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DSO

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Re: a few questions...
« Reply #25 on: Oct 17, 2008, 12:05 »
The most important thing here is to take care of your depression--whether you need meds or not.  The Navy is way behind times with their idea of denuking people for  just "trying to help their mental conditions". --they do seem to be evolving more as time goes on though. Would they rather you have a melt down and do something stupid? If that occurs then they take you to mast and its all your fault. Just do whatever you need for your mental health--if it requires meds I wouldn'y hesitate to take them and screw whatever the Navy thinks or does. I was a 20 year nuke and took pysch meds(for being overly impatient and hyper to the point of being overly agitated) during my last 3 yrs in --during general shore duty and my nuclear status was not in the least effected. Others at my shore duty were Limdu there (from sea duty) and were only denuked until the Navy "fixed them" and would then be reassigned to a surface nuclear vessel only--not subs even if they were intially on them.  I think every case is different in what is done. I do not believe your GI bill would be pulled do to a medical discharge--mental or physical.  I don't understand the idiots in the Navy not wanting a depressive person to take medicine that will help them with their problem and help them perform their job better than before.
« Last Edit: Oct 17, 2008, 12:07 by DSO »

Offline gsmagnum

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Re: a few questions...
« Reply #26 on: Oct 17, 2008, 11:54 »
I doubt very much that you would lose the GI Bill also.
Those that have been separated for failure of the PRT weight standards still get their GI Bill.
The only question is whether or not they will reclaim your enlistment/reenlistment bonus. *They will apply any severance pay toward the bonus reclamation and give you a 3 year payment plan to pay any money back.
It is really great to pay the gross (untaxed) bonus back with net (ie taxed) seperation pay. ::)

JsonD13

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Re: a few questions...
« Reply #27 on: Oct 23, 2008, 02:33 »
I was just re-reading this thread and thought that I should bring this back to life a lil bit.  First, sleeping your life away, no matter where you are at, is not a good way to deal with depression.  Now getting enough sleep and sleeping every second you are not on watch or working are two different things.  Sleeping that much (unless you are working 16 hours every day), is usually more of a symptom of someone that doesn't know or can't deal with their issues in life on their own.  The type of person who does this needs to be referred to get help. 

Alot of people will look at someone that is depressed like they have a contagious disease, and get angry with them for not being able to do their job.  Alot of people ASSUME that someone is faking it.  I just had a good ole discussion today with someone that thought I was full of crap because once the moment came by that I knew that I was going to lose my job, I researched the hell out of everything, and started getting all my medical issues taken care of that I had been putting off for over 5 years.  Who in their right mind would just let their life bounce by without looking at their options once their career path changed?  This type of discrimination won't go away until I leave my command.  It has gotten so bad, that it is actually causing me alot of stress now.  Don't let this get to you Apoc, itll make things alot worse than they really are.  Try to stay away from those nay-sayers and do your own thing and get better.

Jason

JsonD13

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Re: a few questions...
« Reply #28 on: Oct 23, 2008, 04:10 »
GC,
    Hey thanks for the info.

Jason

PapaBear765

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Re: a few questions...
« Reply #29 on: Oct 24, 2008, 04:15 »
Someone taking mood altering drugs (or someone who should be taking mood altering drugs and isn't taking them as required) potentially puts the ship and shipmates lives at risk.

Sounds like the words from the dog in the latest anti-drug TV commercial, "I don't like you when you smoke pot."  Either way it's showing the opinions of someone who hasn't ever tried a "mood altering drug" and shouldn't be commenting on it.

Are we forgetting that 99% of the people on a ship/sub are screwed up in their own way?  That their mind isn't focused on the xenon transient in progress but on what's going on with their personal life back ashore?  You don't need to be under the influence of a drug to be off-topic while on watch.  Let's not forget the old shoot-the-poo's that never really do a good job of restoring our margin to thermal limits either.

