Shipyard RadCon

[withroaj]

Any of you folks out there go into shipyard radcon after getting out?

I'm in RCTQS right now, and about half of the folks in the class are ex-navy; but I don't hear much here on nukeworker.com about shipyard radcon jobs.  For those that may be in shipyard radcon, or those who have done commercial nuke AND shipyard, how does the Code 105 life work out?

For the commercial nuke folks:  will the RCT training I get in the Navy actually help in the commercial world, or is NNPP radcon just too prohibitive for a big kids' plant?

[withroaj]

EB Radcon, '88, '89, '90,....

radcon sense is radcon sense,... the thresholds and the goals outside the USN programs are different and you'll need to adjust,...

What drove you from EB to commercial?  Or are you one of the MARSSIM folks (which, by the way, is some thing that I know exists and nothing more about it)?

[HydroDave63]

Or are you one of the MARSSIM folks (which, by the way, is some thing that I know exists and nothing more about it)?

Then there's your lookup !!  After you fetch me a pop...I'll bet there is a link to MARSSIM info SOMEwhere on this site, perhaps this very page.....

[withroaj]

Oh, I've gone to www.marssim.com and looked at the FAQ in the marssim for beginners section.  I haven't gone too deep though, since I'm busy in 0288 training right now.  I know what it is, just not what's in it.  I'm guessing it's like the 0288 or the RCFS for grown-ups, right?

EDIT:  By the way, Hydrodave, I've got two Mountain Dews and three Dr. Peppers in the rack, but the ice machine's broken.  I can get one back to you once I finish up my daily PMS.  Want me to leave it in the AC duct to cool it off?  Sorry if it smells like rack pan, RL div laundry day is tomorrow and I missed last week (limited water usage).

[withroaj]

wrong,...

Wait, is it:

The Multi-Agency Radiation Surveys and Site Investigation Manual (MARSSIM) provides detailed guidance for planning, implementing, and evaluating environmental and facility radiological surveys conducted to demonstrate compliance with a dose- or risk-based regulation. MARSSIM focuses on the demonstration of compliance during the final status survey following scoping, characterization, and any necessary remedial actions.

Oh NO!  I got off topic on my own thread...  Sorry.  Shipyard vs. Commercial RADCON?

[HydroDave63]

  Sorry.  Shipyard vs. Commercial RADCON?

100 cpm/swipe vs. the real world?

[withroaj]

So you're saying that SY radcon is just the same as SF radcon, except that you get bigger, more involved jobs?

[wlrun3@aol.com]

So you're saying that SY radcon is just the same as SF radcon, except that you get bigger, more involved jobs?

   ...your posts are great, so I thought i'd offer a general tour of the radiological conditions encountered during a standard refueling of an american light water power reactor...

   ...steam generator platforms.. GA  20-100 mr/hr, 10-100 Kdpm/100 cm2...

   ...steam generator channel heads... GA  2-10 R/hr, 100k-1M dpm/100 cm2...

   ...reactor cavity ( both PWR and BWR )... GA  10-200 mR/hr, 10-300k dpm/100cm2...

   ...drywell... GA 10 mR/hr-1 R/hr, 2-200kdpm/100cm2...

   ...all Co58/60...

   ...contamination levels noted above are Beta/Gamma removable only...

 

[withroaj]

   ...your posts are great, so I thought i'd offer a general tour of the radiological conditions encountered during a standard refueling of an american light water power reactor...

   ...steam generator platforms.. GA  20-100 mr/hr, 10-100 Kdpm/100 cm2...

   ...steam generator channel heads... GA  2-10 R/hr, 100k-1M dpm/100 cm2...

   ...reactor cavity ( both PWR and BWR )... GA  10-200 mR/hr, 10-300k dpm/100cm2...

   ...drywell... GA 10 mR/hr-1 R/hr, 2-200kdpm/100cm2...

   ...all Co58/60...

   ...contamination levels noted above are Beta/Gamma removable only...

