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Fermi2

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Great Training Week
« on: Jul 15, 2009, 09:57 »
Had a great training week, my guys got better as the week progressed, the classes were good and NavLiv4 did a pretty darn good job in his classroom presentation.

JustinHEMI05

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #1 on: Jul 16, 2009, 01:50 »
Congrats!

I had a good week as well as we ramp up towards our first simulator eval. I am finally feeling like I have clue as to whats going on around me, its a nice feeling.

Justin

mlslstephens

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #2 on: Jul 16, 2009, 07:07 »
Had a great training week, my guys got better as the week progressed, the classes were good and NavLiv4 did a pretty darn good job in his classroom presentation.

Mike,
Many thanks to your crew for helping me whittle down a large topic into something digestable.  Also, I appreciate the kind words. Making the jump from ILT to LOR was exciting, challenging and rewarding. 

I remember back just two years ago when I was contemplating leaving the Navy.  One of my concerns was not having the ability to work around people "like me".  I had always enjoyed the camaraderie in the Navy.  I can honestly say, that I'm glad that concern didn't keep me from making the decision to leave the Navy and enter the commercial world.  I am having a blast and the people are great. 

Fermi2

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #3 on: Jul 16, 2009, 08:22 »
Ah Justin, I never know what's going on, I just fake it well!

Mike

JustinHEMI05

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #4 on: Jul 16, 2009, 02:57 »
Ah Justin, I never know what's going on, I just fake it well!

Mike

LMAO well there is a little bit of that too. The other day during a full power ATWS, after I ran back and tripped the RCPs, I went over and tripped a RFP when level started creeping up. The instructor asked why I tripped it when I did, and I said "I feigned concern for level and tripped it."  :P

Mike (NavLiv type),

I am thrilled that you have integrated well into the commercial world and are enjoying your job! Sounds like you are doing well too!

Justin

thenuttyneutron

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #5 on: Jul 16, 2009, 07:36 »
Training is going great for me as well.  I am now finished with day 4 of my NRC Exam.  I did three drills this week and think that we did well on all of them.  I did have a surrogate for the last drill and he let me take all of the beans on his side of the panels.  For those that know what ICS is, we had two ICS failures and I picked both of them out.  One of them was not even on my side.  It was funny because I saw some wierd behavior coming from the Rx before my annunciator.  The surrogate looked at me when I noticed the issue and said one of the funniest things I have heard in the simulator.  "Ohh my god, I wonder what is going on!" was what he said to me when he saw me looking down the panels just before the alarm came in.  Thankgod he carried out the correct actions when I did the crew update.  The ICS H/A stations that needed to be placed in hand were on opposite sides of the panels.

Today we did some JPMs and some were some weird curve balls.  They were not hard, just very different from anything I have ever done before.  I am moving onward to Friday for the last JPMs and the written on Monday.
« Last Edit: Jul 16, 2009, 09:45 by The Nutty Neutron »

Offline xforcehunter

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #6 on: Jul 16, 2009, 08:58 »
This stuff is gettin me all excited!  I can't wait to start training!   ;D

thenuttyneutron

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #7 on: Jul 16, 2009, 09:54 »
LMAO well there is a little bit of that too. The other day during a full power ATWS, after I ran back and tripped the RCPs, I went over and tripped a RFP when level started creeping up. The instructor asked why I tripped it when I did, and I said "I feigned concern for level and tripped it."  :P

Mike (NavLiv type),

I am thrilled that you have integrated well into the commercial world and are enjoying your job! Sounds like you are doing well too!

Justin

I only know the B&W design, you have to fill me in on what a RFP is.  We do trip the RCP for a loss of SCM or certain NPSH areas of the PT plots.

JustinHEMI05

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #8 on: Jul 17, 2009, 02:10 »
Reactor feed pump.

I had my ass handed to me as CRS during a radiation event last night.  :D I guess that is why we are doing this.  ;D

Still blows my mind that we intentionally uncover fuel sometimes.  8)

Jusitn
« Last Edit: Jul 17, 2009, 02:11 by JustinHEMI »

thenuttyneutron

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #9 on: Jul 17, 2009, 05:40 »
Reactor feed pump.

