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Offline popdaddy

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time is right for a union
« on: Apr 29, 2009, 08:56 »
UNITED WE STAND,DIVIDED WE BEG.... NOW IS THE TIME FOR ALL PEOPLE IN THIS BUSINESS TO FORM A UNION. IT'S IN OUR BEST INTEREST TO DO THIS.BEING AND OLD TIMER IN THIS INDUSTRY I WISH THE HP'S,DECONNERS ECT.. WOULD HAVE FORM THIS A YEARS AGO WHEN WE WERE PAID DESENT WAGES BUT NOW VALVE TECHS,CARPENTERS AND EVEN SOME FIREWATCHS MAKE MORE THAN US.WE HAVE NO PENSION,VACATION PAY,HEALTH INSURANCE JUST LOWER WAGES.THE REASON BEING THAT WE ARE AFRAID OF THE BARTLETT'S,ATLANTIC AND ALL THE REST.THIS IS THE TIME TO STRIKE AND HOLDOUT FOR ONE HAVE ANYONE SEEN THE AMOUNT OF WORK COMING AVAILIBLE.
« Last Edit: Apr 30, 2009, 04:46 by Rennhack »

Offline Marlin

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #1 on: Apr 29, 2009, 09:17 »
Please adhere to this Forums rules, rule # eight is:

8. DON'T TYPE IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS, IT IS THE ELECTRONIC VERSION OF SHOUTING AT PEOPLE.

http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,4700.0.html
« Last Edit: Apr 29, 2009, 09:19 by Marlin »

hatrai07

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #2 on: Apr 30, 2009, 02:45 »
It will never happen, period.  I was one of the leaders for the "action' in 1989. I made a promise to myself then that I would never swing a meter again if we were not successful.  We weren't and I haven't.  Didn't leave the business, just went in other directions within the business.  Best thing that ever happened to me.  Since then I have had more fulfilling positions, improved my skills and abilities and more importantly ( to most people) made a lot more money. Have made north of $100/hr many times and have never worked for less than $50/hr ( currently @ $90/hr).  There is one exception, post strike, I took a job as a decon tech making $8.50/hr because I was going to stick to my word to never work alongside my 'brothers' again.  I used this time to prepare for life after RP. If you want more, you too should prepare for life after RP.  If you love the job too much to leave it, then don't but you will never change it.

Khak-Hater

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #3 on: Apr 30, 2009, 05:13 »
I thought the whole idea of being a contractor in this business was to get as much money for your individual services as the market would bear.  A union seems contrary to this concept.  Maybe you don't want to be a contractor?  Besides, remember the story that Jesus told about the grape pickers.  I can just see Jesus getting slapped with a grievance because he paid the dudes who came later a higher hourly wage.  If you're happy with the pay that you agreed to, then be happy with the job.  If not, find another one. 

If you think that the problem lies with the contractor companies (e.g., Bartlett), then, rather than forming a union, form your own company and offer the workers a better cut or benefits package [I have a friend that successfully did this in the DOE realm].  If what you propose is viable, then you'll succeed and make things better for everyone.  If not, then you'll fail, and, in doing so, find out that the system works just as it should. 

Good luck,

mgm

Offline Already Gone

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2009, 09:30 »
Back to the subject, the time has always been right for some kind of change - union or otherwise.

The question that comes up lately is, "what union?"

IBEW didn't give much help 18 years ago, which is why I didn't walk with my coworkers.  But, I did support unionizing my plant when I was a house tech.  It didn't work either.

Today, there is an organization that calls itself a union circulating some literature.  They call for you to walk out or hold out and work only for one company.  This organization has not ties whatsoever to the recognized labor organizations.  To me, it looks like a "back-door" strategy to push this one company into the place of Bartlett and Atlantic.

Notably absent in their literature is any mention of benefits, dues, training, or any of the other things offered or required by a union.  All they promis is that you will get more per hour and GSA per diem if you work for a particular company.

Smells fishy to me.  The same strategy failed a few years ago when a particular company implored RP's to hold out so that Bartlett and Numanco, et. al. would be unable to staff.  Then, he figured to swoop in with the hold-outs at higher pay and per diem.  He is a decent guy with his heart in the right place but the whole strategy was just plain dishonest and could have hurt some folks financially.

The current version seems even more under-handed and I wouldn't go there if I were you.

Just my $.02.

Bud has a point, though.  He's doing alright where he is.

Khak-Hater, you are correct that getting as much as you can as quickly as you can is a good thing, but that is just not happening in the current environment.  Union Laborers have a much better package than contract RP's.  You also have to consider the value of things like health insurance, annuities, pensions, and training that are provided by unions when you are tallying up the financial gain that you expect from working.  But, maybe President Obama will give those things to the techs and they won't need to get them from their employers or unions.
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Offline SloGlo

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2009, 03:47 »
popdaddy....
yinz wanna union?  meet with yer differant unions 'n finger out witch won will work for ya.  git support in writing.  git a local together.  den come bak in hear with watt ya got. 
aye ain't bean hard frivollusly.  butt, dere has bin many threads about union forming here.  dint due no good.  bin a cupla union forming actions in da market place.  dint do know good. 
ya wanna do good 'n git a union?  git one. 
then git it filled.
eye no it's a different weigh two do this.  alla udder ways didn't work.
time to go outside da box.


 
quando omni flunkus moritati

dubble eye, dubble yew, dubble aye!

dew the best ya kin, wit watt ya have, ware yinze are!

Offline retired nuke

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2009, 04:30 »
not confused,...just a nub,.... ;)

dam! it felt good to say that!!!!!!, in a sick, sorta wrong, but strangely satisfying way,...

heheheheheheh,.... 8)

Dang, gotta wait till tomorrow to +K you for that one.... ;)
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Remember that you will die, and that this day is a gift. Remember how you wish to live, may the blessing of the Lord be with you

jjordan

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2009, 08:08 »
Oh boy here we go again! I'm prepared to take some more lumps! The IBEW would be the logical choice here, for several reasons. The most important is support. The are already established, and represent about two thirds of the utility HP's. That's a great support network. They have the neccesary financing to support an organizing campaign. This will be very costly, and I'm speaking from experience. There were previous threads addressing this subject, and polls that I started. Roughly half are for, and half against. You need a much larger percentage for this to happen. Lots of the head hunters really don't care if you are union or not. If you get a colective barganing unit, and negotiate higher wages, do you think they will absorb this out of their margin of profit? Not hardly, the utilities will have to pony up, as they should! Who do you think is responsible for the short outages, decreased hours early layoff, etc. Contractor companies don't make a dime if you aren't working, and most contacts they probably make a percentage of your wages. !0% of $35.00, is better than 10% of $23.00 about what you currently make. A good contractor is worth more than your average house tech. Thats me. I don't have a dog in this fight, so remember that when you take your cheap shots! I think I can handle them though! I've walked in your shoes and feel your pain. I also see the opportuity that you have and find it very difficult to believe that it hasn't happened already. I work at a non union plant, and I flat out make at least $10.00/ hr more than you, if not closer to $15.00. I have benefits, you have a few, but nowhere near as good. The union plants almost all do even better. The main reason I make the wages I make is because of my union brothers. If my utility doesn't remain competitive with the other utilities, everyone will leave for better wages elswhere. The whole key to making this whole thing work is the definition of the word union. In this context it means together, there is strength in numbers. You all have to hang together. You can't negotiate a better package by yourselves, or you would have already done that, and I wouldn't be posting this here right now! Wake up!!! Get a little bit of control of your own destiny. You all deserve it, go get it!
JJ 8)
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 08:11 by JJordan »

