Contesting EVALS?

[Cycoticpenguin]

Can it be done? I recently recieved an EP from my ship, which I wasnt expecting. I was thrilled with that one. Next day, I FINALLY (after SIX months!!!!!!) get my prototype eval. It was completely blazed off. I was a student LPO, first to qualify after shutdown, and had superior performance in all categories, and I didnt get recognized for it. Why? Because some random master chief I've never even heard of decided to just put the "standard 3's down the line" and gave me a crappy eval. Can I submit a brag sheet, AFTER the fact? I know it sounds like im being knit-picky or crass here, but its my career, and I care about it!

[Smooth Operator]

Don't sweat it. P-type evals don't mean anything. Hell, E-4 evals don't matter either as long as you are P or better. I am sure others can expound on it.

[JustinHEMI05]

No one cares... except you.

Also, how many people were you rated against for the EP?

Justin

[Preciousblue1965]

All Student evals are cookie cutter.  The only exception is SOMETIMES(key word, tricky phrase) they will actually check a higher box for those who graduate with higher GPAs or have leadership positions(I know you did all this, but the command just didn't do it this time, hence "sometimes").  Your evals only matter when you are actually on the ship and are being compared to other people.  So you can get an EP, but if you are being compared to just yourself, well you better get an EP(A bad sign is getting a Promotable on a transfer eval).  So in a nutshell, there is really no reason to try to go back on those evals unless you want to raise a huge stink about it.  More than likely you would only annoy a lot of people if you did, and thus make people not like you as much.

[JustinHEMI05]

All Student evals are cookie cutter.  The only exception is SOMETIMES(key word, tricky phrase) they will actually check a higher box for those who graduate with higher GPAs or have leadership positions(I know you did all this, but the command just didn't do it this time, hence "sometimes").  Your evals only matter when you are actually on the ship and are being compared to other people.  So you can get an EP, but if you are being compared to just yourself, well you better get an EP(A bad sign is getting a Promotable on a transfer eval).  So in a nutshell, there is really no reason to try to go back on those evals unless you want to raise a huge stink about it.  More than likely you would only annoy a lot of people if you did, and thus make people not like you as much.

That is what I was thinking. He is probably being rated against himself being a new guy not tied to a division. Or, he is being rated against others on hold or in the area he is working now. He hasn't done anything to earn an EP in nuke world, unless his ship in the habit of giving EPs to new guys who haven't done anything... which I doubt.

Justin

[Cycoticpenguin]

No one cares... except you.

Also, how many people were you rated against for the EP?

Justin

22 students, 3 "staff". I was the only student, and one of 2 ep's in the division. guess they just "gave it to me" for no reason, right?

 not to be a douche bag here, but you really have no clue what the hell you are talking about. I didnt get a "student" eval, I earned my EP fair and square, and it applies to my division on the ship right now.... not sure why you guys are cracking down on me so hard.


Everyone -> I should have elaborated more about my eval. I recieved an eval that was filled out incorrectly (according to my Yoeman and career counselor, not me), and it was also filled out by people I had never heard of before. I was under the impression that your LPO or LCPO was the one that did the filling out.  It was also filled out 5 months AFTER graduating prototype, thats more or less why I feel mine was unfair. If my TC thought I was a P sailor, then thats fine, but I was annoyed to see random people fill it out.

[HydroDave63]

 not to be a douche bag here, but you really have no clue what the hell you are talking about. I didnt get a "student" eval, I earned my EP fair and square, and it applies to my division on the ship right now.... not sure why you guys are cracking down on me so hard.

Most likely due to disrespecting posters that have take the time to answer your posts, perhaps not what you want to hear...

[thenukeman]

Life is not fair.  You may have  had a ignorant rater, or one that did not care or disliked you for some reason.  The higher ups rate you mostly on that rating.  A school rating is not worth it in my Opinion to contest.  I got a low rating for not wanting to be supply officer until I seen everything I was signing for.  I was warned by First Sargeant that the Captain was short some items and he did not properly hand receipt them.  He was going to have me sign for everything.  I told the Captain I would sign for everything. He got mad  because he said it would take to long to sign for everything in the company.   Well needless to say he decided against me being supply officer. He left and I got a bad Eval. I contested it.  I was basically slammed for being a disloyal officer and scum. It cost him about 3000 dollars to pay for the missing items.

