ADHD: Truth v. Lie

[Vanguard_Blue]

To set the stage for this discussion, let me explain the depth of my motivation. I want to join the armed services more than I have ever wanted anything in my life. Any obstacle I face standing between me and this goal is to be seen as something to conquer. Unfortunately for the stressed and unsure, some obstacles have multiple paths upon which they can be overcome and that is why I am here.

Now obviously I want into the Nuclear Program of the Navy or I would not be here. My family has a strong presence in this program and I want to continue this both for tradition and the more tangible training benefits. I took my ASVAB yesterday and suddenly found that the entire recruitment office had assumed the position of 'my best friend, when they found that I had scored a 93. My line scores are not in yet, but even if do not meet that requirement I know that I will be able to dispatch the NAPT with little trouble.

All of this speaks in my favor, but the real issue is that despite this, I have ADHD and have taken medicine for it up until three months ago. Now, mind you, that this is not the ADHD diagnosis that overburdened teachers give to rowdy seven-year-olds with the same frequency as gold stars. This is the 'He has been pacing back and forth for a straight hour while reading a book' variety. I can control myself just fine when I need to, but it is what it is.

Now then, the official policy for ADHD is that you have to be off of the medicine for one year before you can apply for service. Both my Recruiter, a Petty Officer, and the person who I presume manages the day to day of the office, Chief Petty Officer, have both advised me to lie to the MEPS about my ADHD in violation of the policy, explaining that the military has no way of checking.

This is the issue is that I am afraid that if I go into the Nuclear Program that they will pull my medical records to check for my security clearance and then run me out with a dishonorable discharge for fraudulent entry. On the other hand, If I act the boy scout I will need to put my life on hold for nine wasted months

Is this particular policy a serious matter? What are the chances that I will get caught if I go in under this kind of lie? What are the chances that I will get caught? Is it worth the risk? I would especially like the input of officers, former officers, or anyone who has dealt specifically with fraudulent entry concerns.

[retired nuke]

Don't lie. It'll come back to bite you somewhere. 

Work on yourself through behavior modification until your year off meds is done. Nuclear power school and pipeline is stressful, unless you have the ADHD well under control on your own, it could surface in ways not faorable to you while in school.

Then revisit the recruiters. Recruiters that encourage prospective recruits to lie only have their own number goals in mind, not the Navy, not the recruit.

That being said, it wouldn't hurt to spend some of this time working on college classes. It'll better prepare you, and may lead you in another direction. There are a number of civilian paths into nuclear power.

Good luck.

[Vanguard_Blue]

It is a pretty obvious violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, Article 84, but I am not going to be the one to ruffle any feathers with an official complaint if my future is going to depend on a waiver decided on the arbitrary whim of some higher official.

That being said, I am still waffling on what I should do. Nine months is a lot of time to waste.

[Gamecock]

It is a pretty obvious violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, Article 84. I am not going to be the one to ruffle any feathers with an official complaint if my future is going to depend on a waiver decided on the arbitrary whim of some higher official.

Hold on, future shipmate......

The waiver approval or disapproval will not come from your recruiters office. 

In the nuclear power program, we are trained to do what is right even when no one is looking.

You have failed the first test, in my opinion.

[Mike_Koehler]

    Please, Please, Please wait at least the 9 months....... I have been diagnosed with ADD/ADHD for the past 33 years and have been aware of a problem with my thought mechanism for 9 years before that. I was never medicated (my parents don't believe in meds for that) and I have learned over time how to work within my limitations. I went through the nuke pipeline and if I hadn't had some time to learn how to focus and complete tasks, I would have failed. Nuke School was a struggle for me.
     I would strongly suggest taking some Community College Science/Math classes while off the meds to learn how to focus on class work. Nuke School moves much faster than most other courses and if you have a loss of focus day, you could have a hard time recovering.
     I won't even go into the moral issues other than to say that the recruiter needs to be fired.


Mike Koehler

[withroaj]

It is a pretty obvious violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, Article 84, but I am not going to be the one to ruffle any feathers with an official complaint if my future is going to depend on a waiver decided on the arbitrary whim of some higher official.

That being said, I am still waffling on what I should do. Nine months is a lot of time to waste.

Based on the fact you're having trouble with this decision I think you have great potential.  Many just do what the recruiter recommends and lie about pre-military issues to avoid the waiver pain-in-the-buns.

Since you know the right answer the debate should go away.  Do the right thing.  You got off to a good start by asking the question.

Nine months is a drop in the bucket, I promise.  I'm about to pass six years in the Navy and it feels like I just got started.  Wait it out and come in to the game with your head held high.  Then you win.

[Mike_Koehler]

That being said, I am still waffling on what I should do. Nine months is a lot of time to waste.

I am beginning to question whether you have the required integrity to do the job....... You need to do what is right, regardless of the consequences. That was (when I was in) a cornerstone of the program.

Mike

[Gamecock]

I am beginning to question whether you have the required integrity to do the job....... You need to do what is right, regardless of the consequences. That was (when I was in) a cornerstone of the program.

Mike

It still is. 

[Vanguard_Blue]

*Sigh*

I know it is disappointing to hear this from a prospective recruit, but you have to understand that these two things happened yesterday, literally within an hour of each other.

I walked out of the testing center feeling on top of the world only to walk straight into a brick wall. Surging confidence after the ASVAB and then the crushing blow that I would have to wait nine months because of something I didn't know about or face a major ethical violation.

