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JsonD13

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #300 on: Sep 09, 2008, 06:32 »
I defense of my previous posts, there is nothing wrong with doing something better than the last guy.  The problem lies when that is the expectation, your COC tells the auditor that that is the law of the land, and then the auditor writes up a deficiency based upon that.  No real rule has been broken, however you didn't do something the way they wanted to see it.  So then immediate corrective action follows, and et cetera. I just think that its wrong to say "hey this is the best way to do it, so its how it MUST be done".  This leads to your technician just blindy following because when they tried to use their brain, they got smacked for it. ;-)

Jason

Offline G-reg

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #301 on: Sep 10, 2008, 12:31 »
An Essay On Perception

"This could be very damaging to your career."  Say that exact phrase to 99% of the blue-shirt population, and the responses you'll receive in return will usually have the flavor of "What planet are you from originally?".  In contrast, among the majority of the Officer population (and a significant percentage of the CPO population), the exact phrase given above is generally closer to saying "You will be put to death by firing squad, and your family will be billed for the bullets we use".  I'm not 100% sure how the Ensign population at large is delivered to the fleet with such an inflated sense of doom and danger about their individual career progressions.  Even if you level the playing field for age (to account for a few years' difference between the average ages of a newly-reporting Ensign and a newly-reporting PO3), there is still a tremendous disparity between the average "fear factor" levels which members of these two groups have for own their individual careers.

And I think that the military (it's not just the NNPP or even the Navy) has a way of wielding "career" like a 9lb hammer with its Officer corps.  Every Department Head and Div-O gets a FitRep from their CO, and every CO gets a FitRep from their Commodore, & so on & so on right up the line.  And surely the heavens will fall and the seas will part if there is anything on said FitRep which causes an Officer to get passed by for promotion.  But FitReps and the "career hammer" are used all the way down the line to ensure that Brass gets what Brass wants; after all, they are the ones who ultimately have their finger on the button of everyone's career below them.  And this "career fear" is an intrinsic part of the lives of so many Officers - sometimes even on a day to day basis.

So why do I bring this up?  Because so many times, I have heard the "I have a broader perspective" argument brought up as a cover story, when the most honest wording of the rebuttal would have been ultimately closer to "because that's how the Brass wants it to be, and I really don't want to be passed over for my next promotion".  An even more disturbing fact is that the setup of this particular system actually protects its own existence; there are no whistleblower protections in the military - if you piss off the Brass, you're going to get f***ed, end of story and welcome to the world of the 9lb hammer.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying that everybody uses "I have a broader perspective" as a method of obfuscation.  And NukeLDO, I am not trying to say that this is what you are doing.  But you should understand that enough of your predecessors and peers have use this tactic to dilute the true import when YOU speak these words.  (More to follow on this in a few moments.)  And Justin, keep in mind that "the broader perspective" at times will really come down to something that most PO2's won't give a rat's ass about - how would you propose to motivate the troops in light of this?

My next observation about the "I have a broader perspective" statement is an evaluation of the simple merit of this statement on its own.  Let's assume that the speaker in this particular example truly does have a broader perspective than his audience, such as in the case of ENS SuperJO talking to Lower-Level Louis.  Odds are good in this little tableau that Lower Level Louis has a more in-depth perspective of the equipment on his watchstation than ENS SuperJO, by virtue of the fact that he actually operates said equipment regularly.  So then, naturally, the debate shifts to "which is better - a broader perspective, or a more in-depth perspective?".

To which I reply, "the answer is obvious: if you had to pick one, which type of perspective would you rather be without?"  The answer to this question is obvious, because the answer to this question is 'neither'.  Neither perspective is inherently "better" than the other.  Thus, the "I have a broader perspective" statement by itself is essentially meritless, and can usually be effectively countered with the equally meritless "I have a more in-depth perspective" statement.  If either statement is the most definitive or persuasive one that a speaker can come up, then they might as well just stick with "because I said so, that's why".

NukeLDO, I do value your inputs and insights - and I am sure that others in this forum do as well.  But you are going to have to do better than "I have a broader perspective" and "a person's perspective is limited".  Keep in mind, after all, that your own perspective is limited in its own way (just as the particular perspective that I myself have is also limited).

I know that you can do better than this...

