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Author Topic: The new weekly work hours and how do they effect road techs?  (Read 24021 times)

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Offline pronukeroadtech

Palo Verde says they are doing a rolling 4-12 hour day schedule, 4 on and 1 off so your day off is different and your weekly pay changes. Is it different else where or has our work week OT been cut everywhere? Other work groups work 7-12's if they want. Why is it always the HP/Decon departments that get our hours cut?

Offline let-it-ride

I think the reason is because the other crafts are UNION Workers. The HP/RCT people have no clout!!  If HP's talk about holding out, they are gone and easily replaced by someone willing to do whatever they are told to have a job.
Remember the site coordinator that took a job as a Jr. HP??
Nothing will ever change. HP's/RCT's  will go to a job no matter what. They will take whatever is offered, no matter how it brings them down.
But HEY, Always remember, "Hide and Seek for a Grand a Week".   8)

Offline MeterSwangin

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The Rule will have widespread effect throughout the industry.  The rule was intended to force utiltities to become less dependent on contingent workers and overtime.  More hiring of house folks to force down OT and fatigue.

Less whining...look at the big picture.  If you have never been to college and have been making >$100K taking smears on OT you need to look around.  1/8 of the nation is unemployed...capable, well-educated people around the world are seeking work here.  The 6x12, per diem earning, 3-in-3-out frisker holder has seen his day.  Nukes are staffing up, growing their own, sharing resources, and deploying technology.  The future is here, and Bubba Breakroom is history.

Offline fueldryer

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I think the reason is because the other crafts are UNION Workers. The HP/RCT people have no clout!!  If HP's talk about holding out, they are gone and easily replaced by someone willing to do whatever they are told to have a job.
Remember the site coordinator that took a job as a Jr. HP??
Nothing will ever change. HP's/RCT's  will go to a job no matter what. They will take whatever is offered, no matter how it brings them down.
But HEY, Always remember, "Hide and Seek for a Grand a Week".   8)
Your a moron if you believe that BS!It has nothing to do with the friggin unions. Do your homework before you prove how much of an idiot you really are.
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Offline SloGlo

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Why is it always the HP/Decon departments that get our hours cut?
wit watt mutant 'n fueldryer sez bout it knot bean a union issue, it muss be utilities fingering de kin due wit out hpt types, huh?
quando omni flunkus moritati

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pappy

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Some utilities are saying the OT rule will only apply to E-plan qualified personnel, not supplemental/outage staff. Guess we will see when the outages actually start & they do not have people to staff them.....

Chimera

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That's ebonics??????

Dang!!  Who knew?

Offline MeterSwangin

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The rule is very specific.  For RP, "covered workers" are just the E-Plan onshift minimum staff.

Many are chosing to apply the rule more widely to avoid disparate treatment disputes. 

Bottom-line:  The long term impact will be a long-overdue transition away from heavy OT use.  Nuke plant operation will become routine, rigorous, quasi-military, less lucrative.

You know......a business.

Offline Already Gone

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That's ebonics??????

Dang!!  Who knew?

No.  It's Southwestern Pennsylvania Hillbilly.
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Offline Lorrie Henson

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For the past couple of outages, DC Cook has been working 5 on and 1 off.  Most weeks are 72 hrs,  but there is a week (for most) that is 60 hrs.

Offline fueldryer

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For the past couple of outages, DC Cook has been working 5 on and 1 off.  Most weeks are 72 hrs,  but there is a week (for most) that is 60 hrs.
The last several outages that I worked Cook, I worked 7-10's.I think I had 1 day off every outage, that's it. Of coarse I'm not an HP either.
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Offline Lorrie Henson

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I guess I should have clarified those DC Cook hours were for HPs... LOL   ;D
« Last Edit: Jul 21, 2009, 07:54 by Lorrie Henson »

Offline Benwah033

Based on what I have been told by Westinghouse (my current employer) about the new fatigue rule is that effective beginning in the Spring 2010 outages, it will be mandatory for all workers to have 1 day off per 7 day cycle on a rolling basis in addition to the 72-hour restriction already in place.  This specifically targeted at the 7-10 work week.