Offline Already Gone

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2009, 08:24 »
I agree with your sentiment JJ.  But I strongly disagree with the idea that the IBEW being the house union for most utilities and having more resources makes them the union of choice.  Those things were true in 1989, and they gave very little toward the effort.  House techs mostly stayed out of it, and there woas no organization to their organizing.  They'd all be better off talking to the Teamsters, Carpenters, or Laborers.
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Offline namlive

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2009, 07:47 »
The first thing that would have to happen is the Employee Free Choice Act would have to pass congress. Arlen Specter, who was against the bill has swapped parties. Ironically, if he wants to get elected as a Democrat he will have to support the bill or die in the primary. If I was serious about a union, I would be mounting a letter (e-mail etc.) campaign aimed at Specter.

Once it is just a matter of signing cards, it should be easy. What is important is that we learn from the mistakes made by the IBEW years ago and move forward.
No one gets out alive.

jjordan

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2009, 10:07 »
Beercourt,
I'm amamber of the Laborers local #833, have been since 1975. I don't believe they would be the right choice. I'm one of them and am eternaly gratefull to them, but don't believe they could pull it of. I was the union steward back when we had the so called IBEW walkout in the 90's We didn't walk because we were union. They took our dues, and didn't even furnish me with a working phone number. I had to go it alone. Not sure about the teamsters either, they have issues. The IBEW freely admit that the campaingn was botched, The problem was that the people that formed the VOC (Volunteer Organizing comitee) were very loosley supervised. They took it upon themselves to call for the walkout. The IBEW only uses or condones a walkout as a last resort. We had just started negotiating when they pulled this stunt. I went to some of the meetings at BV. The VOC ended up being a bunch of self serving B__tards that thought that they could secure some cushy union posiitions and not have to swing a meter again. This stunt has cost us dearly, but there is a lesson to be learned here. Your union is only as good as your elected officials. This is where unions get a bad rap. The wrong people get incontrol, and that's every bit as bad maybe worse than bad management. You can't let that happen, and if it does, you have to correct it by voting them back out. I believe that the other union soliciting support are just what I described. The are self appointed and want the power and control at the members expense. The IBEW is interested in the contractors and have been observing things here. They don't want to invest millions, yes millions in a loosing campaign. There isn'y enough support to warrantt the expenditure. They do represent 2/3rds of the house techs. They didn't play a role the last time because we self destructed long before the IBEW could call on them for support! Thet will help, I would help if I could, but there isn't a strong enough backing to pull this off. You'll have to go hungry for a good while longer before you all stop stabbing each other and cuttingg each others throats and learn to work together for a common goal. If ther is interest I will help. I know who to call and will help withthe organizing, and like i said, I don't have a dog in this fight, so I have nothing to gain here. A lot of the contractors know me and should trust me. I'm noyt hiding, my handle is my name. If you think that thees posts go unnoticed you are sorely mistaken. They are avidly read by all of the utilities. i have been rewarded for some post, but have paid a price for my pro unionn stance!!!
Thanks,
JJ 8)

MR BIG

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2009, 10:56 »
Beercourt,
I'm amamber of the Laborers local #833, have been since 1975. I don't believe they would be the right choice. I'm one of them and am eternaly gratefull to them, but don't believe they could pull it of. I was the union steward back when we had the so called IBEW walkout in the 90's We didn't walk because we were union. They took our dues, and didn't even furnish me with a working phone number. I had to go it alone. Not sure about the teamsters either, they have issues. The IBEW freely admit that the campaingn was botched, The problem was that the people that formed the VOC (Volunteer Organizing comitee) were very loosley supervised. They took it upon themselves to call for the walkout. The IBEW only uses or condones a walkout as a last resort. We had just started negotiating when they pulled this stunt. I went to some of the meetings at BV. The VOC ended up being a bunch of self serving B__tards that thought that they could secure some cushy union posiitions and not have to swing a meter again. This stunt has cost us dearly, but there is a lesson to be learned here. Your union is only as good as your elected officials. This is where unions get a bad rap. The wrong people get incontrol, and that's every bit as bad maybe worse than bad management. You can't let that happen, and if it does, you have to correct it by voting them back out. I believe that the other union soliciting support are just what I described. The are self appointed and want the power and control at the members expense. The IBEW is interested in the contractors and have been observing things here. They don't want to invest millions, yes millions in a loosing campaign. There isn'y enough support to warrantt the expenditure. They do represent 2/3rds of the house techs. They didn't play a role the last time because we self destructed long before the IBEW could call on them for support! Thet will help, I would help if I could, but there isn't a strong enough backing to pull this off. You'll have to go hungry for a good while longer before you all stop stabbing each other and cuttingg each others throats and learn to work together for a common goal. If ther is interest I will help. I know who to call and will help withthe organizing, and like i said, I don't have a dog in this fight, so I have nothing to gain here. A lot of the contractors know me and should trust me. I'm noyt hiding, my handle is my name. If you think that thees posts go unnoticed you are sorely mistaken. They are avidly read by all of the utilities. i have been rewarded for some post, but have paid a price for my pro unionn stance!!!
Thanks,
JJ 8)

Thank you for your honesty. But just like this site has done in the past. I get booted off and my post doesn't even get looked at. Well, maybe it did. And that's why it's not on here.
I don't know why I'm even writing this? They won't post it! Rennhack, PM me and I will fill you in and ask you "Why do you allow people to delete posts in an OPEN forum". And it's NOT off topic. Need a better answer.

Offline btkeele

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2009, 11:01 »
First off, I am not against a union, I walked out at Trojan....
But, I am 100% against the "employee free choice act" as it is taking away
secret ballots which will lead to coercion and intimidation by current union
members and organizers.  The bottom line is everyone is free right now to
make their choice.....

Offline Already Gone

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2009, 07:36 »
JJ, all I can say to your post is "right-on!"  I am in the same position - nothing to gain or lose either way - but I still care about the techs out there who are struggling to get by on less and less each year.  When everything was going good, I didn't need a union.  When the company started taking things away, I realized that it was already too late and I had missed the point of having a union to back me.
I really hope that the old gang of mine can get their act together for their own good.
But, I strongly caution them against falling for someone who is out to exploit them under the guise of helping them.

