How would you fix the NNPP

[JustinHEMI05]

I have to side with Dave on this. I don't care what anecdotal evidence to the contrary there is, the law is the law. I don't care about arguments like "they are old enough to die.." The law is the law. If you break it, you must pay. When it involves alcohol, I don't think the punishment could ever be too harsh. Especially if it involves drinking and driving or other stupid things that occur when drunk. Sailors drinking underage should be busted down and money taken away. Suppliers should get worse. IMHO.

Justin

[JustinHEMI05]

Just a note on statistics, I have no idea what the true percentage is of us that have or have not given an under age sailor a drink after hours.
I was hoping to see some discussion on appropriate NJP for the offence.

Why the negative Karma? How does that work?

It usually means that you have offended and/or angered someone with something you said. In this case, probably your condoning supplying alcohol to under age people. I know that is why I gave you . Most of us though, are very generous with and stingy with , saving it for special occasions.

Justin

[nathaneltrct]

     This is only the second time I have felt the need to interject on nukeworker. I would like anyone that thinks that underage drunk driving punishment is too severe to talk to any mother or father that has lost a child or any child that has lost a parent to a drunken driver. I'm sorry if certain personnel's limited life experiences leads them to believe that it's okay to drink and drive, but here are the stats from 2006
     In 2006, there were 13,470 fatalities in crashes involving an alcohol-impaired driver (BAC of .08 or higher) – 32 percent of total traffic fatalities for the year (which equates to 1.54 deaths per hour) .  In 2006, more than 8,200 (55%) of the drivers involved in fatal crashes who had been drinking had a BAC of .15 or greater. This is just a snippet of available data on-line. I also probably will get some negative karma for this but here goes: Someone that doesn't value human life enough to realize the punishments are severe probably will just continue drinking when they are of age, thereby furthering the cause of Darwin by taking themselves and hopefully not others out of the equation, I can only hope its the former. I bet some more "seasoned" individuals know/knew at least one person who has been injured or killed by a D.D. Sorry for the rant but the offending post set me off.
     There is no room for drunken driving on roads I pay taxes for. Do it in your own hovel. thanks.

[93-383]

How many DUI-induced fatalities would it take to change your mind on that?

It's also an integrity issue, if you'll willfully break the law on drinking, ya might just think radioing chem sampling or blazing off PMs is minor and silly as well.....

The issue at bar here is underage drinking not DUI

DUI and underage drinking are two completely different cases however both are "awarded" the same, max allowable under UCMJ

I'm not defending DUI I won't.

[deltarho]

Speaking about integrity issues...

I want to go on the record to say that doing an EDPO long tour on a crusier stinks!  I cannot imagine having to do it on a carrier...

I actually had an Electrical Officer call one of the AC spaces to see if anyone would answer.  He had the IC types rig it so that it would continuously ring and call his stateroom if anyone answered.  Word is that the first 'no-call' violation was a freebie.  I believe the first no-call was a wake up call to everyone, after we heard from one guy who failed his wakeup call, it was never heard of again--catch my drift.  I by the way was on a different rotation than he was...

[withroaj]

I thought the topic here was underage drinking.  I've seen a DUI in the Navy punished by removing a person's frocking to first class.  That means the guy had to wait until he was paid to wear first class.  Not busted down, no fine, no restriction; just had his frocking witheld.  I've seen a guy get a DUI and only have to face the fact that he'd never screen for command.  Another DUI just got swept under the carpet because the guy was a good worker.

I've seen a few kids who planned to get wasted, act retarded and pass out in a hotel room (or get a cab back to the barracks) without driving get hammered, and even get kicked out of the Navy.  I don't advocate their behavior or their plans, but I don't think they should face harsher penalties without DUI than those of legal drinking age who get behind the wheel under the influence.

Strongly enforcing the drinking age is an important way to maintain order at NNPTC nowadays.  A lot of young guys and gals under stress from their newly-found military lifestyle and the brisk pace of the training pipeline could/would make some terrible decisions if you throw some alkeyhol in their systems.  The UCMJ allows Commanding Officers to make examples of those that stray, which is a great way to remind the student body that the charming NNPTC campus is still a military training facility. 

If a kid gets all poopy-pants about going to mast and decides to piss away his/her Navy contract, so be it.  It can just as well act as a "special calibration" for wayward children.  Besides, NJP is one of the only ways the pipeline is a filter anymore. 

Get busted down in power school and you will still get to your first boat wearing a crow if you admit you screwed up and work through the problem.  Oh, man.  I'm ranting again.

[arduousartifice]

The law is the law. If you break it, you must pay. When it involves alcohol, I don't think the punishment could ever be too harsh.

I quite agree.  The law is in fact law, that's why its called law, and I agree that there must be consequences for breaking the law, though I would be careful about making statements about no punishment too harsh.  That sort of mindset is dangerous.  Underage drinking is such a common infraction, and by far and away the majority of underage drinkers never get injured, never hurt anyone else, that the punishment in the civilian world is much less than that for DUI with good reason.

