lost cause?

[Bighouz107501]

hey everyone! its been a while since being on here but i thought I could use some advice. well anyways, im not too sure if you have heard about the Truman. yet another cheating scandal on a CTE that is resulting in alot of people being relieved and masted. I was questioned and admitted that I did indeed do this, so I am most likely being sent up here soon and being removed of my NEC. i have yet to qualify CRW as well. (if you want anymore details about this exam stuff let me know) but anyways, a few guys and myself were curious if this would ruin a chance at a job on the outside? does it waive any flags? i could honestly see it being either way. well thanks for the time

dennis

[sovbob]

yet another cheating scandal on a CTE that is resulting in alot of people being relieved and masted.

Wow, that sucks.  I always knew that training was often fabricated.  Back when divisions had to develop their own training plans/exams/grades, the training POs would just make up exams but the division wouldn't take them.  Instead, he would come up with exam scores that would seem plausible (the senior guys would do well, and the nubs would do poorly).  Every exam had one person fail, and one question failed.

In actuality, such a distribution of grades would be impossible to reliably achieve.  If people scored too low, the training was not effective.  If people scored too high, the tests weren't challenging enough.  In essence, the training PO couldn't win because of the unreasonably small margin he was expected to fit in.  And so, out of frustration more than anything else, he just says "F*CK IT" and makes up grades that will satisfy everybody.

This became a large and pervasive problem, as people became more and more sensitive to "making the grades fit the curve" rather than having real-world training with less-than-ideal results.  Sometimes I wondered if the higher-ups realized the training system was broken and chose to ignore it, or if they really believed that every exam resulted in a perfect distribution of grades.

Of course, CTE wasn't the only problem.  Watchstation qualification exams were also affected, but to a lesser extent.  It was common practice that when a guy was ready for his watchstation qual exam, the training PO would hand him the approved test and tell him to "find a quiet place to take it" meaning that he should go hide in some out-of-the-way spot, and look up answers if needed.  It was understood that the person taking the exam should not ace it, because that would be suspicious.  Part of the problem was that in order to get a qual exam approved, it required brutally difficult questions.  These questions went far beyond what might be reasonably expected to stand the watch.  Furthermore, in a division that is so short-handed, it needs all the qualified watchstanders it can get.  It could take weeks to get a new exam written, routed, and approved.  So in the interest of getting people qualified, these exams were influenced.

But I digress.  It's a shame that you got caught in the CTE mess.  I truly sympathize with you, because I know that the training system is broken and while I don't condone integrity violations, I understand how good people can be caught up in bad situations.

[Smooth Operator]

You nailed it.

[HydroDave63]

curious if this would ruin a chance at a job on the outside? does it waive any flags?

Things that may negatively influence finding outside work, especially nuclear operations :

1. Anything other than an Honorable discharge

2. HR or hiring manager reviewing resume, looking at work experience/watchstations qualified.

3. Interview questions about what you did/qualified during your Navy time.

4. Background investigation, since now even ordinary sounding jobs, simply requiring unescorted access to computer equipment, substations and anything nuclear are now looking back 7 years, and the investigations include asking the references for other references,etc.

Your posting sounded fairly honest and coming clean, and that would be the approach that, if you do get an interview  may be THE only thing that saves your bacon! Good luck!

[Khak-Hater]

Might it affect your getting some jobs?  Yes, it might.  Will it keep you from getting a job in the nuclear field?  NO.  

There are two types of men in the world, those that admit to occasionally gratifying themselves sexually and those who lie about it.

There are plenty of "holier than thou" types who will hold this event against you, most of whom are lying to themselves that they, themselves, never cheated in any way.  I'm not denying that there aren't few "Snow White"s out there, who never cheated on anything, ever, but they're rarely part of the aforementioned group of "holier than thou"s.  Most of us, understand that things like this occur, and are aware of the associated consequences.  To be honest, if they'd hold this against you, then you probably don't want to work for them any way.  

Some advice would be to broaden your job search (e.g., don't just focus on commercial power, but include DOE and other nuclear/radiological work).  Be honest about it if asked (i.e., own your mistake, without shame or allowing it to define you).  Work hard at any opportunities that present themselves, and it will soon be forgotten by all but the most ardent of Pharisees.

A quick sea story:

When I got to the Pig in Alameda, they immediately stuck me in RT Div. to qualify BNEQ.  I spent all available time learning the systems, many of which were very similar to the systems at my NPTU [S3G].  I began hitting up the RT instructors for checkouts, but they were even less supportive than the NPTU instructors at S3G.  The ones who weren't jackasses about it suggested that I wait until I get my TLD and then go down to one of the plant's CTG Flats right after in-port morning muster and catch some of the QPOs while they were waiting around to either get a work assignment or cut loose for the day.  It sounded good.  So I studied and waited for my TLD.