As far as the EFCA goes, don't fall for the spin that is coming from either side.  I'd have to read it more carefully before giving an opinion, but I won't let the hype, fear-mongering, or self-serving arguments of either party sway me.  It is better to form an informed opinion than to buy into someone else's.  All I know is that the intimidation and coercion comes from the company side too.  How else do you explain instances where 80% of the workforce signs cards and the election results in the union being voted down?  The organizers and the union busters are both players in the same game, and neither of them has any personal stake in your family's future.

Get the facts.  Form your own opinion.  Vote for what is best for you.
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Offline UncaBuffalo

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2009, 08:17 »
Beercourt,
I'm amamber of the Laborers local #833, have been since 1975. I don't believe they would be the right choice. I'm one of them and am eternaly gratefull to them, but don't believe they could pull it of. I was the union steward back when we had the so called IBEW walkout in the 90's We didn't walk because we were union. They took our dues, and didn't even furnish me with a working phone number. I had to go it alone. Not sure about the teamsters either, they have issues. The IBEW freely admit that the campaingn was botched, The problem was that the people that formed the VOC (Volunteer Organizing comitee) were very loosley supervised. They took it upon themselves to call for the walkout. The IBEW only uses or condones a walkout as a last resort. We had just started negotiating when they pulled this stunt. I went to some of the meetings at BV. The VOC ended up being a bunch of self serving B__tards that thought that they could secure some cushy union posiitions and not have to swing a meter again. This stunt has cost us dearly, but there is a lesson to be learned here. Your union is only as good as your elected officials. This is where unions get a bad rap. The wrong people get incontrol, and that's every bit as bad maybe worse than bad management. You can't let that happen, and if it does, you have to correct it by voting them back out. I believe that the other union soliciting support are just what I described. The are self appointed and want the power and control at the members expense. The IBEW is interested in the contractors and have been observing things here. They don't want to invest millions, yes millions in a loosing campaign. There isn'y enough support to warrantt the expenditure. They do represent 2/3rds of the house techs. They didn't play a role the last time because we self destructed long before the IBEW could call on them for support! Thet will help, I would help if I could, but there isn't a strong enough backing to pull this off. You'll have to go hungry for a good while longer before you all stop stabbing each other and cuttingg each others throats and learn to work together for a common goal. If ther is interest I will help. I know who to call and will help withthe organizing, and like i said, I don't have a dog in this fight, so I have nothing to gain here. A lot of the contractors know me and should trust me. I'm noyt hiding, my handle is my name. If you think that thees posts go unnoticed you are sorely mistaken. They are avidly read by all of the utilities. i have been rewarded for some post, but have paid a price for my pro unionn stance!!!
Thanks,
JJ 8)


I have to throw a flag on the sweeping generalization you make about the VOC.  You may have been right about some of them, but the one I knew was & is a great guy and a straight shooter. Things obviously didn't work out the way we wanted, but that doesn't mean that anyone was doing anything underhanded.
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Offline jjack50

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2009, 10:55 »
I have to throw a flag on the sweeping generalization you make about the VOC.  You may have been right about some of them, but the one I knew was & is a great guy and a straight shooter. Things obviously didn't work out the way we wanted, but that doesn't mean that anyone was doing anything underhanded.

Whether anyone was doing something underhanded or not they were sure not-competent in how they went about it. I was a contractor at the time and remember how sudddenly the walkout was called and the last minute expansion to go out against all of the "Bartlett" plants.
Most of us at Trojan at the time went out. Supposedly Bartlett offered to sign a contract with the IBEW for RP services at Trojan only initially and that was rejected by the IBEW. I don't know for sure that was true.
There was strong support from the plant RP techs and plant management (as much as they could considering they were not really a party to the negotiations). No one was fired or not allowed back in after we 'caved'. We DID get more money. The operation just fell apart after that.
The IBEW rep didn't seem to have many suggestions or much guidance for us. That's just how I saw it.
There WERE too many 'egos'  involved. It should have been a business situation and done in a business-like manner. I didn't see that. And just because we failed that spring we should not have stopped trying. But we did stop and here we are now.
The RP techs have the leverage if they can organize and use it.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 10:13 by jjack50 »

Offline btkeele

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2009, 10:30 »
Whether anyone was doing something underhanded or not they were sure not-competent in how they went about it. I was a contractor at the time and remember how sudddenly the walkout was called and the last minute expansion to go out against all of the "Bartlett" plants.
Most of us at Trojan at the time went out. Supposedly Bartlett offered to sign a contract with the IBEW for RP services at Trojan only initially and that was rejected by the IBEW. I don't know for sure that was true.
There was strong support from the plant RP techs and plant management (as much as they could considering they were not really a party to the negotiations). No one was fired or not allowed back in after we 'caved'. We DID get more money. The operation just fell apart after that.
The IBEW rep didn't seem to have many suggestions or much guidance for us. That's just how I saw it.
There WERE too many 'egos'  involved. I should have been a business situation and done in a business-like manner. I didn't see that. And just because we failed that spring we should not have stopped trying. But we did stop and here we are now.
The RP techs have the leverage if they can organize and use it.

You are exactly right on most of these points, especially about the lack of clear guidance, or any for that matter, most of us had no idea what we were doing, that is why we went back in.....
There were some job's lost shortly afterward though, they eliminated some Jr HP spots....

This fall should be interesting with all the outages over-lapping and with the new working hour limitations
(still a lot of confusion about this)....
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 10:35 by btkeele »

Offline Rennhack

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2009, 11:22 »
This fall should be interesting with all the outages over-lapping and with the new working hour limitations
(still a lot of confusion about this)....

Don't forget the fact that the DOE is sucking up hundreds of RCT's.

Offline justme

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2009, 11:06 »
Back to the subject, the time has always been right for some kind of change - union or otherwise.

The question that comes up lately is, "what union?"

IBEW didn't give much help 18 years ago, which is why I didn't walk with my coworkers.  But, I did support unionizing my plant when I was a house tech.  It didn't work either.

Today, there is an organization that calls itself a union circulating some literature.  They call for you to walk out or hold out and work only for one company.  This organization has not ties whatsoever to the recognized labor organizations.  To me, it looks like a "back-door" strategy to push this one company into the place of Bartlett and Atlantic.

Notably absent in their literature is any mention of benefits, dues, training, or any of the other things offered or required by a union.  All they promis is that you will get more per hour and GSA per diem if you work for a particular company.

