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Offline sovbob

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Integrity
« on: May 20, 2009, 05:05 »
After reading through Bighouz107501's thread about a CTE cheating scandal onboard the USS Truman, I noticed that it sparked a lively debate regarding integrity.  The original posting wasn't about integrity, but rather about what Bighouz107501's options were in the aftermath of this scandal.  So I decided I would start a separate thread because I think it's an engaging and important topic to discuss.

You can read the original thread here:
http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,18370.0.html
"Everyone's entitled to be stupid now and then, but you're abusing the privilege."

Offline DLGN25

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2009, 07:46 »
You just relieved the RO for your 8 hour shutdown watch.  The engine room is staffed with just you and the MM at the charging station.  You are continuing the cool down cycle started earlier.  Half way through you watch you notice the plots for pressure and temperature are against the heat up curve, not the cool down.  The plant will be at the ordered temperature in a couple more hours.

What do you do?  No one but you know that the previous watch(s) started the mistake and you continued it.  So not from a technical point of view, but from one of integrity, how would you handle this situation?
Surely oak and three-fold brass surrounded his heart who first trusted a frail vessel to a merciless ocean.  Horace

Offline sovbob

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2009, 01:12 »
From the very beginning, nukes are taught that integrity is the cornerstone, the foundation of everything we do.  People aren't perfect (not even you, ELTs).  People make mistakes, and by admitting those mistakes we can address the problem.

I can think of two separate incidents in which I was faced with a difficult situation.  The first time, I improperly reassembled the bus rings on an SSMG.  The chief didn't catch it on his closeout inspection.  We started it up, and the one of the rings had a high resistance connection, causing an explosion inside the machine and about $250,000 worth of repairs.

At the critique, I admitted that it was in fact I who had messed up, as well as the chief.  In the end, nobody went to Captain's Mast, and nobody got disqualified.  But it was still a pretty unpleasant time.

The other incident involved me falling asleep on watch.  I was the containment watch during a grueling shiftwork period, in which I had not had even close to adequate sleep.  But I relieved the watch anyway.  I was found, relieved, and promptly sent up in front of the Old Man.  It was, to say the least, an extremely unpleasant time in my naval career.

In my statements, I was forthright and honest, claiming that I had not had adequate sleep (it had been several 16-hour days in a row).  In spite of this, I was standing in front of the green tablecloth.  The CO, recognizing the situation, gave me a slap on the wrist along with 45 days extra duty and a suspended bust.  I have no doubt in my mind that things would have turned out very differently if I had chosen a different path.

So I'm here to tell you that your fate will be better when you admit your mistakes.  Chalk one up for integrity.

But why do we have so many cases of people violating their integrity in the Navy?  Are these people sleazy?  Would they rather take the easy route?  I don't think it's as simple as that.  It's easy to say "They violated their integrity and so we should hammer them until they're a puddle of greasy black goo."  And they should be punished, rightly so.

But recognize that nobody shows up to their command with the intention of cheating.  Take, for example, an ELT.  His job (one of them anyway) is to sample and maintain chemistry within a tight specification.  That's fine, so he diligently samples the water and comes up with the results.  But when he presents these results to the officer, the officer scratches his head and says "Why is pH doing this?"  The ELT reaches into his magic chemistry hat and pulls out a reason.  "It's because we changed flugelbinders yesterday, and so our temperature corrected barflagett, which follows this graph is higher than it usually is.  It's still in spec, sir."  The officer scratches his head and says "Ehhh, I dunno.  Maybe you did the analysis wrong.  Go sample it again."  Now the ELT knows that chemistry is perfectly fine.  These analysis are inherently inaccurate, but the officer won't feel comfortable unless it comes out as he expects.  So the ELT can either sample the water three or four more times, or he can just fudge the numbers and go on with the rest of his business.

Now hold on a minute.  You might be thinking "So what if he samples it three or four more times?  It's more important to get it right than violate your integrity."  And you do make a point.  It is VERY important to get it right, because the consequences of getting it wrong can be dire.  But this chemistry result falls well within specification, it just doesn't follow the "expected" results, because the tests are inaccurate.

On a fast-attack submarine, you are pulled in a hundred different directions.  There never seems to be enough time to get it all done.  There's a mountain of paperwork, field day, training, tests, corrective maintenance, preventative maintenance, standing watch, planning out schedules, qualifications, etc.  And oh yeah, you're short handed.  Needless to say, you're as busy as a one-armed octopus.  And so it comes down to a matter of prioritizing.

In a perfect world, everybody would be able to devote adequate attention to every task that is set before them.  Unfortunately, life on a submarine is far from perfect.  It's more like a long series of crisis management.  The most important thing on the ship was not training, not cleaning, not meals, not sleep, not quals.  It was getting the ship ready to go to sea and doing whatever it took to get there.

We worked hard, long hours.  We struggled to maintain a high standard of excellence.  And occasionally we got a few precious hours off the boat.  We tried to help our fellow shipmates.  But in the end, there was simply too much work, and not enough people.  And so you have to compromise.  Take the most important things, and do them right.  If your training suffers, so be it.  If the cleanliness of the ship suffers, so be it.  At least your ship is out at sea.

I don't think it's laziness that makes people violate their integrity.  I've seen some of the best, brightest, and hardest-working people in my life violate their integrity again and again in the name of getting work accomplished.  Should they have done it the right way?  Of course.  But when you're slogging through it day after day, far from the pristine white halls of Naval Reactors Offices, it's easy to stray from the path.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 01:20 by sovbob »
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JustinHEMI05

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2009, 10:03 »
You just relieved the RO for your 8 hour shutdown watch.  The engine room is staffed with just you and the MM at the charging station.  You are continuing the cool down cycle started earlier.  Half way through you watch you notice the plots for pressure and temperature are against the heat up curve, not the cool down.  The plant will be at the ordered temperature in a couple more hours.

What do you do?  No one but you know that the previous watch(s) started the mistake and you continued it.  So not from a technical point of view, but from one of integrity, how would you handle this situation?

I like this game.

You are SRW on a sat night around 1 am. You are out doing your rounds when you hear the distinct sounds of valves stroking. You run to the box to find out that the bored SRO wanted to play a game called "How far does the switch go before valves stroke." The SRO is in a panick.

What do you do?