As always,
    Peace,
     - Greg
"But that's just my opinion - I could be wrong."
  -  Dennis Miller

JustinHEMI05

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #302 on: Sep 10, 2008, 12:38 »
Wow, well said. That is a two reader to make sure I caught it all. Thanks for the effort and perspective!

Justin

redneckrecruit

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #303 on: Sep 10, 2008, 05:34 »
Thanks for your input, but I have to disagree with you. As I read through the thread and filter out the personal anecdotes and gripes, any real problem someone suggests they most often do present their idea of a solution. I do agree that if you remove the personal stories, this thread would probably be 5 pages long. I also look forward to your take in a few years.

Jason,

And this is when i insert foot in to mouth. i made my first post having not read all the post (there's only so many i can read on a 15 min break). It takes some time to find the answers, but your right they are here. 

PapaBear765

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #304 on: Sep 10, 2008, 07:13 »
...there are no whistleblower protections in the military...

SECNAVINST 5370.7C "Military Whistleblower Reprisal Protection"

Anyway, thanks for your post.  It's rare here to read an actual debate-level response.

PapaBear765

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #305 on: Sep 10, 2008, 07:22 »
Not accusing anyone here of being ignorant or an ignoramus.  Just pointing out that a person's perspective is limited.
NRRO guys are people too.  Feel free to stop one of them when you see them down on the boat and actually talk to them.  Yes, a few bad apples can spoil the bunch, but thats true anywhere.  For the most part, you'll find them to be personable, interested in what's going on, and willing to listen.  But you have to recognize that by virtue of their position, they aren't always going to provide you what they are thinking because they have the larger program interests to protect.  Could the COC provide more perspective?  Probably.  Why don't they?  I don't know.
The PO2's perception is his reality...I think I agreed with that.  Like I said, not trying to be argumentative here.  The PO2's of the world make it go round, so I'm not dismissing anybody.
And I'm certainly not in any position to defend any comments provided by someone else.  So don't ask me about "BS" hits, because I can't speak to it.
Again, my comment was not intended to call anyone ignorant...perhaps I should change it to perceptually challenged?   ;D
That said, I stand by my opinion that there is alot of misinformation out there about NR and NRRO.  Its not my place to correct that in a public forum.  As I (and others) stated implicitly in previous posts, only one person speaks for the program, and that's the ADM.  I'd be happy to discuss what I do for living with any of you privately.

After reading "The Rickover Effect" I understand a little more of what NRRO is all about, but not enough.  Why does it have to be so secret?  From reading the book it's explained why NRRO rep's are so anti-social: it's because Rickover wanted it that way.  His philosophy was that if you get buddy-buddy with the people you're monitoring, then you're more apt to accept their excuses for why they're not operating IAW the procedures.  Basically it's to keep the monitor more objective.  Fine, that makes sense.  How about some more data points that would help sailors see things as NRRO sees them?

One of the reasons why "things always go wrong when NRRO is watching" is because they come down to the boat with the mentality of searching for discrepancies while we come down to the boat thinking about what has to get done today, what was done yesterday, what do I need to do to setup for X that's happening in a couple days, etc. all the while the assumption is mixed in there that everything is being done correctly.  Therefore we're not tuned-in to searching for discrepancies.
« Last Edit: Sep 11, 2008, 08:54 by PapaBear765 »

Offline NukeLDO

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #306 on: Sep 10, 2008, 01:27 »
Definitely not saying I have ultimate or better perception.  I too am perceptually challenged.
That said, the approach to things is conceptually different.  If you walk down with the mindset that something is wrong, you are probably going to find something wrong.  If you approach the subject with the mindset that everything is OK, whatever is wrong is probably going to find you.  If more folks approached their tasks with the former mindset, we probably wouldn't have half the problems that find us.
As for which perception is better...I agree it doesn't work as an argument, but remember, I wasn't arguing.  But, 99% of the field office NRRO reps have been there, done that.  They were Lower Level Louis at one point and have the in depth perspective that comes from having been an operator.  They've been the chief of the division and gained some management experience.  Consequently, they have a pretty good idea of where the skeletons are.  They then gain perspective through performance of their duties as NRRO reps.  Lower Level Louis end up learning more than he ever wanted to know about switchboards, chemistry, etc.  So in that sense, it is a broader perspective than that of the operator.  Who would you rather have working for you?
Additionally, the NRRO of today is not the NRRO of yesterday.  Usta' NRRO walked around carrying a big stick and beating people with it.  Today, NRRO still carries a big stick but the marching orders aren't necessarily to use the stick.  ADM Bowman wanted NRRO to "help."  So there has been some shift in that direction over the last 10 years.  Ask any SY worker.  However, there are still some dinosaurs around. ;D
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Offline G-reg