The day came when I got my TLD, so I went down to the plant and started walking down the systems that I'd studied.  The next morning, I headed to the 2-Plant CTG Flats for my first CVN-65 checkout.  The flats were thick with blueshirts, as I headed in, Qual card in hand, looking for a QPO.  As I headed into the crowd, I asked the first fellow that I made eye contact with where I might find a QPO.  At this point, a different fellow to my right yelled "Fresh NUB!," grabbed my BNEQ qual card, and quickly dissappeared into the crowd.  Someone else assured me that everything was cool and started making small talk with me; what was my rate, where was I from, what prototype did I go to, how'd I like the Bay area so far, etc.  Then some khaks handed out some work assignments and cut everyone else loose.  The CTG Flats quickly emptied of people, and I was left there alone, without having gotten a single checkout.  Plus, I'd lost my qual card [Bummer].  

As I left the plant, I found my qual card near the exit ladder.  Every blank had been signed off.  Not just sleezed in by two or three guys, but with the interspersed signatures of more than a dozen different QPOs.  I was lost.  What should I do?  Go report this integrity violation to the RT Div. Khak.  Throw the qual card away, say that I lost it, and ask for another.  I went to one of the nicer RT Instructors and asked for advice.  He laughed about how I'd been majorly slimed with sleaziness - more so than he'd ever seen.  He said that it was now my responsibility to ensure that I knew everything on that card.  It was very much like the "With great power comes great responsibility" speech from Raimi's Spiderman.  "It's your responsability to know the plant inside and out."  He told me that I could skate the curve for the next couple of months or hurry up and qualify and get down to the plant.  I crammed for another week and passed the BNEQ test and board.  I was out of RT two weeks from the day I reported on to the ship, but I spent the next few years learning those plants.  

Keep your chin up, work hard, and you'll overcome this.  Always remember that it's no one's responsability but yours to ensure that you are a heavy toad.  Excellence comes from within.  

Good luck,

mgm

[Fermi2]

I've never cheated and if anyone around me cheats I'll do everything in my power to get them removed from the industry.

Mike

[Gamecock]

A quick sea story:

When I got to the Pig in Alameda, they immediately stuck me in RT Div. to qualify BNEQ.  I spent all available time learning the systems, many of which were very similar to the systems at my NPTU [S3G].  I began hitting up the RT instructors for checkouts, but they were even less supportive than the NPTU instructors at S3G.  The ones who weren't jackasses about it suggested that I wait until I get my TLD and then go down to one of the plant's CTG Flats right after in-port morning muster and catch some of the QPOs while they were waiting around to either get a work assignment or cut loose for the day.  It sounded good.  So I studied and waited for my TLD.

The day came when I got my TLD, so I went down to the plant and started walking down the systems that I'd studied.  The next morning, I headed to the 2-Plant CTG Flats for my first CVN-65 checkout.  The flats were thick with blueshirts, as I headed in, Qual card in hand, looking for a QPO.  As I headed into the crowd, I asked the first fellow that I made eye contact with where I might find a QPO.  At this point, a different fellow to my right yelled "Fresh NUB!," grabbed my BNEQ qual card, and quickly dissappeared into the crowd.  Someone else assured me that everything was cool and started making small talk with me; what was my rate, where was I from, what prototype did I go to, how'd I like the Bay area so far, etc.  Then some khaks handed out some work assignments and cut everyone else loose.  The CTG Flats quickly emptied of people, and I was left there alone, without having gotten a single checkout.  Plus, I'd lost my qual card [Bummer]. 

As I left the plant, I found my qual card near the exit ladder.  Every blank had been signed off.  Not just sleezed in by two or three guys, but with the interspersed signatures of more than a dozen different QPOs.  I was lost.  What should I do?  Go report this integrity violation to the RT Div. Khak.  Throw the qual card away, say that I lost it, and ask for another.  I went to one of the nicer RT Instructors and asked for advice.  He laughed about how I'd been majorly slimed with sleaziness - more so than he'd ever seen.  He said that it was now my responsibility to ensure that I knew everything on that card.  It was very much like the "With great power comes great responsibility" speech from Raimi's Spiderman.  "It's your responsability to know the plant inside and out."  He told me that I could skate the curve for the next couple of months or hurry up and qualify and get down to the plant.  I crammed for another week and passed the BNEQ test and board.  I was out of RT two weeks from the day I reported on to the ship, but I spent the next few years learning those plants. 

I'll bet that if you had asked the RTA or the RO that you would have gotten a different response

[HydroDave63]

Can you jump a shark if all the water is under the bridge?!?!?!? 

If you are Ted Kennedy and you are driving..... definitely!

On-topic: Bighouz, what post-EAOS job category are you looking at pursuing now, in your circumstances?

[Gamecock]

 in fact, i see all the people who cheated and lied as bigger integrity violators.

Wrong.....

[Khak-Hater]

I'll bet that if you had asked the RTA or the RO that you would have gotten a different response

That was the problem.  A dozen or more senior operators who otherwise did a fine job running their plant would've gotten hammered.  That's the problem inherent in the system.  Did I want to get my card sleazed off?  No.  Was I 100% ready for several checkouts?  Yes.  Did I think that there was a problem with what happened?  Yes.  Did I think that telling a khak about the problem would've resulted in anything short of some widespread draconian form of negative reinforcement?  Not for a second.  

Khaks never ask why something like this happens.  The answer is already programmed into them - lack of discipline; lack of integrity; lack of character; lack of fear.  The nuke Navy that I served in didn't do root cause analyses.  They did critiques, which inevitably ended in a game of "fry the blue shirt(s)."  This is the problem with bad management, when someone knows that, not only will informing management not fix the problem, it will make the situation worse, then problems never get fixed. 

