the extreme diggits and the extreme haters. Neither view is a realistic illustration of life in the Navy nuke power program.

As to your second point, no one ever said that a leader doesn't have to understand what you do everyday. Whether they do or not is debatable and your summary dismissal of everyone's opinion as wrong, is wrong. I have read many many books on leadership. No one ever suggested that the Admiral doesn't understand what you do on a day to day basis, except you. Again, you are wrong. I am quite confident that the Admiral does understand what you do on a day to day basis. What he chooses to lay importance on is of his concern, and his alone. How you chooses to perceive his concerns is yours alone. I believe your perception is wrong. That said, I also believe that, again, it isn't his job to worry about what you do on a day to day basis, on a day to day basis. My CEO certainly isn't worrying about Justin everyday and I wouldn't expect him to. His daily concerns are going to be vastly different from mine. Just as the Admirals concerns are going to be vastly different from yours. Just because you perceive him to be only concerned about cleanliness or other petty issues, doesn't mean that he isn't concerned about a million other issues that day. He doesn't have to share with you his concerns, as my CEO doesn't have to share his with me. Finally, I am sure that the Admiral and my CEO have far more concerns about far more issues on a daily basis than either of us combined. CEOs and Admirals aren't evil simply because they are worried about different things than us.

Justin
« Last Edit: Aug 29, 2008, 03:21 by JustinHEMI »

withroaj

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #231 on: Aug 29, 2008, 07:43 »

I agree 100% with your points on the views of the extreme diggits and the extreme haters. Neither view is a realistic illustration of life in the Navy nuke power program.


+1.  By the way PB, how'd the Admiral's visit go?  Any nuggets of wisdom to pass on to the fleet?

PapaBear765

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #232 on: Aug 30, 2008, 07:55 »
I agree 100% with your points on the views of the extreme diggits and the extreme haters. Neither view is a realistic illustration of life in the Navy nuke power program.

As to your second point, no one ever said that a leader doesn't have to understand what you do everyday. Whether they do or not is debatable and your summary dismissal of everyone's opinion as wrong, is wrong. I have read many many books on leadership. No one ever suggested that the Admiral doesn't understand what you do on a day to day basis, except you. Again, you are wrong. I am quite confident that the Admiral does understand what you do on a day to day basis. What he chooses to lay importance on is of his concern, and his alone. How you chooses to perceive his concerns is yours alone. I believe your perception is wrong. That said, I also believe that, again, it isn't his job to worry about what you do on a day to day basis, on a day to day basis. My CEO certainly isn't worrying about Justin everyday and I wouldn't expect him to. His daily concerns are going to be vastly different from mine. Just as the Admirals concerns are going to be vastly different from yours. Just because you perceive him to be only concerned about cleanliness or other petty issues, doesn't mean that he isn't concerned about a million other issues that day. He doesn't have to share with you his concerns, as my CEO doesn't have to share his with me. Finally, I am sure that the Admiral and my CEO have far more concerns about far more issues on a daily basis than either of us combined. CEOs and Admirals aren't evil simply because they are worried about different things than us.

Justin

I stopped reading after the first or second sentence, since you and others didn't see fit to read my comments fairly I won't read yours.  I never said "The Admiral has to know how to take a set of SEO logs as well as he manages the entire nuclear program."  Everyone extrapolated and twisted my comments, from me trying to point out that a root cause to why my job sucks is that my supervisors don't understand what I have to do every day to get the work done, into the supervisor has to know every single minuscule facet of my job and how to do it.  Sometimes you guys read a comment and take it for what it's trying to convey, the crux and nothing more.  Then sometimes you read posts like they're RPM procedures or the US Code.

So we're back, again, to you're mistaken.
« Last Edit: Aug 30, 2008, 08:03 by PapaBear765 »

PapaBear765

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #233 on: Aug 30, 2008, 08:11 »
+1.  By the way PB, how'd the Admiral's visit go?  Any nuggets of wisdom to pass on to the fleet?

My crew was fortunate enough to spend day last (the morning of the Admiral's visit) cleaning like crazy and then allowed to pass on his arrival due to us still being on 12-hr shifts at the time.  He talked to everyone, then had a special talk for the supervision complete with a master at arms outside the classroom to keep any eavesdroppers from hearing the yelling that could be heard down the hall.  Apparently, he also has tasked the technical directors of the prototypes with defining The Gold Standard.  Nice of him to finally get around to that.