Smells fishy to me.  The same strategy failed a few years ago when a particular company implored RP's to hold out so that Bartlett and Numanco, et. al. would be unable to staff.  Then, he figured to swoop in with the hold-outs at higher pay and per diem.  He is a decent guy with his heart in the right place but the whole strategy was just plain dishonest and could have hurt some folks financially.

The current version seems even more under-handed and I wouldn't go there if I were you.

Just my $.02.

Bud has a point, though.  He's doing alright where he is.

Khak-Hater, you are correct that getting as much as you can as quickly as you can is a good thing, but that is just not happening in the current environment.  Union Laborers have a much better package than contract RP's.  You also have to consider the value of things like health insurance, annuities, pensions, and training that are provided by unions when you are tallying up the financial gain that you expect from working.  But, maybe President Obama will give those things to the techs and they won't need to get them from their employers or unions.

Dues are $40/ month when not working, somewhere around 110+/ month when working (They are roughly basing dues on what people paid At Diablo last outage - this  is based on straight time and overtime (this was for contractors only, house dues were based on straight time only) ).   This gets you roughly $5/hour more when working for the specified new company (if they have contracts).  Still no other benefits mentioned.

You also are on a hiring or senority list.  Your place on the list depends on when you start paying dues to the organization.  Not sure what the dues will pay for in addition to the organizers salaries.

It is what it is!

Offline Already Gone

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2009, 12:14 »
The question remains, what about benefits, retirement, legal fund, contract negotiations with other companies, training, ... etc., etc., etc.?
What about the union affiliations?  Are they AFL-CIO?  Are they independent?  What legal standing would its members have under the FLSA?
WHAT RELATIONSHIP EXISTS BETWEEN THE LEADERSHIP OF THIS "UNION" AND THE MANAGEMENT OF THIS PARTICULAR COMPANY?  I know I'm shouting, but I mean to emphasize the importance of this particular point.  If the union and the management are husband and wife, it ain't no union, it's a rip-off.
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Offline SloGlo

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2009, 08:43 »
If the union and the management are husband and wife, it ain't no union, it's a rip-off.
$40 to git unemployement 'n $110 a month four 'n exta $5/our.... ain't really a rip off, moor like a kick back.
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Offline nowhereman

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2009, 08:09 »
oh no, here we go again...
imho..most legitimate unions have a bona fide training program, bona fide apprentice hours/ training system(somethings got to change, the bartlett/utility version of throwing some procedures at some dedicated deconners doesn't seem to be working well. How many times do I hear, we don't need any theory to do this job?)....(too many)

Then the argument of the various community colleges have their associates in nuculear engineering.....well thats just the pipeline to fill the attrition  spots from the utilities.
who is going to spend time and effort to get an associates, and then take the crap that bartlett offers the junior hp's?

until the process is legitimatized, then we may have a chance at stabilizing our wages, otherwise it will be so called putting the cart before the horse....in other words, what i have seen about this union is a waste of time....


Offline RTRT

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2009, 11:19 »
I was at Mcguire during the last so called organization attempt. A regional director of the IBEW came to talk to us. He held up a copy of the contract and said that they had sent it to all the contractor companies but none had signed it. He handed the single copy to us in the room to see. When we started going through it and taking notes from it he took it away from us. He then told us that it couldn't get in the wrong hands. Since they had already sent it to all the contractor companies, the "wrong" hands must have been ours. They also gave us a "hotline" phone number to call to check on the strike nationwide. We called the number and the first thing they wanted to know is what plant we were at. After that they started talking about percentages of people walking at other plants. We wrote it all down and split up the list amongst us depending on where we knew people to be working. At least 75% of what they told us was pure fiction. We called friends at plants that were supposed to be walking 100% and found that their first meeting was coming up in couple of days. I had a low opinion of the IBEW from working in house at Hanford and dealing with them that time sealed the deal to stay away from them. All they want is YOUR MONEY.

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2009, 08:17 »
I was at Mcguire during the last so called organization attempt.
i wuz at besse during da walk of da 90s.  we where under union contract and sew coodent go out.  i called all the national tv news every night during the main part of the walk out.... nbc, cbs, abc, cnn, ett set terra.  no won in any of those national news rooms had da slightest idea a national local union had called a strike.  i wood give da local 1500 800phonenumber to them.  thay never had a story on the air about that strike. 
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 08:17 by SloGlo »
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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2009, 03:04 »
Back to the subject, the time has always been right for some kind of change - union or otherwise.

The question that comes up lately is, "what union?"

IBEW didn't give much help 18 years ago, which is why I didn't walk with my coworkers.  But, I did support unionizing my plant when I was a house tech.  It didn't work either.

Today, there is an organization that calls itself a union circulating some literature.  They call for you to walk out or hold out and work only for one company.  This organization has not ties whatsoever to the recognized labor organizations.  To me, it looks like a "back-door" strategy to push this one company into the place of Bartlett and Atlantic.

Notably absent in their literature is any mention of benefits, dues, training, or any of the other things offered or required by a union.  All they promis is that you will get more per hour and GSA per diem if you work for a particular company.

Smells fishy to me.  The same strategy failed a few years ago when a particular company implored RP's to hold out so that Bartlett and Numanco, et. al. would be unable to staff.  Then, he figured to swoop in with the hold-outs at higher pay and per diem.  He is a decent guy with his heart in the right place but the whole strategy was just plain dishonest and could have hurt some folks financially.

The current version seems even more under-handed and I wouldn't go there if I were you.

Just my $.02.

Bud has a point, though.  He's doing alright where he is.

Khak-Hater, you are correct that getting as much as you can as quickly as you can is a good thing, but that is just not happening in the current environment.  Union Laborers have a much better package than contract RP's.  You also have to consider the value of things like health insurance, annuities, pensions, and training that are provided by unions when you are tallying up the financial gain that you expect from working.  But, maybe President Obama will give those things to the techs and they won't need to get them from their employers or unions.

I’ll respond to this in the best way I know without offending anyone. To start with, my Dad always taught me not to open my mouth until I got ALL the facts. Pretty good advice he gave me. So I would say to you Beercourt or anybody else on here that SEEMS like they know it all and has everything & everyone “figured out”, to GET THE FACTS! Has anyone actually called to talk to the people behind this? Have you researched the website? Have you asked any questions without forming your OWN answers? My guess would be a big NO!

It really gets me when people try and form opinions and they don’t even take the time nor have the decency to check out the facts. I, for one have. And I have found out that these people are actually trying to do something for us. They aren’t anti-Bartlett or anti-Atlantic, or anti anyone. They are just trying to do what Bartlett, Atlantic or for that matter anyone else, has failed to do for the last 20 years. And that is to get these utilities attention about RP & Deconners compensation. Every other trade (craft) in nuclear has kept up with pay increases, benefits and travel except us. For me, I don’t care whom I work for, as long as they are actively trying to get me the best deal for my services, or at least industry wide compensation. But they don’t seem to want to do that. If we continue to accept compensation at these levels, we don’t have any right to whine about it. But it’s really sad to hear these comments. Go back and read through some of these. My Lord! You all have a defeatist (negative) attitude about everything. What are you so suspicious about? You keep talking about what happened 20 years ago! Get over it folks. Move on and get a life. Maybe people didn’t organize it properly back then. Then is then. Now is now.