Justin

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2009, 10:12 »
Wikipedia [skyNet, the Borg, the assimilation of all knowledge] has an interesting discussion on Integrity at:  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrity

Without repeating the whole thing here, it seemed to focus on the completeness and consistency of a value system.  Here's an excerpt:

"The etymology of the word "integrity" stems from the Latin adjective integer (whole, complete). In this context, integrity may comprise the personal inner sense of "wholeness" deriving from (say) honesty and consistency of character. As such, one can judge that others "have integrity" to the extent that one judges whether they behave according to the values, beliefs and principles they claim to hold."  

I know how the khaks define Integrity, and not surprisingly, that definition ideally suits their needs, but I'm not sure that that's really it.  My idea of integrity is to always focus on team success, nurture and grow everyone who's willing to contribute, take responsability for all that you touch, and never throw anyone under the bus.  Having lived this code consistently has served me, the organizations that I've served, and those that served with me very well.  I'm not sure that that's not a good example of integrity.

I think the Navy Nuke definition of Integrity is closer to what we called "honor" at VMI:  "I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do."  Although, I always thought that they missed the boat on that word too.  I knew plenty of cadets who never lied, cheated, or stole, but were far from honorable men.

I think that honor and integrity are very good things.  I'm just not sure that we all know what they really mean, and some rigid, dogmatic code is rarely the answer.

mgm



Offline sovbob

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2009, 02:16 »
I like this game.

You are SRW on a sat night around 1 am. You are out doing your rounds when you hear the distinct sounds of valves stroking. You run to the box to find out that the bored SRO wanted to play a game called "How far does the switch go before valves stroke." The SRO is in a panick.

What do you do?

Justin

I'll do you one better.

It's Saturday morning in port, 0640.  The EDO wants to get the primary sample done early in the morning and get it out of the way before duty section turnover at 0700.  So the ELT is in the lab, getting ready to head down to the primary sample sink.  The EDO orders the SRO (an EM1) to open the IX isolation valve.  The SRO says it's not necessary yet, and premature opening of the valve will unnecessarily cool down the plant.  The EDO orders the SRO to open the valve again.  The SRO says "You do it, sir."  The EDO, feeling particularly ballsy, walks over to the RPCP and defiantly turns the switch.

...Except it wasn't the IX isolation valve control, it was the RCLIV switch right next to it.

It's now 0645.  Duty section turnover is going to happen in 15 minutes.  What do you do?

Note:  I can neither confirm nor deny that I may have known an EM1 and an EDO at one time, nor can I confirm or deny the authenticity of this scenario.
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Offline G-reg

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2009, 02:26 »
Let's not get too carried away with (hypothetical) kiss-and-tell stories here.  The walls have ears...
"But that's just my opinion - I could be wrong."
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Offline sovbob

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2009, 02:29 »
You're absolutely right.

The precedeing story may or may not have happened years ago.
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Offline DLGN25

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2009, 04:13 »
There seems to be a thought that things were different back then then now.  I do not think so.  From my experience in the fleet from 1968-70, many examples come to mind that would question the integrity of individuals in the crew.  That said, nothing I saw, or experienced, that went unreported would hazard the plant or the ship's mission.  What I did see was when mistakes were made, and they were big mistakes, they were reported.

Was this a lack of integrity or was it weighing the response to the admission to a mistake?   Forty years ago, I and my shipmates operated under fear of the command and retribution from ourselves.  (Note: by command I am not referring to the Chief Engineer or the MPA, they were hard driving and demanding, but fair men.  I am referring to the fear of having Rickover grilling you). This fear factor entered all the decisions we made and I do not think it made us better then then now.  For this reason, the hypothetical heat up curve vs cool down curve error I posed would not be reported.

In closing, I have not experienced what it is like "now", but the "back then" was not all that perfect or full of integrity as some may like to believe.

Surely oak and three-fold brass surrounded his heart who first trusted a frail vessel to a merciless ocean.  Horace

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2009, 10:31 »
I just wanted to clarify that my scenario is purely hypothetical.

Justin

Offline sovbob

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2009, 11:44 »
So is mine.   :)
"Everyone's entitled to be stupid now and then, but you're abusing the privilege."

Fermi2

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2009, 02:18 »
Here,

I assign someone to go do a job and they go out, use procedures and if something goes wrong and even if it's due to their negligence they come up and say Mikey, I screwed up.

I leave a half complete test on a table. I walk away and those who were left in the room do not look at the exam, even though they know I've probably just written the key. That's integrity.

Someone is out working a job, they bring it back with all steps initialed and I know they initial only if the item was done correctly and their readings are correct. That's integrity.

It's the real world out there people, NOT a dictionary!

JustinHEMI05

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2009, 02:25 »
+1. In my short commercial career, I have yet to see integrity as an issue out here. I am not saying there aren't integrity issues, just that I haven't seen them yet. In contrast, someone's integrity was always in question everywhere I went in the Navy. Interesting, thanks for pointing that out Mike.

Justin
« Last Edit: May 22, 2009, 02:26 by JustinHEMI »

Offline Marlin

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2009, 02:29 »
   This is a very dangerous subject and I will not use any first person stories but I will retell a story from WWII. As many may know the Navy had a problem early in the war with torpedo's that were not hitting their targets and not exploding on contact. The Navy (the bureaucrats) insisted that the problem was the operation of the weapons by the crews and forbid them to alter the settings made in the weapons depots. To ensure that the settings were not altered the depot would seal the openings with a spot of paint so that they would know if the panels were opened. The submarine crews were able to make modifications to the torpedo's anyway because the personnel in the depots would supply a small can of paint to the crew so that they could remark the weapon after adjustments. This fixed the problem with the torpedo's running depth but the problem of not exploding on contact was not solved until Admiral Lockwood fired a number of torpedo's into a cliff proving tho the Weapons group that there was a problem (he dissected diagnosed the problem as well).
   When I look at integrity I see the Barney Fife style of integrity and the Sherriff Taylor brand of integrity. I had a chief whom I respected who described the Navy career as having a lot of mud puddles you should avoid but there will come a time when you will have to step in one and hope it is not to deep. It all comes down to doing the right thing. Cheating on a test is not on the scope for integrity of any type but we know it happens even in the Naval Academy, a large part of the class was lost to this integrity violation in the 70s.

   Bottom line, do the right thing and be willing to take the consequences for any action. Some of our greatest leader's have stepped outside the lines when required.