The ptypes are hurting now, as far as how happy the Admiral is with us.  NY is really bad, and we're only a couple more screw ups away from them.

JsonD13

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #234 on: Aug 30, 2008, 10:13 »
It is my belief that the "Gold Standard" is already defined in everything that we are expected to be able to do.  If you can possibly follow every little rule that is made out there, you are the gold standard.  What needs to be defined is the bar between passing and failing.  Sure you can argue that on a test that bar is pretty cut and dry.  However, I can show you that same test's answer key and how there is no grading for understanding whatsoever.  I believe the admiral is just wasting people's time with this directive.

alphacookie

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #235 on: Aug 30, 2008, 12:23 »
In fact I did, on several occasions.  One of the former PMC's at Charleston said "We are no longer a filter, we are a pump.  I control the outlet valve and it is wide open."  So yes there is the mentality that get as many through as possible on several levels.  You can see it in everything that goes on there.  From the mentality that you aren't allowed to give a student less than a 2.4 on anything other than a test.  You know why?  "It might dishearten them."  I got a stern talking to because I gave a kid a 2.3 on a final board.  This was a mechanic that didn't even know pump laws or that oil flows through bearings in parallel not series.  The Training Manager told me that we don't give students less than 2.4 if they fail.  When I told him that my interpretation was that 2.4 was close to passing and this kid was no where close, he reiterated his point.  Same thing happened when our division was "informally" told that we couldn't fail a kid on his final watch after the 3rd time.  When our LPO flat out refused to obligue the SIT and our LCC, they put him in ERLL and ran 3 drills that never affected him and put him with an ELT watchstander doing a proficiency. 

Everyone has seen the shift over the past few years.  It used to be two subject failure and you are out of the program.  When I was a staff guy at Prototype, we were getting kids that failed two Academic boards and hadn't passed comp yet.  So how is that NOT "get everyone through, no matter what".  Yea we had 2 people fail out on academics, in the 3 YEARS I was there, and that was only after the kid failed 3 comps and it was found out he couldn't be book complete before his class graduated.  That is compared to countless others that should have. Yea I stayed for hours on end after shift helping a guy out.  I even stayed on site for over 18 hours just to sit a guys FOB re-board as his EWS guy.  But it was because I believed the kid would make a decent operator over time.   

This was on the local level.  During CMC calls we were told that Bowman said "you will lower your non-academic attrition rates"  by the CMC.  So thus began so many policy changes that were rediculous.  We actually spent several hours a day going to students apartments and doing inspections to ensure they weren't living in cardboard boxes.  This wasn't Navy housing either.  Although this was started on Bowman's watch, I have yet to see any change in this thought process by Donald.  I am sure that there are others that will attest to this.

As a former NPTU Shift Eng, I can back up everything you said here as absolute truth.  I can't even begin to count the number of times I and the SIT were crapped on by the OIC because the "potential" of attrition was high.  I was overridden numerous times despite my recommendation not to give a student(s) a THIRD COMP or a THIRD FINAL EVALUATED WATCH.  I have had to send Chiefs, Crew Master Chiefs and etc. to various students houses, who were UA for many days, just to coax them out so they would come to work(Yes, they were allowed to complete the program).  I have pushed through so many E-2's and E-3's, who had been to Captain's Mast multiple times for various character issues, it makes me ill.  I have also been reprimanded on more than one occasion for giving a student less than 2.4 on their final oral board(S).

The best was when the Admiral directed NPS and NPTU to form an "Attrition Commission" as one my fellow Shift Eng's liked to call it.  One of the tasks of the Attrition Commission was to develop a plan to deal with NPS comp failures that were subsequently sent to NPTU.  At the time, there was no "REAL" consequence for failing the NPS comp.  The only thing that was done to comp failures was they were sent to an oral board, hands were slapped and then they were sent to prototype.  The Attrition Commission's solution was to establish a NPS comp upgrade program and allow another comp prior to allowing students to advance to prototype.

I have read many prototype student files of NPS comp failures that stated something like, "Failed X areas of comp and failed comp overall.  Student sent to oral board and it was decided that the student SHOULD "PROBABLY" do well at NPTU".  One of my many advisees was a FIVE area comp failure.  He failed his 50% exam, required multiple NPTU comps, multiple FEW's, two oral boards and an extension to finish prototype.  I hope he made some boat and wardroom proud.