So in short, being on meds for something isn't in any way more disabling than any of the other accepted or unavoidable avenues of degrading the quality of standing watch.
« Last Edit: Oct 24, 2008, 08:00 by PapaBear765 »

JustinHEMI05

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Re: a few questions...
« Reply #30 on: Oct 24, 2008, 05:28 »
Sounds like the words from the dog in the latest anti-drug TV commercial, "I don't like you when you smoke pot."  Either way it's showing the opinions of someone who hasn't ever tried a "mood altering drug" and shouldn't be commenting on it.

Are we forgetting that 99% of the people on a ship/sub are screwed up in their own way?  That they're mind isn't focused on the xenon transient in progress but on what's going on with their personal life back ashore?  You don't need to be under the influence of a drug to be off-topic while on watch.  Let's not forget the old shoot-the-poo's that never really do a good job of restoring our margin to thermal limits either.

So in short, being on meds for something isn't in any way more disabling than any of the other accepted or unavoidable avenues of degrading the quality of standing watch.

That said, it doesn't matter. That is what the Navy thinks, therefore that is the way it is.

Justin

Offline DDMurray

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Re: a few questions...
« Reply #31 on: Oct 24, 2008, 08:10 »
Sounds like the words from the dog in the latest anti-drug TV commercial, "I don't like you when you smoke pot."  Either way it's showing the opinions of someone who hasn't ever tried a "mood altering drug" and shouldn't be commenting on it.

Are we forgetting that 99% of the people on a ship/sub are screwed up in their own way?  That their mind isn't focused on the xenon transient in progress but on what's going on with their personal life back ashore?  You don't need to be under the influence of a drug to be off-topic while on watch.  Let's not forget the old shoot-the-poo's that never really do a good job of restoring our margin to thermal limits either.

So in short, being on meds for something isn't in any way more disabling than any of the other accepted or unavoidable avenues of degrading the quality of standing watch.

Let's assume you're right about 99% of the people being screwed up and don't focus on the plant 100% of the time.  If they are not impaired by meds (i.e, they are not paying attention), their ability to respond to a stimulus such as an alarm or warning light will allow them to respond in the worst case time assumed by reactor protection analysis.  There is no way of predicting response times for those on meds. You are way off base here.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
T. Roosevelt

PapaBear765

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Re: a few questions...
« Reply #32 on: Oct 25, 2008, 08:11 »
Let's assume you're right about 99% of the people being screwed up and don't focus on the plant 100% of the time.  If they are not impaired by meds (i.e, they are not paying attention), their ability to respond to a stimulus such as an alarm or warning light will allow them to respond in the worst case time assumed by reactor protection analysis.  There is no way of predicting response times for those on meds. You are way off base here.

Let's assume that most people aren't paying attention?  How about, let's stop pretending that anything else happens?

Not having first-hand knowledge of depression, I'll defer to Beercourt's posts on this one.  As far as "mood altering drugs" my first-hand knowledge tells me that pot would have no affect on the response time of an operator, assuming he was minding his panel to begin with.  So when I hear people say that "he's on drugs, he shouldn't operating the plant" I assume it's a knee-jerk reaction of those who don't what they're talking about.

If they're on medication/drugs and not impaired, then what's the big deal?  If they are impaired, then I guess they shouldn't be operating heavy machinery.  But the two are not mutually inclusive, i.e. just because you take medication/drugs that you are now impaired.  So...my last post was meant for those who have no first-hand experience with these issues but are jumping on the band wagon of "no drugies in my navy!"

Offline DDMurray

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Re: a few questions...
« Reply #33 on: Oct 25, 2008, 10:32 »
Let's assume that most people aren't paying attention?  How about, let's stop pretending that anything else happens?


PB,
You are dead wrong.  I agree it's naive to think operators are focused on their panel or watchstation 100% of the time.  Good operators hold STS in maneuvering while effectively monitoring their panels, just like good drivers can talk to their passengers while driving.  I have served on four submarines and monitored watchstanding underway and in port on about twelve different submarines.  There are boats that enforce basic watchstanding better than others.  Even if I assumed you are correct and nobody monitors their panel or watchstattion ever, I stand by my remarks that people not under the influence of drugs will be able to better respond to casualties. 