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #307 on: Sep 11, 2008, 12:57 »
Several good points have been brought up, but first I want to applaud NukeLDO.  Thank you for your level-headed response to my point.  I didn't get the sense that you were trying to be condescending or antagonistic about "broader perspective", and I tried very hard to reciprocate that in my post.  You, sir, are a credit to the Navy and an asset to the NNPP.



SECNAVINST 5370.7C "Military Whistleblower Reprisal Protection"
Thanks for the research!  I've never seen this instruction actually in action - do you think it works (or would work, which ever the case may be)?



... His philosophy was that if you get buddy-buddy with the people you're monitoring, then you're more apt to accept their excuses for why they're not operating IAW the procedures.  Basically it's to keep the monitor more objective.
You hit it pretty much dead-on.  It's similar to the reason a court judge has to recuse himself from a case if he has a personal relationship with anyone on the case.  And then finally, there's the fact that HGR believed that anything worth doing, was worth going way to the extreme...  :)  I am glad that the extremism in this particular area is moderating, as NukeLDO pointed out.  And I can bear witness as to having seen this moderating trend before I retired earlier this year.  And IMHO, the Field Office in the Portsmouth Naval SY is leading the pack in this trend - I've never dealt with an NRR Office which was better to work with in general than them.



How about some more data points that would help sailors see things as NRRO sees them?

One of the reasons why "things always go wrong when NRRO is watching" is because they come down to the boat with the mentality of searching for discrepancies while we come down to the boat thinking about ...
You actually answered your own question pretty well there.  For starters, NRRO does have a different focus than Ship's Force.  As you illustrated, NRRO's focus is (of necessity) more limited in its breadth than SF's.  Even for the members of Engineering Department, Ship's Force does a ton of stuff which has nothing at all to do with nuclear power.  PT, GMT, Quarters on the Pier, Ship's Quals, Section Tracking Party trainers (for ERS's, AEA's, and EOOW's), gun shoots, Career Review Boards, OPTEMPO, and on and on ad infinitum.  All of these 'other' things can be - and are - very significant time consumers for SF.  When you go down to the boat, all of these things are pinging at you throughout your day.  When NRRO comes down to a boat, it's generally for a 2hr Monitor Watch, or to observe some specific special evolution; they are there for a relatively short stint of time, and they have a highly-focused objective to accomplish within that short period of time.  As such, they can ideally be completely nuclear-related (i.e. no non-nuclear distractions are occurring) during their entire stint on your ship.  (On a side note, this is actually harder than it sounds - try walking through the Engineroom for two straight hours, thinking only thoughts about nuclear requirements & ensuring that said requirements are being met.  Then, repeat many many times over - you'll start getting a feel for where they're coming from.)  And NRRO's undistracted focus is actually a good thing from a plant safety standpoint, because they can point out things that SF is missing while they're battling with the multi-headed hydra which we call day-to-day shipboard life.  And finally, if plant safety is at risk of being undermined by non-nuclear time consumers, NR has the clout to rearrange priorities (up to and including cancelling underways and keeping the ship in port) as necessary to ensure that nuclear requirements are given the time and attention that they need.

One of the things which I misunderstood and underestimated while I was in the Navy is the connection between NNPP and the non-military side of the house (particularly the Department of Energy).  For instance, there are a LOT of parallels between DoE RadCon and NNPP RadCon.  I'm intrigued by the potential connections between DoE and NNPP now; just how many of the NNPP rules which we know but don't agree with (or perhaps understand) have been brought over to us by NR from the DoE's way of doing business?  And similarly, from a purely academic standpoint, how much does the NNPP bleed over into DoE?  If NukeLDO or cyclicrings or anyone else could offer a peek behind the curtain here, I would be very interested.