What is the root cause of all this?  The Admiral's quotas and policy!!!!  What the Admiral wants, he gets!

When I first joined the Navy Nuclear Power program, I received a letter(probably propaganda) in the mail that stated that those in the nuclear program were in the top 1% of the Navy.  Definitely not true today!
« Last Edit: Aug 30, 2008, 12:28 by alphacookie »

Offline Preciousblue1965

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #236 on: Aug 31, 2008, 08:52 »
As a former NPTU Shift Eng, I can back up everything you said here as absolute truth.  I can't even begin to count the number of times I and the SIT were crapped on by the OIC because the "potential" of attrition was high.  I was overridden numerous times despite my recommendation not to give a student(s) a THIRD COMP or a THIRD FINAL EVALUATED WATCH.  I have had to send Chiefs, Crew Master Chiefs and etc. to various students houses, who were UA for many days, just to coax them out so they would come to work(Yes, they were allowed to complete the program).  I have pushed through so many E-2's and E-3's, who had been to Captain's Mast multiple times for various character issues, it makes me ill.  I have also been reprimanded on more than one occasion for giving a student less than 2.4 on their final oral board(S).

The best was when the Admiral directed NPS and NPTU to form an "Attrition Commission" as one my fellow Shift Eng's liked to call it.  One of the tasks of the Attrition Commission was to develop a plan to deal with NPS comp failures that were subsequently sent to NPTU.  At the time, there was no "REAL" consequence for failing the NPS comp.  The only thing that was done to comp failures was they were sent to an oral board, hands were slapped and then they were sent to prototype.  The Attrition Commission's solution was to establish a NPS comp upgrade program and allow another comp prior to allowing students to advance to prototype.

I have read many prototype student files of NPS comp failures that stated something like, "Failed X areas of comp and failed comp overall.  Student sent to oral board and it was decided that the student SHOULD "PROBABLY" do well at NPTU".  One of my many advisees was a FIVE area comp failure.  He failed his 50% exam, required multiple NPTU comps, multiple FEW's, two oral boards and an extension to finish prototype.  I hope he made some boat and wardroom proud.

What is the root cause of all this?  The Admiral's quotas and policy!!!!  What the Admiral wants, he gets!

When I first joined the Navy Nuclear Power program, I received a letter(probably propaganda) in the mail that stated that those in the nuclear program were in the top 1% of the Navy.  Definitely not true today!

Thank you for giving my argument more weight than just my own experience.  Unfortunately this is the norm these days and I feel that tragically we are just a few short years away from a significant nuclear incident in the Nuclear Navy.  I hope that I am very wrong.
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"Explain using obscene hand jestures the concept of pump laws"

I have found the cure for LIBERALISM, it is a good steady dose of REALITY!

withroaj

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #237 on: Aug 31, 2008, 12:19 »
Thank you for giving my argument more weight than just my own experience.  Unfortunately this is the norm these days and I feel that tragically we are just a few short years away from a significant nuclear incident in the Nuclear Navy.  I hope that I am very wrong.

Don't you think plant design and operating procedures are conservative enough to make a dumb guy safe in the plant?  The way I see it, a guy without deep knowledge of plant construction and operation doesn't really have what it takes to do something really bad.  The smart guys are the really scary ones.  The biggest problem with pushing struggling kids through the pipeline seems more like the fact that they become a load on the division and on supervisors.  That drives quality of life down for the people that have to babysit the dumb kid, but it doesn't really pose much danger to the plant or the crew.

Offline Preciousblue1965

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #238 on: Aug 31, 2008, 12:58 »
Don't you think plant design and operating procedures are conservative enough to make a dumb guy safe in the plant?  The way I see it, a guy without deep knowledge of plant construction and operation doesn't really have what it takes to do something really bad.  The smart guys are the really scary ones.  The biggest problem with pushing struggling kids through the pipeline seems more like the fact that they become a load on the division and on supervisors.  That drives quality of life down for the people that have to babysit the dumb kid, but it doesn't really pose much danger to the plant or the crew.

