time is right for a union

[Khak-Hater]

Once upon a time there was a larger need for a job function than there were trained individuals to fill that need.  Hence the job function paid very well and all were happy.  The lead time for training for an entry level position in this job function was very short, so many people, who wouldn't otherwise have any particular interest in performing that job, were drawn into performing it for the money, and good money it was, and many were happy and many more joined. 

Then, as things began to change, as they almost always do, the number of people trained to do the job had grown, and the need for the job had shrunk, and the pay for the job had also shrunk [for the same reason that it had grown in the first place].  Thus the job field was overfilled, with many of the people overfilling it having no particular love of the job itself, having only been drawn to it for the money which was no longer there.  These people, many of whom were now very experienced in the job having enjoyed the money through the golden years, now felt too invested in the job to change, even though the money was no longer there, and there was much sadness. 

They began to look around and ask "Why do we make less than those fellows?"  "Because those fellows band together."  "We should band together."  But these fellows are not the same as those fellows.  Never have been and never will be.  If they were, they'd be those fellows.

But they just want to do what they've learned to do, working with their friends, remembering when times were better.

Insert Zeppelin reference:

Theres a lady who's sure
All that glitters is gold
And shes buying a stairway to heaven.
When she gets there she knows
If the stores are all closed
With a word she can get what she came for.
Ooh, ooh, and shes buying a stairway to heaven.

Theres a sign on the wall
But she wants to be sure
cause you know sometimes words have two meanings.
In a tree by the brook

Theres a songbird who sings,
Sometimes all of our thoughts are misgiven.
Ooh, it makes me wonder,
Ooh, it makes me wonder.

Theres a feeling I get
When I look to the west,
And my spirit is crying for leaving.
In my thoughts I have seen
Rings of smoke through the trees,
And the voices of those who standing looking.
Ooh, it makes me wonder,
Ooh, it really makes me wonder.

And its whispered that soon
If we all call the tune
Then the piper will lead us to reason.
And a new day will dawn
For those who stand long
And the forests will echo with laughter.

If theres a bustle in your hedgerow
Don't be alarmed now,
Its just a spring clean for the may queen.
Yes, there are two paths you can go by
But in the long run
Theres still time to change the road you're on.
And it makes me wonder.

Your head is humming and it wont go
In case you don't know,
The pipers calling you to join him,
Dear lady, can you hear the wind blow,
And did you know
Your stairway lies on the whispering wind.

And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our soul.
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How everything still turns to gold.
And if you listen very hard
The tune will come to you at last.
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll.

I looked these lyrics up because I thought I'd quote the "Yes, there are two paths you can go by, But in the long run,there's still time to change the road you're on" line, but as I read it, I thought the whole thing was pretty applicable.

mgm

[Already Gone]

Not that I'm one to turn the tables Mr. Big (can you hear the sarcasm in that?) but you should take your own advice.  I HAVE read the website entirely, including the contracts.  You should not make assumptions about what I have or have not done.

The benefits are cut and pasted from an insurance company's site - where there is any information at all, but most of them are "coming soon".

The contract is a standard collective bargaining boilerplate.  I might also add that the two companies who have signed "letters of understanding" have not actually signed this contract.  But that is okay.  There is nothing wrong with that.  It will be negotiated and changed before anyone signs it - which means that naturally everything that NPUA says they are going to get for you may not materialize.  This is true with any union.

The attitude that "at least they are doing something" prompts the question; are they doing the RIGHT thing?  What if all their good intentions end up costing the techs some money?  What if people hold out only to find out that the outage season happened just fine without them?  What if all the techs who don't hold out end up doing twice the work for the same low pay?  Then everybody gets screwed.

Next, the idea that the organizers have invested over $30,000.00 of their own money raises a red flag (no pun intended).  Nobody invests their own money without the expectation of some return on that investment.  A labor union is a non-profit organization that is funded solely by it's membership with no expectation of financial gain by outside investors.  If they put their own money into it, how can anyone believe that they are acting entirely for the benefit of the membership and not looking after their own financial interests?  Don't even try to tell me that they are putting up that money out of the goodness of their hearts, with nothing but the welfare of their fellow techs in mind.  Please!

If the movement lacks support to the point that private individuals need to supply the startup funding, it isn't likely to succeed.  If there was backing from a major labor organization like AFL-CIO, it would have a better chance.

