Drinking at NNPTC

[Jus Me]

 {Humph, some of us have high opinions of ourselves. The rest of us try to be honest with ourselves and keep working on our flaws, because we have them, dang-it.

Good luck though, and to the people that have to live and work with you.} Sorry Guys, this part was un-necessary.


Back to the topic, which I'll restate, is the maximum NJP "award" for under age alcohol use or suppling to same, at Goose Creek serving the needs of the Navy?  ( in retrospect this thread has done a good job of staying on topic, please keep it up)

Are Sailors with "potential" being kicked out of the program, out of the Navy or so demoralized that you will regret working with them in the fleet?

I'm NOT condoning or supporting the behavior! Get it??

Give them the right guidance and they can become the backbone of your shop/div.

Note To Students at NNPTC: Don't Do It. Think Long Term! A "few" months until you get your NEC and to the fleet is nothing. Our old mantra was "I can stand on my head for that time, this is nothing" Take up Paint-ball for outlet and STUDY!

Senior Forum Members: These young Sailors need a place to ask questions and vent. Past posts appear to do a good job of that.
Please keep it up, pass on judgment. Guidance is what they need. Jus My Opinion.

There was a MMCM(SS)ret that used to post and provide perspective to these students.

Any more of You out there?

Hydro seems to think that the program is AFU, I don't believe it. Master Chief, your 2 cents?

BTY, I don't believe that disregarding civil/military law or command decisions is frivolous.


Did I Piss In someones Cheerios? Watch my Karma score and find out!

Jus Me,
put'n the soap box back in the closet.

Blessings to all of you, sincerely.

[Preciousblue1965]

Well seeing as the thread I started has skewed onto this tangent, I feel I should weigh in.

I agree in principle on the concept that if you are old enough to serve you are old enough to be served. Having said that I also realize that that magic time between 18 and 21 there are indeed a lot things occuring in the human brain.  Some studies(no I don't have documentation other than my psychology textbook) show that the human brain does not fully develop until after the age of 22, the last part to develop is the section that understands long term consequences(anyone who has a teenager I am sure can attest to that). 

With that being said, I am sure that there is a way in which we can allow our 18-20 year old sailors to have a beer and maintain good order and discipline.  Perhaps an on base club in which they may drink, but only under VERY STRICT situations such as they have to turn in their car keys to their section advisor or the Duty Person who will monitor the bar, will no longer be served upon reaching beligerance, and must have a safe way back to the barracks or their apartment such as a DD or cab.  Any of those that violate any of the rules have their privalages revoked permanantly.  Any that are behind the curve or have too low a GPA are also not allowed to partake.

In the end though, yes a lot of young sailors drink underage, some do so responsibly, others do not.  This once again goes back to "the stupid shall be punished".  If you are stupid enough to get drunk underage, do stupid stuff to get caught(driving, wrestling, streaking, etc) then you will be punished.  If you are responsible enough to stay at home, watch a movie and go to bed after a beer or two, more than likely you aren't going to be punished.  Doesn't make it any less against the law, but then again the chances of getting a ticket doing 10 mph over the speed limit is less than if you are doing 30 mph over.

[JustinHEMI05]

Humph, some of us have high opinions of ourselves. The rest of us try to be honest with ourselves and keep working on our flaws, because we have them, dang-it.

Good luck though, and to the people that have to live and work with you.

Back to the topic, which I'll restate, is the maximum NJP "award" for under age alcohol use or suppling to same, at Goose Creek serving the needs of the Navy?  ( in retrospect this thread has done a good job of staying on topic, please keep it up)

Are Sailors with "potential" being kicked out of the program, out of the Navy or so demoralized that you will regret working with them in the fleet?

I'm NOT condoning or supporting the behavior! Get it??

Give them the right guidance and they can become the backbone of your shop/div.

Note To Students at NNPTC: Don't Do It. Think Long Term! A "few" months until you get your NEC and to the fleet is nothing. Our old mantra was "I can stand on my head for that time, this is nothing" Take up Paint-ball for outlet and STUDY!