After giving it a little more thought, I am not sure that the actual reactor plant could be damaged by someone who truly has no idea what is going on.  However, there is A LOT of other stuff in the engine room that a less knowledgeable person could easily destroy and even end up getting some people killed.  Between all the electric plant breakers, pumps, valves, steam, and even the jacking gear, there is a lot of dangerous stuff that someone who is less than compentant could easily destory.  But as the inspirational poster says "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"  All you gotta do is have one person open a wrong valve and you could have an international incident on your hands. 

Along those same lines, remember that all it takes is one perceived "major" incident and the public support of the Navy Nuclear Program goes out the window(see USS HOUSTON).  As minor as that issue is, to a public that is largely uneducated about nuclear power it is a HUGE issue. 
"No good deal goes unpunished"

"Explain using obscene hand jestures the concept of pump laws"

I have found the cure for LIBERALISM, it is a good steady dose of REALITY!

withroaj

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #239 on: Aug 31, 2008, 01:13 »

...and even the jacking gear...


Back in the fall of 2005, MTS 635 Crew B had the honor of instructing the "smartest" enlisted student ever to complete NPS.  The kid graduated with a 3.98 GPA.  One fine day/evening/night (I was on Alpha, this guy was a student on my roommates' crew), this brilliant fellow was under instruction in ERUL

xxxxx editted to remove actual equipment and an operating parameter xxxxx


I guess I'm not really making my point here, since the guy just made a rookie mistake (right?).  I guess it was just amazing to me to hear that the smartest enlisted nuke ever very well could have destroyed a pretty important piece of gear.  By the way, I'm pretty sure they put him in ELT school until his officer stuff got approved.  What kind of S*** is that? Make him an ELT because he's smart and sucks as a mechanic.
« Last Edit: Aug 31, 2008, 02:23 by Gamecock »

Offline arduousartifice

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #240 on: Sep 01, 2008, 05:07 »
Back in the fall of 2005, MTS 635 Crew B had the honor of instructing the "smartest" enlisted student ever to complete NPS.  The kid graduated with a 3.98 GPA.  One fine day/evening/night (I was on Alpha, this guy was a student on my roommates' crew), this brilliant fellow was under instruction in ERUL

xxxxx editted to remove actual equipment and an operating parameter xxxxx


I guess I'm not really making my point here, since the guy just made a rookie mistake (right?).  I guess it was just amazing to me to hear that the smartest enlisted nuke ever very well could have destroyed a pretty important piece of gear.  By the way, I'm pretty sure they put him in ELT school until his officer stuff got approved.  What kind of S*** is that? Make him an ELT because he's smart and sucks as a mechanic.

I remember him, we were in the same boot camp division, and I edited the essay for his STA-21 package, but he didn't get picked up, and wound up on a boomer in King's Bay.  I believe his division was jacked up and he had a very difficult time of it because he refused to live with the sleaze, that and, if you didn't know him, you would think he was a very funny looking individual, and not realize the brain he had.

I agree that a certain amount of clueless people is acceptable (RT, AEA, ERLL on most underways), from a reactor safety standpoint, say one person in maneuvering and two in the spaces who know what to do and you should be fine, but that leaves eight other people out there who aren't worth too much, and that would definitely make divisional workloads horribly unbalanced.

Besides, aren't we all fearing a bit too much about what is really a small minority of students that make it through the pipeline and shouldn't.  I agree it is frustrating to have someone show up who's main use is as a flycatcher, but he can stand SRW, so as long as the pipeline doesn't crank out more that 1/3 waste product, everything will work out, just as it always has.
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alphacookie

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #241 on: Sep 01, 2008, 07:30 »

Besides, aren't we all fearing a bit too much about what is really a small minority of students that make it through the pipeline and shouldn't.  I agree it is frustrating to have someone show up who's main use is as a flycatcher, but he can stand SRW, so as long as the pipeline doesn't crank out more that 1/3 waste product, everything will work out, just as it always has.

No, we are not fearing too much, that so called "small minority".  The amount of time that was/is spent pushing these morons through the program significantly affected/s the rest of the students in the program, not to mention the quality of life of the staff.  The crew Masterchief, SIT and myself had to generate/oversee a watchbill that required a crew staff member to come in on +4's to babysit/give checkouts to and prep re-exams for the nuclear challenged.