At least these folks are trying to do SOMETHING. And for you suspicious characters out there that say that….. all they want to do is take your money and sit on their butts, here are the facts. I know these people have been working on this every waking moment for the last 2 years doing research, talking to unions, attorneys, industry wide contacts and getting what they need to address ALL of the concerns I keep hearing being brought up in this forum. If you would just contact them direct, they would answer those concerns. Why would you be so negative & suspicious about being taken advantage of? Is that because it is the way you would do it? These people are solid and honest. In fact they would probably be upset for me sharing this, but they have also invested well over $30,000 of their own capital to get this off the ground. And we got these suspicious intelligent people out here that holler about $40 a month. We were paying $112 a month at Diablo and out of 120 techs didn’t hear 1 complaint about monthly dues!!!

Why should anyone care about what the people behind this are making? Does anyone ask what the Bartlett principals make? How about Atlantic people? Or Entergy folks? I for one could care less what they make. As long as they put more money in my pocket, more power to them. They make $100,000 a year and they put $40,000 extra a year in my pocket, you darn right they deserve it! Gosh, folks you guys can’t see the trees because of the forest!

Sorry for being so long. But this is my career. Everyone has the right to support a cause or not support it. But please, for the sake of all us techs out here, get all the facts before you go around shouting your opinions to everyone. Let me add one more thing. NO, I am NOT affiliated in any way with being one of the principals of this effort or board member. I am just a road tech for 31 years that is tired of having these utilities think our profession is less important than the rest of the craft/trades that come to their outages. At least this organization is trying to change that. I fully support that and hope & pray that many others will check it out and get on board with us. This is a great opportunity to come together for once and stop tearing down each other. This site (Nukeworker) was created years ago the help the fellow nuclear worker. Right? Well then, help…..don’t hinder. If you truly are out to help the nuclear workers, then get your good ideas and strategies together and let’s help each other out!  Why would you want to be negative about a better work environment? It just doesn’t make any sense. It also isn’t going to be built in a day. No, not all the benefits and advantages this thing will bring us are in place yet. It will take time. Just like anything else worth doing. But it has to start somewhere.

I challenge anyone to contact the NPUA and research the facts. It won’t cost you anything. Knowledge truly is power. But a lack of knowledge will cost you everything.

Good Luck to Everyone & God Bless!!!

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2009, 07:41 »
Once upon a time there was a larger need for a job function than there were trained individuals to fill that need.  Hence the job function paid very well and all were happy.  The lead time for training for an entry level position in this job function was very short, so many people, who wouldn't otherwise have any particular interest in performing that job, were drawn into performing it for the money, and good money it was, and many were happy and many more joined. 

Then, as things began to change, as they almost always do, the number of people trained to do the job had grown, and the need for the job had shrunk, and the pay for the job had also shrunk [for the same reason that it had grown in the first place].  Thus the job field was overfilled, with many of the people overfilling it having no particular love of the job itself, having only been drawn to it for the money which was no longer there.  These people, many of whom were now very experienced in the job having enjoyed the money through the golden years, now felt too invested in the job to change, even though the money was no longer there, and there was much sadness. 

They began to look around and ask "Why do we make less than those fellows?"  "Because those fellows band together."  "We should band together."  But these fellows are not the same as those fellows.  Never have been and never will be.  If they were, they'd be those fellows.

But they just want to do what they've learned to do, working with their friends, remembering when times were better.

Insert Zeppelin reference:

Theres a lady who's sure
All that glitters is gold
And shes buying a stairway to heaven.
When she gets there she knows
If the stores are all closed
With a word she can get what she came for.
Ooh, ooh, and shes buying a stairway to heaven.

Theres a sign on the wall
But she wants to be sure
cause you know sometimes words have two meanings.
In a tree by the brook

Theres a songbird who sings,
Sometimes all of our thoughts are misgiven.
Ooh, it makes me wonder,
Ooh, it makes me wonder.

Theres a feeling I get
When I look to the west,
And my spirit is crying for leaving.
In my thoughts I have seen
Rings of smoke through the trees,
And the voices of those who standing looking.
Ooh, it makes me wonder,
Ooh, it really makes me wonder.

And its whispered that soon
If we all call the tune
Then the piper will lead us to reason.
And a new day will dawn
For those who stand long
And the forests will echo with laughter.

If theres a bustle in your hedgerow
Don't be alarmed now,
Its just a spring clean for the may queen.
Yes, there are two paths you can go by
But in the long run
Theres still time to change the road you're on.
And it makes me wonder.

Your head is humming and it wont go
In case you don't know,
The pipers calling you to join him,
Dear lady, can you hear the wind blow,
And did you know
Your stairway lies on the whispering wind.

And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our soul.
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How everything still turns to gold.
And if you listen very hard
The tune will come to you at last.
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll.

I looked these lyrics up because I thought I'd quote the "Yes, there are two paths you can go by, But in the long run,there's still time to change the road you're on" line, but as I read it, I thought the whole thing was pretty applicable.

mgm


« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 07:43 by Khak-Hater »

Offline Already Gone

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2009, 11:04 »
Not that I'm one to turn the tables Mr. Big (can you hear the sarcasm in that?) but you should take your own advice.  I HAVE read the website entirely, including the contracts.  You should not make assumptions about what I have or have not done.

The benefits are cut and pasted from an insurance company's site - where there is any information at all, but most of them are "coming soon".

The contract is a standard collective bargaining boilerplate.  I might also add that the two companies who have signed "letters of understanding" have not actually signed this contract.  But that is okay.  There is nothing wrong with that.  It will be negotiated and changed before anyone signs it - which means that naturally everything that NPUA says they are going to get for you may not materialize.  This is true with any union.

The attitude that "at least they are doing something" prompts the question; are they doing the RIGHT thing?  What if all their good intentions end up costing the techs some money?  What if people hold out only to find out that the outage season happened just fine without them?  What if all the techs who don't hold out end up doing twice the work for the same low pay?  Then everybody gets screwed.

Next, the idea that the organizers have invested over $30,000.00 of their own money raises a red flag (no pun intended).  Nobody invests their own money without the expectation of some return on that investment.  A labor union is a non-profit organization that is funded solely by it's membership with no expectation of financial gain by outside investors.  If they put their own money into it, how can anyone believe that they are acting entirely for the benefit of the membership and not looking after their own financial interests?  Don't even try to tell me that they are putting up that money out of the goodness of their hearts, with nothing but the welfare of their fellow techs in mind.  Please!