DM
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
T. Roosevelt

PapaBear765

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Re: a few questions...
« Reply #34 on: Oct 25, 2008, 11:13 »
PB,
You are dead wrong.  I agree it's naive to think operators are focused on their panel or watchstation 100% of the time.  Good operators hold STS in maneuvering while effectively monitoring their panels, just like good drivers can talk to their passengers while driving.  I have served on four submarines and monitored watchstanding underway and in port on about twelve different submarines.  There are boats that enforce basic watchstanding better than others.  Even if I assumed you are correct and nobody monitors their panel or watchstattion ever, I stand by my remarks that people not under the influence of drugs will be able to better respond to casualties. 

DM

Well, you can't really say that I'm dead wrong when you didn't get my point.  I completely disagree with anyone who says pot will impair my ability to stand watch.  So if someone with the first-hand knowledge of the affliction of depression and its associated medication claims that someone with that affliction and medication can still stand as good a watch as anyone else, then I can't really argue with them.  I was just pointing out that each medication, each drug, has to be talked about individually and not lumped together as though they're all the same...which is what appeared to be happening with the comments made about depression drugs and standing watch.

Offline DDMurray

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Re: a few questions...
« Reply #35 on: Oct 25, 2008, 01:06 »
Well, you can't really say that I'm dead wrong when you didn't get my point.  I completely disagree with anyone who says pot will impair my ability to stand watch.  So if someone with the first-hand knowledge of the affliction of depression and its associated medication claims that someone with that affliction and medication can still stand as good a watch as anyone else, then I can't really argue with them.  I was just pointing out that each medication, each drug, has to be talked about individually and not lumped together as though they're all the same...which is what appeared to be happening with the comments made about depression drugs and standing watch.

I can say you are dead wrong, because you are.  How do you know that pot will not impair your ability to stand watch?  Just because in the past, somebody may have stood watch after smoking pot and nothing happened doesn't mean they weren't impaired; just like guys who stand an inattentive watch and nothing happened doesn't make it right to do so. 

BTW, when I went to nuke school in 1985 my section advisor told us stories of nukes lighting up walking out of the school buildings in Orlando.  Then some pilots crashed some planes on an aircraft carrier and autopsies revealed marijuana in their system and the navy drug testing program was born.  This is an oversimplified historical account but I think it is relevant.  Some of the crustier nukeworkers are more qualified to discuss this.  WRT depression drugs, current testing says they are psychotropic which makes them nuke and sub disqualifying.  A better topic might be what percentage of guys and gals are feigning depression to get prescribed these drugs in order to get out of their obligations.   
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
T. Roosevelt

Offline cincinnatinuke

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Re: a few questions...
« Reply #36 on: Oct 25, 2008, 04:54 »
A better topic might be what percentage of guys and gals are feigning depression to get prescribed these drugs in order to get out of their obligations.   

Why?  It changes nothing.  The perception will always exist that a servicemember did it to just get out and whether its true or not they still get the boot.  When I was first diagnosed with depression I spent the first few months explaining over and over again what I was feeling.  The doc on the boat didnt ask how he could help, he just quzzed me.  Squadron doc, same thing.  Docs at the clinic, same thing.  Amazing thing happened when I went to Balboa Hospital away from the sub community guys, someone started to listen and develop a plan for treatment.  So imagine my suprise upon returning to the boat one day and being asked to turn in my TLD.  Little did I know that I effectively ended my career right then and there.

Yeah I am crying foul and no I am not saying you had anything to do with this Derek.  I just wonder what purpose knowing those statistics serves?  I still think I could have served, but rules are rules.  I come to peace with it knowing it happened like this for a reason.  I didnt miss much in the 1 1/2 years I didnt serve except a trip to Portsmouth, NH to decommision the boat......which I think I would have enjoyed.  But my marriage was probably not going to last another navy move.  Heck it almost didnt last through our last move home and out of the navy.