So, yeah, at the moment it seems like wasted time. I probably will not feel that way in a week, but it is what it is and I am not going to act gung ho about waiting when I am horribly disappointed.

[Mike_Koehler]

So, yeah, at the moment it seems like wasted time. I probably will not feel that way in a week, but it is what it is and I am not going to act gung ho about waiting when I am horribly disappointed.

See my previous post about ADD/ADHD and nuke school and consider Community College courses. Astronomy is a good one...... Good choice

Mike

[Mike_Koehler]

What to do with his nine months

[withroaj]

You could also save money and study U.S. history on your own.  Read the Constitution of the United States of America.  Read the Declaration of Independence.  Read the Federalist and Anti-Federalist Papers.  Look up Hyman G. Rickover (the Legendary Father of the Nuclear Navy).

If you learn about how cool the job really is, and about the Republic you intend to serve, it helps the sucky parts (yeah, there are a few things about Navy Nuke life that aren't so great) pass almost unnoticed.

By the way, you might want to get used to waiting if you want to be a Navy Nuke.  You'll get used to the philosophy of "hurry up and wait."  In fact, It'll drive you nuts from time to time.

[Vanguard_Blue]

I guess I always knew that I wasn't going to go through with lying. This is just a pretty devastating blow and I was probably just looking for a lifeline for my immediate gratification.

I suppose I will start by getting my line scores. It will be quite the bullet to swallow if, despite having a 'learning disability', I managed to qualify off straight line scores. I have a sizable number of credits for my community college as it is, but I suppose I'll go back and take the second Physics and Calculus classes.

I'm still not sure about filing a formal complaint. What do you guys think?

[Mike_Koehler]

I'm still not sure about filing a formal complaint. What do you guys think?

That would be a personal choice....... Very difficult to prove..........

Mike

[HydroDave63]

if my future is going to depend on a waiver decided on the arbitrary whim of some higher official.

If you can't handle the idea of someone higher in the Chain O' Command giving a result not to your liking... your serving in ANY branch of the Armed Forces will not be a good fit for you or the service.

[imthehoopa]

I too was told by a recruiter to lie about a medical condition to go to MEPS. I was semi-diagnosed with asthma. The medical record says "questionable as to whether or not he has asthma." I was given an inhaler for a "just in case" precaution. I never used the inhaler and never really had asthma. I was just out of shape in high-school and joined the wrestling team. I had trouble breathing... go figure. Well, the recruiter told me based on that I could just keep that off of my paperwork. I'm not one to take chances when the end result could be that I have to pay 10,000 and do some time. He left it off the paperwork... I went on my own to get the medical records that said I had been given an inhaler and got the doctor to write a letter to the effect of "He does not have asthma. He was just out of shape." When I was dropped off at MEPS and was given my packet, I changed it to the truth and inserted my medical history from the family doctor. Although it was something stupid, I could have been made to get a waiver or do a cardio stress test like a friend of mine did (both would have held me up for at least another month or so). A month or so delay is much better than having to pay 10 grand for something so stupid. Even worse would be not being allowed to serve. It all comes down to what you decide to do with your own situation. I'm glad I did what I did, and from your last post it looks like you'll be doing the right thing. Good choice.

I do know how you feel about the waiting, my friend. Just signed my contract a couple weeks ago. I was hoping to ship out as soon as possible (I was thinking December at the latest). I don't go to bootcamp until the end of April. I picked up just a couple community college classes and took up 3 different jobs to save up some money. I'm counting on staying busy to pass the time rather quickly. Good luck to you.

[Smooth Operator]

Innovations in the treatment of ADD.

[JustinHEMI05]

To set the stage for this discussion, let me explain the depth of my motivation. I want to join the armed services more than I have ever wanted anything in my life. Any obstacle I face standing between me and this goal is to be seen as something to conquer. Unfortunately for the stressed and unsure, some obstacles have multiple paths upon which they can be overcome and that is why I am here.

Now obviously I want into the Nuclear Program of the Navy or I would not be here. My family has a strong presence in this program and I want to continue this both for tradition and the more tangible training benefits. I took my ASVAB yesterday and suddenly found that the entire recruitment office had assumed the position of 'my best friend, when they found that I had scored a 93. My line scores are not in yet, but even if do not meet that requirement I know that I will be able to dispatch the NAPT with little trouble.

All of this speaks in my favor, but the real issue is that despite this, I have ADHD and have taken medicine for it up until three months ago. Now, mind you, that this is not the ADHD diagnosis that overburdened teachers give to rowdy seven-year-olds with the same frequency as gold stars. This is the 'He has been pacing back and forth for a straight hour while reading a book' variety. I can control myself just fine when I need to, but it is what it is.

Now then, the official policy for ADHD is that you have to be off of the medicine for one year before you can apply for service. Both my Recruiter, a Petty Officer, and the person who I presume manages the day to day of the office, Chief Petty Officer, have both advised me to lie to the MEPS about my ADHD in violation of the policy, explaining that the military has no way of checking.

This is the issue is that I am afraid that if I go into the Nuclear Program that they will pull my medical records to check for my security clearance and then run me out with a dishonorable discharge for fraudulent entry. On the other hand, If I act the boy scout I will need to put my life on hold for nine wasted months

Is this particular policy a serious matter? What are the chances that I will get caught if I go in under this kind of lie? What are the chances that I will get caught? Is it worth the risk? I would especially like the input of officers, former officers, or anyone who has dealt specifically with fraudulent entry concerns.