Honestly, no one ever needs to cheat at anything.  I proctor the CHP exam every year and I've never seen anyone even try anything questionable.  The test means something to the candidates and they respect it.  They respect the months of study that they put into it.  They respect themselves and their peers when they pass it. 

Why didn't those 2-Plant QPOs respect the "sanctity" of the checkout process?  I don't know.  Personally, I was a QPO for everything that I was qualified and I was qualified everything that I could, and I loved giving checkouts.  I find training people and sharing knowledge to be very rewarding.  Maybe they didn't.  Maybe they didn't value the process.  Maybe they actually operated by a different process and the checkout process was simply an external administrative system that was imposed upon them.  2 Plant was a fine plant.  I can't think of any 2-Plant watchstanders who weren't competent at their jobs [unlike those misfits in 1 Plant].  How were they competent watch standers without respecting the checkout process?  I'd wager that it was because they had a different process, which they did value.  

I'd be interested in asking our thread starter why he didn't respect the testing process [and, no the answer is not related to whether or not he thought that he would get caught and/or punished].  In "The Plague," one of Camus' characters points out that the fundamental difference between criminals/policemen and normal people is that when a normal person considers whether or not to observe a law he considers whether it is reasonable (e.g., it's reasonable to exceed the speed limit on a dry straight four lane highway with good visibility), whereas both cops and criminals judge laws by the chance of getting caught and associated punishment.  

In the years since I've been out of the Navy, I can't think of a test that I've taken or given, for which one of the participants would consider cheating necessary, seriously, and it has nothing to do with chances of getting caught or associated punishments.  It also has nothing to do with INTEGRITY.  Do you think that the average civilian has more integrity than the average Navy nuke?  Why does the Navy have this problem?  Do you all have problems with cheaters where you work?  What's the motivation?

I'm not proposing some new-age, love everybody crap, or defending the poor misunderstood criminal.  I'm asking "What's the real problem here?"  This is management, not head-in-the-sand rhetoric.  Why does this happen?  A good manager would find out and fix the problem.  That's what good managers do.  The Navy keeps having this problem because they never take the time to find out why it's happening.  Fry some more blue shirts.  That'll fix it.  No, that'll just drive the problem deeper underground.   

So, Bighouz107501, I'd be interested in knowing, what was your motivation for cheating?  It's not an easy question.  I wouldn't expect a short answer.

Thanks,

mgm

[30378wby]

hey everyone! its been a while since being on here but i thought I could use some advice. well anyways, im not too sure if you have heard about the Truman. yet another cheating scandal on a CTE that is resulting in alot of people being relieved and masted. I was questioned and admitted that I did indeed do this, so I am most likely being sent up here soon and being removed of my NEC. i have yet to qualify CRW as well. (if you want anymore details about this exam stuff let me know) but anyways, a few guys and myself were curious if this would ruin a chance at a job on the outside? does it waive any flags? i could honestly see it being either way. well thanks for the time

dennis

Wow, I guess the world and the nuclear navy has changed a lot more than I expected.  I spent the last 2 years on my carrier in Reactor Training (1986-1988) and can tell anyone that the secondary mechanical tests were harder than hell and the operators still passed them while being monitored throughout the test as the division knew how hard they were and made the boards quite hard.  We had a ETCS shooting for warrant officer and cheat on his PPWS exam and was turned in by a blueshirt and denuked.  I cannot recall another example of a nuke cheating in my memory of that time.  I can tell you that in a ship yard environment when you are caught cheating the instructors want you fired but the government will simply move you to another job.  If you are caught cheating in commercial nuclear power at my company as an operator you will be gone and your employment will no longer be desired.  We will agree with the NRC assignment of being blocked for X years from working in the nuclear industry and keep you from working for us.

But I would say, after the restrictions in place of 9/11, do not lie, exaggerate or soften your involvement or actions as some portion of the government will ensure that we are completely informed of your conduct.  If you did not get a DD or a felony then you should still be able to work commercial nuclear, just be truthful.

[Preciousblue1965]

BigHouz......Dude that sucks hard core.  I am surprised it hasn't made the Navy times yet.  However you are a bigger man than most in the fact that admitted to it up front and had the fortitude to admit to it on this forum.  Best of luck to you in the future.

Khak-hater.....If you really want to know why there is this underlying sense of the need to cheat on exams, well it isn't a difficult answer as much as a several step answer.  It all starts with who we let stay in the program.  Years ago, the attrition rate for academics was much larger than it is now.  Therefore only the truly intelligent made it through.  Now it is almost impossible to get a student dropped for academics.  Furthermore, the material that is taught now is much less in detail than before, and the method in which that material is delivered is severely dumbed-down(the students get pre printed notes with fill in the blanks).  The responsibility for passing has been shifted from the student to the instructors now.  It is no longer a students fault if he fails, it is the instructors fault for not putting in enough effort to train the untrainable.  This leads to lower quality of nuke operators with regards to intelligence.  Now throw in the fact that those that have been in for a very long time are now in positions of importance, they remember what tests were like back in the day and feel that the tests now should be as difficult as they were back then.  So you get a LOT of failures.  Instead of looking at the quality of nukes that are taking the test as a possible problem, these senior folks immediately thing that there must be something wrong with the training that is being given on the ships.  Cue knee-jerk reactions, and now you have all nukes going through more and more training and training departments getting hammered.  Thus appears the fork in the road, A) continue with training and life as you know it being hell until grades improve or B) take the easy way out and fudge the numbers to make the brass happy and get back to easier days.  Sadly option B is often the path chosen.  Soon you get grades skyrocketing and the higher ups say the tests are too easy, so you have to make the tests even harder, which begits more cheating, and so on and so forth.  Thus it ends up being that only a seasoned operator with several years of operations would be the only ones who would be able to pass the initial watchstanders exam, and CTEs that go above and beyond any reasonable level of knowledge.  Thus this breeds the mentality of the need to cheat, especially when there are negative consequences of failing such as coming in on days off or lengthy remedial programs. 