And for JsonD13, "best practices" are one of the best ways to start a fight that I know of - it ranks right up there with politics & religion.  Probably the biggest part of the problem is that the definition of "best" is frequently very subjective.  What is "best" in one situation (or at one location, or for one person) does not automatically guarantee that it will be the "best" universally.  But, the other side of the coin is that any given "best practice" obviously had/has some merit, or else it never would have earned the label "best" practice.
If a best practice ever came around that I didn't agree with, I took it as a homework assignment because often it meant that there was some benefit which I wasn't aware of or didn't fully appreciate/understand.  If nothing else, it became a chance for me to make myself "smarter than I used to be".  Of course, after looking into them, some of the touted best practices actually turned out to be low-IQ turds from someone simply trying to inflate their own sense of importance.  (And FYI, this particular occurrence happens on the commercial side of things also.)  But either way, I usually learned something from doing the research.  And don't unduly limit the research that you do into new best practices - pull down books from the shelf that you haven't dusted off in several months, and ask people from outside of your current command.  If you don't agree with a best practice, then make good and sure that you aren't just sticking with your side of the story; fully understand the other side before you discount it.
So yes, I believe in well thought out best practices.  If somebody has built a better mousetrap that I can use, then I want to know about it so I can look into it.  I won't guarantee that I'll use it exactly "as-is", because like I mentioned earlier, "best" is a very subjective term.
To throw another wrinkle into the discussion here, I am not a fan of "everybody has to do everything exactly the same way".  For example, let's take a look at doing daily primary samples.  Without going into any classified details, I will tell you that there is no such thing as "one best way" to do a primary sample.  I myself am left-handed; I will reach around and operate valves/switches inside the Primary Sample Sink in a manner which is not identical to how a right-handed person draws a sample.  A standardized routine which works "best" for the majority of ELT's would actually be detrimental for my performance inside the PSS.  Similarly, tall people and short people reach around inside the PSS in different ways; not to miss an opportunity for a pun, there is no one-size-fits-all "best" practice in this instance.  For valid and logical reasons, there are occasions where there are multiple "best" practices in friendly coexistence.
And finally, it is my opinion that "everybody has to do everything exactly the same way" stunts growth.  I cannot begin to count or explain all the things I have learned from the junior ELT's in my division (even on my 3rd LELT tour, and during my tour as the Squadron LELT), simply because they had a new way of doing things which had never occurred to me.  I could go on and on about all the truly clever things I learned from watching other people doing things in different ways - it is simply not possible to overemphasize this particular point.  Of course, the flip side is that without a "everybody has to do everything exactly the same way" mentality, you get some really dumb ideas popping up too.  But the way I see it, you have one of two choices; you either:
Take the good with the bad, keep the "good", correct the "bad", and continue growing & evolving as a Division (and as individual people).
Or you all stay exactly the same today as you were yesterday, doing things exactly the same way as everybody did them yesterday, and exactly the same way you will all do these things tomorrow - never changing, for all of eternity, world without end amen.
For me, the choice was an easy one...

Just one guy's ramblings - I'd love to hear (and learn from) everybody else's thoughts & ideas.

Peace, everybody!
 - Greg
"But that's just my opinion - I could be wrong."
  -  Dennis Miller

PapaBear765

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #308 on: Sep 11, 2008, 09:14 »
Thanks for the research!  I've never seen this instruction actually in action - do you think it works (or would work, which ever the case may be)?

The research took me all of 2 minutes.  I have bookmarked the website for OPNAV and SECNAV instructions.  While in the shipyard, during my enlightenment, I would spend hours skimming through said instructions and others, anything I could find, that related to sub life or military/navy life.  You know how many "requirements" I would find that my command, or the navy in general, were not adhering to?  So many that I would frequently find myself in the goat locker having a "conversation" with a few chiefs.  I mention all this because it goes back to what I was trying to convey earlier about wanting my supervisor to crack a book open every now and then and refresh their knowledge on how they're supposed to do their job.

Did you know it's a requirement that the CO must maximize in-port duty section rotation so as there are the minimum number of people on-board (OPNAVINST 3120.32C)? 

So, no.  It's not a very useful instruction unless you're blowing the whistle on the command lighting a suspected homosexual on fire.  The mundane things like, "Hey, COB.  You know that I'm supposed to get Friday off because I have duty on Saturday and Monday is a holiday?" don't go over very well.


...try walking through the engine room for two straight hours, thinking only thoughts about nuclear requirements & ensuring that said requirements are being met.