BTW I am just ranting here.

Offline DDMurray

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Re: a few questions...
« Reply #37 on: Oct 25, 2008, 06:18 »
Why?  It changes nothing.  The perception will always exist that a servicemember did it to just get out and whether its true or not they still get the boot.  When I was first diagnosed with depression I spent the first few months explaining over and over again what I was feeling.  The doc on the boat didnt ask how he could help, he just quzzed me.  Squadron doc, same thing.  Docs at the clinic, same thing.  Amazing thing happened when I went to Balboa Hospital away from the sub community guys, someone started to listen and develop a plan for treatment.  So imagine my suprise upon returning to the boat one day and being asked to turn in my TLD.  Little did I know that I effectively ended my career right then and there.

Yeah I am crying foul and no I am not saying you had anything to do with this Derek.  I just wonder what purpose knowing those statistics serves?  I still think I could have served, but rules are rules.  I come to peace with it knowing it happened like this for a reason.  I didnt miss much in the 1 1/2 years I didnt serve except a trip to Portsmouth, NH to decommision the boat......which I think I would have enjoyed.  But my marriage was probably not going to last another navy move.  Heck it almost didnt last through our last move home and out of the navy.

BTW I am just ranting here.

CN,

Sorry about your issue.  Quite frankly I'm not qualified to debate whether depression should or should not be sub/nuke disqualifying .  What I can tell you is that at a conference of senior submarine nukes, the topic of dealing with depression came up.  Some doctors were giving out psychotropic drugs like they were OTC (at least that was the perception).  Guess what?  The number of guys with depression-related problems went way up at that homeport.  The leader also stressed that this made it even more important to pay close attention to our men to make sure we didn't put them in positions that:
1.  Made them feel like they had no alternative but do whatever possible to get off the boat.
2.  Put them in a position to resist medical treatment for bonafide problems, in fear of getting removed from the ship.

I've seen several depression cases while an EDMC and as a squadron EDMC.  I can tell you with some amount of confidence that at least four of these cases (two E-7, an E-9, and an E-6), were people trying to get off the boat quickly to get out of possible punitive actions.  Two of them are now back on boats after taking six months to a year off to get better.

In the end, I believe most people try to do the right thing.  Being on spec op on an SSN is not a good time to find out that somebody with depression does not have adequate medical treatment available on board. 

DM
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
T. Roosevelt

Offline cincinnatinuke

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Re: a few questions...
« Reply #38 on: Oct 25, 2008, 09:00 »
You are absolutely right in regards to some doctors just wanting to issue meds right off the bat.  Initially I approached every medical appointment with apprehensions and reservations.  I would tell doctors I wanted treatment but no meds unless it was a last resort.  Well eventually I hit a bottom in my life (after I was already off the boat) and at that point I had no choice.  I was effectively ordered to take the medications.  Really with the choices I was making at that point in my life there was no reason I should have had a choice.  Point of this last paragraph?  I dont know.  I find my self in these last two posts just feeling like I should share this.

I am glad the Navy is discussing the issue in some capacity.  I did feel at times that the only way to get treatment was to get off the boat.  Like I mentioned before, many conversations I had with folks in my squadron dealt more with how they had seen guys do this before and was I trying to pull something similar.  Yet the doctors outside of squadron felt it was important to treat this condition with anti-depressants.  IOW, I felt one side thought I was just wanting to get out and the other side wanted to offer me a plan of treatment which would automatically disqualify me.  Interesting thing is when discussing drugs as an option, I was told many an important person have used them.  Captians, colonels, sailors, soldiers, pilots, etc.  Sometimes I wonder how many of them lost their NEC's or equivalent?


In the end, you are right completely with your last statement.  It has nothing to do with operating machinery or a nuclear power plant, to me.  The plant and my shipmates could and would have prevented me from doing something stupid to myself or the boat........THIS IS NOT SAYING I THOUGHT ABOUT SABOTAGING THE BOAT!  However, what realistic care and treatment could I have expected while performing ops somewhere?  I understood the sub DQ, but not the nuke.