Easy answer... don't lie. Find something constructive/fun to do for 9 months.

Justin

[JustinHEMI05]

You have failed the first test, in my opinion.

+1.

Justin

[JustinHEMI05]

You could also save money and study U.S. history on your own.  Read the Constitution of the United States of America.  Read the Declaration of Independence.  Read the Federalist and Anti-Federalist Papers.  Look up Hyman G. Rickover (the Legendary Infamous Father of the Nuclear Navy).

If you learn about how cool the job really is, and about the Republic you intend to serve, it helps the sucky parts (yeah, there are a few things about Navy Nuke life that aren't so great) pass almost unnoticed.

By the way, you might want to get used to waiting if you want to be a Navy Nuke.  You'll get used to the philosophy of "hurry up and wait."  In fact, It'll drive you nuts from time to time.

Fixed it for ya. 

Justin

[JustinHEMI05]

I guess I always knew that I wasn't going to go through with lying. This is just a pretty devastating blow and I was probably just looking for a lifeline for my immediate gratification.

I suppose I will start by getting my line scores. It will be quite the bullet to swallow if, despite having a 'learning disability', I managed to qualify off straight line scores. I have a sizable number of credits for my community college as it is, but I suppose I'll go back and take the second Physics and Calculus classes.

I'm still not sure about filing a formal complaint. What do you guys think?

I would just walk away from the situation for 9 months.

Justin

[JustinHEMI05]

Innovations in the treatment of ADD.

That is how I remember things being handled. LOL  I won't give my opinions on ADHD/ADD/hyperactivity or any other medicated childhood "disorder" here. 

Justin

[deltarho]

Vanguard_Blue

As I was reading your initial post, I couldn't help noticing that your writing style was similar to any you might find being submitted for an English class essay assignment.  It was well composed, albeit with a few errors, but not your typical internet forum endeavor.  This bodes well of your capacity to do well in the program.

Moreover, it was obvious to me by what you wrote that you already knew that being asked to lie was WRONG!  This bodes well of your capacity to do well in the program.

However, I'm a little miffed that you came to us to get permission to lie.  Why didn't you consult those in your family that you commented about being in the program?  I believe you already knew what they would say, but didn't want to hear that answer.

Let me tell you something that you can learn from...

When I was a section adviser at NFAS, sailors in my two sections were implicated in underage drinking.  I won't go into how they were indicted, but I called them in one-by-one to ask them two questions:  "Have you been underage drinking and who have you been underage drinking with."

Every one of them said "yes" that they had been underage drinking.  Every one of them gave me a laundry list of names, most of them I already had from a previous source.

Extremely long story short...every one of them was not denuked.  When the Department Head asked me my recommendation for their disposition, I told them that they passed the integrity test and I needed to prove to them that what we taught them was true.  That is, you are allowed to be stupid and make mistakes (for which you may have consequences), but don't ever lie, cheat, or steal.  They all got EMI, hard card entries to ensure that a recurrence would forever seal their fate, and mandatory 35 hours for the duration of NFAS.

Your life lesson will go unnoticed by most, but you dragged us into it.  I say that although you ruminated about what you should do, the fact that you did not carry out the ruse is in your favor.  However, your character flaw is that you are willing to allow a mob to potentially undermine you.  We are that mob that you sought out to pass the blame onto when you got caught in your lie.  As an analogy regarding this situation, you are no different than a 15-year old girl who was found out she went too far with a boy.   She will claim that it wasn't her fault, she isn't really a slut.   She was not responsible for her actions because she was high or drunk.  Well, why do you think she put herself in that position--plausible deniability.  Everyone except her sees right through that scam.

Grow up in these nine months.

[Preciousblue1965]

I won't add to the conversation of whether you should lie or not.  If you haven't found the answer to that question by now, you probably don't need to be a nuke to start with. 

However I will give you some advice on what to do in the mean time.  If you really REALLY want to get a slight idea of what the NNPP pipeline is going to be like, go to your local Comm. College and take courses during the summer sessions.  Most summer sessions are abreviated, fast paced courses that meet for several hours every day of the week.  They usually last about 5-7 weeks per session with about 3 sessions over all.  Take 2-3 classes per session and you will have a glimpse of what the pace is for the NNPP.  Not only that, depending on what classes you take, it will put you on track to get your TESC NET degree that much sooner(TESC NET=Thomas Edison State College Nuclear Eng. Tech). 

P.S. I would recommend English Comp I, II Calc I, II, maybe some Chem. and Physics as well. 

[rlbinc]

The odd part is, a generation ago the diagnosis didn't exist. We have some rather successful people in the industry who have at some time displayed those symptoms, particularly earlier in life. I'm no doctor, but I know that gifted children in an unchallenging environment have been diagnosed ADHD. Given more to do, physically and mentally, they generally find the medication unneeded. The Navy ought to look at this differently. One of the sharpest SROs I have ever worked with was temporarily treated as a young man. Fortunately, an interested school teacher saw him tone down under medication and brought up challenging alternatives to his parents.
If I were you, I'd forget the past and go for what you want.