I have worked 7-10's on every outage that I have been on for (W), but  now were adding staff to allow 6-10's and a day off for everyone on the crew.  As it has been stated to me, this will apply to anyone and everyone: house, contractor, union, non-union, etc. etc. 

I have heard that some plants have implemented the rule early, possibly only selectively for certain groups, but my understanding is that in the Spring it will be that way for everyone working at every plant in the US.

Offline SloGlo

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No.  It's Southwestern Pennsylvania Hillbilly.
witch iz moor palatable, 'n taken sirriuslier dan bill'nhillery..... butt dats a different sub ject awl two gather. ;)

dis shortening of da ours hast bin going round since bee fore aye quit dune power plants.  'n dat iz moorin a cupla yeers.
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Offline HydroDave63

SloGlo - your opinions would be more palatable (and taken more seriously)  if you lost the propensity for ebonics.

3500 posts ago it was kinda cool, but.....

Offline MeterSwangin

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The rule is fully effective for all licensees 10/1/09.  Not next Spring.

Most have implemented on a trial basis this summer to shake out the software...called "Workforce."  This program runs behind the site's timekeeping program to flag approaching work hour rule violations.


Offline xobxdoc

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3500 posts ago it was kinda cool, but.....

Just don't type in all caps. Now THAT would be really offensive.

Offline Limited Quanity

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House techs doing 6-12's for first week and then 5-12's for the second week.  Repeat this 2 wk pay cycle for the duration of our outage.  Bartlett will be held to the same unless TVA wants to go through a grievance because there be a disparity in the hours worked.  Still out on the table about Bartlett working the 4-1 with the rotating off day.  It will be a nightmare to keep up with if you’re a lead tech for staffing.   I figure we wouldn't staff because of the Mass. unemployment rule and Tenn. being a low ball unemployment compensation state.  But this certainly will not help matters.
I used to be a lifeguard until some blue kid got me fired.

Offline Camella Black

Stop with the conspiracy theory already.  The new rules effect all plants, union and non-union.  Utilities, like us, are in the business to make money.  Utility CEO's do not sit around in smoke filled rooms devising ways to screw an HP Tech or a deconner out of a few bucks by limiting their hours.  The utilities make more money by having short and efficient outages.  It should be obvious that they could be more profitable without restrictions on hours we can work.  No sense in whining about it until you see how it actually impacts your bottom line.

SloGlo - your opinions would be more palatable (and taken more seriously)  if you lost the propensity for ebonics.

1. While they may not sit around devising ways to screw anyone on limiting hours; they do sit around and devise ways to save money and put the screws to people... qualifying for per diem has become a nightmare at various locations and some utilities have put out bulletins on how they can do away with nonresident workers and are actively investigating anyone who does draw per diem.

2. We are suppose to be adults and follow the forum rules which state that we should a) stay on topic and b) be respectful and tolerant of others... in other words... leave SloGlo alone please  :)

Offline MeterSwangin

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If you can afford 20 travelling perdiem earners or 25 locals on the same outage budget what would YOU do?

Go with the 20 travellers, paying extra to train out the wrongheadedness they bring from their last job?  Pay travel in and out for no work performed?  Invest in their learning and experience with no assurance they will ever come back?

Utilities go with the home team for good reason.  Not to "screw" anybody.

Soon everybody with either be home team ("House") or working WalMart waiting 25 years for new nuke to have its first refueling.

Offline UncaBuffalo

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I just found out something interesting.  NRC rule says 60 hours per week averaged over a 6 week period...but my utility is going to 54 hours per week over 6 weeks, to ensure they don't violate the NRC reg.

...and, yes, the rule will apply to contractors.
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Offline PWHoppe

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I just found out something interesting.  NRC rule says 60 hours per week averaged over a 6 week period...but my utility is going to 54 hours per week over 6 weeks, to ensure they don't violate the NRC reg.

...and, yes, the rule will apply to contractors.

Ok, as they say...not so much.