At least that is how I see the problem, but as Dennis Miller says..."I could be wrong"

[HockeyFan]

if i failed the next CTE i would have been placed on remedial hours which start after the official work day and its 5 days a week. on top of that i have to perform a knowledge upgrade and then stay even more late on the friday after the exam.

The lesson learned should be that if you had failed after giving your best shot and studying hard, you would still be a nuke.  You may have had to work a bit more to be upgraded, but you would be better off in the long run and a more knowledgable operator.

OK, I'm sure you agree and hindsight is 20/20.  So moving forward, I will tell you that your Navy experience will not hurt you one bit in a non-nuclear civilian job.  Finish your degree, intern at a good company, and do the right thing in the future.  Build your reputation as a someone who follows the straight and narrow path even when it's difficult, and you'll be a winner.

Dave

[War Eagle]

BigH,
While I appreciate your candor and honesty on these boards, be careful about what you post especially if you or others are still under investigation. Remember, there's no such thing as rules of evidence in CO's Mast.

[War Eagle]

I've seen the "culture" approach gloss over individual integrity violations before. 

To be intentionally vague, I found a significant number of questionable things during a spot check of a program.  When I presented my findings, I cautioned my organization against making an example of the people named in my report. I could have just as easily selected a different handful of records and come up with an entirely new list of names.  So, given the choice betweeen going "all-in" and auditing everyone or treating it as a culture issue, we treated it as a culture issue and gave everyone a stern warning not to be the next one to have a problem. 

edit: The post I responded to has disappeared.

[Fermi2]

Sorry, I won't coddle the boy. I don't want him anywhere near any reactor that I'm either working at or living near.
When push came to shove and the going got tough he lowered his standards and sunk to the lowest common denominator.
Under similar circumstances my guess he'll do it again and I'd prefer he'd be someone elses problem. It's a difficult enough industry with the people who handle themselves well under fire let alone having those who wilt when the fire starts getting warm.

Then again that's just my opinion.

Mike

[IPREGEN]

"Everybody else was doing it", so lame that you let others affect your personal ethics. Next up, when you are de-nuked and working A-gang at a tender in Diego Garcia, you'll be telling people how the Navy screwed you when we all, and you too, know you screwed yourself. Hopefully you are learning that doing what other idiots do is not a good choice. The Navy was more interested in you success than failure but you cheated anyway and now your integrity is in question. Here is, grasshopper, the advice you seek...Grow a nut, take what they give you and move on.

[watson764]

To all of the people who are on their soapbox and saying that they have never cheated and pretending that they are perfect, let me ask you all a question.  Have you ever known what was going to be asked on an exam before the exam and then taken the time to study those questions?  Or a list of "good things to know"?  Or what drills were going to be run on you?  Maybe you looked at someone elses board sheets before you went to see the same quailifier for a board?  Or a hundred different things.  Well, I am on the Truman also and all of these things are also being considered cheating.  So before you crucify him or anyone else, maybe think about these things and look back to see if you have ever done anyone of them.


Let he who has never sinned cast the first stone.

[HydroDave63]

Have you ever known what was going to be asked on an exam before the exam and then taken the time to study those questions?  Or a list of "good things to know"?  Or what drills were going to be run on you? 

Not quite in the same league as having proctors fill in the exam for ya. Nice try though.

[watson764]

Not quite in the same league as having proctors fill in the exam for ya. Nice try though.

You're right, not the same exact thing, but considered cheating none the less.

[Fermi2]

To all of the people who are on their soapbox and saying that they have never cheated and pretending that they are perfect, let me ask you all a question.  Have you ever known what was going to be asked on an exam before the exam and then taken the time to study those questions?  Or a list of "good things to know"?  Or what drills were going to be run on you?  Maybe you looked at someone elses board sheets before you went to see the same quailifier for a board?  Or a hundred different things.  Well, I am on the Truman also and all of these things are also being considered cheating.  So before you crucify him or anyone else, maybe think about these things and look back to see if you have ever done anyone of them.


Let he who has never sinned cast the first stone.

No I haven't, I don't pay that close of attention to anything that's said in class. I get prints, procedures, and student texts and figure stuff out for myself. I'm not on a soap box.