[DDMurray]

Vanguard_Blue


Moreover, it was obvious to me by what you wrote that you already knew that being asked to lie was WRONG!  This bodes well of your capacity to do well in the program.

However, I'm a little miffed that you came to us to get permission to lie.  Why didn't you consult those in your family that you commented about being in the program?  I believe you already knew what they would say, but didn't want to hear that answer.

Let me tell you something that you can learn from...

When I was a section adviser at NFAS, sailors in my two sections were implicated in underage drinking.  I won't go into how they were indicted, but I called them in one-by-one to ask them two questions:  "Have you been underage drinking and who have you been underage drinking with."

Every one of them said "yes" that they had been underage drinking.  Every one of them gave me a laundry list of names, most of them I already had from a previous source.

Extremely long story short...every one of them was not denuked.  When the Department Head asked me my recommendation for their disposition, I told them that they passed the integrity test and I needed to prove to them that what we taught them was true.  That is, you are allowed to be stupid and make mistakes (for which you may have consequences), but don't ever lie, cheat, or steal.  They all got EMI, hard card entries to ensure that a recurrence would forever seal their fate, and mandatory 35 hours for the duration of NFAS.


Grow up in these nine months.

DR,
This response should be moved to how to fix the NNPP.  Your example of how to save guys from getting kicked out of the program also demonstrates one of the things wrong with "fixing" things at the lowest possible level.  How does assigning someone extra study hours teach them a lesson?  It may be a deterrent to some, but who decided that this punishment fit the crime?  Study hours should be assigned based on academic performance.  Putting these guys on 35's is bad for a number of reasons:
1.  The message to everyone else is 35's are a punishment.
2.  How much studying did these guys do on 35s?  Some of them likely distracted other students who couldn't afford to be distracted.
3.  You've established a right to appeal a CO's punishment given at NJP.  If the CO busted or withheld advancement for somebody else guilty of the same offense at NJP, that person could appeal that decision based on the punishment you gave out.
  As a two-time instructor/section advisor at NNPS, this looks like an attempt to get out of really dealing with some potentially serious offenses.  Were you trying to save these guys, save work or did you not trust the chain of command or did you think this would make you look bad?

WRT ADHD, if you can control yourself when you want, why don't you want to control yourself all the time?  There are plenty of other ways to support and serve, but if you have a bonafide medical condition that can cause you spaz out under stress, being a naval nuke is not for you.  Lying to the recruiter might get you into the program, but sooner or later your problem would surface.  Better off telling the truth and seek other opportunities in my opinion.

Derek Murray

[G-reg]

For starters, I don't see your waffling as a weakness or a sign of trouble to come.  Temptation and pressure happen.  Feeling yourself being tempted isn't a crime.  In the end, what matters is what you actually do.

For those of us that have been around the block, "what to do" in the face of temptation or pressure has been exercised and honed to the point where it has become a snap decision for us - and THAT is the yardstick by which you are being measured.  (Get used to it - it will become YOUR yardstick too in a few years.)

But at the present time, you had (what was for you) a tremendously difficult decision to make.  IMHO, you did exactly the right thing - you thought it through very earnestly, and you asked for help.  My hat is off to you for that, and I'm happy that you made the right decision in the end.

This is just my thinking, but I would not pursue a formal complaint.  At best, it will only come down to a case of he-said/she-said.  There are other ways to deal with this.  One of my own personal favorites is to address the individual with: "I know that I must have misunderstood you, because if you really just said _____, then you would get your a$$ nailed to the wall - so I know that was NOT what I just heard come out of your mouth, was it???"  In my experience, that usually has the dual effect of letting the other party know that A) I'm not going to 'play ball', and B) yes that does put them in a position of getting their a$$ nailed to a wall, so they better get back to the straight-and-narrow.  And finally, it does give them the option of "coming back into the goodness and light" in the end.  DISCLAIMER: Individual results may vary.  I only throw this out there as an illustration of the fact that there are many, many other ways to deal with situations like this besides filing a formal report.  You are only limited by your imagination.

Karma to you here on the forum, and my sincere best wishes to you in real life.

 - Greg

[nuke_girl]

ok heres my two cents

only because you asked...

now i am not a navy nuke..but i am an HP in the commercial industry...with ADHD.... unbelieveable !! ..i try to keep a sense of humour about it..but as anyone who knows me ..they know this is correct..i am unmedicated by choice..my parents did not medicate me either...they believed diet modification worked..and i suppose it did.

anyway ..to lie or not to lie..i chose not to lie..i told the truth andddddddddd i get loads of jobs..commercial power might be for you !

i have some advice for you...first dont lie..you are setting yourself up later for drama..and also ..its kinda like denying who you are..its a condition...not who you are or what you stand for..( so dont lie cause you want to stand for honesty and integrity )

second..take college courses..when i went to college for Health Physics..it took a few tries to pass my Math classes...why?? because i couldnt sit still long enough to understand that learning the RULES of Higher Math was the key to success..like a language..and plus..i couldnt sit still.. but i learned how to focus and how to still my mind. and you can as well..just dont jump into it with expectations of having no issues from this..also..have yourself tested for food allergies..many many children are diagnosed with a hyperactivity disorder when in fact they have a reaction to food allergies...red ears are a tip off ...

third
life is a lesson ...learn it...dont allow yourself to be judged ....ive had one ******* be very mean ...but bet you i wont be going back there...and they ask me to every year.. Usually the plants love me because im a spaz and i do alot of extra work..because i cant sit still lololoolol

dont  set yourself up for failure after all the efforts of attending school because you felt the pressure to take the easy way out..sure its easy to lie..but dont you think it will catch up with you?..lies have a funny way of catching up with you..and its not gonna be pretty if that one surfaces.