Bartlett and Atlantic, et. al., have not failed over the past 20 years to get the utilities attention about compensation.  To fail, they would first have to try.  Why should they?  They are under no obligation whatsoever to be the guardians of your standard of living or mine.  Their mission is to sell the services that they provide and to provide the services that they sell.  They have done that.  Maybe they sold you and me a lot more cheaply than we would prefer, and maybe they paid us a lot less than we think we are worth, but we have always had the option to refuse.

Look, I am totally for the unionization of the techs - IF THAT IS WHAT THEY WANT!!!  And, I am totally against the exploitation of the techs by any party who sees their plight as an opportunity to profit from their misery.

That is what I think this particular organization is, whether they intend to be or not.  The companies who sign with them are just taking the back door into contracts that they cannot get because they are unable to compete.  I'll tell you this much; if you need another company's employees to jump ship en-masse in order to compete with them, you are not prepared to take their place.  If your business depends on the competition failing, you don't have a viable business.  That is why these rinky-dink firms with an address at Mailboxes Etc. are signing these letters.  Instead, they should be recruiting and training a group of people who can do a better job than Bartlett and Atlantic people can do (that would not be difficult).  If you can offer value, you will get your market share.  But if you offer the same low-value at a higher price just because you have cornered the market, you will collapse.

If this union were serious, they would be trying to organize the Bartlett and Atlantic techs, and getting a contract with Bartlett and Atlantic.  Instead, they are basically blackmailing the utilities into using these smaller companies because that is where all the techs will be.  Guess what?  They won't be there, and if they do go there, Bartlett and Atlantic will just find someone else to take their place.  Someone even less qualified then the ones they are using now.  But, they will fill the slots and collect their money.  The power plants will not pay a dime more than it costs, and the contract companies won't either.  Right now, it costs them very little - partly because they have rather low standards.  If a KMart tech will do, they will pay KMart prices for the service.  If they need something better, they may have to shop uptown, but they sure as hell won't be paying Neimann-Marcus prices for the same level of quality that they got under the flashing blue light.

This is why training is so conspicuous in it's absence from any NPUA literature.  Nobody is going to take them seriously until they can offer something better rather than repackaging the same crap at a higher price.  That goes for both the companies and the employees, by the way.

[Already Gone]

I do not disagree with either that excerpt or your characterization of it.  A Steward works for the union - that is: the good of all employees and not just the interests of one.  A supervisor works for the company, with its interests at the focus of his job.

When all goes right, both the steward and the supervisor can succeed for the good of the company and of the union - which BOTH depend on and support the employees.  This only has to get adversarial when one side or the other gets greedy or unreasonable.

I bet if you asked Bartlett how they feel about unionization, they will give the standard answer - that they don't need interference in the relationship between them and their employees.  But, the truth is that they probably wouldn't mind it at all as long as it remained professional.

But, go try to stab them in the back by having their employees jump over to Small Potatoes, LLC, and that isn't exactly going to make them want to be very friendly with you now, is it?

[Already Gone]

That's awfully nice of you.  I didn't really smite him for typing in all caps.  I did it because he didn't correct it.  I figure that he hasn't been back since he made his original post.  That kind of hit-and-run posting just irks me.
For the record, I would never smite anyone for a pro-union message.
I was talking this over with an old-timer who is a lifelong union craftsman.  His immediate response was "you people could have ruled the nuclear world if you had just gotten your s#!t together back in the 90's"  Boy, he was right.  HP's practically controlled the entire plant back then, and a stronger position would have meant not losing all that influence.  So, it seems that failure to organize has cost a lot more than appears on the surface of it.

[RDTroja]

I also provided popdaddy with a 'negative Karma event' (how about that for politicalese?) based on the caps, his failure to acknowledge any input, failure to correct and a general lack of respect for the Forum.

I also would never smite for either supporting or not supporting a union... or for most any other opinion.

While I agree that many opportunities have been missed, I have to disagree that we would be wielding any additional power if we had unionized. We would probably have more money (at what cost, I do not know) but the power was headed to Operations because they are the only group that actually generates income. The overriding force that has brought about most, if not all, of the changes we are witnessing in the industry is deregulation and the dramatic change in the way utilities charge for services. Back in the day, the more a utility spent making electricity, the more they got in return. They were guaranteed a return on their investment by the rules that governed what rates were charged and what could be recovered. In most places that has been replaced with competition, bringing about a 180 degree turn in how HP expenses are viewed (and how outage lengths are viewed, as well.) Instead of being a source of additional income (that guaranteed percent of what they spent on us) we are now a cost. Economic forces now work against us instead of for us and the utilities are required (by fiduciary responsibility to their investors) to lower their costs to maintain and maximize profits. So we have shorter outages, quicker layoffs, and reduced staffing, both contractors and house. Operations generates electricity, so they wield the power.