I would do that, and frequently point out NRRO-level comments—the annoying little, "petty" stuff that no one wants to deal with.  So, they don't get dealt with because it's just ET2 pointing them out, not N R R O.  We've conditioned ourselves to ignoring ourselves when we find discrepancies that we would otherwise jump on if NRRO pointed them out.  We're very good at shooting ourselves in the foot.


..."best practices"...

It's been shown in the workplace that like-minded thinking inhibits creativity and innovation and, therefore, reduces productivity.  So the best companies foster and encourage the whole "thinking out of the box" stuff.  We should do that too.  How often when you were in the navy did you train on flooding from a S/G overboard line?  Think about that one and all of the things that the watch team would have to do.  But no one's trained on it because no one thinks it's okay to be creative.  We're too consumed by worrying about the best practices for shifting pumps.  How long did it take the RPM to get a casualty procedure for feed rupture?
« Last Edit: Sep 11, 2008, 09:18 by PapaBear765 »

Offline NukeLDO

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #309 on: Sep 11, 2008, 09:28 »
Just a couple quick comments:
  "Best practices:"  my experience is that this phrase is most often heard from the NPEB/PORSE guys.  Yes, its nice to have a benchmark of what works well, but there is certainly more than one way to skin the cat.  If your way of skinning it meets the requirements, no issues.  Might have some ideas on how to make it easier on yourself, based on what we've seen (27 DMP/SRA/EOH/ERO/PIRA avails has given me a little time to see what folks do and how it varies from ship to ship) and would be happy to share those if you'd care to listen.  Take it or leave it, makes no difference to me until it doesn't get done right.
  Now for a little bit of the research I suggested earlier:  NR, and by extension NRRO, are part of DOE, now the NNSA (National Nuclear Security Agency).  However, having only been on this side of the house, I can't speak to migration issues.  I'm sure there must be someone here who has worked both sides of the house that can talk to that.  Part of it is obviously the chicken and egg question.
  Just because there must be separation of church and state, doesn't mean we can't engage in conversation and discussion.  Probably not going to go have a beer together after work, but if we each respect the other's position, it'll all work out fine.  Case in point, my fishing buddy prior to commissioning was the Plant Leading MLPO.  He rendered my first salute.  We still fished together, but at work, it was Mr. and Chief.  And that's OK, as long as my boss was aware of the situation and I was capable of recusing myself if necessary.
  Lastly, appreciate the sentiment and level-headed discussion.
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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #310 on: Sep 11, 2008, 11:16 »
Best NRRO attitude I ever saw went something like this...

NRRO:  Request permission to enter EOS.

SRO: (Still staring at panel and PMP) State reason.

NRRO:  Naval Reactors Regional Office observation.

SRO:  Enter

NRRO:  (Walking over to Throttleman Panel)  I don't believe I've met you before. 

SRO:  (Turning head to look)  No sir, you don't look familiar to me either.  (Turns head back to RPCP)

NRRO:  (Removes hard hat, which has bold "NRRO" lettering on front, and places it and clipboard on Throttleman Log table.)  Say, did you see the Superbowl last night?

SRO:  (Still looking at RPCP and PMP)  No, had to take wife out for anniversary.

NRRO:  You didn't miss much.  (Reaches for hard hat and slowly places it on head) 

SRO:  I saw the highllights.

NRRO:  SRO, may I see your logs, please.

SRO:  Let me make an entry first, "NRRO enters to tour and observe."

The above has nothing to do with any real  or imagined person(s).  Moreover, any referenced biped(s) simulating real or imagined persons--with a pulse or not--is coincidental, as far as you know.

JustinHEMI05

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #311 on: Sep 11, 2008, 08:17 »
Best NRRO attitude I ever saw went something like this...

NRRO:  Request permission to enter EOS.

SRO: (Still staring at panel and PMP) State reason.

NRRO:  Naval Reactors Regional Office observation.

SRO:  Enter

NRRO:  (Walking over to Throttleman Panel)  I don't believe I've met you before. 

SRO:  (Turning head to look)  No sir, you don't look familiar to me either.  (Turns head back to RPCP)

NRRO:  (Removes hard hat, which has bold "NRRO" lettering on front, and places it and clipboard on Throttleman Log table.)  Say, did you see the Superbowl last night?

SRO:  (Still looking at RPCP and PMP)  No, had to take wife out for anniversary.

NRRO:  You didn't miss much.  (Reaches for hard hat and slowly places it on head) 

SRO:  I saw the highllights.