Its because i didnt lie ..that i can post this and try to give sane advice from an ADHD point of view.

im totally stoked that you came to this forum and asked for help..its what we are here for..altho im not completely diggin the reference to the teenage slut issue ( ahem ) inappropriate ..but i do see the point that was trying to be made.

Life is a lesson..learn it ~!

[bdhoe]

It is never a question about one's ability to judge a recuiters integrity..there is little..as for the question never lie..don't..if you tell the truth you can never be caught lying and to be a liar and full of misinformation is..well we all know so to all the young nukes listen to all of us..Integrity it is like a bucket of water the more you spill it on some the more they use it(I hoped it was sought by others when I left..) I know the old sayings I was a SNOB (Shortest Nuke On Board) so I should be the last one to stop you, but if you feel you want to do it then have fun...I would do it again....more cowhat!

[deltarho]

DR,
This response should be moved to how to fix the NNPP.  Your example of how to save guys from getting kicked out of the program also demonstrates one of the things wrong with "fixing" things at the lowest possible level.  How does assigning someone extra study hours teach them a lesson?  It may be a deterrent to some, but who decided that this punishment fit the crime?  Study hours should be assigned based on academic performance.  Putting these guys on 35's is bad for a number of reasons:
1.  The message to everyone else is 35's are a punishment.
2.  How much studying did these guys do on 35s?  Some of them likely distracted other students who couldn't afford to be distracted.
3.  You've established a right to appeal a CO's punishment given at NJP.  If the CO busted or withheld advancement for somebody else guilty of the same offense at NJP, that person could appeal that decision based on the punishment you gave out.
  As a two-time instructor/section advisor at NNPS, this looks like an attempt to get out of really dealing with some potentially serious offenses.  Were you trying to save these guys, save work or did you not trust the chain of command or did you think this would make you look bad?

Derek Murray

Derek,

Very interesting.  On the surface, I would agree with you on much you wrote, but you weren't there.

1).  The extra hours were requested by the students.  First one came and asked for it and then he went back and talked to his buds--and they, asked for it.  Both sections knew what the deal was.  They wanted it mandated that they put in time at school so that they would not be tempted to repeat their offense.  I once had a student when I was teaching physics ask me to put him on mandatory Saturday morning study.  I refused, telling him that he knew that he needed it so go on his own volition.  He didn't and failed the first test.  After that I made him attend the following two Saturdays and gave him every extra homework package we had.  He then scored a 98% on the subsequent test, which allowed him to pass overall.  So, I learned that when someone asks for help, because they know they won't follow through on their own, to help them.
2).  I never punished anyone; only the Commanding Officer has that privilege.  EMI is instruction and the extra hours were by their request.  As for setting a precedent for future NJPs...NJP is exactly that--NON-Judicial Punishment, which requires only a 51% burden of proof to award punishment.  This particular CO (who happened to become a 2-star Admiral) always asked the charges if they had any mitigating circumstances that they would like him to consider before he rendered judgement.  Some may call them weasel words or opportunity for wiggle, but he was consistent. 
3).  You make it sound as if I did this covertly with a great deal of stealth.  I assure you that the whole chain of command was apprised of the situation, especially with regard as to how we were initially tipped off.  Moreover, my reputation was not in question.  I showed up to the command as a surface E-6 and left there as a Senior Chief Petty Officer.  I had no problem with performance management, the chain knew I was thorough and drew a firm line.  For example, my first evaluation at this Submariner-infested command as a Chief Petty Officer had me ranked 11 out of 63.  I progressed from there.
4).  The EMI was related to the offense, requiring a one-page report about how drinking under age is against the law and a violation of the UCMJ and a plea why they should be allowed to continue in the program.
5).  As for getting out of doing work...it would have been much more simple to hand them over to the Master at Arms for processing to go to Captain's Mast.  I would have just had to attend mast and close out their records.  With the route I took, they all had to go to the DAPA (one had to attend Level I treatment), which I had to document in their white jacket.   Also, every one of the 13 individuals' white cards had to have the event documented in detail for future reference (if needed) at NPS and NPTU, which took two days to complete.

To change gears a bit, I wanted to illustrate that although you think I gave a sterling example:  "Of how to save guys from getting kicked out of the program also demonstrates one of the things wrong with "fixing" things at the lowest possible level."  This is not a one size fits all world.

By what you wrote, I assume you believe all performance issues need to be handled by someone at a higher level to ensure they are appropriately handled.  When I was at NSSF, yet another Submariner-infested command, it seems that this idea was very rampant.  So, I guess it may be a sub-culture philosophy.  Nonetheless, to the point==>  There was a discrimination complaint against the command that the majority of personnel going to Captain's Mast were black.  Investigation found that this was indeed true, more than 2:1 blacks versus whites--BUT--they were dismissed at that same ratio.  The whites were twice as likely to be awarded punishment than the blacks.  What was learned from this was that the middle managers (read CPOs) didn't want to deal with the black sailors and opted to have the CO  sort things out.  He did. 