Mike

[LT Dan]

To all of the people who are on their soapbox and saying that they have never cheated and pretending that they are perfect, let me ask you all a question.  Have you ever known what was going to be asked on an exam before the exam and then taken the time to study those questions?  Or a list of "good things to know"?  Or what drills were going to be run on you?  Maybe you looked at someone elses board sheets before you went to see the same quailifier for a board?  Or a hundred different things.  Well, I am on the Truman also and all of these things are also being considered cheating.  So before you crucify him or anyone else, maybe think about these things and look back to see if you have ever done anyone of them.


Let he who has never sinned cast the first stone.

Looking at someone's board sheet certainly should not be cheating....you had better know what the boss likes to ask, and know those questions cold!!! 
Back when I was in, I always told the guys several things that they had better know when they came to see me for the final board.  Then, during the qual board,  I would ask them one question from those items, and if they got it 4.0, I knew that they knew the other items I told them to know and I was then free to focus on other items.  If they missed the question I decided to spot check, I always failed them.

[bradley535]

There is a little feature here on Nukeworker.com that allows you to look at the past posts of a user. Before I make any kind of judgment on someone, or pretend to see things from their perspective, I read them. I would like anyone else who feels the need to comment about Bighouz's integrity and value as a Nuke to read them. Just for brevity and to illustrate my coming points, let me summarize what I've read.

BigH started posting in Feb of 2006 when he was fresh out of high school and in the DEP program. He's got about a million posts in there about helping out your fellow sailor (Even before you are a sailor "If you aren't willing to help people prepare for he ASVAB how could someone such as myself trust you to help someone on a ship or to help that person sitting next to you in class who is struggling?"). He goes on with the struggles that he faced in Power School. "Im struggling and putting in my best effort and have a 3.0 and yet im more than satisfied. High school made me a slacker at everything and I never put in any effort, but Nuke school has changed me already and now Im not satisfied with anything less than my best effort.". And again toward the end, "now I find myself constantly studying and having many sleepless nights dreading the exam the next day... But with all this I have found many positives. I find myself wanting to learn and do better. I get excited to go to the fleet and enjoy the torments of being a NUB and qualify."

These are not pushed in fabrications of the "Go-getter-sailor" that have graced orientation films like "The first 48-hours", this is the real deal. Now here he is, two years later, getting sent up to mast because he cheated... This guy is somewhere around 21 years old. He did not fail the Navy, the Navy failed him. For the love of all that is right, we send these boys (for that is what they are) into the lions den then chastise and throw them away for getting scratches.

Big, if you learn nothing else from this I want you to take away one thing. Your integrity and who you are is the most important thing. Not because of some trumped up statement that integrity is required to be a Nuke, but because it is a deep truth. You will be pushed and pulled and thrown to the wolves. The easiest paths will be laid out in front of you, but they will lead you to places you don't want to be. As a Navy veteran, I deeply and humbly apologize for what has happened to you. It should not have occurred. However, in the future you will have no excuse nor sympathy from me if it happens again. As I said, your integrity is the most important thing, and it is your responsibility to ensure that it is protected.

I certainly hope that your supervisors have the understanding needed to see that this is a failing on their part as well as yours. I also hope that you are given a second chance; from your recent and previous posts I would have been proud to have you serve alongside me when I was going through.

BZ... It's okay if you don't respond to this post. I can already assume that what you will say is that anything short of perfection is not good enough for you. I'm certain that throughout your whole life you've done nothing but eat skunk rectum and pass gas that smells like lilac bushes. Your broad sweeping and cynical view of pretty much anything and everything leads me to wonder how much of what you post is what you actually think is the truth. Please understand that I am not calling you a liar; it's just that I don't believe anything you say.

[Fermi2]

The navy didn't fail him, he failed himself. In the end, when push came to shove he let his standards drop and he caved. It's that simple. Two years ago I traded countless emails and PMs with Dennis and have a very nice thank you message he sent me for guiding him through his early trials as a nuke. So yeah I'm sad to see where Dennis has ended up but it's entirely his fault. I used to have a very high personal regard for Dennis and I'm positive he's a nice guy, I simply don't want him around any nuke at which I work. When the pressure got tough he caved and when push came to shove he let himself become part of the lowest common denominator.
As for my cynicism and what I post, there are 5 or 6 SROs who post here plus a multitude of others who I have guided through getting jobs in this industry and once they've gained employment have helped them get through their training programs. I cannot count the number of times I've spend half a night reading a schematic or a student text from ANOTHER facility to help someone because their training department didn't explain it adequately. I'm pretty sure the 20 or so people who either know me personally or that I've helped will tell you I'm pretty much everything I know myself to be. They'll all tell you I'm a hard nosed, hard arse SOB but I'm also very fair and I'll run through a brick wall if I think it'll help someone out.  But eh, I've actually accomplished something in this industry, how about you?

[bradley535]

Are you even a Nuke yet? By that I mean been through Nuke School and Qualified all your watches.

And I'm a real life qualified Shift Manager on both BWR and PWRs. A janitor.

I'm a Shift Manager at both BWRs and PWRs but I think you're lazy and was offended...

Why is it that every time someone disagrees with you, you have a formulaic response as a retort? You question their experience and shout about your own. I do have to say that you probably have more experience with the nuclear industry than any other poster here; what with you looking to retire here in 2 years. However, we are not talking about someone's abilities and expertise. If you care to take a breath and actually read the post, you will see that the discussion is on what BigH can do with what he has gotten himself in.