So unless it is  something really awful, do not contest it.  What you do aboard ship will count most.  You may run into a dirtball rater.  Thats life,  But in this case it seems to be a routine eval.

[DDMurray]

22 students, 3 "staff". I was the only student, and one of 2 ep's in the division. guess they just "gave it to me" for no reason, right?

 not to be a douche bag here, but you really have no clue what the hell you are talking about. I didnt get a "student" eval, I earned my EP fair and square, and it applies to my division on the ship right now.... not sure why you guys are cracking down on me so hard.


Everyone -> I should have elaborated more about my eval. I recieved an eval that was filled out incorrectly (according to my Yoeman and career counselor, not me), and it was also filled out by people I had never heard of before. I was under the impression that your LPO or LCPO was the one that did the filling out.  It was also filled out 5 months AFTER graduating prototype, thats more or less why I feel mine was unfair. If my TC thought I was a P sailor, then thats fine, but I was annoyed to see random people fill it out.

1. Why did you get your eval 5 months after graduating?  Were you on hold?
2. How many people in your reporting group?
3.  What were the number of EP, MP, P, < P?
4.  How could there be students and staff in the same reporting group?
5.  What was wrong with your eval?  You can read the instruction and figure what was wrong without a YN.
6. Did anyone you know (or recognize from the plant) sign your eval?  Maybe the LCC?

Years ago, I was the second person to qualify in my plant, ranked 3 out of 19 in GPA.  Put more hours in on alternate shifts than anyone so I could qualify.  I was slated to be a SPU until NR cancelled all EM SPU from our class.  I was straght 3.6 with a couple of 3.8.  (i.e. the equivalent of being a P).  My first eval on my first boat was almost straight 3.6 despite being a hot-runner on quals.  I survived these (and a P as a CPO) to make MCPO.  I've also submitted a statement on eval that was filled out wrong.  When I submitted the letter to my COC they wrote a letter to BUPERS to fix the mistakes so I never officially sent my letter.  Good luck, but in the end you will not likely have any luck getting your marks changed.

[Cycoticpenguin]

1. Why did you get your eval 5 months after graduating?  Were you on hold?
2. How many people in your reporting group?
3.  What were the number of EP, MP, P, < P?
4.  How could there be students and staff in the same reporting group?
5.  What was wrong with your eval?  You can read the instruction and figure what was wrong without a YN.
6. Did anyone you know (or recognize from the plant) sign your eval?  Maybe the LCC?

Years ago, I was the second person to qualify in my plant, ranked 3 out of 19 in GPA.  Put more hours in on alternate shifts than anyone so I could qualify.  I was slated to be a SPU until NR cancelled all EM SPU from our class.  I was straght 3.6 with a couple of 3.8.  (i.e. the equivalent of being a P).  My first eval on my first boat was almost straight 3.6 despite being a hot-runner on quals.  I survived these (and a P as a CPO) to make MCPO.  I've also submitted a statement on eval that was filled out wrong.  When I submitted the letter to my COC they wrote a letter to BUPERS to fix the mistakes so I never officially sent my letter.  Good luck, but in the end you will not likely have any luck getting your marks changed.

thank you for the first reasonable response to my question

Just to clarify, I recieved a "P" from prototype, and an "EP" eval on the ship, not going to contest an EP .

To answer
1) I was NOT on any kind of hold from prototype. I merely didnt get an EVAL (First problem). I sent countless requests, and my master chief at the time had to call them up and basically demand it immediately.
2) Just me to the ship
3) from the prototype eval, 3 people recieved EP's, 18 recieved MP's, rest recieved P's. Thats why Im a little upset about mine being blazed off.
4) On the ship, "staff" and "Students" in RT division were grouped together. I was the only student to recieve an EP, and the other one was a staff member
5) It just wasnt filled out properly. I recieved NOB's in blocks that should have had remarks, it was filled 4 months AFTER seperation of the command, and it was filled out by people not even related to my CoC

I think you more or less understand whats going on, and your story is "comforting" I guess. Annoying, but I guess I will just eat it.

Thenukeman -> I was rated by someone who didnt even know me... 4 months after seperating from the command. Tell me everything is right here...

Hydrodave -> who have I disrespected? I was annoyed with Justin's comments about how I didnt earn my EP, why shouldnt I? I believe this post is confusing people, thats all.

[HydroDave63]

Hydrodave -> who have I disrespected?