There was a wake like what must have been seen at the parting of the Red Sea.  The CO promised a personal chat with every CPO and DIVO prior to mast to glean the merits of the case.  Subsequent EEO surveys showed that the perception of discrimination was squashed and the average mast numbers stayed about even for the whites and dropped by about 60% for the blacks.

I hope I illuminated the situation a bit more such that your sense of justice no longer feels violated.

deltarho

[DDMurray]

Derek,

Very interesting.  On the surface, I would agree with you on much you wrote, but you weren't there.

1).  The extra hours were requested by the students.  First one came and asked for it and then he went back and talked to his buds--and they, asked for it.  Both sections knew what the deal was.  They wanted it mandated that they put in time at school so that they would not be tempted to repeat their offense.  I once had a student when I was teaching physics ask me to put him on mandatory Saturday morning study.  I refused, telling him that he knew that he needed it so go on his own volition.  He didn't and failed the first test.  After that I made him attend the following two Saturdays and gave him every extra homework package we had.  He then scored a 98% on the subsequent test, which allowed him to pass overall.  So, I learned that when someone asks for help, because they know they won't follow through on their own, to help them.
2).  I never punished anyone; only the Commanding Officer has that privilege.  EMI is instruction and the extra hours were by their request.  As for setting a precedent for future NJPs...NJP is exactly that--NON-Judicial Punishment, which requires only a 51% burden of proof to award punishment.  This particular CO (who happened to become a 2-star Admiral) always asked the charges if they had any mitigating circumstances that they would like him to consider before he rendered judgement.  Some may call them weasel words or opportunity for wiggle, but he was consistent. 
3).  You make it sound as if I did this covertly with a great deal of stealth.  I assure you that the whole chain of command was apprised of the situation, especially with regard as to how we were initially tipped off.  Moreover, my reputation was not in question.  I showed up to the command as a surface E-6 and left there as a Senior Chief Petty Officer.  I had no problem with performance management, the chain knew I was thorough and drew a firm line.  For example, my first evaluation at this Submariner-infested command as a Chief Petty Officer had me ranked 11 out of 63.  I progressed from there.
4).  The EMI was related to the offense, requiring a one-page report about how drinking under age is against the law and a violation of the UCMJ and a plea why they should be allowed to continue in the program.
5).  As for getting out of doing work...it would have been much more simple to hand them over to the Master at Arms for processing to go to Captain's Mast.  I would have just had to attend mast and close out their records.  With the route I took, they all had to go to the DAPA (one had to attend Level I treatment), which I had to document in their white jacket.   Also, every one of the 13 individuals' white cards had to have the event documented in detail for future reference (if needed) at NPS and NPTU, which took two days to complete.

To change gears a bit, I wanted to illustrate that although you think I gave a sterling example:  "Of how to save guys from getting kicked out of the program also demonstrates one of the things wrong with "fixing" things at the lowest possible level."  This is not a one size fits all world.

By what you wrote, I assume you believe all performance issues need to be handled by someone at a higher level to ensure they are appropriately handled.  When I was at NSSF, yet another Submariner-infested command, it seems that this idea was very rampant.  So, I guess it may be a sub-culture philosophy.  Nonetheless, to the point==>  There was a discrimination complaint against the command that the majority of personnel going to Captain's Mast were black.  Investigation found that this was indeed true, more than 2:1 blacks versus whites--BUT--they were dismissed at that same ratio.  The whites were twice as likely to be awarded punishment than the blacks.  What was learned from this was that the middle managers (read CPOs) didn't want to deal with the black sailors and opted to have the CO  sort things out.  He did. 

There was a wake like what must have been seen at the parting of the Red Sea.  The CO promised a personal chat with every CPO and DIVO prior to mast to glean the merits of the case.  Subsequent EEO surveys showed that the perception of discrimination was squashed and the average mast numbers stayed about even for the whites and dropped by about 60% for the blacks.

I hope I illuminated the situation a bit more such that your sense of justice no longer feels violated.

deltarho

DR,
You are right, I wasn't there.  You bring up some interesting points along with some opinions that are better CPO quarters discussions.  I must say that your disdain for submariners is obvious.  Why aren't there more surface nukes at NNPS?  Is that the submariners fault?  My guess is that they simply can't or won't meet the requirements to screen for duty.

To say submariners pass all problems to higher level is hogwash.  13 students engaged in underaged drinking is not something that falls under let the Chief handle it, in my opinion.  Your NSSF example is an entirely different subject. 

Your other anecdotes are examples of other ways to skin a cat.  For example, if I were to make an underage drinker write an essay, I would make him write a letter to a make believe mother of the person he killed, explaining why he chose to ignore all the training he had received warning him of the pitfalls of drinking.  I did a similar thing to a guy who violated electrical safety requirements.  No, I didn't turn him in to the CO.

When I was a section advisor I was responsible for writing up the mast package and submitting it up the COC.  It was a lot of work.

Your policy of allowing students to request 35's to stay out of trouble is not as big a deal as I made of it.

Most CO's I've ever had asked for mitigating circumstances before rendering judgment.

Your NJP argument is weak.  If a different section advisor wrote up an underage drinker up and the CO took money or withheld advancement, the accused would have grounds for appeal based on your students getting EMI for the same offense.  There is no 51% burden of proof requirement for NJP.  There can be 99%, or even a 100% proof of guilt and the CO can still dismiss the charges.    For a serious charge, if there's a chance of guilt the CO can find guilty of a lesser charge or pass it on to the JAG.