Offline Preciousblue1965

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #242 on: Sep 04, 2008, 10:49 »
I might have been around for that.  I remember one crew was putting in +4s to help dinq students for several months. 

But back to heart of the matter, how do we fix this problem and maintain fleet manning?
"No good deal goes unpunished"

"Explain using obscene hand jestures the concept of pump laws"

I have found the cure for LIBERALISM, it is a good steady dose of REALITY!

Offline Preciousblue1965

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #243 on: Sep 04, 2008, 02:30 »
I know.  I know.  I'm the insensitive one.  Hey everybody look at me Mr. Insensitivity.  :P

Seriously though:

These kids are in the fleet now.   :(  >:(  You can't put the baby back in the womb.   :o  This is a disaster waiting to happen.   :-X  Heck some of the best Navy Nukes got sideways with the 2.5 (or less) from time to time.  But, they busted there rear's off doing it.   :)

Also, since I'm up on a box right now, this degradation of personal integrity is a real issue.  We were told "Give us a reason!" and your gone.  These kids don't deserve to be Navy Nukes that have crossed the lines outside of the GPA/Failure issue.

Of course I don't understand this whole 'touchie feelie' Navy anyway.   :-[   >:(

But hey that's just me (aka Mr. Insensitive).

(sound of a ex-navy nuke getting off a soap box)

Jason

Don't leave the soapbox yet, preach on brother HoneyComb.  Go tell it on the mountain. 

I completely and utterly agree with you on this issue.  I hate the fact that we have gone from the "boot in the arse and get qualified NUB" Nuclear Navy to the "Let me hold your hand and do your quals for you and nevermind that mean ole' guy that threw you out of a checkout becuase you don't know anything". 

Unfortunately I feel that HoneyComb is right in that we have opened up the outlet valve from P-type to full open, have managed to lose the darn handwheel, and bent the stem trying to shut it with a "diggit" tool.  As I have said on other threads, I feel that we are a few short years away from a major incident of some kind.  It may not be directly related to the RX, but then again we are just one "limp wrist" and gundecked valve checks from having another USS HOUSTON situation. 

It was one of my top 5 reasons for leaving after my P-type tour.  I did not want to go back to the fleet with some of the "nuclearly challenged" students I saw leave with their NEC in hand.  Also wanted to get out and find a job before the term "Navy Nuke" was sullied by those same "challenged" individuals. 
"No good deal goes unpunished"

"Explain using obscene hand jestures the concept of pump laws"

I have found the cure for LIBERALISM, it is a good steady dose of REALITY!

JustinHEMI05

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #244 on: Sep 04, 2008, 04:44 »
I too agree with the both of you. There is a story I so want to tell but I am afraid it could still get me into some kind of trouble.  :D

Justin

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #245 on: Sep 04, 2008, 04:54 »
You're a civilian now, Justin. Wait until I get out next month; I have 2 cents on this topic as well.

JustinHEMI05

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #246 on: Sep 04, 2008, 05:40 »
You're a civilian now, Justin. Wait until I get out next month; I have 2 cents on this topic as well.

So are you telling me the stories they tell us when we get to Ptype as instructors of going after people when they get out were lies? :) I gotta tell ya then, I was gullible enough to fall for it. :)

Justin

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #247 on: Sep 04, 2008, 05:50 »
So are you telling me the stories they tell us when we get to Ptype as instructors of going after people when they get out were lies? :) I gotta tell ya then, I was gullible enough to fall for it. :)

Justin

Classified information is one thing, your recollections of a broke training program are a different story in my opinion. Its pretty painful here at the moment; probably as bad as I have seen in my 3 years here.

PapaBear765

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #248 on: Sep 04, 2008, 06:57 »
(sound of a ex-navy nuke getting off a soap box)

Does that have Anchors Away in the background?

I've been lucky enough to never have received a direct hit from the Pump Policy, but I've seen/heard a handful of examples.  I had the pleasure of being the staff adviser on several occasions for troubled students.  The one kid was -20% when he departed for CCU.  His CO's mast and going to CCU, and eventual removal from the program, I will gladly take credit for because of what a SPU told me who came to my boat before I transferred.  I asked him about students not being removed from the pipeline and he said it's possible if the staff adviser documents enough in his ITR.  So wrote pages upon pages for each problem kid of mine.  And they were all removed.