See, the thing about no punishment too harsh is that you are saying it about this one instance of illegal activity.  But what about all the other illegal activities.  Do you ever speed?  Or roll through a stop sign?  Or gun it to make it through a yellow light?  All of those are illegal, but I don't see anyone lining up to hand out the maximum sentence for any of those.  The thing is, drinking is a choice, just like breaking traffic laws is a choice.  Why must one choice be punished so much more severely than another if no one suffered any harm from it?  Maybe the key is better enforcement of the law.  If no one gets away with illegal activities, then no one will want to partake in them.  But then you have to consider what your society would be, and the answer is not what you want, I guarantee it.

Perhaps the real issue is not actually nineteen or twenty year olds consuming alcohol.  Perhaps the real issue is the society we live in that fosters irresponsibility and immaturity.  Maybe instead of continuously fighting the symptoms of the disease like they were the disease itself, we should try to cure the actual disease.  And that discussion is something that exceeds the scope of this particular forum.

One last thought.  If freedom is the ability to choose what you will do, even if its wrong, and justice is the punishment if you choose to do wrong, and perfect justice catches or prevents all wrongdoing, then if you can no longer choose to do wrong without facing punishment, are you still free?

[withroaj]

Andrew, your style of delivery belongs in the Gold Member: Polysci section. Go gold

[Jus Me]

I know that is why I gave you . Most of us though, are very generous with and stingy with , saving it for special occasions.
Justin

I was not trying to be "Special" nor was I condoning underage drinking or supply. Certainly not DUI.

In the 80's we had a different substance abuse issue so having a beer with your crew didn't seem like a big thing. Come to think of it, the club served 18 and above at my last duty station.  I guess I am a dinosaur!

I'm glad to see the discussion progress, thanks for your input but not the (-) Karma! I won't reciprocate.

I agree with owning your mistakes, learing from them and then busting butt to be a greater asset.

I'll hope for the right balance of "Award" that allows for and reinforces the previous statement.

Jus Me.





 

[Jus Me]

Here you Go!

[JustinHEMI05]

I quite agree.  The law is in fact law, that's why its called law, and I agree that there must be consequences for breaking the law, though I would be careful about making statements about no punishment too harsh.  That sort of mindset is dangerous.  Underage drinking is such a common infraction, and by far and away the majority of underage drinkers never get injured, never hurt anyone else, that the punishment in the civilian world is much less than that for DUI with good reason.

See, the thing about no punishment too harsh is that you are saying it about this one instance of illegal activity.  But what about all the other illegal activities.  Do you ever speed?  Or roll through a stop sign?  Or gun it to make it through a yellow light?  All of those are illegal, but I don't see anyone lining up to hand out the maximum sentence for any of those.  The thing is, drinking is a choice, just like breaking traffic laws is a choice.  Why must one choice be punished so much more severely than another if no one suffered any harm from it?  Maybe the key is better enforcement of the law.  If no one gets away with illegal activities, then no one will want to partake in them.  But then you have to consider what your society would be, and the answer is not what you want, I guarantee it.

Perhaps the real issue is not actually nineteen or twenty year olds consuming alcohol.  Perhaps the real issue is the society we live in that fosters irresponsibility and immaturity.  Maybe instead of continuously fighting the symptoms of the disease like they were the disease itself, we should try to cure the actual disease.  And that discussion is something that exceeds the scope of this particular forum.

One last thought.  If freedom is the ability to choose what will you do, even if its wrong, and justice is the punishment if you choose to do wrong, and perfect justice catches or prevents all wrongdoing, then if you can no longer choose to do wrong without facing punishment, are you still free?

I respectfully disagree. Drinking under age is in no way similar to speeding or the other traffic infractions or any other minor infraction you can think of. It is not a minor infraction, IMHO.

Freedom isn't really freedom when limits are imposed. Therefore, just as the law is the law, freedom has limits. Therefore no, you are not ever truly free. It is a figment of your imagination.

Also, I am sorry if it seemed I suggested underage drinking and DUI should have the same harsh punishments. In fact, it looks like I did just that. I didn't mean it that way. What I mean is that a sailor who under age drinks should get rank and pay taken away. A sailor that DUIs should go to prison. But I guess that is kind of beyond NJP. In that case, then yes, under age drinkers should get the max under NJP.

Justin

[arduousartifice]

I respectfully disagree. Drinking under age is in no way similar to speeding or the other traffic infractions or any other minor infraction you can think of. It is not a minor infraction, IMHO.

The problem with treating underage drinking as a major infraction is enforcement.  How do you enforce the law on something so common without government and law enforcement intruding into our lives even more than they already do (Civilian world)?  In the military, same question, but substitute commands and security/base police?  And then, how much more enforcement are you willing to pay for?  Is the enforcement worth the cost?

Freedom isn't really freedom when limits are imposed. Therefore, just as the law is the law, freedom has limits. Therefore no, you are not ever truly free. It is a figment of your imagination.

I agree, true, absolute freedom would actually be scary.  I accept that my freedoms must be limited, it is necessary for society to exist; even anarchists accept certain limitations of their freedoms in their theories.  However, limited freedom does not make freedom a figment of my imagination, though a large central government teetering on the brink of socialism certainly might.