If the movement lacks support to the point that private individuals need to supply the startup funding, it isn't likely to succeed.  If there was backing from a major labor organization like AFL-CIO, it would have a better chance.

Bartlett and Atlantic, et. al., have not failed over the past 20 years to get the utilities attention about compensation.  To fail, they would first have to try.  Why should they?  They are under no obligation whatsoever to be the guardians of your standard of living or mine.  Their mission is to sell the services that they provide and to provide the services that they sell.  They have done that.  Maybe they sold you and me a lot more cheaply than we would prefer, and maybe they paid us a lot less than we think we are worth, but we have always had the option to refuse.

Look, I am totally for the unionization of the techs - IF THAT IS WHAT THEY WANT!!!  And, I am totally against the exploitation of the techs by any party who sees their plight as an opportunity to profit from their misery.

That is what I think this particular organization is, whether they intend to be or not.  The companies who sign with them are just taking the back door into contracts that they cannot get because they are unable to compete.  I'll tell you this much; if you need another company's employees to jump ship en-masse in order to compete with them, you are not prepared to take their place.  If your business depends on the competition failing, you don't have a viable business.  That is why these rinky-dink firms with an address at Mailboxes Etc. are signing these letters.  Instead, they should be recruiting and training a group of people who can do a better job than Bartlett and Atlantic people can do (that would not be difficult).  If you can offer value, you will get your market share.  But if you offer the same low-value at a higher price just because you have cornered the market, you will collapse.

If this union were serious, they would be trying to organize the Bartlett and Atlantic techs, and getting a contract with Bartlett and Atlantic.  Instead, they are basically blackmailing the utilities into using these smaller companies because that is where all the techs will be.  Guess what?  They won't be there, and if they do go there, Bartlett and Atlantic will just find someone else to take their place.  Someone even less qualified then the ones they are using now.  But, they will fill the slots and collect their money.  The power plants will not pay a dime more than it costs, and the contract companies won't either.  Right now, it costs them very little - partly because they have rather low standards.  If a KMart tech will do, they will pay KMart prices for the service.  If they need something better, they may have to shop uptown, but they sure as hell won't be paying Neimann-Marcus prices for the same level of quality that they got under the flashing blue light.

This is why training is so conspicuous in it's absence from any NPUA literature.  Nobody is going to take them seriously until they can offer something better rather than repackaging the same crap at a higher price.  That goes for both the companies and the employees, by the way.
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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2009, 12:28 »
I do not disagree with either that excerpt or your characterization of it.  A Steward works for the union - that is: the good of all employees and not just the interests of one.  A supervisor works for the company, with its interests at the focus of his job.

When all goes right, both the steward and the supervisor can succeed for the good of the company and of the union - which BOTH depend on and support the employees.  This only has to get adversarial when one side or the other gets greedy or unreasonable.

I bet if you asked Bartlett how they feel about unionization, they will give the standard answer - that they don't need interference in the relationship between them and their employees.  But, the truth is that they probably wouldn't mind it at all as long as it remained professional.

But, go try to stab them in the back by having their employees jump over to Small Potatoes, LLC, and that isn't exactly going to make them want to be very friendly with you now, is it?
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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2009, 03:21 »
That's awfully nice of you.  I didn't really smite him for typing in all caps.  I did it because he didn't correct it.  I figure that he hasn't been back since he made his original post.  That kind of hit-and-run posting just irks me.
For the record, I would never smite anyone for a pro-union message.
I was talking this over with an old-timer who is a lifelong union craftsman.  His immediate response was "you people could have ruled the nuclear world if you had just gotten your s#!t together back in the 90's"  Boy, he was right.  HP's practically controlled the entire plant back then, and a stronger position would have meant not losing all that influence.  So, it seems that failure to organize has cost a lot more than appears on the surface of it.
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Offline RDTroja

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2009, 04:25 »
I also provided popdaddy with a 'negative Karma event' (how about that for politicalese?) based on the caps, his failure to acknowledge any input, failure to correct and a general lack of respect for the Forum.

I also would never smite for either supporting or not supporting a union... or for most any other opinion.

While I agree that many opportunities have been missed, I have to disagree that we would be wielding any additional power if we had unionized. We would probably have more money (at what cost, I do not know) but the power was headed to Operations because they are the only group that actually generates income. The overriding force that has brought about most, if not all, of the changes we are witnessing in the industry is deregulation and the dramatic change in the way utilities charge for services. Back in the day, the more a utility spent making electricity, the more they got in return. They were guaranteed a return on their investment by the rules that governed what rates were charged and what could be recovered. In most places that has been replaced with competition, bringing about a 180 degree turn in how HP expenses are viewed (and how outage lengths are viewed, as well.) Instead of being a source of additional income (that guaranteed percent of what they spent on us) we are now a cost. Economic forces now work against us instead of for us and the utilities are required (by fiduciary responsibility to their investors) to lower their costs to maintain and maximize profits. So we have shorter outages, quicker layoffs, and reduced staffing, both contractors and house. Operations generates electricity, so they wield the power.

It would have been nice to have had that power for a bit longer, along with a fatter paycheck, but I am pretty sure it would have cost some freedom, too. Maybe it would have been a good trade, maybe not. Unfortunately we were never able to find out after we got hung out to dry in 1990.
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atomicarcheologist

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2009, 03:00 »
It's probably past due time for union formation for HPs.  It may even be past time for deconners and clerical support staff of the RadPro group at the power plants.  With the outages so short, people are staying out of that area of the business unless they must take a quick job between longer term postions.  Power plants are getting bought up by the corporate conglomerates and formed into "fleets".  This enables the companies to float their own people to a plant which is down.  Foreign nationals are being imported to do the work.  Would they be interested in unionization?  Obviously the domestic workers are not jumping up and down for a union, why would a foreigner want to stand out at a plant and take the lumps?  No, I'm not seeing a union in the near future for this audience, and the longer view doesn't look any more promising.

Offline namlive

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2009, 07:26 »
A bad union is better than no union.

The secret ballot is over-rated. Card-check would be great.

Negative Karma for posting in all caps? Oh please! Someone does think highly of themself.  :P
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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2009, 10:07 »
A bad union is better than no union.

Better for who, exactly?  I'm a firm believer in organized labor and collective bargaining, but if you're going to offer me a "bad union" then I'm going to pass on your offer and go with the "no union" option.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 10:43 by G-reg »
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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2009, 12:11 »

The secret ballot is over-rated. Card-check would be great.


wood yinz vote without secrecy in all your polls?  vote in private is the american weigh.  vote in public is da way of da banana republic.
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Offline namlive

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2009, 09:54 »
wood yinz vote without secrecy in all your polls?  vote in private is the american weigh.  vote in public is da way of da banana republic.