 

That's pretty amazing.  With all that crap on everything, how do you manage your radcon to allow work to happen while preventing spread of radioactivity to uncontrolled areas?

Does that mean you folks also get near your 5rem/year limits?  Or do the big kids use Sieverts now (I read somewhere that NIST doesn't want to use the rem anymore)?

[G-reg]

SF and SY RadCon are very similar, although the SY RadCon enters some new territory (Environmental Monitoring and Tents/Glovebags are two areas that come to mind).  But at their core, both SF and SY RadCon are dominated by Naval Reactors.

Another small difference is that SF RadCon is somewhat 'sleazy' by SY standards.  This is the nature of the beast since SY RCT's eat/sleep/breathe (and get paid to do) only RadCon, whereas SF ELT's have several other things on their plate.  In addition to the manning aspect, SF is operating a nuclear reactor on a vessel of war, whereas SY RadCon occurs up on blocks or on dry land.  If the Navy tried to hold SF RadCon to SY standards, then our nuclear-powered ships would probably never get out to sea...

Commercial RadCon on the other hand, is a completely different beast - believe me!  In fact, they don't even use the term 'RadCon' by-and-large (although exceptions do exist).  There are volumes and volumes of information on this subject here in this forum (written by people much wiser than I), so I won't even try to duplicate it here.  In addition, I think it would probably be off-topic...  

Peace, and good luck!
 - Greg

[JustinHEMI05]

Let me just say that coming to the commercial world after the navy was... EYE OPENING... to say the least.

Justin

[wlrun3@aol.com]

That's pretty amazing.  With all that crap on everything, how do you manage your radcon to allow work to happen while preventing spread of radioactivity to uncontrolled areas?

Does that mean you folks also get near your 5rem/year limits?  Or do the big kids use Sieverts now (I read somewhere that NIST doesn't want to use the rem anymore)?

   ...glad you asked...

   ...in 1980 hp technicians like shovel head red and rapid ray "negotiated" with pre 10 CFR 26 craft workers and a concensus was reached...

   ...PPE, decon, hepa, stay time, sweat, experience and, in a way, it all worked out...

   ...average collective dose per reactor...
         1980...790 person-rem
         2004...100 person-rem

   ...average measureable dose per worker...
         1980...670 mrem
         2004...150 mrem

   ...maximum dependable capacity achieved...
         1980...60%
         2004...93%

   ...somebody out there has a lot to be proud of...

[withroaj]

For those 'per reactor' and 'per worker' dose levels, are we talking outages for major maintenance; or routine radiological work?

If it's outages, that's pretty impressive considering the hefty rad levels you fellers are working with.  Hell, the per worker level comes out better than ELT's in overhaul on an old 688, and you folks are working with REAL radioactivity.  It seems like the big kids' plant maintenance community is one to be proud of.  You guys aren't pushing 1 rem x age, are you?  I know that isn't a real requirement anymore, but I don't really know if I want that many zoomies in my life.

[Already Gone]

Yes, we're trying to enforce the REM<Age, but for some people we have to settle for trying to keep them under a rem a year until they retire because they already have 50 - 70 R lifetime.

Lots of things have changed since I left the boat one Friday and started at Indian Point the following Monday.  I remember running guys up to 2750 mR in about 90 seconds and doing it again two days later when the new quarter began.  We don't have to do that so much any more.

But there is still the occasional smear (swipe to you) that reads about 60 mR on contact.  That comes out to about 6 million dpm/100cm² or 2.7 million micro-micro's.

How do we contain it?  The RCA's are rather large buildings.  There is an army of deconners with mops.  Lots of plastic suits, coveralls, step-off pads ... you know... the usual stuff but lots more of it.  Of course the number one tool that we have in our bag of tricks, the one thing that keeps nuclear power safe and reliable ..... rolls and rolls of duct tape.  We buy it by the tractor-trailer load.

[G-reg]

For those 'per reactor' and 'per worker' dose levels, are we talking outages for major maintenance; or routine radiological work?