Great discussion to have over a beer at the club or over a cribbage board in the CPO quarters.

DM

[deltarho]

DR,
I must say that your disdain for submariners is obvious. 

To say submariners pass all problems to higher level is hogwash.  13 students engaged in underaged drinking is not something that falls under let the Chief handle it, in my opinion.  DM

No disdain at all.  I purposefully included these comments tongue-in-cheek to illustrate that a written forum is more susceptible to reader prejudice and filters.  Why?

Well, experts say that communication is composed of different methods: words, voice, tone, and nonverbal clues.  According to research, in a conversation or verbal (of words) exchange:

Words are 7% effective
Tone of voice is 38% effective
Nonverbal clues are 55% effective, which include:
 
• Body language (you cannot see me),
• Emotion of the sender and receiver (you cannot hear me),
• Other connections between the people (e.g., friends, enemies, professional similarities or differences, personal similarities or differences, age similarities or differences, philosophical similarities or differences, attitudes, expectations) all emphasis mine.

In other words, WHAT you say is not nearly as important as HOW you say it!  And so, in a forum environment such as this, one must understand that, by default, everyone is about 7% effective in communicating.  Perhaps the root cause to your rush to judgement.

As for your opinion about at what level the problem should have been handled, I thought I made it clear (but probably was only 7% successful) that the Department Head came to me asking for my recommendation, not the other way around.

As for having a beer together, I hope to never again be in South East Connecticut--especially in the Groton/New London area.  I won't even go to Foxwoods or the Mohegan Sun.

Cheers!

[Preciousblue1965]

Lets see

Deltharho's Stream

               ____
             /        \
     O    /            \
     \l/ /               \
      l /                  \
     /\                     X
SubnukeDerek's Stream
               ____
             /        \
     O    /            \
     \l/ /               \
      l /                  \
     /\                     X

Both yellow streams look even to me, I guess that means it is a draw.

[HydroDave63]

I thought I made it clear (but probably was only 7% successful)

decay heat after shutdown?

[Mike_Koehler]

Lets see

Deltharho's Stream

               ____
             /        \
     O    /            \
     \l/ /               \
      l /                  \
     /\                     X
SubnukeDerek's Stream
               ____
             /        \
     O    /            \
     \l/ /               \
      l /                  \
     /\                     X

Both yellow streams look even to me, I guess that means it is a draw.

Funny..... to you

[DDMurray]

Lets see

Deltharho's Stream

               ____
             /        \
     O    /            \
     \l/ /               \
      l /                  \
     /\                     X
SubnukeDerek's Stream
               ____
             /        \
     O    /            \
     \l/ /               \
      l /                  \
     /\                     X

Both yellow streams look even to me, I guess that means it is a draw.

I am appalled by this.  It is not accurate.  Deltarho is standing while he pees. 

DM

[DDMurray]

No disdain at all.  I purposefully included these comments tongue-in-cheek to illustrate that a written forum is more susceptible to reader prejudice and filters.  Why?

Well, experts say that communication is composed of different methods: words, voice, tone, and nonverbal clues.  According to research, in a conversation or verbal (of words) exchange:

Words are 7% effective
Tone of voice is 38% effective
Nonverbal clues are 55% effective, which include:
 
• Body language (you cannot see me),
• Emotion of the sender and receiver (you cannot hear me),
• Other connections between the people (e.g., friends, enemies, professional similarities or differences, personal similarities or differences, age similarities or differences, philosophical similarities or differences, attitudes, expectations) all emphasis mine.

In other words, WHAT you say is not nearly as important as HOW you say it!  And so, in a forum environment such as this, one must understand that, by default, everyone is about 7% effective in communicating.  Perhaps the root cause to your rush to judgement.

As for your opinion about at what level the problem should have been handled, I thought I made it clear (but probably was only 7% successful) that the Department Head came to me asking for my recommendation, not the other way around.

As for having a beer together, I hope to never again be in South East Connecticut--especially in the Groton/New London area.  I won't even go to Foxwoods or the Mohegan Sun.

Cheers!

DR,
You are too smart for me.  Department Head came to you?  The more I think about this, the more it reaks.  In my "rush to judgment" and attempt to limit the length of my response, I didn't ask some other questions:
1.  Where did they get the beer?
2.  How did they get caught?
3.  Did the department head make the call on this?  Was the CMC involved with the decision for EMI and "hard card entries"?
4.  If only one guy went to alcohol treatment, how would the command handle a second alcohol-related incident from one of the other ten?

Like you said I wasn't there.  If I was in this situation I think, based on my limited knowledge of the situation, I think I would have likely written them all up.  If I thought they were worth saving, I would tell that to the CMC, XO, and CO.  I would prefer the CO tell each of them that the only reason they were being retained and not busted, was due to their potential and strong recommendation of the section advisor.  I would make darn sure that each guy was screened for alcohol dependency so that I knew I wasn't passing this problem to NPTU or the fleet.  During my first tour I would have given each of them 3.4 in two areas of their eval.  This would prevent them from volunteering subs.  During my second tour, I'm not sure how NJP got documented, or if it would be sub disqualifying. 