You say that the Navy didn't do this to him, but then who did? BigH started out 2 years ago as a promising young man ready and eager to learn. Fresh clay ready for the mold. The Navy, and all other branches of the US military, has promised to shape our young boys into the leaders of the future for generations before you were even born, BZ. Yet here you are expecting him to enter into the field an as is, ready to be, ready to lead, ready to face all, get-R-done hero before he's even fully qualified.

He was given a paper thin shield of a pumped-up, theoretical, idealistic view of what integrity meant. All of his 'integrity' training was given to him in A, Power, and Prototype Schools, then he gets to his ship and they throw him down a well shaft of 'if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying'. The same thing happened on my boat, but luckily I joined the Navy late in life and had my integrity instilled in me before I joined. There were many times that I had to fake a lack of integrity so as not to be ostracized from my peers and superiors. Thankfully, my ideals later paid off. They were even vindicated by a forced change of command and firing of an EDMC that quoted to me, "Integrity is something you keep in your pocket and use when you need it." However, in my youth, I doubt I would have had the maturity and life experience needed to make the right decisions when faced with those same instances. I would hope that I could have... but I doubt it. Perhaps you think that I too should not have my position and am unwelcome in your nuclear industry. After all, when I was BigH's age my integrity was not yet shaped and fortified to withstand all trials either. But here I am, twelve years past that, and ready to stand up for what I believe.

I read through his past posts and find promise. I read through his recent ones and find a failing. To say that the copability lies soley on him is to say that the Navy has no responsibility to uphold its centuries old tradition of making men of boys.

BigH, please understand that the entire Navy is not like what you have been through so far. There are many boats and ships and commands that can shape you into what you need to be to succeed. On the boat I served, there were five commands in the four+ years I served aboard it. The pain that your ship is going through now, may be what turns it into what the Navy promised you when you joined. Even this experience can be a blessing in disguise. It is a guaranteed life lesson that you will never forget. Make sure that when questioned, that you are honest and that you blame no one but yourself. Once again, I hope that the Navy gives you that second chance. Keep us posted.

BZ... It's sad really. I think we would be pretty good friends if you weren't such a jerk. You have a strong grip on your own integrity, you are knowledgeable, have high standards, and are usually willing to help others. However, you are mean. Not 'tough-but-fair', not 'strong-handed'... mean. That counts for something in my book, and sadly, you are on the wrong side of it.

[Fermi2]

Simple, The Navy didn't make him cheat. He cheated. Thousands of other people have made it through the nuclear program without cheating.

LOL I never said I wasn't mean. What part of hard nosed, hard arsed implies I'm anything but mean.

As for these

Quote from: Broadzilla on May 22, 2009, 14:11
Are you even a Nuke yet? By that I mean been through Nuke School and Qualified all your watches.

Quote from: Broadzilla on Apr 14, 2009, 19:23
And I'm a real life qualified Shift Manager on both BWR and PWRs. A janitor.

Quote from: Broadzilla on Mar 07, 2009, 14:34
I'm a Shift Manager at both BWRs and PWRs but I think you're lazy and was offended...

Everyone of them was true, and responses to those who were talking from a point of no knowledge. What makes you think I'd want to be your friend?

Mike

[bradley535]

Please refer to my previous commentary about skunks and lilacs.

Also refer to the discussion about not being able to believe anything you say. This is why. You don't tell the truth; you try to prove a point. I think it would be lying if it weren't that I am almost certain that you do get yourself to believe it. Take the quotes:


   The one from May 22, where you berated someone for posting with, "Are you even a Nuke yet?", was to a guy giving a post that he loved his job, and that you do get "Nuke" pay for being a "Navy Nuke". In the same post you even go on to agree with him;
His post:

A LOT of us really LOVE our job as Nukes. Please do not under estimate that, as you are still an outsider.
Officers get Nuke Bonuses, THIS IS NUKE PAY.

Your reply:

Are you even a Nuke yet? By that I mean been through Nuke School and Qualified all your watches.

In answer to Steph, Without any background whatsoever why would you assume someone wasn't telling you the truth.

1: Yes many of us love our jobs though at times I want to do something else.

2: Yes Nukes get extra bonus pay provided they meet certain qualifications and positions.

   The one from April 14, where you gave the advice that a 6.5year Nuclear Navy officer with a BS in Physics and a Masters in Operations Management was only qualified to post for a janitor position, was to a commercial nuclear recruiter. Shift Manager or not, the recruiter probably has the most valid "point of knowledge" when it comes to what experience qualifies for minimum requirements to apply.

   The one on March 07 was a post you made to someone that was asking a question, not posing as someone in the know. Your need to specify that you were infinitely more qualified was 100% unnecessary.

   And now to reply to mine with a "But I've actually accomplished something, how about you." comment. Once again, completely useless to the topic at hand. I am quite capable and knowledgeable about integrity. I've had it instilled into me since I was a little boy, and have every right to post my views on it. So once again, you have thrown about the bullying tactic in hopes to shut someone up.