Senior Forum Members: These young Sailors need a place to ask questions and vent. Past posts appear to do a good job of that.
Please keep it up, pass on judgment. Guidance is what they need. Jus My Opinion.

There was a MMCM(SS)ret that used to post and provide perspective to these students.

Any more of You out there?

Hydro seems to think that the program is AFU, I don't believe it. Master Chief, your 2 cents?

BTY, I don't believe that disregarding civil/military law or command decisions is frivolous.


Did I Piss In someones Cheerios? Watch my Karma score and find out!

Jus Me,
put'n the soap box back in the closet.

Blessings to all of you, sincerely.

So you have never supplied alcohol to an underaged sailor?

Justin

[rlbinc]

I remember Viet Nam era shenanigans.
In some places 18 year olds couldn't drink.
But in ANY American Legion or VFW, wear your cracker jacks - the booze flowed and your money was no good.

Some of the occupants were cops, who could care less if a sailor had a few.

By the same token, one should avoid arrests, and maintain respectable behavior.

Once flashing lights and handcuffs are displayed, a bad judgement line has been crossed

[Jus Me]

Justin, I got some heat for making a statement to the effect of "who hasn't given the nub a beer?"

Things were different 20 some years ago, the E-club served 18 on base at my last duty station but local age was 21 if memory serves me correctly.

To answer your question, I can't think of an incident but I'm sure I had. There were other substance abuse issues in that time, underage drinking in the Navy was only an occasional concern at the command level (when some did something more stupid than most). If I were in their shoes today, I would hope not, it's hard for me to imagine being 20 years old in the current environment/society.

I'm guessing this will resurrect the "Goes to Integrity" comments.....

I was a 4.0 Sailor, written up only once and it was dropped, it turned out to be someone else's screw up. But having asked the question "what punitive, and now I'll add administrative, action is appropriate" and adding the flippant (guess I shouldn't have)question " who hasn't given the nub a beer?" somehow makes me a dirtbag in the eyes of some members.

Moving On.

In the original parent thread the discussion is "How would you fix the NNPP?"

"well what can we do about the 'sucking' part"

Is the field under manned? Is some of it a negative attitude or mindset brought forward from the pipeline or acquired from the first possible issue?

If either of the above are true then I think this thread has an impact on the other. In the true big picture it may be insignificant, I don't know.

Times and priorities change,

Back in my enlisted days, if you went to mast, you were going to also be awarded, as a seperate administrative action, disenrollment from the nuclear power program.  Very few folks went to mast and stayed in the program.  Kids today get off easy by not getting de-nuked first mast.

I understand that this still happens, and in some cases should. Some issues may not have gone to mast in previous times, where was the line in your time?

[JustinHEMI05]

Justin, I got some heat for making a statement to the effect of "who hasn't given the nub a beer?"

Things were different 20 some years ago, the E-club served 18 on base at my last duty station but local age was 21 if memory serves me correctly.

To answer your question, I can't think of an incident but I'm sure I had. There were other substance abuse issues in that time, underage drinking in the Navy was only an occasional concern at the command level (when some did something more stupid than most). If I were in their shoes today, I would hope not, it's hard for me to imagine being 20 years old in the current environment/society.

I'm guessing this will resurrect the "Goes to Integrity" comments.....

I was a 4.0 Sailor, written up only once and it was dropped, it turned out to be someone else's screw up. But having asked the question "what punitive, and now I'll add administrative, action is appropriate" and adding the flippant (guess I shouldn't have)question " who hasn't given the nub a beer?" somehow makes me a dirtbag in the eyes of some members.

On to an additional reply, yes, the award it is at the CO's discression, as well as recommendations for additional administrative action. But every one answers to someone.

In the original parent thread the discussion is "How would you fix the NNPP?"

Is the field under manned? Is some of it a negative attitude or mindset brought forward from the pipeline or acquired from the first possible issue?

If either of the above are true then I think this thread has an impact on the other. In the true big picture it may be insignificant, I don't know.

Times and priorities change,

I understand that this still happens, and in some cases should. Some issues may not have gone to mast in previous times, where was the line in your time?