NRRO:  SRO, may I see your logs, please.

SRO:  Let me make an entry first, "NRRO enters to tour and observe."



I refer you back to post 52 of this thread for my illustration of the worst NRRO attitude. :)

Justin

Offline deltarho

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #312 on: Sep 12, 2008, 05:27 »
I refer you back to post 52 of this thread for my illustration of the worst NRRO attitude. :)

Justin

I think the take-away here was that he made a B-I-G production regarding the doffing of his puddin'-head cover (I never, ever expected to use that word in the civilian world (doffing, that is).  Once he was done conjobbling, he did a reprise to his Emmy-winning performance and donned his bump cap.
« Last Edit: Sep 13, 2008, 08:11 by deltarho »
The above has nothing to do with any real  or imagined person(s).  Moreover, any referenced biped(s) simulating real or imagined persons--with a pulse or not--is coincidental, as far as you know.

withroaj

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #313 on: Sep 12, 2008, 06:11 »
Not to brown-nose too hard here, but I figured it out.  How to fix the NNPP:  Put folks like (maybe including) G-reg, Gamecock and NukeLDO in charge.  Problem solved.

What do you think, G-reg?  You know, John Elway "retired" before his second Super Bowl championship.

On a serious note, I really do enjoy reading what you gents have to say on this or any other matter.  Great insights from all angles of the game, entertaining to read, and an invaluable lesson to any person looking to take a leadership position in this or any other field.  I greatly appreciate it.  Thank you.

Offline G-reg

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #314 on: Sep 13, 2008, 05:03 »
Sadly, I pulled all of my transcripts & training records, and all I'm qualified for is Armchair Quarterback in this case...  :)

I know that the NNPP (like everyone else) is trying to do more with less $$$, but I think that the pendulum has swung way too far in this case.  I've beat this drum before, but I miss the hyper-inflated military budgets of the Reagan era.  Back then, the NNPP had enough money to throw around that they could cut people from the program (both during and after the pipeline) when they couldn't or wouldn't measure up to the program's ideals.

So then: if I were in charge, in the absence of sufficient Congressional spending for the NNPP, the first course of action would be mandatory NNPP bake sales to raise money and increase our funding as step 1 of the get-well program.

(In other words, be careful what you wish for...)   ;)  ;D
« Last Edit: Sep 13, 2008, 05:04 by G-reg »
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Offline arduousartifice

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #315 on: Sep 13, 2008, 07:34 »
So then: if I were in charge, in the absence of sufficient Congressional spending for the NNPP, the first course of action would be mandatory NNPP bake sales to raise money and increase our funding as step 1 of the get-well program.

(In other words, be careful what you wish for...)   ;)  ;D

Can we wear pink aprons that say kiss the cook?  ;D
And have you considered the merits of an NNPP bikini carwash.  Imagine how much money we'd get paid for putting our clothes back on.  ;)
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Offline 93-383

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #316 on: Sep 13, 2008, 10:52 »
Sadly, I pulled all of my transcripts & training records, and all I'm qualified for is Armchair Quarterback in this case...  :)

I know that the NNPP (like everyone else) is trying to do more with less $$$, but I think that the pendulum has swung way too far in this case.  I've beat this drum before, but I miss the hyper-inflated military budgets of the Reagan era.  Back then, the NNPP had enough money to throw around that they could cut people from the program (both during and after the pipeline) when they couldn't or wouldn't measure up to the program's ideals.

So then: if I were in charge, in the absence of sufficient Congressional spending for the NNPP, the first course of action would be mandatory NNPP bake sales to raise money and increase our funding as step 1 of the get-well program.

(In other words, be careful what you wish for...)   ;)  ;D

I kind of disagree. The problem isn't money, USN is throwing all the money they can at the program but people won't stay. Non-nukes think I am crazy for not taking the 90k offered for re-up but I can safely say it's not worth it. Not because we can make more money out side, I know several people who took pay cuts and still make less than they would have in the Navy (non-nuclear jobs), but because the program does not treat its people well.  I don't think I need to elaborate on that matter since this thread is full of cases where people where treated worse than farm animals. It would not be a problem if this was the exception but it is the standard.
« Last Edit: Sep 14, 2008, 09:07 by 93-383 »