Congressional votes are all public as are the votes of Supreme Court justices. Eating youself to death at fast food joints is the American Weigh, but that doesn't justify it.
No one gets out alive.

Fermi2

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2009, 10:53 »
Congressional votes are all public as are the votes of Supreme Court justices. Eating youself to death at fast food joints is the American Weigh, but that doesn't justify it.

Uh Congressional and Supreme court Votes are public because they are either Governmental Elected or Appointed Officials so we have a RIGHT guaranteed by our CONSTITUTION to know how they voted. Are you seriously that thick?

duke99301

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2009, 12:22 »
Did the navy have a union? they do have a sargent of arms right the marines?
 Any ways all kidding aside HP techs have no Formal training program or a way to show you would be a  a top grade tech. Other than a resume or some one says since you came in as an ELT you are a sr tech.  So how would you grade someone in from the navy give them top pay? Or make them start as an apprentice? or how would you handle a house tech who left his site and wants to work on the road ? would you let them buy a book ?
 Where would traning be held at? Those of you who work around the craft you know they have to go to school x amount time per year. Where would HP school be held at? Would you have an at large local or ???
How would you handle a call list ?
yes it would be a lot of work to put this in place in the long run people would have  some benfits but how many hours do you have to put in a year to have your medical paid for the year? what about  retirement?
Some unions allow you to get your own jobs others  want you to come off the list.
Now now if you go work for say one of the HP companys did they sign an agreement?  you can have all the unions you want but if the company that pays you is not signed it will be hard.
A union workers package is about say $72 an hour to cover all the bennys and they do not get per diem. ( unless it someplace that has agreeded to it.)
Unions are ok but there is a lot of ground work to be put in place now can you get 25 techs to agree on one thing at once?  I am not sure but for now is there a BA who wants to go to bat for the HP's?
I do not have the answer just a lot of questions where do we go from here?
good luck  not trying to start anything just asking.

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2009, 12:40 »
It's impossible to calculate, because at least two of the variables aren't known: minimum training for the job description, and minimum staffing for the duties.

As long as plants can deputize secretaries and design engineers to cover portal monitors and frisking, it lowers the bar on qualifications. Someone desiring all-union all-the-time would need to make a good case to the NRC and OSHA why this doesn't meet 10CFR20.

Staffing, one would need to demonstrate to NRC and OSHA how having too few techs covering too many jobs is unsafe from fatigue or heat stress. Something tangible.

Without those variables, trying to reverse engineer a potential wage and benefit structure to everyone's satisfaction won't be possible.

Offline namlive

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2009, 03:56 »
Uh Congressional and Supreme court Votes are public because they are either Governmental Elected or Appointed Officials so we have a RIGHT guaranteed by our CONSTITUTION to know how they voted. Are you seriously that thick?

My point is not all votes in America are by secret ballot, nor should they be. There is nothing American or sacred about a secret ballot. Personally I feel that is the way cowards vote.
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Fermi2

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2009, 04:22 »
My point is not all votes in America are by secret ballot, nor should they be. There is nothing American or sacred about a secret ballot. Personally I feel that is the way cowards vote.

So you believe the Founding Fathers, all of whom took on the greatest power at the time, and all of whom made a constitution and Laws that GUARANTEED a secret ballot were cowards?
What an idiot.

Mike

duke99301

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2009, 09:42 »
Why would OSHA be in the mix?

Offline SloGlo

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2009, 10:19 »
Why would OSHA be in the mix?
cause da nrc carries there water at da nukes?
quando omni flunkus moritati

dubble eye, dubble yew, dubble aye!

dew the best ya kin, wit watt ya have, ware yinze are!

rlbinc

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2009, 10:19 »
The secret ballot is over-rated. Card-check would be great.

Why is one person's vote anothers business?
 
Notice the curtain at the polling booth last year?

Yeah, the one ACORN gave you a ride to.

That curtain is there to ensure the voter's privacy.

Offline RDTroja

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2009, 09:03 »
Why is one person's vote anothers business?
 

If they don't know how you vote, how will they know whether or not to harrass you?

Remember, you have freedom of harrassment, not freedom from harrassment.
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rlbinc

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2009, 10:13 »
OK, that's right.
Sorry.
Sheesh. Am I getting old, or what.

rlbinc

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #45 on: May 18, 2009, 10:16 »
Not even a pug? ;)

Nope Bulldogs.
As they said at Pilgrim... "your Bulldag's a pissah! :)

Offline bsdnuke

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2009, 09:03 »
My 2 cents...

I believe that there is a genuine need for an HP union but the context in the thread is usually solely about money.  I think this is the wrong approach. 

Working with union craft has made me recognize that for several of the specialties, the union card is recognition of the person that trained and worked from apprentice to journeyman level.  Many HP personnel have come into the system from Navy nuclear or shipyard programs with rigid training and qualification requirements.  Others used to come in a decon then work their way up from there to junior and senior technician levels. 

We probably all can agree that just because you have x thousand hours in plant you are all the same (regarding qualifications) and a good part of being an HP is the ability to stand toe-to-toe with craft and supervision and not get steamrolled.  But there are broad differences in radiological knowledge and experience that need to be recognized and addressed for unionization to be credible.

I don't know how many I will offend with this, but just putting your hand out for more money, benefits, etc., needs to have something behind it.  I have seen far too many experienced senior HPs that can't do anything without a procedure.  What does that say about their training?  We have to recognize that nuclear power facilities in particular, DOE, etc. all rely on procedures heavily.  When I have projects with unstructured programs, I can usually tell what the senior HP has in the way of using their experience and not falling back on procedures.

So maybe the community needs to take a hard look at its credential and how unionization will balance out the differences so that when plant radcon with high (external) dose jobs go on the road and show up at environmental remediation (e.g., soil jobs) or TRU sites, they can adapt better. 

Think about it.  Thanks.

Offline RDTroja

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2009, 10:47 »
I have spent some time and more than a few words on this site talking about the cost/benefit of having a contract RP union. Training and qualification would be a real tangible benefit to the technicians -- for most on a personal level and for the rest to upgrade the quality of technicians they work next to. In the long run I think it would benefit the utilities, but I am not sure they could be convinced of that, since most of them cannot see past this year's bottom line. The job of managing and maintaining the training program would be an unbelievable monster. Funding the training would be problematic, and getting the utilities to go along may be insurmountable... they would see it as an unjustifiable expense. Very unfortunate, but when all is said and done, they are the ones that control where the money is spent... and they want to spend less. They do not see the system as broken because when an outage does not get finished on time, it is never due to problems getting RPs.
"I won't eat anything that has intelligent life, but I'd gladly eat a network executive or a politician."

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"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to understand that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
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I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it.