See, that I don't have a problem with. If it was 18, then so be it. What I have a problem with is encouraging law breaking which is what your original statement insinuated. But now that its clear, I think we agree. I do believe the age should be lowered, but right now its not. And buying a nub a beer while underage is against the law, and therefore should be discouraged and punished when broken. To what degree is personal opinion, and you know mine.


Justin

[Jus Me]

For underage drinking and or supply of alcohol to a minor student in the pipeline.

Are they still being removed from the program?

Some say they should because it is an indiction of integrity issues.

Any recent awardees want to share what you got?

I've seen a few older postings from those that have turned their situation around.

Just looking for anecdotal information.

[Gamecock]

For underage drinking and or supply of alchohol to a minor student in the pipeline.

Are they being removed from the program?

Some say they should because it is an indiction of integrety issues.

Any recent awardees want to share what you got?

I've seen a few older posting from those that have turned their situation around.

Anyone want to tell their story?

As a moderator, I must step in and say that that isn't what this forum is for.  If you want to post those types of stories, become a Goldmember (which by the way costs less then 10 cents a day), and start a thread in the navy stories section.  If not, keep the posts on relevant items that effect people getting in, staying in, or getting out.

Cheers,
Gc

[Jus Me]

How about saving the sea stories for the other thread then.

Several active members offered up the awards and subsequent actions at the time they were in the pipeline.

Any recent history?

If the problem is wide spread among the students is there a long term solution and/or is this a good test? (assuming the "school is a filter" analogy is accurate)

Jus Me

[PapaBear765]

The maximum award at NJP for any infraction is based on whatever the Commanding Officer deems appropriate for maintaining good order and discipline.  So, since none of us are the CO at NNPTC, none of us have the perspective required to appropriately answer this question. 

No, the CO doesn't get to do what he wants.  The UCMJ restricts his ability in several ways, such as dropping no more than 2 ranks, no more than 45 days restricted duty, no more than 1/2 pay for 2 months, etc.

But otherwise, yes, it's whatever the CO wants.  And he doesn't have to give the same punishment to two people going before him for the same offense.  He has the discretion to tailor his punishment.

[Jus Me]

No, the CO doesn't get to do what he wants.  The UCMJ restricts his ability in several ways, such as dropping no more than 2 ranks, no more than 45 days restricted duty, no more than 1/2 pay for 2 months, etc.

But otherwise, yes, it's whatever the CO wants.  And he doesn't have to give the same punishment to two people going before him for the same offense.  He has the discretion to tailor his punishment.

Thanks for the clarification, I didn't look it up, should have. How about the recommendations for administrative action, where has it been going lately.
Sorry if that is just to general, take a swing at it.

Jus Me

[drainbamage]

No, the CO doesn't get to do what he wants.  The UCMJ restricts his ability in several ways, such as dropping no more than 2 ranks, no more than 45 days restricted duty, no more than 1/2 pay for 2 months, etc.

But otherwise, yes, it's whatever the CO wants.  And he doesn't have to give the same punishment to two people going before him for the same offense.  He has the discretion to tailor his punishment.

Unfortunately, at least on the pay cut, he's been doing up to 3x here at NNPTC. Granted they've been in masts with individuals who were not "forthright and honest," so I guess what goes around comes around.

[Jus Me]

Anyone close to the topic (there) want to tell us about the recent Masts?

20 some students, right?
30-45 days Restriction and ED?
RiR...
1/2 x 2 or 3 in pay?

Did they get told if they were being recommended for removal from the program or discharge at the time?

You want to make a point with the incoming students, let those masted tell the "I was'nt gonna get caught" story.....

PM if you don't want to go public.

Jus Me

[drainbamage]

Anyone close to the topic (there) want to tell us about the recent Masts?

20 some students, right?
30-45 days Restriction and ED?
RiR...
1/2 x 2 or 3 in pay?

Did they get told if they were being recommended for removal from the program or discharge at the time?

You want to make a point with the incoming students, let those masted tell the "I was'nt gonna get caught" story.....

PM if you don't want to go public.