Still the pill is hard to swallow.  I will one day, I am sure, have to answer to my kids about this.  Heck its tough to answer other nukes when they question this.
« Last Edit: Oct 25, 2008, 09:04 by cincinnatinuke »

Offline Already Gone

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Re: a few questions...
« Reply #39 on: Oct 25, 2008, 09:30 »
Caffeine is listed a a psychotropic drug.  So is alcohol.  Nicotine too.  Guess what.  NUTMEG has been used as a psychotropic drug.

Arbitrary decisions based on the judgment of unqualified individuals is the hall mark of the nuclear community both in and out of the Navy.

It is a matter of arrogance, really.  Somebody once taught these popinjays how to turn the right knobs on a panel that would split atoms.  Ever since then, they have believed that they know everything about everything.

The "No, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night" mentality of nukes is ludicrous.

I can hear the conversation.

"Are you a board certified physician, Commander?"

"No, but I can calculate an ECP with a HP 32SII RPN Scientific calculator.  So, I am more than qualified to diagnose mental illness."

Hardly.
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JsonD13

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Re: a few questions...
« Reply #40 on: Oct 27, 2008, 06:35 »
If they are not impaired by meds (i.e, they are not paying attention), their ability to respond to a stimulus such as an alarm or warning light will allow them to respond in the worst case time assumed by reactor protection analysis.  There is no way of predicting response times for those on meds. You are way off base here.

Derek,
   As someone who takes meds for depression, I can purely attest that my reaction time has not slowed because I take these meds.  I would rather have stayed in my job and dealt with these issues than be where I am now.  Only the Navy has this rule, and RPA would not be affected because of someone on these type of meds.  This rule in the Navy is an old, antiquated rule that should be phased out.  If it were gotten rid of, we wouldn't have any of the problems of people "faking" their depression (or better yet, their peers and superiors not believing them because of the stigma and loss of work of someone taking meds). 
   I'm also wondering how the RPA engineers predicted a response time.  Do they have like a "reference man" as in dosimetry?  I understand that taking too much time would allow severe damage, but would gamble that they designed this time based upon equipment limitations and not how long they think it would take a non-medicated person to turn a switch.


Jason

PapaBear765

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Re: a few questions...
« Reply #41 on: Oct 29, 2008, 05:10 »
I can say you are dead wrong, because you are.  How do you know that pot will not impair your ability to stand watch?  Just because in the past, somebody may have stood watch after smoking pot and nothing happened doesn't mean they weren't impaired; just like guys who stand an inattentive watch and nothing happened doesn't make it right to do so. 


Once again, you're accusing someone of being wrong when you have no place to do so.  Have you smoked pot?  If yes, then you incur the onus to explain how after smoking pot you feel you couldn't operate the plant.  If no, then you incur the onus to explain how you can claim that I'm "dead wrong" when you have no experience to make such a claim.  So which is it?

I've done pot.  So if you haven't, then you should really resist accusing someone who has done it of not knowing what he's talking about and defer to those with the relevant knowledge.  Just as I'm deferring to JsonD 13 since he "takes meds for depression" and I don't.  Know your limitations.

PapaBear765

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Re: a few questions...
« Reply #42 on: Oct 29, 2008, 06:13 »

Anyone who advocates letting people operate a plant while high is either:

1.  An idiot
-or-
2.  trying to stir the pot...i.e being a troll
-or-
3.  Both 1 and 2

Your statements incur the same responsibility to explain them, since there is obviously a disagreement and therefore not a given truth that your assertion is accepted by all.  So...explain yourself.