Arguing with experienced nukes with steaming time since, oh, February 2007 who try to give advice based on real experience.

http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,10250.msg54228.html#msg54228

[Cycoticpenguin]

Arguing with experienced nukes with steaming time since, oh, February 2007 who try to give advice based on real experience.

http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,10250.msg54228.html#msg54228

I never argued with anyone in the post, and it's also over a year old sir. I have aged considerably since then. I would consider myself childish and dumb back then.

That said, I apologize if you guys feel like im disrespecting you. Im just annoyed with the shitty situations the Navy has put me in, and I'm getting really tired with it. My chain of command is useless, or unwilling to help, so thats why I come to you guys. You have helped me before, and Im extremely grateful for it. You guys have (unfortunately) been my best resource for help and answers.   Trust me, I know my place right now. Im also aware of the "life isnt fair" adage, but to have a master chief do your eval incorrectly 4 months after seperation is a bit ridiculous. Im not fishing for a good eval, Im fishing for an accurate evaluation of my performance. If I was a "P" sailor, then by all means, thats fine.

[HydroDave63]

I never argued with anyone in the post, and it's also over a year old sir. I have aged considerably since then. I would consider myself childish and dumb back then.

That said, I apologize if you guys feel like im disrespecting you. Im just annoyed with the shitty situations the Navy has put me in, and I'm getting really tired with it. My chain of command is useless, or unwilling to help, so thats why I come to you guys. You have helped me before, and Im extremely grateful for it. You guys have (unfortunately) been my best resource for help and answers.   Trust me, I know my place right now. Im also aware of the "life isnt fair" adage, but to have a master chief do your eval incorrectly 4 months after seperation is a bit ridiculous. Im not fishing for a good eval, Im fishing for an accurate evaluation of my performance. If I was a "P" sailor, then by all means, thats fine.

Derek's reply #8 prolly said it best. Since the chance of getting the Evals fixed is low, let's focus on your success post-Nav, coming out here to join us in the electric power industry!

Karma to ya for giving it a second reading....

[Cycoticpenguin]

Derek's reply #8 prolly said it best. Since the chance of getting the Evals fixed is low, let's focus on your success post-Nav, coming out here to join us in the electric power industry!

Karma to ya for giving it a second reading....

Thats fair enough

Unfortunately the Nav has dug its claws pretty deep into me right now   Im so lost its not even funny

[Smooth Operator]

OK, I am confused now...you were gung-ho, then had the hold fiasco, wanted to stay, your command requested a waiver, now you are staying in, but now you are lost?

Explain.


And the eval thing, don't sweat it. E-4 evals get purged from your service record anyways. They are nice to read if you got a good one, but don't have any teeth.

[Cycoticpenguin]

OK, I am confused now...you were gung-ho, then had the hold fiasco, wanted to stay, your command requested a waiver, now you are staying in, but now you are lost?

Explain.

And the eval thing, don't sweat it. E-4 evals get purged from your service record anyways. They are nice to read if you got a good one, but don't have any teeth.

They set me up for failure pretty much. I was going strong, doing well onboard. they said I wouldnt get my tld for a while, but I didnt sweat it at the time. So then about a month ago, I started to get tired of waiting and doing nothing. I havent studied in a good 4 months now, my knowledge is toast, and I'm doing nothing but cleaning toilets. So then my rad health officer takes me into his office and sits me down. He goes "I understand your predicament, therefore, Im willing to help you do what ever you want". I spent a couple days thinking, talking to khaki, and most importantly my family. I decided, hey, lets just cut my losses and get out. The DAY, the very DAY I go in to decide and start my paperwork, the SMO found some obscure peice of paper, and is "pushing my waiver" through with that, and I am unable to get out now.

so you may ask "well isnt this what you wanted?"... short answer, yes. I absolutely love my job. I love standing watch, operating the plant. Many dont, but I get a huge high in operating a nuclear reactor plant. However, do you ever watch sailors cleaning toilets on those TV specials? The ones that screwed up, and just blasphemy the navy?  well Im stuck cleaning toilets all day, and I didnt even do anything wrong! Whats worse, I get my ass chewed by freaking MASTER chiefs or HIGHER EVERY SINGLE DAY! I will get the heads spotless, and berthing spotless, and go sit down somewhere, and get my butt chewed for "Doing nothing", OR my favorite, a watch section will change, and the guys just off watch come and sleep, and leave there boots on the ground... guess what happens to me when some high up khaki walks through.