Fermi2

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2009, 02:38 »
Cheating or helping others to cheat isn't stepping outside the lines. It's a downright foul worth ejecting a player over.

As a Shift Manager I've had to step outside the lines when something wasn't clearly defined or no definition or procedural guidance was not available for something I KNEW (vice wanted) had to be done. I stepped outside the lines there, and in some cases it didn't work out so well. I raised my hand, said I made that decision and here is why, took whatever lumps needed to be taken and moved on. That's not cheating but would fall under stepping outside the lines.

Mike

Offline Marlin

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2009, 03:24 »
Cheating or helping others to cheat isn't stepping outside the lines. It's a downright foul worth ejecting a player over.

As a Shift Manager I've had to step outside the lines when something wasn't clearly defined or no definition or procedural guidance was not available for something I KNEW (vice wanted) had to be done. I stepped outside the lines there, and in some cases it didn't work out so well. I raised my hand, said I made that decision and here is why, took whatever lumps needed to be taken and moved on. That's not cheating but would fall under stepping outside the lines.

Mike

   I don't think we disagree on this point but the subject seemed to open to integrity beyond a classroom setting. I did say that "Cheating on a test is not on the scope for integrity of any type". The scenarios above were operational and open to judgement. In my opinion not up to the mudpuddle test that would make you much too dirty for benefit derived. While in the Navy, I was the watch on the charge/discharge station and took action outside of procedure without permission. This was a mudpuddle that earned me a commendation from the CO for quick action mitigating a potentially adverse condition. I acted within my training but outside of procedural compliance. I am just saying Integrity is not always black and white. A bureaucrat would view it much differently than someone in the trenches.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2009, 03:42 by Marlin »

Offline RDTroja

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2009, 12:20 »
Here,

I assign someone to go do a job and they go out, use procedures and if something goes wrong and even if it's due to their negligence they come up and say Mikey, I screwed up.

I leave a half complete test on a table. I walk away and those who were left in the room do not look at the exam, even though they know I've probably just written the key. That's integrity.

Someone is out working a job, they bring it back with all steps initialed and I know they initial only if the item was done correctly and their readings are correct. That's integrity.

It's the real world out there people, NOT a dictionary!

If you left the test out uncontrolled, that is probably a procedural violation and at least a compromise of the test. If you then used that test, knowing it had been compromised, that is a violation of integrity... no matter who you trust.
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Fermi2

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2009, 02:08 »
I am fully allowed to leave a test on a table with a proctor present and yes even with a proctor it is possible for someone to look at your test. Even at that, there is nothing anywhere that says I am responsible for controlling my exam. Don't confuse an honest mistake with an integrity violation.
It's a moot point since it rarely takes me over 25 minutes to complete an exam so it'd never happen anyway.

Mike

Offline elwood

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2009, 03:12 »
I have to agree with everything BZ has said.  Integrity is everything in this busisness.  If you cheat on a test what other shortcuts are you going to take? If I can't trust your word then I don't want to work with you.  It is that simple.


Khak-Hater

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2009, 04:44 »
It's the real world out there people, NOT a dictionary!

"Inconceivable"

"You keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means."

Yes, we all live in the real world too, but the discussion is on the word and/or concept of integrity.  I'm suggesting that the single-minded definition that's in your head may not be what it really is.  I'm sure that it's nice for some of you to have such certainty that you don't even have to consider the definition, but that kind of certainty can have negative effects.

For example, how would you define the word good?  What are some examples of good actions?
-  a Nazi might be certain that killing Jews is good.
-  a radical Islamic terrorist might be certain that killing infidels is good.
-  a sixtenth century Jesuit Inquisitor might be certain that torturing heretics until they confess and convert to Catholicism is good. 

All of these people lived in the real world and were very certain that they understood the definition of the word.  Personally, I think that they might've been slightly confused.

As a manager in this business, do I want to be able to trust an that an employees actions are trustworthy?  Yes.  I'd also like to know that they are loyal to our cause.  I'd also like to know that they're competent, but more importantly that they'll recognize it and ask for help when they're not.  I'd love for them to never make mistakes, but I kind of understand when they do.  I'd rather that they actually do some work than be so frightened of screwing up that they never do.  There are a lot of positive traits that I'd hope that they might exhibit, but I don't kid myself by thinking that there's some essential truth that they must understand exactly as I understand it for them to be useful employees for my organization.

I don't think that anyone is useless refuse because of a single mistake or period of weakness.  Personally, I've sinned more in what I've failed to do than in what I've done.  One way or another, we are all in need of grace. 

mgm

Offline LOKI RAD

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2009, 04:51 »
Well said.  8)

Khak-Hater

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2009, 08:04 »
Not to belabor the point, but plenty of Nazis and terrorists, as well as most inquisitors, died with their integrity of conviction intact.  The ones who don't die for their cause (e.g., run and hide) lack the faith and fervor to do so.  Your logic would indicate that those who were so fanatical to have died for their cause were better men [or maybe that they simply had more integrity].  This only further illuminates the point that single-minded integrity based on a poorly founded or understood dogma isn't necessarily a good thing.  Personally, I've never believed in a cause so fervently that I intentionally gave my life for it, nor do I think that any of you have, unless you're posting from the other side [which begs the question "Do they have Nukeworker.com in heaven?].

Regarding our late pope, he has little in common with the inquisitors of old, other than nominally sharing catholicism.  He was the kind of man who stood up to inquisitors (e.g., Nazis, communists, etc.).  His reasonable consideration of the church's past sins is no reflection on the convictions of the "men of integrity" who committed those sins, most of whom who had the luxury of going to their graves certain of their virtue.

Ex nihilo nihil fit,

mgm

Offline RDTroja

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2009, 10:06 »
I am fully allowed to leave a test on a table with a proctor present and yes even with a proctor it is possible for someone to look at your test. Even at that, there is nothing anywhere that says I am responsible for controlling my exam. Don't confuse an honest mistake with an integrity violation.
It's a moot point since it rarely takes me over 25 minutes to complete an exam so it'd never happen anyway.

Mike

Nice dance.

Are you writing the test in the example or taking it? Your statement about 'writing the answer key' made me think you were writing the test, but your ego would allow for you to make that statement if you were taking the test, too. In your example, you said nothing about proctors and if there is a proctor there (doing his/her job), of course there is no violation but there is no test of integrity, either. Those without integrity who are left in the room don't get to look at the test because there is a proctor there... it is not an uncontrolled test.