   I kind of feel bad, because I goaded you and carried it through. Each time I posted, from the get-go, I knew it would elicit a response from you; how could it not. I knew you would blow some wind about why you are right and anyone disagreeing with you is wrong. I walked you through the path, but there was a reason for me doing it. Normally, I would have stayed out of this, but BigHouz came here looking for advice, and if he looks at your advice and takes it as a good source then he's making a mistake. He needs to see just what kind of person is giving him that advice, so I've shown him, and now I'm done.

   You are right in that the Navy did not make him cheat. He failed in that aspect, but from the beginning post he already knew that. He made a mistake. A bad one. The Navy will make sure he knows this. I don't think it should ruin his life or his chances at what could otherwise be a promising career.

   As for why you would want to be my friend, don't worry about it. I'm sure that you will be just fine without another friend. It's just another sunset.

[xforcehunter]

Are you guys done?  Why don't you just give one another a huge online hug and move on?

[HydroDave63]

100 quatloos for the newcomer!


On-topic: Hopefully BigHouz has seen that there is more than one train of thought on this issue, and that many of us would like to see him truthfully disclose and get a good career on track!

[Marlin]

Hopefully this was a learning event, and a new start. It will not be easy and it will rarely be fair.

[jsilvavalentin]

hey all, up date here.

13 people I know of were masted. 8 people are in the process of being discharged including myself. An incredible amount of people were implicated. Im currently i na dogfight trying to upgrade my discharge prior to being released. Most people received reduction in rate, 30 days restriction, and half months pay 1x. Im still confused how some of the people are being retained and we are being kicked out for doing the same things. take care everyone.

Wow dude! That sucks! I have a family member of mine in RE over there that I haven't talked to in a while. Hopefully he is alright and didn't get caught up in all of this. As for you, good luck with anything you decide to do in the future. Hopefully you've learned from all this that happened and take all this "leassons learned" with you to wherever you decide to go next.

As for the cheating in the nuke navy thing, while I agree that it's on you and only you to decide whether to do it or not, pretty much from the minute you get to a ship, all you see around you in the ship pretty much makes stuff like this a daily occurence. People become indifferent to it and take stuff like cheating on exams or quals for it being "normal". Now is it right? Of course not. I've seen how the quality of the operators in our Rx Department has gone downhill over the last year or so because of this, and the difference is that before we were actually expected to have knowledge before going to get a checkout (this probably from being on a precomm and having nothing else to do), while now it's more a "learn it while you stand watch" mentality. This is the same mentality that goes back to the training pipeline whenever this nukes go back for their respective instructor duty, therefore most of the nukes expect that their quals and tests will be 'given' to them with no effort from their part. I personally hate not knowing something, especially something I'm supposed to know, so I make sure I know it, but then again, I enjoy nuclear power way more than I ever thought I would.

[jsilvavalentin]

Sooooooo,....

As a civilian,.....

Should I be worried if I live near a port where nuke ships are homeported?!?!?!?

Should I be worried if a Navy Nuclear Prototype is in my backyard?!?!?!?!

Are you guys safe?!?!?!?!?

I don't think anyone should be worried about any of our operations whether its a ship or a prototype. I mean there are incompetent people working in all kinds of industries, and stuff like this happens at one point or another in any place, navy or not. I will not even fathom the thought of thinking that I know everything about the nuclear navy, or nuclear power in general, but I know that we operate as safe as we could ever be, even with the hiccups here and there. I think it is our goal and our mission as navy nukes to keep operating as safe as we have and to stop this things like cheating on a CTE from happening whenever they come up by any means available. Being human is a journey where you learn everyday, and so is being a nuke. You can know the RPMs word by word and still be the most incompetent PPWS or CRW or RO. But that is no excuse for lacking integrity and I agree with weeding out the people that cheat their way around. I agree that it should be stopped. But its naive to believe that this doesn't happen anywhere else. All we can do is stop ot whenever we see it, and make those that come after us better operators and better people.

[Harley Rider]

You can know the RPMs word by word and still be the most incompetent PPWS or CRW or RO.

You nailed it there my friend but you forgot to include Chengs, Reactor Officers, Principal Assistants and PPWOs. I will comment on this thread further after I formulate my thoughts on it. Don't want to get anymore PMs from the staff on my personal feelings 

[Preciousblue1965]

I agree with Jsilva about the "learn it on watch" mentality is becoming prevalent.  That being said, there is some wisdom to that notion.  There are simply things that you truly learn while you are on watch that you would never get from a book.  Little tidbits of how two identical machines will operate totally different in certain situations.  Nothing is a better learning experience, in my beliefs, as having to figure out a procedure on your own using just the book and your cognitive abilities.  The other thing that you absolutely CAN NOT get from a book or a qual card is CONFINDENCE.  It is one thing to be qualified to stand a watch and another to be confident that no matter what drill or actual casualty gets thrown at you, you can carry out your actions, recover, and not even miss a set of logs. 

[IRLFAN]

I'm pretty sure the 20 or so people who either know me personally or that I've helped will tell you I'm pretty much everything I know myself to be. They'll all tell you I'm a hard nosed, hard arse SOB but I'm also very fair and I'll run through a brick wall if I think it'll help someone out. 

I'd say that's a pretty good description, specificly the SOB part (just kidding Mike).   