Its depressing, its old, Im extremely annoyed. I dont even want to go to work anymore. I dont want a pity party, i just want you guys to understand, that its not all fun and games.

[LDO4CNO]

I don't even want to go to work anymore. I don't want a pity party, i just want you guys to understand, that its not all fun and games.

Shipmate, you are celebrating your own pity party.  You get a lot of good advice on these boards, and spend most of your time contesting it.  I know Khaki at you last command, and at your current one.  Both are reasonable commands.  It seems a lot of people have tried to help you, yet you spend more time finding fault than understanding.  For a young nuke that earned obtained an EP you sure spend a lot of time disrespecting the very chain of command that rewarded you with one.  Your ship and your department are going through some hard times right now.  All involved need to pull their weight.  If that means cleaning latrines then so be it.  You underestimate your audience if you think all of these prior Navy (God bless 'em) nuke's didn't have their share of bad mid watches, early morning startups, field days, head duties, and ORSE preps.  Get used to it.  It is a tough job.   Man UP!

 

[Smooth Operator]

I agree, we have all had bad experiences in the Navy. No one likes cleaning, mindless work, etc. And the grass is always greener.

If you man-up and except your predicamate as a "sh@@ happens" situation, then you will get through it and a few blinks from now you will have moved on to bigger and better things.

I have seen guys in your situation get so obsessively tunnel visioned with their short term troubles that they burn down the world around them leading to LONG TERM ramifications.

[Preciousblue1965]

Seems to me that what might have happened was that they forgot or lost your initial eval that was accurate with what you feel you deserved.  Fast forward 4 months later and your new command is screaming because you aren't supposed to have a lapse in reporting periods for evals.  Prototype does the "flop and twitch" and pulls up a copy of Joe Schmoe's Eval, Copy and Paste your name into it, and Viola` You have a new eval.  Now you were supposed to have signed your transfer Eval when you left, and I would be curious is this new and "not improved" eval has your signature or not. 

Take all that for what you will.  Either way, the only thing that is of any importance on your Prototype Graduation Eval is your class ranking if you decide to go to a instructor Shore Duty(I highly recommend Protohell Prototype.

[JustinHEMI05]

22 students, 3 "staff". I was the only student, and one of 2 ep's in the division. guess they just "gave it to me" for no reason, right?

 not to be a douche bag here, but you really have no clue what the hell you are talking about. I didnt get a "student" eval, I earned my EP fair and square, and it applies to my division on the ship right now.... not sure why you guys are cracking down on me so hard.


Everyone -> I should have elaborated more about my eval. I recieved an eval that was filled out incorrectly (according to my Yoeman and career counselor, not me), and it was also filled out by people I had never heard of before. I was under the impression that your LPO or LCPO was the one that did the filling out.  It was also filled out 5 months AFTER graduating prototype, thats more or less why I feel mine was unfair. If my TC thought I was a P sailor, then thats fine, but I was annoyed to see random people fill it out.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

I would personally like to hear how you earned an EP with under a year on the boat?

Justin

[JustinHEMI05]

They set me up for failure pretty much. I was going strong, doing well onboard. they said I wouldnt get my tld for a while, but I didnt sweat it at the time. So then about a month ago, I started to get tired of waiting and doing nothing. I havent studied in a good 4 months now, my knowledge is toast, and I'm doing nothing but cleaning toilets. So then my rad health officer takes me into his office and sits me down. He goes "I understand your predicament, therefore, Im willing to help you do what ever you want". I spent a couple days thinking, talking to khaki, and most importantly my family. I decided, hey, lets just cut my losses and get out. The DAY, the very DAY I go in to decide and start my paperwork, the SMO found some obscure peice of paper, and is "pushing my waiver" through with that, and I am unable to get out now.

so you may ask "well isnt this what you wanted?"... short answer, yes. I absolutely love my job. I love standing watch, operating the plant. Many dont, but I get a huge high in operating a nuclear reactor plant. However, do you ever watch sailors cleaning toilets on those TV specials? The ones that screwed up, and just blasphemy the navy?  well Im stuck cleaning toilets all day, and I didnt even do anything wrong! Whats worse, I get my ass chewed by freaking MASTER chiefs or HIGHER EVERY SINGLE DAY! I will get the heads spotless, and berthing spotless, and go sit down somewhere, and get my butt chewed for "Doing nothing", OR my favorite, a watch section will change, and the guys just off watch come and sleep, and leave there boots on the ground... guess what happens to me when some high up khaki walks through.