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Content1

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2009, 03:40 »
What encentives would a company have to pay us more money.  As it is now, they give us shorter and shorter outages, no benefits that most of us can use, and would black list anyone openly organzing.  All talk without any teeth to it is overly optimisting of the chances of success.   In the past, all successful union organizing had some way to hurt the company.  We do not.

Offline Already Gone

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #49 on: May 20, 2009, 09:45 »
You have plenty of ways to hurt the company.  Mostly just by showing up.

But that is irrelevant.  The point is not that you can hurt them if they don't give you what you want.  That is not unionization, it is robbery.

The incentive is for the employers to get what they pay for by having trained, qualified, motivated employees who are well compensated for their time and efforts.

The incentive is the knowledge that they will get what they need if, and only if, they pay a fair wage, offer competitive benefits, train and support their workforce, and deal with them all fairly.

But, the choice as to whether or not the employees unionize is not up to the companies.  It is up to the employees.  If the employees join a union, the only way for the companies to secure their services is to do so through the union.  That is their incentive.

If the employees decide they don't want a union, the companies don't have to do any of that stuff if they don't want to.  It is also true that they really don't have to even if you form a union.  Either way, they don't have to do what they don't want to do.

So, what do yo think your chances are of getting better circumstances on your own without any support from your fellow techs.?  Just asking.
"To be content with little is hard; to be content with much, impossible." - Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach

Content1

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #50 on: May 20, 2009, 08:06 »
You have plenty of ways to hurt the company.  Mostly just by showing up. . .

You left out the drum- ba boom boom.

You show by your "Jay Leno" like humor why a union would not work.  That comment will not win friends and influence people.  It doesn't promote people to work together for a difficult goal as Unionization in a down economy.  Belittling each other does little for the cause, although is feels good to the sender.

Offline Already Gone

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2009, 10:07 »
The down economy is as good a time as any to form a union.  In fact, it may have prevented the economy slide as we now know it.  Even a republican like me can see that there has been a lopsided allocation of wealth in this country for decades.

Rather than fund retirements and benefits, employers are outsourcing jobs to call centers in India, setting up 401(k) plans that cost them little or nothing to operate, and relying too heavily on the idea that they can "save their way to profit".

The Social Security Trust Fund is a prime example.  Any program that relies on a payroll tax can't be solvent if the payroll that is being taxed continually shrinks.

Instead of staring at the bottom line every quarter, companies need to look at the health of the engine that produces long-term profitability.

Equitable investment of the wealth that a company creates must include a fair compensation for those who are doing the heavy lifting.

Everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY, needs to look beyond what is in this for me today, and pay some attention to what will sustain us in the long term.

A union that provides - or promises - only short-term economic gain is as doomed to fail as the company who ignores its own long-term viability in favor of this quarter's p&l statement.

But, a little humor isn't going to hurt anybody.  Lighten up a little.  The sun is shining, the birds are singing, and we still live in the world's greatest country.
"To be content with little is hard; to be content with much, impossible." - Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach

BuddyThePug

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2009, 10:46 »
Not even a pug? ;)

Who said pug?  :)

diparyar

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #53 on: May 29, 2009, 01:17 »
ust 2 bee again it, mabe eye stillam?

but iffin it aint gittin any better w/o tha onion, then lettus give it a go

peace

aykt

rapidray

11 for 12

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2009, 10:25 »
Well this fall the time is right with 3 sgrp's and 2 head jobs this fall.These 5 jobs will eat up the techs and if you don't confirm right away you may see a big bump in wages or a couple of back up union contracts  get awarded and then the ball will start rolling for this for higher wages
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 08:33 by 11 for 12 »

Content1

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #55 on: May 30, 2009, 01:16 »
1/2 way through each s/g replacements they let a lot of people go.  Don't purchase that Mercedes yet.

Offline Rain Man

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #56 on: May 30, 2009, 07:02 »
During my ride of getting long in the tooth I have been a member of 4 unions.  I don't have anything good to say about any of them.
"Giving power and money to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenaged boys." -P.J. O'Rourke

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ballscratcher

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #57 on: Aug 07, 2009, 12:34 »
Lots of animosity.................... .

A Union is nothing more than an association of like-minded individuals.  The IBEW, for instance, isn't really the Union but is, instead, the representative of an organized group of people.

The IBEW (of which I'm a proud member) cannot seek higher wages from an employer; that's up to the membership.  The IBEW (I'll restrict my Union comments to the IBEW but it is representative of all Unions) employs folks (representatives, VPs, negotiators, etc) who have some expertise on labor issues and will advise a Local / Unit on potential job action but, again, has no power to impose its will ("it" doesn't have any will; the "will" is owned by the membership of the Local / Unit).

Whether you're for or against Union representation is your own business but it's terribly important to understand what a Union is and, equally important, what it is not.
When a contract is being sought, the membership votes on all of its elements.  When choosing who gets what job, when, the selection criteria is established in the contract upon which a vote was taken.  Seniority tends to be the leading factor but it doesn't HAVE to be; that's up to the membership.  If the membership writes into the contract that job selection should be based on height, that becomes the standard.

When we (Comanche Peak Chemists and RPs) first organized, we received a pretty healthy raise.  Since then, we really haven't gotten much; in fact, we've lost wages with respect to inflation.  Has the Union failed us?  No; we ARE the Union and we've bargained for everything that we could get.  It just so happens that the supply and demand equation leaves us on the short end of the stick.
If the desire to form a national Union is driven by money, my recommendation would be to stop trying to organize.  The effort, in my humble opinion, should be based on working conditions, number of slots allocated for outage positions, guaranteed wages and benefits for the duration of the contract, a grievance procedure to halt arbitrary treatment of members, the cessation of double secret probation (is that still being practiced?), a standard for the determination of Per Diem rates, a standard for the determination of wages (an ANSI 3.1 technician receives $X.xx / hour anywhere (s)he works for example) and other protections afforded by labor laws.

Union dues:  Typically, the monthly dues are equal to one hour's pay.  Most of that amount is returned to the Local / Unit.  Dues increase only if the membership votes to increase them (to build an office, for instance).  One hour's pay per month.....it's only $100.00 if you make $100.00 per hour OR if you've voted to increase them.


If you're successful in your organizing effort, IBEW Local-220 will support your effort completely.

Bill Nichols
billnich@hpnc.com

Content1

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Re: time is right for a union
« Reply #58 on: Aug 07, 2009, 03:55 »
A union based like the united auto workers that leads to corrupt people making use of your dues for liberal causes is bad.  A union based on standards that a person can meet on merit, not another good old by network, is good. 

Not everyone would join, but once the members got a good reputation of people performing reliably, so the utilties and recruiters could say, "He is a member of the XYZ Professional RP union, we know he/she does good work."   You must be ready to have standards to remove the unqualified, and training to assure people stay qualified.  Are you ready to take on that kind of task?  A professional association vs. just a union.

 


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