I had my ass handed to me as CRS during a radiation event last night.  :D I guess that is why we are doing this.  ;D

Still blows my mind that we intentionally uncover fuel sometimes.  8)

Jusitn

Boilers are so weird.  My number one goal is to keep the core covered and the RCS subcooled without breaking the PTS of the pot.  If I meet the above criteria, I will keep the Rx safe.

If I need more reactivity to shut the Rx down, I add more boric acid.
« Last Edit: Jul 17, 2009, 05:47 by The Nutty Neutron »

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #10 on: Jul 17, 2009, 06:04 »
If I need more reactivity to shut the Rx down, I add more boric acid.

You can do that at a boiler as well .... ONCE !  :P

Offline tr

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #11 on: Jul 17, 2009, 05:28 »
Boilers are actually simple - the reactor emergency operating instruction could almost be worded as:

Is water level above the core?

if yes - don't change anything
if no - add more water (and there is a lot of water available to add)

Granted this is an oversimplification, but it's fundamentally a lot simpler than the PWR issues of when to change from cold side to hot/cold side injection, boron precipitation, which pumps can be running during which accident phase, is the break large enough that you don't need cooling from the steam generators, etc., etc., etc.


JustinHEMI05

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #12 on: Jul 18, 2009, 09:12 »
You can do that at a boiler as well .... ONCE !  :P

LMAO

Justin

JustinHEMI05

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #13 on: Jul 18, 2009, 09:14 »
Boilers are actually simple - the reactor emergency operating instruction could almost be worded as:

Is water level above the core?

if yes - don't change anything
if no - add more water (and there is a lot of water available to add)

Granted this is an oversimplification, but it's fundamentally a lot simpler than the PWR issues of when to change from cold side to hot/cold side injection, boron precipitation, which pumps can be running during which accident phase, is the break large enough that you don't need cooling from the steam generators, etc., etc., etc.



Except for when you have to lower level below the fuel to control power. ;) Yes, simple LOL

I agree with the above poster, BWRs are strange.  :P

Justin

JustinHEMI05

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #14 on: Jul 22, 2009, 03:55 »
Just got done spanking my first simulator eval! Good feeling!  8)

Justin

Fermi2

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #15 on: Jul 23, 2009, 11:29 »
Boilers are actually simple - the reactor emergency operating instruction could almost be worded as:

Is water level above the core?

if yes - don't change anything
if no - add more water (and there is a lot of water available to add)

Granted this is an oversimplification, but it's fundamentally a lot simpler than the PWR issues of when to change from cold side to hot/cold side injection, boron precipitation, which pumps can be running during which accident phase, is the break large enough that you don't need cooling from the steam generators, etc., etc., etc.



Question: Are you licensed on both types of reactors?

thenuttyneutron

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #16 on: Jul 24, 2009, 11:59 »
Broadzilla,

Of the two, which ones do you prefer?  The NRC examiner said something that I found funny.  He told me that the B&W Plant could be operated by a trained monkey if nothing goes wrong with it.  He said you need the best crew possible for when things do go wrong with it.  The tests were very heavy on ICS.

During my simulator exams they threw many ICS failures at us.  The way the procedures and ops expectations are laid out, there is a procedure with immediate actions for a few H/A stations if you don't know what is failed.  The ops expectations tell you to take manual control of something if it is not working right.  The problem you must figure out is where the failure is.  My second exam as the secondary guy, we had a FW temp go bad and I had to lock up all fw.  Later in the exam I had to reratio feedwater in manual when we tripped a bad RCP with 2 failed seals.  I somehow did it perfectly on the License Exam.  I kept delta Tc less than 1 degree and only dropped Tave by 2 degrees.  I have had plenty of practice before and was ok at it.  I just happened to do it best on the exam :)

The last exam had us going on a wild ride as well.  I was on the primary side.  We had a NI fail high just as I cleared low level limits and I had to lock up the rods and RX demand.  The FW was left alone (had a surrogate on that drill).  The FW minimum flow lines opened up and were kicking our butts.  There were huge swings in generated MW and FW flows because of those valves.  They did die with each swing so we stopped and let it settle out.  The spray opened 3 times that drill in auto and I thanked god that they did not fail it open.  That was one wild ride!