Its depressing, its old, Im extremely annoyed. I dont even want to go to work anymore. I dont want a pity party, i just want you guys to understand, that its not all fun and games.

Justin

[Cycoticpenguin]

I think you misunderstood what I was saying.
I would personally like to hear how you earned an EP with under a year on the boat?
Justin

Well, I was a bit shocked I received an EP honestly. I EXPECTED an MP for my efforts though.
Where to start... I qualified BNEQ hella fast, especially compared to the next closest guy from recent times. WHILE i was qualifying BNEQ and waiting for my boards I qualified 3M, QA, SRW, and helped out RM division, even though I didnt belong to them. I was definently the guy people went to for help and tutoring, and I actually stayed after 2-3 times a week for extra hours to get extra studying in. I was never late, and I ALWAYS have an immaculate uniform. I was not the student LPO, however, I Was the one who made the watchbills, told people where to be and what to do, and the actual SLPO came to me for advice.

Im not a suck up, Im a diggit. People STILL call me "Chief Graham", even with my status. They think they are insulting me, however, I take it a as a compliment. I strive to do well in every action I perform.

Flash forward... 4 months without being able to even look at a book, cleaning latrines every freaking day, watching my shipmates get boned with 6 and 6's, and the absolute scorn they have for me that I am unable to stand it. Its not about the "work". For gods sake I have no job, no boss, no anything right now. Technically, I have the "Easiest" job in the nuke world right now. I cant even qualify anything! (I tried taking a test this week, and even though I finished it, an RT chief shredded it! despite that I completed three oral boards).  On top of all this, I have very high ranking officials coming a bitching at me for the stupidest things. I do what they say, but its never enough. I even go above and beyond (i.e. stripping and waxxing the office floor, so it looks good) without anyone telling me, and I still get crapped on. Its tiring... especially with our rotation.


Im not asking anyone to "Feel sorry" for me, Im just asking to not get crap from you guys, I get enough of it onboard. Please put away your notions that Im being a whiner, and realize, that I just want to advance my career as quickly as possible, which is why I asked about my evals, nothing more, nothing less.


Jason -> I agree, I received a "Chit chat" from my first classes (all of them ), and they gave me the "you are better then this" speech. I understand what you are saying, and I will do my best to adopt that point of view.

Precious blue -> Thats EXACTLY what happened. They had to have lost it, or worse, never have done it. The new one does NOT have my signature on it, and it was acknowledged that I was transfering commands without the eval.

 

[JsonD13]

My word of advice to you, look at the eval instruction!  You will see procedures for covering an eval gap.  If you are not E-5 yet, it doesnt matter at all (Chief board only looks at the last 5 years, so even if you are an e-5 you have to make e-6 on the 1st or 2nd try (without EP's) and make board your first e-7 test). 

If prototype did not follow correct procedures, then thats one thing.  The fact that peoples names are on your eval that you did not know?  Well, there are plenty of people in the CoC down there, and guess what, they have rotation dates too!  It could very well be that someone just turned over a job.

From the sounds of it, you are on a carrier.  Why didnt the CoC there put you TAD to a different department?  There are a few places like gage cal, security, supply, etc. that you could be doing a "useful" job (even though it has no relavance to your nuke job).

Did you ever talk to the RHO about the "obscure" instruction the SMO found?  Did you ask if you could look it up yourself?  Sounds to me its just another case of a person who doesnt take the time to research what should be done well enough.  This is your life, read up, figure out what you can or cant do, and then take action.

Oh, BTW, most of the nukes that I know are way too busy when they get up to the E-9 level and up to be looking at instructions figuring out the right thing to do.  Its up to you to educate them sometimes.  ;-)

Jason

[withroaj]

Another little tidbit of advice for while you're still in a holding pattern:  remember to page check and repair when entering a tech manual change.  That will make life a little less boring and your Protopal Eval seem less important.

[goobs22xx]

Hey Graham,

You may have gotten screwed, but that was pretty much the same treatment we got down in Charleston. I'm a SPU and graduated in the top 5%, yet I got a P as well. I don't know of anyone from 0701 who got higher than a P. The worst part is that the evals were done by some tool in offcrew, not people that I interacted with in those 4 painful months (who obviously felt I did well enough to stay on with them). But in the end, I know I'll be evaluated on many many more things than my prototype eval. Chin up.