Whether you are the test author or the test taker, you most certainly are responsible for controlling your test (which can include leaving it in the control of an authorized individual) and if you don't believe that you are a fool. I bet you sign a statement when you take a test stating (in effect) that you have not given or received unauthorized help during the exam. Leaving the test for others to see is giving help. That was not the point anyway. The integrity violation is not leaving the test uncontrolled, it is using the test after knowing it was compromised... and compromised means that it was left improperly controlled, not that you are sure that someone has seen it. Honest mistakes are fine if corrected. In the case of a compromised test, that means making another that is not compromised and not using the original.

I know you are a Mary Poppins clone ("Practically perfect in every way") because you so often point it out to the rest of us in your 'unwashed masses' category, but if you are writing tests and making answer keys in 25 minutes you are making lousy tests (or cutting and pasting from others.) If you are taking tests in 25 minutes, that is not hard to believe or unusual but go ahead and pat yourself on the back. As far as that rendering the point moot, then why did you use it as an example in the first place?
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heavymetal atom

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2009, 11:14 »

I leave a half complete test on a table. I walk away and those who were left in the room do not look at the exam, even though they know I've probably just written the key. That's integrity.


RDTroja, I have to admit that I got a chuckle from your post.  However, the Broadzilla bashing does seem a bit over the top.  All of this discussion about "controlling your test" is rather beside the point.  BZ never referred to the integrity (or lack thereof) inherent in leaving the test half complete in a room full of test takers.  That wasn't the point of the example.  The point was that the others in the room didn't cheat off of his test, and in doing so they displayed integrity.  Maybe it's not the best example ever given, but give the guy a break.  Making Mary Poppins references and questioning his test making skills seems a bit extreme when based solely on this one hypothetical scenario, am I right? 

-Tim     

Offline retired nuke

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2009, 11:20 »
RDTroja, I have to admit that I got a chuckle from your post.  However, the Broadzilla bashing does seem a bit over the top.  All of this discussion about "controlling your test" is rather beside the point.   

-Tim     

Is "controlling your test" anything like "mastering your domain"??  ;)
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Offline Marlin

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2009, 11:26 »
Is "controlling your test" anything like "mastering your domain"??  ;)

Yes... you can smell the testosterone in the room (Forum).   :P

Offline RDTroja

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2009, 11:46 »
RDTroja, I have to admit that I got a chuckle from your post.  However, the Broadzilla bashing does seem a bit over the top.  All of this discussion about "controlling your test" is rather beside the point.  BZ never referred to the integrity (or lack thereof) inherent in leaving the test half complete in a room full of test takers.  That wasn't the point of the example.  The point was that the others in the room didn't cheat off of his test, and in doing so they displayed integrity.  Maybe it's not the best example ever given, but give the guy a break.  Making Mary Poppins references and questioning his test making skills seems a bit extreme when based solely on this one hypothetical scenario, am I right? 

-Tim     

If you got a chuckle then you got the point. He was giving an example of what he called integrity when there was a more obvious violation taking place, then he danced to say the situation wasn't what he said and danced further to say he really didn't do it and gave an encore performance to say his own example was invalid in the first place because he's too good to do what he posited. Didn't have enough bullshit flags to throw.

What I was trying to accomplish was poking, not bashing. BZ has been putting people down (sometimes hard) on this site for years because he feels so superior to the rest of us. I am sure he thinks he is justified in doing so, but that doesn't matter (and only proves him wrong.) Overinflated egos just need a poke now and then. I just couldn't resist.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 12:08 by RDTroja »
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Re: Integrity
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2009, 11:58 »
If you got a chuckle then you got the point. He was giving an example of what he called integrity when there was a more obvious violation taking place, then he danced to say the situation wasn't what he said and danced further to say he really didn't do it and gave an encore performance to say his own example was invalid in the first place because he too good to do what he posited. Didn't have enough bullshit flags to throw.

What I was trying to accomplish was poking, not bashing. BZ has been putting people down (sometimes hard) on this site for years because he feels so superior to the rest of us. I am sure he thinks he is justified in doing so, but that doesn't matter (and only proves him wrong.) Overinflated egos just need a poke now and then. I just couldn't resist.

Fair enough.  I can't argue with you there.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 11:59 by Heavymetal Atom »

Offline Preciousblue1965

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2009, 08:04 »
I swear I had a drawing for just such an occasion........(trying to remember where it went).
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Offline Neutron Whisperer

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2009, 10:43 »
Can integrity be trained into people?
Disclaimer: there is no "tone" to my post.

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #30 on: Jun 01, 2009, 02:43 »
Can integrity be trained into people?

I agree.  The short answer to your question is 'no'.

To elaborate a little, every time a person makes a decision it's based on the cost/benefit ratio of the (apparent) options available.  Sometimes these decisions are easy, and the cost/benefit determination is transparent.  Other times these decisions weigh heavily upon us and are given considerable thought.

Such is the case when a person chooses to violate their integrity.  They consider the options and choose the one with the lowest cost/benefit ratio given the information available at the time.

So all you would need to do to influence a person's decision to violate their integrity would be to change the cost/benefit ratio.  If you increase the severity of punishment, you have now increased the cost.

"In the late 60s, Gary Becker incorporated into his formal model of deterrence theory an explicit statement that the theory´s components—certainty and severity of punishment—are more or less influential than one another depending on an individual´s preference for risk. The certainty of punishment is more influential than the severity of punishment in the decision of whether or not to commit crime if an individual is risk acceptant..."

In other words, a person is less likely to cheat if there is a proctor diligently observing the test.  So the cost becomes not necessarily the severity of the punishment, but also the risk of being caught.  Increased supervison leads to a higher risk (and hence cost) associated with the choice to violate one's integrity.

So all you need to do is watch your workers, review every action, breathe down their necks, not trust them, and make sure they understand that severe punishments will be meted out to those who don't do as they're told, and you won't have any integrity violations.  Sounds kinda fascist, but it works.

The alternative is to raise the perceived benefit of making the "right" choice.  In some cases, the benefit might simply be leniency in punishment.  It might be job satisfaction, or avoidance of a worse situation in the future.

So all you need to do is convince your workers that making the "right" choice may be harder in the short term, but will pay off big dividends in the future.  This raises the perceived benefit of not violating ones integrity.

While certainly the 2nd option is more sustainable, economically feasible, and conducive to morale in general, it's much more difficult to accomplish.  That's why you often see people favor the 1st option.