I am told that the Westinghouse designs are more stable and not as much fun :)
« Last Edit: Jul 24, 2009, 12:00 by The Nutty Neutron »

JustinHEMI05

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #17 on: Jul 24, 2009, 12:35 »
Ah, ya. It sounds like BWR is easier LMAO.  8) :P But its all just a matter of perspective, I'm sure.  ;D

Justin
« Last Edit: Jul 24, 2009, 12:36 by JustinHEMI »

Fermi2

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #18 on: Jul 24, 2009, 01:12 »
I like them both but for someone who isn't Cross licensed I find it hard to believe they can make any judgment as to the difficulty of the EOPs because it's plain false.
IN a BWR you're in ALL the EOPs the minute you enter the first, on one hand they're easier because they're less restrictive, on the other hand whoever says they are easy has not been threough an ATWS with MSIVs shut. In a BWR the SRO has to prioritize which EOP is the correct one to be in and depending on the direction of the transient that priority may change. BWR EOPs move quicker and rely a lot more on Operator input and action.
Westinghouse PWR EOPs are rigid and AND you're only in one at a time. In fact the first EOP you enter is mostly a diagnostic which tells you where to go, then you leave it for that procedure. If conditions change the new procedure will tell you where to go. So in reality they are not that difficult, the procedure prioritizes for you and tells you what you need to keep an eye on. A BWR doesn't give you that, you have to watch everything.

To be quite honest if one wants to say it BWR EOPs come down to keeping the core covered with water (Not true in all cases, an ATWS by the way) then PWR EOPs come down to keeping the S/Gs in their level bands because in 95% of the scenarios if you do that you're ok. Yes a SGTR can be a pain but in fact there are only 2 places that the SGTR EOP really moves and in general those places move less quickly then most places in a BWR EOP.

In answer to Nutty Neutron's question I like them both. They both have their good points and bad points. My biggest complaint is you cannot move a PWR as quickly as a BWR for normal shutdowns, also it sure was nice that when the Rods went in on a Trip that SD Margin was good to 68F!

Westinghouse plants have their moments of fun. Let's face it, a loss of a feedpump at 100% is quite the adventure no matter what type of plant. I know BW plants have a rougher ride due to OTSG, a much smaller water inventory, and a small Pzr zso I feel for you. On the other hand I'd love to have an ICS!

Mike

JustinHEMI05

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #19 on: Jul 24, 2009, 02:18 »
Well said Mike. In my limited experience thus far, I have to agree, ATWS with MSIVs shut is the worst thing I have experienced.  ;D

Justin

Fermi2

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #20 on: Jul 24, 2009, 04:58 »
Sorry for the Typos. Europe wore me out!

thenuttyneutron

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #21 on: Jul 24, 2009, 06:38 »
Westinghouse plants have their moments of fun. Let's face it, a loss of a feedpump at 100% is quite the adventure no matter what type of plant. I know BW plants have a rougher ride due to OTSG, a much smaller water inventory, and a small Pzr zso I feel for you. On the other hand I'd love to have an ICS!

Mike
I love ICS only when it works correctly.  Otherwise it is like riding an angry Bull. 

B&W are like hotrods.  They have many awsome features but like any tuned sports car, it will run bad with a bad sensor.  A 1 degree change in Tave is worth 5" in the PZR.  The OTSG is at about 170" with 50 degrees of superheat at 100% and each inch of water is worth only 40 gallon of water.  The B&W design can survive a loss of a MFP from 100 power if the primary guy gets on the PZR spray valve.  It will only open to 40% in auto.  You can open it 100% in manual.  The plant will run itself back at 20%/min to 55% power on a loss of 1 MFP as well.

Single failures like the one above can be a cake walk.  The real fun is when several come at you at once with ICS in manual.

M1Ark

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #22 on: Jul 27, 2009, 11:33 »
Boilers are actually simple - the reactor emergency operating instruction could almost be worded as:

Is water level above the core?

if yes - don't change anything
if no - add more water (and there is a lot of water available to add)

Granted this is an oversimplification, but it's fundamentally a lot simpler than the PWR issues of when to change from cold side to hot/cold side injection, boron precipitation, which pumps can be running during which accident phase, is the break large enough that you don't need cooling from the steam generators, etc., etc., etc.