It happens dude. Always try your hardest because it's who you are, not to be recognized by anyone else. Hopefully karma will pay off for you in the long run.

Love always,

Cook

[PapaBear765]

I'm unhappy about my eval

Join the club.

[deltarho]

http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,14301.msg80198.html#msg80198

So, you don't get the recognition you think you deserve?  Sometimes, people are watching when you don't realize it. Sometimes, recognition comes in different shapes and colors. Always do your best, regardless of your perceived circumstances and show that you can persevere. You may end up ahead of the game...

By the way, I was disqualified Nuc at ET "A" because I misunderstood the criteria. It was stated that you had to be top 2/3 of your class by the class cutoff to stay as a designated nuke. We started with 26 students and I coasted and ranked 15. You would think that using RadCon math that top 2/3 would be 16 and better, so at 15 I was golden.

Nay, Nay, Moosebreath! We lost 10 students by the cutoff, so the calculation was based on the 16 still present, not the 26 we started with, which meant I needed to rank 10 or better.

I could have been sorely peeved at everyone else for not explaining things clearly from the get go, with all possible variations and caveats. I could have expended mass amounts of energy to protest and got nowhere. 

What I did do was buckle down and score a 90% or better on everything for the next 12 weeks. I also wrote a letter to Adm. Rickover and explained that I had failed to meet expectations because of my immaturity. I further explained that I was coasting to save myself for NPS, but this event's lesson taught me to always do well. I told him that my future scores would show evidence of my conversion and that if he that his school could teach it, I could learn it.

I was reinstated, but my low overall average 80.12 (my fellow nukes were 93 and above)followed me through the pipeline and made things rough for me. It took me getting out of the pipeline to shed that monkey, but I stayed determined.

How bad do you want it?

[Preciousblue1965]

http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,14301.msg80198.html#msg80198

So, you don't get the recognition you think you deserve?  Sometimes, people are watching when you don't realize it. Sometimes, recognition comes in different shapes and colors. Always do your best, regardless of your perceived circumstances and show that you can persevere. You may end up ahead of the game...

By the way, I was disqualified Nuc at ET "A" because I misunderstood the criteria. It was stated that you had to be top 2/3 of your class by the class cutoff to stay as a designated nuke. We started with 26 students and I coasted and ranked 15. You would think that using RadCon math that top 2/3 would be 16 and better, so at 15 I was golden.

Nay, Nay, Moosebreath! We lost 10 students by the cutoff, so the calculation was based on the 16 still present, not the 26 we started with, which meant I needed to rank 10 or better.

I could have been sorely peeved at everyone else for not explaining things clearly from the get go, with all possible variations and caveats. I could have expended mass amounts of energy to protest and got nowhere. 

What I did do was buckle down and score a 90% or better on everything for the next 12 weeks. I also wrote a letter to Adm. Rickover and explained that I had failed to meet expectations because of my immaturity. I further explained that I was coasting to save myself for NPS, but this event's lesson taught me to always do well. I told him that my future scores would show evidence of my conversion and that if he that his school could teach it, I could learn it.

I was reinstated, but my low overall average 80.12 (my fellow nukes were 93 and above)followed me through the pipeline and made things rough for me. It took me getting out of the pipeline to shed that monkey, but I stayed determined.

How bad do you want it?

Wasn't that originally referred to as "shooting the gap"?

I heard about it once from an old salty nuke back on the USS Usedtofish. 

[deltarho]

Wasn't that originally referred to as "shooting the gap"?

I heard about it once from an old salty nuke back on the USS Usedtofish. 

NEVER have I heard the term "shooting the gap." I called it shooting my own foot. The only help I got was from the Nuc Advisor at the conventional "A" school. All I remember (besides his name, which I will say only his first and middle name was Senior Chief) was looking at him with his mustache that looked like a miniature foxtail broom under his nose tell me that I have two choices, IBM (instant Botswains Mate) or sign on for AEF (Advanced Electronic Field).

I told him that I joined to be a nuke and wanted nothing more. That's when he finally informed me of the hoops, hurdles and bj's needed to try for reinstatement, which he never saw anyone get during his tour.

My roommate, who later went on to class 8007, when I was in phase three of "A" school read my  letter to Himey and thought it was "Mom, Apple Pie, and Chevrolet."

He was later surprised to see me walking Rickover Circle in Orlando--his classmates didn't get reinstated.