Getting back to the original question about whether you can instill integrity into a person.  You can train a person (through a combination of both positive and negative reinforcement) to act a certain way and behave a certain way.  But if they don't believe that doing things the "right" way is important, then the only thing holding them back from violating their integrity is the risk of being caught/punished.

And we all know that you can't supervise everybody every minute of the day.

So perhaps a better answer to your question is "Probably not" since it takes a LOT of training to change a person's attitude.
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Offline Preciousblue1965

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #31 on: Jun 01, 2009, 04:30 »
You mean this one?
 

Ohhhh Nooooo Mr. Bill!  We had to break into a locked thread to retrieve this post.

Yeppers that would be the one.  Ahhhhh the memories.
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Offline DDMurray

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #32 on: Jun 01, 2009, 05:38 »
I agree.  The short answer to your question is 'no'.

To elaborate a little, every time a person makes a decision it's based on the cost/benefit ratio of the (apparent) options available.  Sometimes these decisions are easy, and the cost/benefit determination is transparent.  Other times these decisions weigh heavily upon us and are given considerable thought.

Such is the case when a person chooses to violate their integrity.  They consider the options and choose the one with the lowest cost/benefit ratio given the information available at the time.

So all you would need to do to influence a person's decision to violate their integrity would be to change the cost/benefit ratio.  If you increase the severity of punishment, you have now increased the cost.

"In the late 60s, Gary Becker incorporated into his formal model of deterrence theory an explicit statement that the theory´s components—certainty and severity of punishment—are more or less influential than one another depending on an individual´s preference for risk. The certainty of punishment is more influential than the severity of punishment in the decision of whether or not to commit crime if an individual is risk acceptant..."

In other words, a person is less likely to cheat if there is a proctor diligently observing the test.  So the cost becomes not necessarily the severity of the punishment, but also the risk of being caught.  Increased supervison leads to a higher risk (and hence cost) associated with the choice to violate one's integrity.

So all you need to do is watch your workers, review every action, breathe down their necks, not trust them, and make sure they understand that severe punishments will be meted out to those who don't do as they're told, and you won't have any integrity violations.  Sounds kinda fascist, but it works.

The alternative is to raise the perceived benefit of making the "right" choice.  In some cases, the benefit might simply be leniency in punishment.  It might be job satisfaction, or avoidance of a worse situation in the future.

So all you need to do is convince your workers that making the "right" choice may be harder in the short term, but will pay off big dividends in the future.  This raises the perceived benefit of not violating ones integrity.

While certainly the 2nd option is more sustainable, economically feasible, and conducive to morale in general, it's much more difficult to accomplish.  That's why you often see people favor the 1st option.

Getting back to the original question about whether you can instill integrity into a person.  You can train a person (through a combination of both positive and negative reinforcement) to act a certain way and behave a certain way.  But if they don't believe that doing things the "right" way is important, then the only thing holding them back from violating their integrity is the risk of being caught/punished.

And we all know that you can't supervise everybody every minute of the day.

So perhaps a better answer to your question is "Probably not" since it takes a LOT of training to change a person's attitude.

Leadership according to Murray.  There are three general types of nukes in the navy.
1.  Strong work ethic, raised that any job worth doing is worth doing right.  They'll do well not matter what.
2.  Guy (or gal) that doesn't like what they're doing, but they care enough about their peers, that they don't want to bag them so they'll do the right thing most of the time.
3.  Guy doesn't like what he's doing and he'll do the right thing to minimize any pain that falling short of expectations will bring, so they'll reluctantly do the right thing, especially when watched.

There are some people that are combinations and some that are motivated by recognition, but people generally fall into one of these categories.  Our job as leaders is to turn people into # 1 or at least get the most out of their talents.  If you can get someone to see the reasons for doing things right, they are much more likely to grow into it vice the "my way or the highway" mentality. 

This same basic concept applies to integrity to some extent.  Depending on your upbringing (and training), some things may not appear as obvious integrity violations.  Cheating on an exam doesn't fall into that category.  Everybody knows it is wrong.  When the command culture makes it easier to take shortcuts (or harder to do the right thing), then we test everybody's integrity.  Once a senior guy condones cheating (or lets it get by) then you've opened the floodgates (i.e. the Hampton).  I've been lucky enough to never have served where cheating was the norm.   

Derek
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Offline Neutron Whisperer

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #33 on: Jun 05, 2009, 06:23 »

So all you need to do is convince your workers that making the "right" choice may be harder in the short term, but will pay off big dividends in the future.  This raises the perceived benefit of not violating ones integrity.


That's too much work.  It's far easier to have an incident, critique it, remove people from watch standing, determine corrective actions, conduct training, document everything, report your corrective actions to your superiors...have an incident, critique it...
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Re: Integrity
« Reply #34 on: Jun 05, 2009, 06:28 »
1: It's not ego when you can back it up.

2: No leaving a test on a desk is not giving unauthorized help as I should be able to trust me peers.

3: Yes, whenever I take an exam and hand it in I have handed in the key. I'm that good.

Mike

Offline RDTroja

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #35 on: Jun 08, 2009, 10:41 »
1: It's not ego when you can back it up.

2: No leaving a test on a desk is not giving unauthorized help as I should be able to trust me peers.

3: Yes, whenever I take an exam and hand it in I have handed in the key. I'm that good.

Mike

Yes, it is still ego. It may be what you consider justified, but it is still ego. And if you consider it justified that is more evidence of egotism. Sorry to break the news to you. Blowing your own horn is just noise and is never justified unless you are applying for a job. Bragging (yes it is still bragging even if it is accurate) is boorish behaviour no matter who it comes from.

Leaving an unattended test out is a compromise of the test no matter who you trust. If we could just trust everyone there would be no need for security of any type.