BTW during my section advisor tour I had an underage drinker get busted at mast about week 4.  He was screened by the DAPA and became a model student and leader, by example, in the classroom.  Just before graduation, he got his crow back.  While on leave between NPS and NPTU, he got a DUI on leave in Georgia.  The day he was supposed to drive off for NPTU he went into his parents house, grabbed a gun, got in the car with the motor running and shot himself in the head.  His training folder was gone over with a fine tooth comb to make sure we had done everything possible to prevent this tragedy.  Though I was never accused of any wrong doing, the NCIS guys basically implied that I could have prevented this if I had "really" cared about the guy and got him the help he obviously needed.  Hard pill for a boot Chief to swallow.  That was in 1992.

DM

[sunman]

Hi Vanguard_Blue,

I might be too late in posting this, as you may have already made your decision.  Anyhow, I just happened to see your posting and, as it so happens, had just completed an article that I felt might help.

First, I'll just say that you need to go in 'clean' -- no cover-ups.  My suggestion is, that after reading the following, make your decision based on truth and take it from there...here we go:   

Summary of Article:  With reference to ADHD -- meaning people, in the main, with attention, behavior and learning problems. There is a lot of contention with the populace as to whether psychiatric drug treatment is the route to take in treating ADHD, or holistic/nutritional/medical treatment, (without the use of psychiatric drugs).  This article gives insight on both forms of treatment together with suggestions on how to decide which treatment is best.
 
So-called “ADHD” (Attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder) was classified and voted into existence in 1987 by the American Psychiatric Association (APA).

In the main, ADHD relates to people having attention, behavior and learning problems.  These type problems, of course, have been around since time immemorial!  Treating these type problems the psychiatric way, involves the prescribing of potentially very high-risk drugs (like Ritalin, Adderall, Concerta, etc.)

Alternative methods for treating people with attention, behavior and learning problems (ADHD) is holistic/nutritional/medical, without the use of psychiatric drugs.

Based on the research I’ve carried out, there is contention, (disagreement and arguments), within the public marketplace as to which route to take, either: 1) The psychiatric way with their drugs or: 2) The holistic/nutritional/medical way, without the use of psychiatric drugs.         

At the end of the day, to arrive at a rational conclusion on this problem, (as with any situation in life), statistics need to be viewed to evaluate the best course of action to take -- either treatment program 1) or 2) above.  This evaluation to include: 1) The effects created from ingesting psychiatric drugs, prescribed for attention, behavior and learning problems, or similar ('ADHD').  And: 2) The effects created from alternative treatment methods, (holistic/nutritional/medical), without the use of psychiatric drugs.

My conclusions from statistics viewed, (arrived at after intense research carried out), are as follows:

1) Without question, the ingestion of psychiatric drugs is a 'hit or miss' affair or ‘a shot in the dark.’  These drugs, (Ritalin, Adderall, Concerta, and similar) -- even though, possibly at times, giving the apparency of ‘working,’ have potentially high-risks of adverse effect(s) occurring, (short or long term).
So, is this type of treatment a method with overall safety and a 'fair bet'?

Compared to:

2) Holistic/nutritional/medical - (as outlined in Dr. Mary Ann Block's book ‘No More ADHD,’ and similarly by many other Dr’s. of her ilk across the world).  These methods involve locating the source of the problem, and treating accordingly (without, of course, the use of psychiatric drugs).  These actions are a least intrusive methodology, without any 'potential high-risks' involved.
Do these types of treatment methods provide overall safety and are they fair bets?

Result of 1) above -- with statistics of uncertainty as regards the outcome, (based on the suffering that has occurred and is continuing to occur), this is an unfair bet and carries with it a high-risk potential for suffering!

Result of 2) above -- with very good, continued statistics of success from these types of treatments, this is a fair bet and very safe!

Conclusion:  The action of ingesting psychiatric drugs is potentially dangerous!
The action of locating a very good holistic/nutritional/medical Dr., (that carries out similar successful actions as Dr. Mary Ann Block), that has a past high success rate in treating patients with attention, behavior, learning or similar problems (without the use of psychiatric drugs) is the way to go!

My recommendation: anybody with attention, behavior or learning problems, carry out the necessary research to arrive at their own rational conclusion as to what course of action to take in treating the problem.

Or, if anybody is already taking psychiatric drugs for these or similar problems, I recommend they, or somebody on their behalf, carry out new or further research and arrive at a rational conclusion as to what course of action to take.

You should be able to obtain sufficient statistics from research on the Internet.

All the very best,


sunman


I became alert to the problems of the mislabeling of ADHD (Attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder) and the prescribing of psychiatric mind-altering drugs, like Ritalin, to our children, when a very good teacher friend of mine told me about the various problems several of her students were having taking the drug Ritalin. I then read Dr. Mary Ann Block's book 'No More ADHD' which gave startling information on the horrendous potential harmful effects created by these type psychiatric drugs and at the same time gave excellent alternative solutions in assisting children with attention, behavior and learning problems - please read a report at http://www.adhdtruth.com

In my further research I came across many resources for alternative effective help, including Drs. and like professionals, many books on the subject, Drug prevention, Education resources and so on. Please visit: http://www.adhdtruth.com/testimonials.html web page to view the many resources available.

After gaining insight into this very uncool state of affairs, I felt it my duty to inform as many people as possible of this catastrophe in the making.  My reasoning:
This generation and future generations of children are in extreme danger!  This in turn places everybody else in danger!