And no I'm not agreeing because Mike helped me get a job, he didn't.  I met Mike after I already had the job. Pretty much everything he posts here rings true to the man I knew.  I wish that he were still in his previous position, because we badly need people like him.

[Fermi2]

Wow thank you IRLFan. Coming from you what you just posted means a heck of a lot. I must have done something right up there. I greatly appreciate your opinion of me and trust me, it's likewise towards you!

Mike

[M1Ark]

I'll run through a brick wall if I think it'll help someone out.

Or a youth tackling sled... LMAO

He's not as much a hard ass as you might think.  He's views are the same as mine but his delivery is very different.  But at least you won't get double talk from, Mike.  He calls it like he sees it. 

On a side note... he is a very funny dude to work with.  Ask him about the Brittany Spears and Cheetos story, or the bathroom urinal placement and use theory.  It might lighten your mood towards Broadzilla.

[M1Ark]

Sooooooo,....

As a civilian,.....

Should I be worried if I live near a port where nuke ships are homeported?!?!?!?

Should I be worried if a Navy Nuclear Prototype is in my backyard?!?!?!?!

Are you guys safe?!?!?!?!?

Nah... those baby reactors were design for 18 year olds. 

[M1Ark]

I'd say that's a pretty good description, specificly the SOB part (just kidding Mike).   

And no I'm not agreeing because Mike helped me get a job, he didn't.  I met Mike after I already had the job. Pretty much everything he posts here rings true to the man I knew.  I wish that he were still in his previous position, because we badly need people like him.

IRLFAN,

Judging by your user name and association with Mike from the land up north that you are a Fermi I&C Tech.  (PM inbound)

[Fermi2]

Or a youth tackling sled... LMAO

He's not as much a hard ass as you might think.  He's views are the same as mine but his delivery is very different.  But at least you won't get double talk from, Mike.  He calls it like he sees it. 

On a side note... he is a very funny dude to work with.  Ask him about the Brittany Spears and Cheetos story, or the bathroom urinal placement and use theory.  It might lighten your mood towards Broadzilla.

GRRRR the blocking sled. I still maintain that sled would have broken an NFL Linemans back. I doubt I ever outlive that one !!!!

[Bighouz107501]

For all those interested the whole investigation is the cover story for the navy times this month

[IPREGEN]

Here is the on-line version
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2009/11/navy_truman_112309w/

[jowlman]

Not to pick on someone, but I would be curious to know if Broadzilla was implicated in the "Icebaby" incident during SQN's SGR and the follow up investigation. People might not have cheated, but there were definitely some integrity violations going on then.

[Higgins]

I think you guys are right and wrong with some things about the Navy exams. From my experience on submarines as a training P.O. for 2 years the exams are very political. You can't have too many failures, you can't have too little failures, your average G.P.A. can't be too high/low. These are unrealistic expectations from the command. Worse, if any of the above happens you get yelled at, have to resubmit new tests for review, have to explain personally to the X.O. why you're division's grades are so different this month compared to previous months. After beating my head against the wall for a couple of months I usually submitted a test, but then tore the last couple of pages out, gave my guys the 3-4 questions that I thought would challenge them, and graded them on a bell curve to what the command wanted. I never considered this cheating nor lowering my integrity, but you have to be careful about what other people perceive.

I do agree that integrity should be top priority as well as standing a safe and productive watch. But a lot of sailors cheat because the system is designed for failure from an administrative point of view. I made it a personal point to never allow someone to qualify a watch station that I felt had insufficient knowledge. I wouldn't hesitate to scratch signatures and spend some extra time to teach something to junior personnel.

We need to correct the root problems that cause this. Excessive under-manning, longer hours, increased operational commitments, and older plants that require more maintenance and 'care' just exacerbate the issue. Occasionally you have to put something off until you have time for it later and it's usually continual training tests or miscellaneous paperwork. You're right to condemn someone for cheating, it shouldn't be allowed at all, but don't point the finger solely at the individual.

[cruzcampo]

I'm no expert about anything in the commercial end of the industry, but from other managerial experiences outside of the industry, I can say I have taken place in the hunting down and eliminating of personell who felt it necessary to lower their standards and, in effect, steal from the company I was working for.  In one case, my boss decided to pardon one such employee and allow him to keep his job. 

This particular experience taught me two lessons:

1) Absolutes are fallacies.  I had said myself that I would never want this employee working for me again and yet, by the time I left the company, he was my best employee.  Never say never.

2)  Redemption is possible, but it depends on the individual's drive to redeem themselves.

To the integrity issue I will say only this, I can certainly see that it is getting to be a harder place to maintain it, and that what should be black and white is shifting to various shades of grey.  I don't know if it's possible to judge anyone accurately if they fought the good fight and lost.  It happens.  Go break open your bible and read Job. 

I'm trying to remember who it was but there was a 49ers game years ago where there a particular defensive lineman got an offsides.  He came back on the next down and sacked the quarterback for a big loss on the next down.  Later they were reviewing the videos and this particular lineman was blushing when the coach pointed out the offsides and told everyone to watch.  He was embarrassed.  Then they showed the sack and the coach went and said something to the effect of the mistakes we make are less important than what we do after we make them.

Now I know there's a Rickover quote about success teaching nothing, and only failure teaching.  Gnaw on that a little.