PapaBear765

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #317 on: Sep 14, 2008, 07:26 »
Can we wear pink aprons that say kiss the cook?  ;D
And have you considered the merits of an NNPP bikini carwash.  Imagine how much money we'd get paid for putting our clothes back on.  ;)

Who did you have in mind to wear the bikinis?  Don't know about you, but my first thought wasn't my fellow submariners; although they wouldn't let wild horses keep them from strapping some on.  :)

dan11

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #318 on: Oct 05, 2008, 04:55 »
Dang what happened to the uniforms!!! I was really looking forward to wearing them summer whites  :D

Jus Me

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #319 on: Oct 08, 2008, 09:25 »
A question? Maybe a comment. How about not demorilizing those that make a "No Harm-No Foul" mistake during their time at NNPTC!

Yup, the kid needs a boot in the butt for what he did. No excuses. It does seem to be a related charge to most of the masts under the current command.

He was consideirng following the path of his "Mixed" family, Seafarers, Enlisted and Commissioned going back to the days of tall ships. But it seems that a "he said - she said" incident involving a minor NP student and alchohol (non-sexual non-contact) might change that into a FTN attitude. There is less than 1/2% of all Navy who can honestly say they are inoccent of same charge.

When I was active duty we worked hard and played hard. Sometimes outside of the rules on liberty, elisted and officers alike. We got the job done and in a safe manner. When you were out of line we took it up on a peer or first supervisor level first, we pushed it up if the situation became detrimental to indiviudal, crew or beyond.

You might want to call me a dinasour but my peers of that day, still active, are now Command Master Chiefs.

I'll stop for now to see some discussiuons be for I over illlunimate!

Who hasn't given your noob a beer!





Offline HydroDave63

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #320 on: Oct 09, 2008, 12:32 »
There is less than 1/2% of all Navy who can honestly say they are inoccent of same charge.

Who hasn't given your noob a beer!

Maybe on your boat.

It's the slackitude that you are promoting, that helped get the program to where it is today  >:(

Jus Me

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #321 on: Oct 09, 2008, 11:43 »
HydroDave, good for you. You are of the 1/2% in the Navy's history.

Punitive action is necessary. The question for leadership is, how much action is beneficial without being detrimental to the command and or the sailor?

Is the command finding that balance?

Are the needs of the Navy being met through NNPTC?

Jus Me

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #322 on: Oct 09, 2008, 02:35 »
Just a note on statistics, I have no idea what the true percentage is of us that have or have not given an under age sailor a drink after hours.
I was hoping to see some discussion on appropriate NJP for the offence.

Why the negative Karma? How does that work?

Offline 93-383

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #323 on: Oct 09, 2008, 04:23 »
Just a note on statistics, I have no idea what the true percentage is of us that have or have not given an under age sailor a drink after hours.
I was hoping to see some discussion on appropriate NJP for the offence.

Why the negative Karma? How does that work?

While I have never given an underage sailor a drink, however when I was underage I did drink a couple of times.

I do agree that the punishment for underage drinking is too harsh. Story time

One night during prototype my crew (students only) had a little end of swings party. Alcohol was consumed by most of the attendees most of which where underage. Alcohol and youthful stupidity lead to impromptu wrestling matches in the front yard (Greco-roman not the WWF BS) the last of said matches resulted in one of the participants breaking his ankle (knee pointed in the air and foot parallel to the ground. He was drunk and underage so he would not go to the hospital until the alcohol was out of his system. Instead he insisted that several people carried him from the law to his apartment room about a block away. We could only carry him for a short distance at a time since due to the pain. Ultimately he was taken to his apartment the alcohol wore off and he went to the ER.

If he had gone straight to the ER he would have been treated and faced much less risk than he put himself in. However he would have been written up and sent to mast as well as every attendee of that party.

We all did the wrong thing that night and we all did it out of fear of captain’s mast and possible removal from the program. I don't know what the appropriate punishment for underage drinking should be, but I have seen the foolish and dangerous lengths that sailors will go to avoid the current "award"


Offline HydroDave63

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Re: How would you fix the NNPP
« Reply #324 on: Oct 09, 2008, 05:19 »

I do agree that the punishment for underage drinking is too harsh. Story time

How many DUI-induced fatalities would it take to change your mind on that?

It's also an integrity issue, if you'll willfully break the law on drinking, ya might just think radioing chem sampling or blazing off PMs is minor and silly as well.....

 


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