I coasted with the multiple guess questions, knocking out 2 of 4 choices because English is my first language:

This fault is due to an:

(A) Shorted Resistor R-15
(B) Open foil run
(C) Crowbar SCR
(D) Reversed bias on Transistor Q-4

an...followed by vowel
a...followed by consonent

Imagine my chagrin when hitting NPS with the "Briefly describe in detail the operatior of the Magnetic Amplifier, show a typical Hysteresis loop."  2-pts

Those were the days my friend, I thought they'd never end, la, la, la, la--la, la, la, la, la, laaaa.

[Preciousblue1965]

NEVER have I heard the term "shooting the gap." I called it shooting my own foot. The only help I got was from the Nuc Advisor at the conventional "A" school. All I remember (besides his name, which I will say only his first and middle name was Senior Chief) was looking at him with his mustache that looked like a miniature foxtail broom under his nose tell me that I have two choices, IBM (instant Botswains Mate) or sign on for AEF (Advanced Electronic Field).

I told him that I joined to be a nuke and wanted nothing more. That's when he finally informed me of the hoops, hurdles and bj's needed to try for reinstatement, which he never saw anyone get during his tour.

My roommate, who later went on to class 8007, when I was in phase three of "A" school read my  letter to Himey and thought it was "Mom, Apple Pie, and Chevrolet."

He was later surprised to see me walking Rickover Circle in Orlando--his classmates didn't get reinstated.

I coasted with the multiple guess questions, knocking out 2 of 4 choices because English is my first language:

This fault is due to an:

(A) Shorted Resistor R-15
(B) Open foil run
(C) Crowbar SCR
(D) Reversed bias on Transistor Q-4

an...followed by vowel
a...followed by consonent

Imagine my chagrin when hitting NPS with the "Briefly describe in detail the operatior of the Magnetic Amplifier, show a typical Hysteresis loop."  2-pts

Those were the days my friend, I thought they'd never end, la, la, la, la--la, la, la, la, la, laaaa.

According to my old salty friend back on the USS Usedtofish,  "shooting the gap" was a term that was used by those individuals that originally made it into nuke school, but soon realized that they wanted no part of it.  If you scored >2.5 you were considered "passed" for A school but you had to get >2.8 to move on to Power school.  If you scored in between you still got your "crow" and your rating but you got sent out as a conventional.  Since it was considered against the UCMJ for purposely failing out of A school(not to mention that some of the options weren't much better than being a nuke) it was much easier and more lucrative to "shoot the gap" between 2.5 and 2.8 and get E4 and a guaranteed rate. 

Once again this might be an old salt's shore story, but he seemed to be pretty credible.  I think this might have gone on during the mid 80s. 

[Gamecock]

According to my old salty friend back on the USS Usedtofish,  "shooting the gap" was a term that was used by those individuals that originally made it into nuke school, but soon realized that they wanted no part of it.  If you scored >2.5 you were considered "passed" for A school but you had to get >2.8 to move on to Power school.  If you scored in between you still got your "crow" and your rating but you got sent out as a conventional.  Since it was considered against the UCMJ for purposely failing out of A school(not to mention that some of the options weren't much better than being a nuke) it was much easier and more lucrative to "shoot the gap" between 2.5 and 2.8 and get E4 and a guaranteed rate. 

Once again this might be an old salt's shore story, but he seemed to be pretty credible.  I think this might have gone on during the mid 80s. 

What you are referring to was NFAS policy back in the day, not the conventional A' School policy that DR is referring to.  The policy was actually 2.75 or higher to go to NNPS, 2.5 to 2.74 you got your thrid class crow and were sent to the fleet as a conventional.  Want to know how I know this???

Young FN Gamecock had a 2.70 heading into the NFAS comp.  I think I needed something on the order of 3.05 to get my 2.75 and move on to NNPS.  I made a 3.12 and survived NFAS.  I did significantly better at NNPS and then NPTU.

[deltarho]

What you are referring to was NFAS policy back in the day, not the conventional A' School policy that DR is referring to.  The policy was actually 2.75 or higher to go to NNPS, 2.5 to 2.74 you got your thrid class crow and were sent to the fleet as a conventional.  Want to know how I know this???

Young FN Gamecock had a 2.70 heading into the NFAS comp.  I think I needed something on the order of 3.05 to get my 2.75 and move on to NNPS.  I made a 3.12 and survived NFAS.  I did significantly better at NNPS and then NPTU.