Offline Preciousblue1965

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Re: a few questions...
« Reply #43 on: Oct 29, 2008, 07:09 »

Anyone who advocates letting people operate a plant while high is either:

1.  An idiot
-or-
2.  trying to stir the pot...i.e being a troll
-or-
3.  Both 1 and 2

What about all those times that the sister duty section has had to come back to the ship at 1900 the night before getting underway and every one of the oncoming watches were, at best, 4 sheets to the wind.  Not trying to advocate or promote pot usage, just trying to bring a little fairness to the discussion.  I would wager a few quatloos that there are at least a dozen stories from members of this forum in which their physical condition was "less than ideal".  Heck I know some people who couldn't start up worth a flip unless they had a few.
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JsonD13

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Re: a few questions...
« Reply #44 on: Oct 29, 2008, 07:57 »
I've smoked weed and I've gotten drunk.  I would not allow anyone on my watchteam to operate under the influence of either. 

Imagine this scenario:

PO3 RO is sitting his panel high out of his gourd.  All of a sudden, LOCA happens.  He looks at his panel for a second or two, to get an idea of what the heck is going on.  He then realizes, Holy Cow! the plant is going to crap!  What does he do?  Nothing.  You know why?  He felt the way his cheek muscles felt when he made the "Oh Crap" face and is trying to replicate the feeling because they felt funny.

Also, have you ever tried to drive being high??  I sure have, and I definetly went alot SLOWER than the speed limit.  Reaction time aside, why would you want to operate so slowly???


Jason

Offline Preciousblue1965

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Re: a few questions...
« Reply #45 on: Oct 30, 2008, 07:51 »
I once heard a convicted drunk driver say that he actually thought he drove better when he was drunk.......then one day he killed an entire family of 6 while driving impaired.  Spare me your ridiculous parallels here.


Anyone who states that drunk people operate a plant better then sober people is either:

1.  An idiot
-or-
2.  trying to stir the pot...i.e. being a troll
-or-
3.  Both 1 and 2


ok fair enough.  I was just pointing out that there are often times that watchstanders are inebriated and operating the plant.  It happens, even though it shouldn't, most of the time it is for a start up leaving a foreign port.  Hopefully you have some good oversight and you can find enough watchstanders that aren't as bad as some others.  I would not advocate watchstanders on pot simply because it is an ILLEGAL substance, both in military and civilian terms. 

GC, I don't feel that I am an idiot of trying to stir the pot, just trying to point out other aspects that have merrit in this conversation.  Once again I reitterate that there are most likely several(if not most) of the persons on this forum that have operated while "less than ideal", and most likely someone was in that condition during a startup for which you were on watch, whether you knew it or not. 
"No good deal goes unpunished"

"Explain using obscene hand jestures the concept of pump laws"

I have found the cure for LIBERALISM, it is a good steady dose of REALITY!

Khak-Hater

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Re: a few questions...
« Reply #46 on: Oct 30, 2008, 10:47 »
Not to derail this wonderfully passionate "drugs are wonderful"/"drugs are the devil" discussion, but it brought to mind an interesting difference in basic operational safety principles.  So, if you will allow me to go off on a tangent for a moment, you may find this interesting.

When I was the Ops Engineer at RBS, I was assigned to be the liaison for a Japanese visitor, a former Ops Manager from a plant outside of Tokyo, who was spending a few months benchmarking our power plants prior to going back to serve as the plant manager.  He was a perfectly charming little fellow, who not only wished to learn from how we did things, but to share their wisdom on operating principles. 

One day, he asked me if we did "point and call."  While his English was much better than my Japanese, his thick accent made it hard to always understand his questions.  After much discussion, he conveyed to me that "point and call" was the process of pointing to a switch or button prior to actuating it, then clearly stating the proposed action, then, upon acknowledgement of the action, actuating the switch or button.  Being a good ex-squid, I immediately answered an emphatic "yes."  In return, he asked "why?".  I immediately answered:  (1) to assure clear communication of actions and the state of the plant; (2) to minimize human performance errors due to actuating the wrong component; and (3) to give someone else the opportunity to catch a wrong action before you take it.  He nodded his head and said "no."  His answer was "To slow you down."  He conceded that "point and call" did all of those things that I listed, but its primary purpose was to slow down the operator's response to transients. 