Hmmmm.... I'll leave this one alone.

M1Ark

  • Guest
Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #23 on: Aug 14, 2009, 05:13 »
NuttyNeutron,

BWR is my choice by a slim margin.

Your NRC examiner is 100% right.  BWR is easier to operate during normal plant operations but can be a nightmare during instrumentation failures.  At two PWR's I've been licensed,  most operators struggle at reading electrical schematics.  BWR sailors however seem to have an I&C mind.  The good BWR SROs are diagnostic machines amidst chaos.  Going back to the monkey analogy.  A highly trained monkey could execute the EOPs of my current PWR.
« Last Edit: Aug 14, 2009, 05:15 by M1Ark »

Fermi2

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #24 on: Aug 14, 2009, 06:50 »
I agree, BWR's have so much instrumentration and individual safety system logics that from a maintenance aspect they are a bear to deal with. Just look at their TS sometime. I've noticed in the PWR world OPerators seem to like LOgic Prints more, in the BWR world they deal with Schematics, BWR procedures rely more on diagnostics than PWR Procedures so yeah most BWR Operators are diagnosing animals. The difference in EOPs is as follows, BWR EOPs are like being on an FBI Firing Range or Urban WArfare, PWR EOPs are like following roadmaps, I'm not saying it's easy, especially with equipment failures but I usually after AOP TRaining I can take a PWR SRO Trainee into the simulator and run an EOP drill and with some help they'll come out ok.
I couldn't begin to attempt that in a BWR. One key difference is BWR EOPs are so Operator Intensive, you have to get a lot of feedback from the Operators to determine your priorities, and much of how equipment is manipulated in the BWR realm is up to the Operators. So a BWR SRO has to prioritize the EOPs, know what the Operators are doing, and figure out what is coming up next. It is not laid out for you.

Mike

thenuttyneutron

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #25 on: Aug 14, 2009, 08:05 »
I wish I could go visit a BWR simulator and see these differences.  I would actually like to see some casualties on a BWR.

JustinHEMI05

  • Guest
Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #26 on: Aug 14, 2009, 08:38 »
Come on down! We are in there 4 nights a week.  :P

I have to update the worst thing I experienced so far. Yesterday, I experienced (as CRS) a fire in both the 2B and 2D RHR pump rooms while HPCI was running in CST to CST with a loss of one of my start up sources and a failure of 2 emergency buses. I was down to two core spray pumps for make up and 2 level indicators. :( But it was only worse at the time because of the 5 million alarms I had due to all the bus outages. In retrospect, and having now experienced it, it wasn't that bad. Just felt weird standing there waiting for level to get to -172 so I could blow down and inject because it took forever.

For me, there is still nothing like trying to maintain reactor level -195 to -172 during a full power ATWS with no turbine.  :P
« Last Edit: Aug 14, 2009, 08:40 by JustinHEMI »

Fermi2

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #27 on: Aug 14, 2009, 10:34 »
Nutty Neutron,

Wanna go up to Fermi and watch some simulator drills? I can get you a contact and help you get in to watch.

Mike

thenuttyneutron

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #28 on: Aug 15, 2009, 12:33 »
Mike,

Detroit is not too far away.  I could go check it out during a long off.


Fermi2

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #29 on: Aug 15, 2009, 12:48 »
Dave LOL! Sorry

Neutron, it's about 30 miles south of Detroit, in Newport about 22 miles north of Toledo.

Mike

M1Ark

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Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #30 on: Aug 15, 2009, 12:50 »


For me, there is still nothing like trying to maintain reactor level -195 to -172 during a full power ATWS with no turbine.  :P

Level 0 = -172
2/3 core height= =195

Just wondering.

Fermi2

  • Guest
Re: Great Training Week
« Reply #31 on: Aug 15, 2009, 12:55 »
Fermi's level indication actually made sensde since everything was referenced to TAF so anything above TAF was a positive number. I believe -172 is TAF and -195 is whatever the lowest number was at Fermi after a Terminate and Prevent.

Mike

 


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