Jus Me

The "standard" seemed to be 30 day mildiv, up to 45 days restriction and the pay cut varied depending on how "honest and forthright" the person was in their investigation.

The recent slew of mastings was pretty weird though, a lot of up-the-wall activity like adultery, attempted assault, and one case of a sailor kicking the OOD.

[TheObiJuan]

Months back one underage kid got 45 days restriction, 45 days Mil-Div, E-2, for getting drunk, rowdy, and beaten up by the bouncer at a strip club on his birthday.
Considering the amount of time and staff that invest themselves in preventing underage drinking, I felt the punishment was not enough.

Recently there was a holiday, out-of-state DUI for an E4 of age. He was brought down to E3 and given 45/45.
He may be separated because of a staff letter/eval based on his attitude while in MILDIV.

The over-glorification of alcohol by minors is pathetic here. My college (Texas A&M) is a huge alcohol university; the desire to drink and boast of drinking is far worse here at NNPTC.
I hope that dwindles at NPTU.

[93-383]

Months back one underage kid got 45 days restriction, 45 days Mil-Div, E-2, for getting drunk, rowdy, and beaten up by the bouncer at a strip club on his birthday.
Considering the amount of time and staff that invest themselves in preventing underage drinking, I felt the punishment was not enough.

Recently there was a holiday, out-of-state DUI for an E4 of age. He was brought down to E3 and given 45/45.
He may be separated because of a staff letter/eval based on his attitude while in MILDIV.

The over-glorification of alcohol by minors is pathetic here. My college (Texas A&M) is a huge alcohol university; the desire to drink and boast of drinking is far worse here at NNPTC.
I hope that dwindles at NPTU.

Unless things have changed massively in the last ten years, the promotion of alcohol (by the crew not the command) will be "worse" in NPTU and "unbearable" in the fleet.

Ten years ago when I was at NNPTC I saw little to no underage drinking probably because in my group of friends we all knew the risk and it wasn't worth it. At NPTU I saw and participated in some alcohol consumption mostly on end of "swings" parties, but again nothing excessive. In the fleet however I saw an entirely different navy. Several people in my division showed up to work drunk everyday, the "command" climate discouraged drinking with the "right spirit" campaign. But at the department level no one cared, hell you couldn't get nukes to show up at the command picnic or organize a department picnic because there wouldn't be any booze there.

[Ice Cracker]

The current punishment isn't really enough, in my opinion. The CO hands out pretty much the max punishment every single time, but a lot of these guys end up back in the pipeline, minus 30-45 days and their crows. It's not even really an integrity issue (though after attending integrity briefs done by the A-DOS, CO, DSED, and the P-DOS I think, I'm not really sure what the official definition of integrity is anymore), it's more of a "how stupid are you" issue in my eyes.

You WILL get told over 100 times in your first week to not underage drink. Every indoc brief mentions it at least once, your indoc SLPOs will re-iterate it every 10 minutes, and most other students (myself included) will tell you to not underage drink. It's probably the first thing anyone tells an indoc when they talk to one, because it's that big of a deal. Words can't really express how much you will be hammered with the phrase "don't drink underage" in your first week alone.

And yet, at least one person goes to Mast for it at a minimum of every other week. There was an open mast of about 2/3rds of a section a couple weeks ago, all for underage drinking (and one kid who broke in to another guy's house to steal beer). Mildiv travels as an element now, and the only reason it's not huge is because they have no more berthings (or so I've been told), so a lot of these dirtbags got DTP and CCU. It's really an issue of "can you follow instructions" more than anything else in this case, because if you can't be trusted to not underage drink after being told hundreds of times to not do so, how can you be trusted to follow procedure on watch, not blaze logs, etc.

Underage drinking in particular should be grounds for immediate dismissal from the program, no if-ands-or-buts about it. It's completely inexcusable.

Jus Me: They do have someone who's been masted for underage drinking talk to all the new arrivals (at least they did when I got here), but I don't know how effective it is, really... It comes so late in the briefing schedule that by that point if you haven't decided to not so much as think about alcohol until you're 21, you're just plain stupid.