His outlook was that the plant was designed to protect itself, and all that an immediate operator response could do was screw up the plant's designed response to the transient (e.g., TMI).  In exciting situations it is easy to speed up your actions beyond your capacity to check your work.  His point was, that with nuclear plant design, reactor protection functions and all, it is better for the operator to do nothing than it is for him to do the wrong thing.  Therefore, his primary purpose for "point and call" was to slow the situation down [for the sake of being slow].  I found his perspective to be interesting, but, until you all began talking about the importance of operator reaction time, I didn't understand what bothered me about it.  It's that the Navy program credits immediate operator actions for reactor safety far more than is credited in commercial plants. 

Anyway, back to your drugs or no drugs discussion, but to quote from one of my favorite albums:  "I don't need no arms around me, and I don't need no drugs to calm me.  I have seen the writing on the wall.  Don't think I need anything at all."

MGM

Offline DDMurray

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Re: a few questions...
« Reply #47 on: Oct 30, 2008, 06:47 »
Anyone who equates being excessively tired to being drunk is either:

1.  Very smart
- or -
2. Trying to facilitate a decent discussion
- or -
3.  Both 1 and 2

Seriously.....you've hit something that I know has affected all of us. 

There hasn't been a ship I've served on where buried some where in the CO's Standing Orders was a direction to not relieve the watch if you were excessively tired.  During my non-nuclear conventional SWO tour, CO standing orders actually stated that you were not to relive the watch if you hadn't gotten at least 6 hours of sleep in the last 24 hour period nor were you to turn over the watch to someone who you knew hadn't gotten the requisite amount of sleep.


Ummm.... nobody ever pulled that card as an excuse to not stand the watch however.


I agree that standing watch tired, though a way of life for many of us, is an area of concern.  Here's the difference in my mind:  Underway you stand watch with others who can help keep you busy and alert.  In port, most boats station an "alertness watch" to make sure the SRO stays awake and alert.  If you are drunk or on drugs (prescribed or not), having extra people around you cannot stop you from being impaired.

In general, the navy has taken some pretty big steps to minimize making guys stand watch with inadequate rest.  There have been huge improvements since my days of port and starboard duty days during one-crew SSBN refits. 

DM
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
T. Roosevelt

Offline gsmagnum

  • Light User
  • **
  • Posts: 35
  • Karma: 38
Re: a few questions...
« Reply #48 on: Oct 30, 2008, 09:01 »
From an MM and Coal plant operator standpoint, I have to say that I disagree with a slow response being best.
If you are having a loss of feed casualty, you want the Operator to be able to act quickly.
As far as depression meds, I would think that they could build a list of meds with the least amount of fatigue and other side effects. (Paxil comes to mind) The biggest issue is that the sailor suffering from depression would realistically need to be under supervised care to set the meds up which would be similiar to a CAC Level 3 stay.

PapaBear765

  • Guest
Re: a few questions...
« Reply #49 on: Oct 31, 2008, 05:44 »
Perfect example of how to tell someone to fix themselves without being a jerk.

+K to you.

And all I said was for the guy to proof read his posts, I didn't call him names like "idiot" or recommend that I shouldn't have ever been born.  Guess it's more of that double standard officers are good for.

For a bunch of guys who will jump at the opportunity to point out a sailor has no business comparing a commercial SRO to a navy EOOW, you have no problem talking about the affects of marijuana without having tried it yourself.

What's meant by accusing someone of stirring the pot?  Does that mean that the accused is making comments simply to be inflammatory for no good reason?  Isn't that called playing the Devil's Advocate instead?  Either way, this is a discussion forum, right?  Shouldn't we be doing more than "Yes, I agree, mostly," "You're pretty much right," etc.?  Forgive me for trying to carry on a discussion.

People who make personal attacks during a conversation are either:

1. Innately dumb
- or -
2. Have nothing genuine to add
- or -
3. Both 1 and 2

 


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