My kids were enlisted, it's a lot more political to drop an officer.  I've seen enough of the Pump Policy to know of its existence and practice, despite what Game Cock ever says.  The blatant offenses to the integrity of the program are not as often as this discussion makes them out to be, but then again I'm not privy to everything.  What I see more of is all of the little things that add up to the overall effect of "pumping."  Like the exam keys for 50% and comps are absolutely embarrassing. 

Whatever, the problems are significant and plentiful, hence my imminent separation and the separation of many more others.  Others, like me, who had grand intentions of staying navy.

JustinHEMI05

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #249 on: Sep 04, 2008, 07:50 »
Does that have Anchors Away in the background?

I've been lucky enough to never have received a direct hit from the Pump Policy, but I've seen/heard a handful of examples.  I had the pleasure of being the staff adviser on several occasions for troubled students.  The one kid was -20% when he departed for CCU.  His CO's mast and going to CCU, and eventual removal from the program, I will gladly take credit for because of what a SPU told me who came to my boat before I transferred.  I asked him about students not being removed from the pipeline and he said it's possible if the staff adviser documents enough in his ITR.  So wrote pages upon pages for each problem kid of mine.  And they were all removed.

My kids were enlisted, it's a lot more political to drop an officer.  I've seen enough of the Pump Policy to know of its existence and practice, despite what Game Cock ever says.  The blatant offenses to the integrity of the program are not as often as this discussion makes them out to be, but then again I'm not privy to everything.  What I see more of is all of the little things that add up to the overall effect of "pumping."  Like the exam keys for 50% and comps are absolutely embarrassing. 

Whatever, the problems are significant and plentiful, hence my imminent separation and the separation of many more others.  Others, like me, who had grand intentions of staying navy.


I agree with your assessment of officers. As an officer trainer, I spent many many hours pre/post shift helping problem officers get through. The attitude was/is that the ETAs weren't doing their jobs if an officer was failing. I had to prove that a student failed a watch and didn't deserve to just have me "take the watch" and give it back when I was done un-screwing his situation. Then an ETC (my lead ETA and eventual LCC) whom I highly respected, pointed out to me the fact that it does NO GOOD for an enlisted person to fail an officer student on watch. So he never did even as a Chief because they had to be failed by an officer or civilian for any real consequences to happen. So, I stopped failing them on watch too. Saved me a lot of work! So I guess I am partly guilty of being just part of the problem. But to give credit to one of my LTs, he was all about failing officers that should be failing. So if I had a problem officer, he stepped in and stood watch with him and failed him. So it worked out in the end a couple of time. Point of all of this is that contrary to the belief of some, the officer side is broke too. I tried to be part of the solution, but it became too much work and trouble for me. A cop out? Sure, but I was ROAD and didn't give a crap by that point. I still managed high marks from officer student end of courses all the way to EAOS though. That could have had something to do with post watch poker games at my house though. ;)

My solution was to take the word of the ETAs more seriously. I didn't spend all of that time with them and stand all of those watches to have my opinion discounted in the end. We, the ETAs, know what we are talking about.

I am also guilty of pumping one guy (enlisted em) through out of spite. I apologize to anyone serving with this douche. I was chairing this young mans board one day. Before the board, I was reading his record and it was FULL of documentation stating that this kid was doing his best to fail out of the program. That made no sense to me since he passed his exams and all indicators showed that he was intelligent. But, before his board, his staff came to me and said that the kid intended to provide nothing but wrong answers because he wanted out of the program and out of the Navy. Well I decided that if I had to go to sea as a nuke, then why in heck should he get out of it? And sure enough, he provided the wrong answers to everything. You could tell he had to think of a way to answer it wrong. So when we called him back in after grading, I asked "how do you think you did?" He said "I am pretty sure I failed, right?" I said "Wrong shipmate, your a$$ is going to the fleet. congratulations." He wasn't happy. So that's my story. I don't remember his name or anything now, just the look on his face when he thought he was going to get out of the program and realized he was now a nuke headed to the fleet. Wrong, yes, and I am sorry. But I just couldn't bare the thought of letting him get away with something. Hindsight is that he is probably a pain in someones behind now and I feel bad about that. I also realize this story is off topic.

Justin
« Last Edit: Sep 04, 2008, 07:51 by JustinHEMI »

 


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