There are plenty of people that ace tests on a regular basis. I would suggest you don't let it go to your head, but that happened way too long ago to be corrected now.
« Last Edit: Jun 08, 2009, 02:31 by RDTroja »
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Re: Integrity
« Reply #36 on: Jun 08, 2009, 01:59 »
I'm reminded of an axiom that I heard somewhere: "Locks are there to keep out the honest people."
It struck me as sadly true.  A thief will have no more compunction against destroying a lock than he will over taking what is locked up.  Most people can find a way past any lock if they try hard enough or think it over well.
One of the first things the Company Commander told us at boot camp was that the sailor who leaves his money out is as much to blame for its theft as the sailor who steals it.  I lock my doors even though I trust my neighbors.
Humans are fallible creatures, and those who believe they aren't susceptible to temptation are only fooling themselves.  If you leave an exam on a table, or your wallet on your bunk, you are creating an opportunity that would not otherwise exist.  This is why there are rules against doing that.  If you break that rule, you are at least partly responsible for the compromised test or stolen money.
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co60slr

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #37 on: Jun 11, 2009, 05:59 »
+1. In my short commercial career, I have yet to see integrity as an issue out here. I am not saying there aren't integrity issues, just that I haven't seen them yet. In contrast, someone's integrity was always in question everywhere I went in the Navy. Interesting, thanks for pointing that out Mike.

Ditto.  Separately, and at the risk of overanalyzing the term, I think someone with Intigrity wouldn't want to cheat on an exam and perhaps wouldn't even notice an exam left out.  Someone without Integrity has varying skills of risk management and "slyness".   "What's the benefit of cheating, that's the risk of getting caught, what are the consequences?"   If someone finds themselves in the middle of a mess, the problem for some is that they think the benefit of cheating outweighs the risk.

My favorite was the standard CO quote that came with a Good Conduct Medal..."Congratulations, you didn't get caught".  Nice values...and then some people wonder why HAMPTON happened?   No Good Conduct Medals for them.

Offline DDMurray

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #38 on: Jun 12, 2009, 09:45 »
+1. In my short commercial career, I have yet to see integrity as an issue out here. I am not saying there aren't integrity issues, just that I haven't seen them yet. In contrast, someone's integrity was always in question everywhere I went in the Navy. Interesting, thanks for pointing that out Mike.

Justin

"The Nuclear Regulatory Commission has issued a Confirmatory Order to the XXXXX nuclear power plant as part of a settlement agreement involving a contract security sergeant who falsified a form at the plant. The NRC Office of Investigations concluded that the sergeant deliberately falsified an equipment inventory form, and caused XXXXX to be in apparent violation of NRC regulations. "

"During an NRC investigation conducted between February 20, 2008 and December 16, 2008, a violation of NRC requirements was identified. ……on January 25, 2008, a Chemistry Shift Supervisor deliberately entered false data into the Chemistry Department internal laboratory statistics database. Specifically, on January 24, 2008, the licensee employee failed to perform the required QA/QC standard check for the evening shift, and the following day entered false data into the database. This information was material to the NRC in that the substance of the information is used to determine compliance with the Technical Specifications. The Chemistry Shift Supervisor's deliberate entry of false data into the internal laboratory statistics database caused the licensee to be in violation of 10 CFR 50.9 (a).
This is a Severity Level IV violation. "

Derek
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Offline Already Gone

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #39 on: Jun 12, 2009, 10:40 »
Can integrity be trained into people?

Yes, but it most probably has to start with childhood.

People, as has been pointed out here above, will make choices based on the expected or perceived value attached to each choice.  If integrity has been instilled as something of value in one's mind, that will factor into the decision.

Of course, we all learned that if we steal that gum, we will get into trouble.  Or, did we?  Perhaps we learned that if we get caught stealing that gum we will be in trouble.  This leads into the value calculation:
Option 1 -- If I steal that gum, I'll have gum and not have to pay for it.
Option 2 -- If I get caught, I'll have to pay for it, and I'll be punished.
I handicap the odds of getting caught and decide whether it is a better value for me to take the gum or not.

Somewhere along the growing up process, we either learned on our own or were taught that there is another, intangible value to attach to one of the options.  So, the calculation evolves:
Option 1 -- If I steal that gum, I'll feel bad.
Option 2 -- If I don't steal that gum, I'll feel good.

Eventually, even this choice becomes emotionally stressful:
Option 1 -- If I think about stealing gum, I'll feel bad.
Option 2 -- If I avoid the moral dilemma over stealing, I will never have the anxiety that comes with that kind of choice.

In the end, integrity is something that you teach yourself, but your parents probably planted the seed.  If we saw Dad stealing cable TV service or submitting false insurance claims and feeling pretty good about it, we could be led to believe that getting over on the cable company or "getting your money's worth" from that big insurance company are repugnant, guilt-ridden activities that Dad simply rationalized away or that they are pretty cool ways to get what you want.  But if Dad never tried to pull of a "harmless" little caper like those, we  are never tempted to follow the same path of rationalization.

The moral of the story:  Your kids may or may not copy what you do, but they are watching you for clues about how to live.  If you show no value for integrity in your own life you cannot expect them to embrace it in theirs.
"To be content with little is hard; to be content with much, impossible." - Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach

JustinHEMI05

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #40 on: Jun 12, 2009, 11:11 »
"The Nuclear Regulatory Commission has issued a Confirmatory Order to the XXXXX nuclear power plant as part of a settlement agreement involving a contract security sergeant who falsified a form at the plant. The NRC Office of Investigations concluded that the sergeant deliberately falsified an equipment inventory form, and caused XXXXX to be in apparent violation of NRC regulations. "

"During an NRC investigation conducted between February 20, 2008 and December 16, 2008, a violation of NRC requirements was identified. ……on January 25, 2008, a Chemistry Shift Supervisor deliberately entered false data into the Chemistry Department internal laboratory statistics database. Specifically, on January 24, 2008, the licensee employee failed to perform the required QA/QC standard check for the evening shift, and the following day entered false data into the database. This information was material to the NRC in that the substance of the information is used to determine compliance with the Technical Specifications. The Chemistry Shift Supervisor's deliberate entry of false data into the internal laboratory statistics database caused the licensee to be in violation of 10 CFR 50.9 (a).
This is a Severity Level IV violation. "

Derek




Thanks for finding one. I still have yet to see it personally. Even the tech that tripped off one of our recirc pumps recently owned up to it. I was impressed.

Justin
« Last Edit: Jun 12, 2009, 11:16 by JustinHEMI »

drayer54

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #41 on: Jun 18, 2011, 12:16 »
Another bad headline in the Navy rag.....



This one was about the officers on the Memphis who were cheating on CTE's.

They used a long round about way to try and justify it because the tests were impossible and the officers felt the pressure to score higher because of their leadership positions.