Correct sir, about the correcting my ET"A" School requirements when conducted at Great Lakes!

Also correct (with a few caveats) for 2.5 to 2.74 as passed NFAS, but do not cross the sidewalk to NNPS.

Once upon a time there were three little bears.  The MM bear, the EM bear, and the ET bear. In order for the three bears to graduate NFAS, they had to score a 2.5 or above. Those bears who scored 2.5 would move over to their new cave at NNPS. All the other bears were slaughtered and their pelts auctioned off on eBay.

Then one day, it was realized that just because a bear may pass NFAS that it wasn't a good predictor that they might be able to go on to NNPS and pass; their failure rate there was astronomical!  So, the stuff ran down hill and it was determined that the poor success rate at NNPS was the fault of NFAS sending misfit bears. NFAS was told to raise the score needed to graduate (notice that the "F" word [filter] was not used). But, NFAS said that it wasn't fair to the bears to not let them graduate from NFAS after all their training. Moreover that even though they might not be a nuc, they would make a fine conventional bear; so, we would not punish them for their "hard" work that fell a wee short.

With this in mind, "they" looked at the history of all the bears from the past to see what the lowest average graduating score was from NFAS that had 100% graduating from NNPS later. This was not analogous to a filter found in fluid systems, but it was a modified choke in a shotgun.

"They" found that not all bears were created equal; the lowest average graduating NFAS score depended on whether a bear was an EM, ET, or MM bear. For lack of a photographic memory, the best I remember was that an MM bear needed to average about a 3.3 at NFAS to show that it would graduate NNPS 100% of the time; an EM bear was about a 3.13; and an ET bear needed a 2.75. The theory behind the wide range was that the longer a bear was at NFAS, the better the study habits and test taking wiseness became that were vital for success at NNPS.

So, the scale was changed at NFAS so that all the bears with an average greater than a 2.5 would graduate and so that those bears with a score of 2.75 and above would move to the NNPS cave, whether an EM bear, MM bear, or ET bear (remember, we were not a filter).

Low and behold more bears graduated NNPS and NFAS with the change. For NFAS it was probably due to the "Gap Theory" posted elsewhere, which reduced the number of bears that went to slaughter. This increased the overall profits from eBay with the market not saturated with pelts............it never ends.

[retired nuke]

Correct sir, about the correcting my ET"A" School requirements when conducted at Great Lakes!


Once upon a time there were three little bears.  The MM bear, the EM bear, and the ET bear. In order for the three bears to graduate NFAS, they had to score a 2.5 or above. Those bears who scored 2.5 would move over to their new cave at NNPS. All the other bears were slaughtered and their pelts auctioned off on eBay.
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So, the scale was changed at NFAS so that all the bears with an average greater than a 2.5 would graduate and so that those bears with a score of 2.75 and above would move to the NNPS cave, whether an EM bear, MM bear, or ET bear (remember, we were not a filter).

Low and behold more bears graduated NNPS and NFAS with the change. For NFAS it was probably due to the "Gap Theory" posted elsewhere, which reduced the number of bears that went to slaughter. This increased the overall profits from eBay with the market not saturated with pelts............it never ends.

That's funny....

[Preciousblue1965]

Just to clarify, the term "shooting the gap" was explained to me to be the process of students who did not want to continue their nuclear training yet wanted to keep that E4 promotion and minimize the chances of being accused of purposely failing out.  They would intentionally shoot for an overall GPA between 2.5 and 2.75, that way if anyone accused them of intentionally trying to fail the program to get out of the program they could argue that they at least had passed the program as such. 

[PapaBear765]

Low and behold more bears graduated NNPS and NFAS with the change. For NFAS it was probably due to the "Gap Theory" posted elsewhere, which reduced the number of bears that went to slaughter. This increased the overall profits from eBay with the market not saturated with pelts............it never ends.

Actually, from the recent Back-To-Basics report it has a good portion dedicated to the "history of the program" wherein it has graphs that show attrition for NPS and NPTU are unchanged while NFAS had the dramatic drop from ~60% down to 30-40% post grassy knoll speech in the '90s.  If there's less attrition in NFAS, then there's more students in the NPS class, and therefore more graduated students...if that's what you meant.

[deltarho]

This may be the fuzzy math used to substantiate what you saw in those graphs--makes sense, it that is how they wanted to present the statistics.