It would have been nice to have had that power for a bit longer, along with a fatter paycheck, but I am pretty sure it would have cost some freedom, too. Maybe it would have been a good trade, maybe not. Unfortunately we were never able to find out after we got hung out to dry in 1990.

[atomicarcheologist]

It's probably past due time for union formation for HPs.  It may even be past time for deconners and clerical support staff of the RadPro group at the power plants.  With the outages so short, people are staying out of that area of the business unless they must take a quick job between longer term postions.  Power plants are getting bought up by the corporate conglomerates and formed into "fleets".  This enables the companies to float their own people to a plant which is down.  Foreign nationals are being imported to do the work.  Would they be interested in unionization?  Obviously the domestic workers are not jumping up and down for a union, why would a foreigner want to stand out at a plant and take the lumps?  No, I'm not seeing a union in the near future for this audience, and the longer view doesn't look any more promising.

[namlive]

A bad union is better than no union.

The secret ballot is over-rated. Card-check would be great.

Negative Karma for posting in all caps? Oh please! Someone does think highly of themself. 

[G-reg]

A bad union is better than no union.

Better for who, exactly?  I'm a firm believer in organized labor and collective bargaining, but if you're going to offer me a "bad union" then I'm going to pass on your offer and go with the "no union" option.

[SloGlo]

The secret ballot is over-rated. Card-check would be great.

wood yinz vote without secrecy in all your polls?  vote in private is the american weigh.  vote in public is da way of da banana republic.

[namlive]

wood yinz vote without secrecy in all your polls?  vote in private is the american weigh.  vote in public is da way of da banana republic.

Congressional votes are all public as are the votes of Supreme Court justices. Eating youself to death at fast food joints is the American Weigh, but that doesn't justify it.

[Fermi2]

Congressional votes are all public as are the votes of Supreme Court justices. Eating youself to death at fast food joints is the American Weigh, but that doesn't justify it.

Uh Congressional and Supreme court Votes are public because they are either Governmental Elected or Appointed Officials so we have a RIGHT guaranteed by our CONSTITUTION to know how they voted. Are you seriously that thick?

[duke99301]

Did the navy have a union? they do have a sargent of arms right the marines?
 Any ways all kidding aside HP techs have no Formal training program or a way to show you would be a  a top grade tech. Other than a resume or some one says since you came in as an ELT you are a sr tech.  So how would you grade someone in from the navy give them top pay? Or make them start as an apprentice? or how would you handle a house tech who left his site and wants to work on the road ? would you let them buy a book ?
 Where would traning be held at? Those of you who work around the craft you know they have to go to school x amount time per year. Where would HP school be held at? Would you have an at large local or
How would you handle a call list ?
yes it would be a lot of work to put this in place in the long run people would have  some benfits but how many hours do you have to put in a year to have your medical paid for the year? what about  retirement?
Some unions allow you to get your own jobs others  want you to come off the list.
Now now if you go work for say one of the HP companys did they sign an agreement?  you can have all the unions you want but if the company that pays you is not signed it will be hard.
A union workers package is about say $72 an hour to cover all the bennys and they do not get per diem. ( unless it someplace that has agreeded to it.)
Unions are ok but there is a lot of ground work to be put in place now can you get 25 techs to agree on one thing at once?  I am not sure but for now is there a BA who wants to go to bat for the HP's?
I do not have the answer just a lot of questions where do we go from here?
good luck  not trying to start anything just asking.

[HydroDave63]

It's impossible to calculate, because at least two of the variables aren't known: minimum training for the job description, and minimum staffing for the duties.

As long as plants can deputize secretaries and design engineers to cover portal monitors and frisking, it lowers the bar on qualifications. Someone desiring all-union all-the-time would need to make a good case to the NRC and OSHA why this doesn't meet 10CFR20.

Staffing, one would need to demonstrate to NRC and OSHA how having too few techs covering too many jobs is unsafe from fatigue or heat stress. Something tangible.

Without those variables, trying to reverse engineer a potential wage and benefit structure to everyone's satisfaction won't be possible.

[namlive]

Uh Congressional and Supreme court Votes are public because they are either Governmental Elected or Appointed Officials so we have a RIGHT guaranteed by our CONSTITUTION to know how they voted. Are you seriously that thick?

My point is not all votes in America are by secret ballot, nor should they be. There is nothing American or sacred about a secret ballot. Personally I feel that is the way cowards vote.