Just thought I'd share.

drayer54

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #42 on: Jun 18, 2011, 05:59 »
you know, youd figure that after half our chiefs got canned that the rest of the fleet would realize its probably not a good idea to make cheating rings...
Well, it was far greater than half on our ship but I think it's probably tied to something else.

I agree with the idea of constantly training and re-teaching topics. It makes sense.
The integrity issues come in when people who are ORSE-minded come in and want these amazing CTE scores so they put these scores on the pedestal so people feel they must get these scores (usually under the threat of less liberty and a myriad of excess paperwork) and then people feel the pressure and lose the "I" word.

I am not justifying it, but I have seen this training thing go from "Can I get an Electrician to draw this thing from E4-04" (not making new accusations, only making a reference to the incidents of fall 2008) and then to Khaki over the shoulder watching your every movement.

Our old RO used to email us with the threats of no overnight liberty and dinq-hours or early liberty in port all of the time for low CTE scores and then MM3 new to the ship hazmat PO is finding ways to stay out in Dubai a few extra hours. You also have the FTN minded get me out of here folks who don't want the extra crap and don't care about the consequences.

But when the leadership in the wardroom who are supposed to be the example are doing it, it's reached a whole new level.

It's time for another Adm. Donald letter I guess. Also, if CO's are fired for this kind of thing, how many nuclear departments need integrity scandals before Adm. Donald's job comes into question?????

Clearly his steps to fix earlier problems are not working...
« Last Edit: Jun 18, 2011, 06:05 by Drayer »

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #43 on: Jun 18, 2011, 06:50 »
It's time for another Adm. Donald letter I guess. Also, if CO's are fired for this kind of thing, how many nuclear departments need integrity scandals before Adm. Donald's job comes into question?????

Clearly his steps to fix earlier problems are not working...

Two thoughts:

1. Would you really trust the current crop of "No Nub Left Behind, Insufficient ASW patrols near ChinaTM" sword polishers to "fix" the NAVSEA08 program in the correct direction?

2. If yes, then barring WW3 I would expect the cleanup to start no earlier than a year or so into Bldg. 65's decom, when there is finally a surplus of qualified bodies to take the place of those who should walk the plank for cheating/gone soft/Panda hugging/proto pump vs. filter/DEP waiver piñata parties etc.

Offline Gamecock

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #44 on: Jun 18, 2011, 09:02 »
Well, it was far greater than half on our ship but I think it's probably tied to something else.

I agree with the idea of constantly training and re-teaching topics. It makes sense.
The integrity issues come in when people who are ORSE-minded come in and want these amazing CTE scores so they put these scores on the pedestal so people feel they must get these scores (usually under the threat of less liberty and a myriad of excess paperwork) and then people feel the pressure and lose the "I" word.

I've always hated the CTE program.... [BH]
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Offline retired nuke

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #45 on: Jun 20, 2011, 09:10 »
MY Dad was very subtle about teaching this lesson;

Me - "Dad, look at that cool thingamajig!"

Dad - "Is it yours?"

Me - "No."

Dad - "You got money to buy it?"

Me - "No."

Dad - "Then keep your busy eyes and hands off of it and move on!"

I miss my Dad.

Sounds a lot like my dad...  ;)
Remember who you love. Remember what is sacred. Remember what is true.
Remember that you will die, and that this day is a gift. Remember how you wish to live, may the blessing of the Lord be with you

Offline retired nuke

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #46 on: Jun 20, 2011, 09:12 »
those who should walk the plank for cheating/gone soft/Panda hugging/proto pump vs. filter/DEP waiver piñata parties etc.

You can always count on HD for the warm, fuzzy, liberal secular humanist approach... ROFL
Remember who you love. Remember what is sacred. Remember what is true.
Remember that you will die, and that this day is a gift. Remember how you wish to live, may the blessing of the Lord be with you

Offline spekkio

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #47 on: Jun 29, 2011, 09:59 »
Quote
It's Saturday morning in port, 0640.  The EDO wants to get the primary sample done early in the morning and get it out of the way before duty section turnover at 0700.  So the ELT is in the lab, getting ready to head down to the primary sample sink.  The EDO orders the SRO (an EM1) to open the IX isolation valve.  The SRO says it's not necessary yet, and premature opening of the valve will unnecessarily cool down the plant.  The EDO orders the SRO to open the valve again.  The SRO says "You do it, sir."  The EDO, feeling particularly ballsy, walks over to the RPCP and defiantly turns the switch.
Ah, malicious compliance. At least it's not restricted to my boat.

No one gives a s**t about the extra degree or two you'd lose by opening the valve sooner. You should've just opened the valve as ordered instead of being difficult.

It's too bad the EDO didn't know better.
« Last Edit: Jun 29, 2011, 10:55 by Nuclear NASCAR »

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #48 on: Jun 29, 2011, 11:17 »
Ah, malicious compliance. At least it's not restricted to my boat.

No one gives a s**t about the extra degree or two you'd lose by opening the valve sooner. You should've just opened the valve as ordered instead of being difficult.

It's too bad the EDO didn't know better.

Ever heard of a BFPL curve? It's too bad the khaki(s) didn't know better.

Offline DDMurray

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #49 on: Jun 30, 2011, 04:39 »
The name of this thread is integrity, not stupidity.  SRO was stupid.  The EDO was stupid.  Both of them blew off basic watchstanding principles over arrogance.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
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Offline Higgs

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #50 on: Jun 30, 2011, 04:43 »
The name of this thread is integrity, not stupidity.  SRO was stupid.  The EDO was stupid.  Both of them blew off basic watchstanding principles over arrogance.

Agreed. The SRO should never have let him put his hand on the switch. The SRO doesn't get a free pass in this.
"How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic.” - Ted Nugent

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #51 on: Jun 30, 2011, 05:12 »
Agreed. The SRO should never have let him put his hand on the switch. The SRO doesn't get a free pass in this.
We don't know that he did. The old line to let the people who get paid more take the fall doesn't get you out of this one... I would hope anyways.

This sort of thing always seemed to hit everyone around it though and often times the results of who would be deemed at fault wouldn't exactly be logical anyways.


Offline Higgs

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #52 on: Jun 30, 2011, 08:43 »
We don't know that he did. The old line to let the people who get paid more take the fall doesn't get you out of this one... I would hope anyways.

This sort of thing always seemed to hit everyone around it though and often times the results of who would be deemed at fault wouldn't exactly be logical anyways.