If it's outages, that's pretty impressive considering the hefty rad levels you fellers are working with.  Hell, the per worker level comes out better than ELT's in overhaul on an old 688, and you folks are working with REAL radioactivity.  It seems like the big kids' plant maintenance community is one to be proud of.  You guys aren't pushing 1 rem x age, are you?  I know that isn't a real requirement anymore, but I don't really know if I want that many zoomies in my life.

One big way that dose is cut on the commercial side is (get this) COMMON SENSE.  To illustrate, one job I was involved in covering on the commercial side was the replacement of a 16" check valve coming right off of the T_H.  General area dose rates (with shielding) varied from 30-200mR/hr depending on where you stood in relation to the pipes, with about 3R/hr one foot inside the open ends of the pipes.  After the old valve was cut out, I was involved in grinding out the inner surface of the pipes right at the cut to clean them up for weld prep.  The potential for contamination spread during the grinding was daunting.  How would the Navy approach this?  By installing and certifying a glovebag, grinding away about 1 square inch at a time, stopping to take about 6.022x10²³ swipes, and then repeating.  All under the close scrutiny of about 27 supervisors.  How was this approached in the commercial world?  For starters, there were only three people on-scene, myself and the two welders doing the end-prep.  (The 27 supervisors monitored the job from the luxury of their air conditioning via a CCTV camera and radio headsets.)  Big ALARA savings, just in that aspect alone.  And the other primary difference is that we completed the cleaning of both pipe ends in about 30 minutes, start to finish.  The two glovebags (one for each open end of the pipe) were ready-to-go before we even got to the scene; all we did was walk up to one pipe, slip the glovebag over the pipe, pull it tight over the pipe and secure it batwing-fashion to the pipe, and start grinding.  One welder held/supported the glovebag while the other did the work.  As soon as the inner lip of the pipe was clean, the glovebag was slid into a waste bag and the end of the pipe was given a thorough but expeditious wipedown.  Turn around to the other open end of the pipe and repeat.  Start-to-finish the job was complete in about 30 minutes, and we didn't spread any contamination at the jobsite (or onto ourselves, either).  One of the biggest things I've realized about Navy RadCon is exactly how far-and-away OVERKILL it is.  I understand public fear & superstition as well as anybody else, but the NNPP has taken radiological controls way to the extreme.

[withroaj]

That's impressive.  It's funny how, as NNPP plants get less and less crapped up, the requirements get more and more restrictive.  Sounds like a money machine is more efficient from the ground up.

[JustinHEMI05]

That's impressive.  It's funny how, as NNPP plants get less and less crapped up, the requirements get more and more restrictive.  Sounds like a money machine is more efficient from the ground up.

You can't even begin to imagine how much more efficient they become in all aspects of maintenance, repair and radcon when there is a big money maker on the end of it. That has been one of the single biggest changes I have seen. Here is some perspective;

It took the Navy >9months to turn some valves around.

At Palo Verde they replaced both steam generators in a unit and refueled the core in under 90 days. By they way, their steam generators are among the largest in the world. They were made in Italy and took many months just to ship there. Up close, I felt like I was standing next to the boat again.

My plant starts an outtage here in a couple weeks. We will have completed the outage in 22 days. That include tearing the turbines down and refueling among many many other things.

It is simply amazing what can be accomplished when you apply some common sense.

Justin

[JustinHEMI05]

Of course you recognize the difference, right?

The money maker needs to be up and operating to make money.  This is obvious.  Therefore, they have to be efficient.

Lean thinking, and lean processes are gradually coming into the navy.  In fact, every newly accessed Engineering Duty Officer (the officer community...not the watch station) has to take part in a lean event in order to qualify for the designator.  I don't know how long it will take to reach into the nuke world, but, I'm sure its coming.  We can only do more and more with less and less for so long before something has to give.

Cheers,
GC

Minor threadjack complete.

Yes of course I recognize the difference. It wasn't meant to be a slam on the Navy or anything. I understand why the Navy has to do things the way they do and I understand that when there is a stock price involved, things have to be done differently.

I apologize if it seemed like it was a slam on the Navy.

Justin