[Fermi2]

My point is not all votes in America are by secret ballot, nor should they be. There is nothing American or sacred about a secret ballot. Personally I feel that is the way cowards vote.

So you believe the Founding Fathers, all of whom took on the greatest power at the time, and all of whom made a constitution and Laws that GUARANTEED a secret ballot were cowards?
What an idiot.

Mike

[duke99301]

Why would OSHA be in the mix?

[SloGlo]

Why would OSHA be in the mix?

cause da nrc carries there water at da nukes?

[rlbinc]

The secret ballot is over-rated. Card-check would be great.

Why is one person's vote anothers business?
 
Notice the curtain at the polling booth last year?

Yeah, the one ACORN gave you a ride to.

That curtain is there to ensure the voter's privacy.

[RDTroja]

Why is one person's vote anothers business?
 

If they don't know how you vote, how will they know whether or not to harrass you?

Remember, you have freedom of harrassment, not freedom from harrassment.

[rlbinc]

OK, that's right.
Sorry.
Sheesh. Am I getting old, or what.

[rlbinc]

Not even a pug?

Nope Bulldogs.
As they said at Pilgrim... "your Bulldag's a pissah!

[bsdnuke]

My 2 cents...

I believe that there is a genuine need for an HP union but the context in the thread is usually solely about money.  I think this is the wrong approach. 

Working with union craft has made me recognize that for several of the specialties, the union card is recognition of the person that trained and worked from apprentice to journeyman level.  Many HP personnel have come into the system from Navy nuclear or shipyard programs with rigid training and qualification requirements.  Others used to come in a decon then work their way up from there to junior and senior technician levels. 

We probably all can agree that just because you have x thousand hours in plant you are all the same (regarding qualifications) and a good part of being an HP is the ability to stand toe-to-toe with craft and supervision and not get steamrolled.  But there are broad differences in radiological knowledge and experience that need to be recognized and addressed for unionization to be credible.

I don't know how many I will offend with this, but just putting your hand out for more money, benefits, etc., needs to have something behind it.  I have seen far too many experienced senior HPs that can't do anything without a procedure.  What does that say about their training?  We have to recognize that nuclear power facilities in particular, DOE, etc. all rely on procedures heavily.  When I have projects with unstructured programs, I can usually tell what the senior HP has in the way of using their experience and not falling back on procedures.

So maybe the community needs to take a hard look at its credential and how unionization will balance out the differences so that when plant radcon with high (external) dose jobs go on the road and show up at environmental remediation (e.g., soil jobs) or TRU sites, they can adapt better. 

Think about it.  Thanks.

[RDTroja]

I have spent some time and more than a few words on this site talking about the cost/benefit of having a contract RP union. Training and qualification would be a real tangible benefit to the technicians -- for most on a personal level and for the rest to upgrade the quality of technicians they work next to. In the long run I think it would benefit the utilities, but I am not sure they could be convinced of that, since most of them cannot see past this year's bottom line. The job of managing and maintaining the training program would be an unbelievable monster. Funding the training would be problematic, and getting the utilities to go along may be insurmountable... they would see it as an unjustifiable expense. Very unfortunate, but when all is said and done, they are the ones that control where the money is spent... and they want to spend less. They do not see the system as broken because when an outage does not get finished on time, it is never due to problems getting RPs.

[Content1]

What encentives would a company have to pay us more money.  As it is now, they give us shorter and shorter outages, no benefits that most of us can use, and would black list anyone openly organzing.  All talk without any teeth to it is overly optimisting of the chances of success.   In the past, all successful union organizing had some way to hurt the company.  We do not.

[Already Gone]

You have plenty of ways to hurt the company.  Mostly just by showing up.

But that is irrelevant.  The point is not that you can hurt them if they don't give you what you want.  That is not unionization, it is robbery.

The incentive is for the employers to get what they pay for by having trained, qualified, motivated employees who are well compensated for their time and efforts.

The incentive is the knowledge that they will get what they need if, and only if, they pay a fair wage, offer competitive benefits, train and support their workforce, and deal with them all fairly.

But, the choice as to whether or not the employees unionize is not up to the companies.  It is up to the employees.  If the employees join a union, the only way for the companies to secure their services is to do so through the union.  That is their incentive.

If the employees decide they don't want a union, the companies don't have to do any of that stuff if they don't want to.  It is also true that they really don't have to even if you form a union.  Either way, they don't have to do what they don't want to do.

So, what do yo think your chances are of getting better circumstances on your own without any support from your fellow techs.?  Just asking.