Yeah I didn't mean that we know or don't know that he did, just that that was clearly his attitude. He was being a douche and thought that if he sat back and let the EDO do it, that he wouldn't be in trouble. I hope he was wrong.
« Last Edit: Jun 30, 2011, 08:44 by TheHiggs »
"How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic.” - Ted Nugent

Offline DDMurray

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #53 on: Jul 01, 2011, 04:58 »
Not knowing what really happened, I see several alternatives:
1.  SRO explains why they should wait to open the valve.  EDO disagrees, assuming no plant limits would be violated the SRO should carry out the order.  If he wouldn't, get him relieved.
2.  SRO explains why they should wait to open the valve.  EDO disagrees.  Call the EDPO.  Get his take.  EDO makes final call.
3.  SRO explains why they should wait to open the valve.  EDO disagrees.  SRO refuses for plant safety.  EDO calls EDPO or calls the ENG.  EDO makes the call.
4.  SRO explains why they should wait to open the valve.  EDO disagrees.  SRO refuses for plant safety.  EDO calls ENG.  EDO gets relieved. 

In all these cases, references should be reviewed including old logs to see how much lining up for sample cools down the plant.  In all these cases, the EDPO should also be consulted.  As EDMC I would (recommend) remove the SRO from watchstanding and insist to ENG/CO that same be done to EDO.  Both are a$$-clowns.  I would also use this opportunity to gather theory to practice data and train the crew.  I know I already have two volunteers to carry it out. ;)
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
T. Roosevelt

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #54 on: Jul 04, 2011, 12:34 »
Okay, here is my take o this particular situation.

The SRO was engaging the EDO in a contest of wills.  He was wrong to do it, because he showed no justification for refusing an order, other than his own opinion.  If he had offered a reason other than his opinion, he might have convinced the young officer to agree with him and change the order.

Here's the hook.  What is "un-necessary" cool down to the SRO is a matter of opinion, as long as the additional cooling of the RCS does not cause the plant to violate the BFPL curve or some other procedural limit.  If such a violation were the imminent result of opening the valve early, simply calling the EDO's attention to that fact would have been enough.  The RadCon Manual prohibits "un-necessary" cooldown, because it results in un-necessary radioactive waste from the addition of makeup water to maintain PZR level which will have to be discharged on the subsequent heat up.  If the added time with the valve open would have necessitated charging which would not have been needed otherwise, then this would have been a procedural violation. Again, this could have been pointed out to the EDO, who would most likely have agreed and rescinded the order.

There is nothing in this example which shows that either would have been the case or that the SRO was clear that one of the two would have been the case.  All we have here is a situation where the SRO refused an order without justification.  If he really had a reason to believe that opening the valve would result in a violation of any procedure, then allowing the EDO to open it would be dereliction of his duty.

In procedural matters, it is the duty of the SRO to advise and inform the EDO, whose decision is not subject to question at that point, and whose orders are to be obeyed.

In matters of judgment or opinion, the judgment of the officer takes precedence over the judgment of an enlisted watchstander.

So, either way, this SRO was wrong.  He should be DQ and perhaps written up.
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Re: Integrity
« Reply #55 on: Jul 04, 2011, 09:18 »
Not knowing what really happened, I see several alternatives:
1.  SRO explains why they should wait to open the valve.  EDO disagrees, assuming no plant limits would be violated the SRO should carry out the order.  If he wouldn't, get him relieved.
2.  SRO explains why they should wait to open the valve.  EDO disagrees.  Call the EDPO.  Get his take.  EDO makes final call.
3.  SRO explains why they should wait to open the valve.  EDO disagrees.  SRO refuses for plant safety.  EDO calls EDPO or calls the ENG.  EDO makes the call.
4.  SRO explains why they should wait to open the valve.  EDO disagrees.  SRO refuses for plant safety.  EDO calls ENG.  EDO gets relieved.  

In all these cases, references should be reviewed including old logs to see how much lining up for sample cools down the plant.  In all these cases, the EDPO should also be consulted.  As EDMC I would (recommend) remove the SRO from watchstanding and insist to ENG/CO that same be done to EDO.  Both are a$$-clowns.  I would also use this opportunity to gather theory to practice data and train the crew.  I know I already have two volunteers to carry it out. ;)
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Quote
Ever heard of a BFPL curve? It's too bad the khaki(s) didn't know better.
I'm not trying to start a khaki vs. blue shirt war here. This is full retard on both parties, and a huge failure of leadership on the EDO's part. I don't know how experienced/nuke savvy the EDO was, but he should've known better than to touch the RPCP. However, the SRO should be using his experience to help the duty section get through the day with no mishaps, rather than using it to to try to prove he's smarter than watch officers.

FWIW, I have heard of BFPL. Given our normal S/D bands, I find it hard to believe that opening CP-Q 5-10 min earlier would've put you in violation of the curve, especially at 6-7am on a Saturday with the Engineer at home and probably asleep. I find it equally hard to believe that you were anywhere close to violating CDR limits.
« Last Edit: Jul 04, 2011, 09:28 by spekkio »

Offline Higgs

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #56 on: Jul 04, 2011, 09:27 »
I think we all agree, they were both wrong.

My issue is with Blue Shirts like this that think they are totally innocent in this sort of thing. It is an attitude that needs to be crushed. I have a feeling the attitude is more pervasive today than it was even 5 years ago when I was in.
"How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic.” - Ted Nugent

Offline spekkio

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Re: Integrity
« Reply #57 on: Jul 04, 2011, 09:33 »
Yea, and unforunately the newly minted EOOW's don't get the training to deal with it until after the fact or later in their tour.

I had a newly qualified EOOW tell me that a senior ET1 told him that he refused to draw a S/G sample because he couldn't find the procedure for the extended purge (I wholeheartedly believe said ET1, a RT who has already gone through a deployment, knew exactly where the procedure was and decided to be difficult that day, as he has a history of such things). The EOOW then told me how he spent like 30 minutes proving the procedure to said ET1.

I asked him why he didn't have the offgoing guy relieve and have said watchstander report to EDMC for training. He said "oh, I never thought of that."

D'oh.

I'm sure that some other guys have stories of watch officers trying to prove how smart they are to their watchteams, too. When you're so "smart" that you feel like you need to prove it to your watchteam -- regardless of your uniform and rank -- then you're really the biggest dumbass on the boat.
« Last Edit: Jul 04, 2011, 09:51 by spekkio »

 


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