I certainly did not want to provoke a statement like freedom is a figment of your imagination, that scares me just as much as a blanket no punishment too harsh statement.  If freedom is just a figment of my imagination, I guess it won't really matter if that figment vanishes, since it wasn't real anyways.  What a convenient and frightening next logical step.  Freedom may not be tangible, I can't hold freedom in my hand, but that does not make it any less real.  When freedom is relegated only to the imagination, what a sad, sad day that will be.

It's also an integrity issue, if you'll willfully break the law on drinking, ya might just think radioing chem sampling or blazing off PMs is minor and silly as well.....

If I casually disregard the speed limit...  Or is that different, and if so, how?

[HydroDave63]

If I casually disregard the speed limit...  Or is that different, and if so, how?

55 in a 45 on a county road, vs. inoperable 4kV bus from PK blocks left off during gundecked maintenance, recovering from a hangover (see original topic). It's about having one's head in the game...

[PapaBear765]

55 in a 45 on a county road, vs. inoperable 4kV bus from PK blocks left off during gundecked maintenance, recovering from a hangover (see original topic). It's about having one's head in the game...

What about 35 in a 25?  What if that 25 is one of the thousands of streets in modern construction in which the roads are the county minimum code of 50 ft wide?  It's residential, so there's children at play and pets around.  Sure 55 in a 45 on a country road...hell 75 on that county road isn't a problem.  It's all about context.

Similarly, a guy on board a ship with a hangover who isn't assigned any maintenance who can go hide out in berthing until he sobers isn't a problem. 

This is pointless arguing over whether speeding or underage drinking is worse than the other.  All of us can make up a scenario that supports our argument.  You know what that tells me?  That underage drinking, in and of itself, is harmless.  Drinking is harmless.  It's not like having a minimum age has been some winning piece of evidence for the claim that adults are more responsible.  It's like arguing over whether prior enlisted make better officers or not.

[deltarho]

PapaBear 765,

Your avatar scares me.  It always has wierded me out...

[mlslstephens]

PapaBear 765,

Your avatar scares me.  It always has wierded me out...

Avatar, that ain't no avatar...that's his drivers license photo   

Sorry PB, I just couldn't help myself.  Hope all is well in GC.


Note to Moderator: please don't delete this for being off topic because in all actuality, it is impossible to be on topic because there really is no way to fix the NNPP.   

[mlslstephens]

Here you Go!

Welcome to the Gold side.  K to ya for seeing the call by GC.

I thought the topic here was underage drinking. 

I couldn't help but chuckle at your opening line...actually the topic is how to fix the NNPP.  But don't worry know one actually cares about being off topic.  This topic is so old, even the Moderator forgot what the topic was...

I find myself agreeing with you more and more every single day.

You can't anyway....you have to be a Goldmember to effect someone's Karma.

Oh well, GC, my humblest apology.  I hope not to offend.  K to ya for understanding.

Heck, K to all of you.  I'm in a great mood.

[retired nuke]

One last thought.  If freedom is the ability to choose what will you do, even if its wrong, and justice is the punishment if you choose to do wrong, and perfect justice catches or prevents all wrongdoing, then if you can no longer choose to do wrong without facing punishment, are you still free?

Wow, that's deep.....

makes my freakin head hurt deep.....

[withroaj]

I thought WE were about to fix the NNPP with this thread! 

Are you fellers saying this was just a healthy place to vent with no tangible results or punishment?  I quit!

[withroaj]

it's all right here;

You can't go!!!,....all the plants are gonna die!!

(karma if you can source that movie quote,...no googling)

Would that be Idiocracy ?

[PapaBear765]

I think if you combine the predictions of "Idiocracy" and "Wall-E" you'll get an accurate depiction of the future.

[Jus Me]

Welcome to the Gold side.  K to ya for seeing the call by GC.

A little slow on my part, but, thanks NaVLI4, now I get to jump in the GM PolySci stuff too!

Now, thar be som deep thinkin!
Seriously, and funny too.

I thought WE were about to fix the NNPP with this thread! 

Are you fellers saying this was just a healthy place to vent with no tangible results or punishment?  I quit!

... for those still in it, venting, with (you) the community providing positive reinforcement or a kick in the butt when needed, can help to make it better without any official action...

Jus a theory.

Jus Me

[HydroDave63]

PapaBear 765,

Your avatar scares me.  It always has wierded me out...

Actually, it's an unfair slam on Khalid Sheik-Mohamed, he's not nearly as far loonie left as Rosie, and at least he believes there IS a god (just picked the wrong one is all).

[DDMurray]

Just a note on statistics, I have no idea what the true percentage is of us that have or have not given an under age sailor a drink after hours.
I was hoping to see some discussion on appropriate NJP for the offence.

Why the negative Karma? How does that work?

Just another note on statistics - 80% of all statistics are made up. 

DM

[Gamecock]

Just another note on statistics - 80% of all statistics are made up. 

DM

I always thought it was 90%

Anyway, Benjamin Disraeli said there are three types of lies, "Lies, Damn Lies,...and Statistics."