The new 10 CFR Part 26 rules apply to "covered" workers. Who are covered workers? They would be Operators, Security, Maintenance, HP, Chemistry, and Fire Brigade.

Now as for the limitations for HP's, they are only "covered" if they are performing Health Physics duties as a member of the on-site emergency organization minimum shift complement. Contract HP's are NOT covered workers. BTW Maintenance folks are covered only if they are working on SSC's (structures, system's, and components), that a risk-informed evaluation process has shown to be significant to public health and safety.

Some utilities are opting for keeping their shift technician rotations intact during outages thus eliminating the number of folks who are subject to both the working hour limitations AND the minimum days off that apply to covered workers. Other utilities are including ALL house techs that fill the role of shift technicians and therefore do run the risk of after an outage having someone run afoul of the working hour limitations since it is a rolling 6 week time frame.

The reason that some utilities are going to a 4 on 1 off 12 hour schedule is to compensate for the minimum days off required. For HP's working a 12 hour shift OUTAGE schedule they are required to get 3 days off in each successive (non-rolling) 15 day period. This BTWEonly applies to the first 60 days of an outage, then the on-line rules kick in. The working hours, again as applies to "covered" workers are:

16hrs in a 24 hr period
26hrs in a 48 hr period
72hrs in any 168 hr (7day) period

While I understand that there is a lot of confusion, and misinformation, rumors are the worst thing. The LAW does go into affect October 01, 2009, and no it has absolutely nothing to do with unions.

I think it will be interesting to see which union house types decide to grieve this, if the contract HP's work more hours. However, the way I look at it, is it any different when you have all sorts of different schedules for the various folks during an outage? ::)

I have been part of a Working Hour Limitations (WHL) project group setting up the rules and procedures here at my utility, so if you have specific questions, fire 'em up and I'll do my best to get you the straight scoop.
« Last Edit: Jul 26, 2009, 10:40 by PWHoppe »
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Offline MeterSwangin

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Hat off to PWHoppe for the most factual, accurate post on this subject in weeks.  Well done, sir.

Expanding of the impact to outage contract RPs, it will be sustantial.  Few plants are planning this fall to work contractors 6x12 while limiting house techs ("onshift ERO...")  Nobody wants the labor problems.  Contractors will find themselves similarly limited.

5 years from now none of it will matter.  The contact RP market will dry up except for deconners and specialty people.  Utilties will just perfect resource sharing.  No training, badging, supervision, diem/pay hassles.  Halfway there now.

remowil55

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Thanks PWHoppe, i was kinda wonderin when and how that was going to effect the contractor. I had heard so many rumors that i didn't know what on earth we was going to be working this fall. Thanks for your time and effort. Remo

Offline retired nuke

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Well written PW
I think you will find that many utilities will go to a schedule that will meet the work hour rule for all personnel - the 4-1 schedule looks plausible.
Contractors - you will seldom work more hours than the house guys. Get used to it - few utilities want to deal with the labor issues and morale issue that would present.
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Offline UncaBuffalo

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Ok, as they say...not so much.

The new 10 CFR Part 26 rules apply to "covered" workers. Who are covered workers? They would be Operators, Security, Maintenance, HP, Chemistry, and Fire Brigade.

Now as for the limitations for HP's, they are only "covered" if they are performing Health Physics duties as a member of the on-site emergency organization minimum shift complement. Contract HP's are NOT covered workers. BTW Maintenance folks are covered only if they are working on SSC's (structures, system's, and components), that a risk-informed evaluation process has shown to be significant to public health and safety.

Some utilities are opting for keeping their shift technician rotations intact during outages thus eliminating the number of folks who are subject to both the working hour limitations AND the minimum days off that apply to covered workers. Other utilities are including ALL house techs that fill the role of shift technicians and therefore do run the risk of after an outage having someone run afoul of the working hour limitations since it is a rolling 6 week time frame.

The reason that some utilities are going to a 4 on 1 off 12 hour schedule is to compensate for the minimum days off required. For HP's working a 12 hour shift OUTAGE schedule they are required to get 3 days off in each successive (non-rolling) 15 day period. This BTWEonly applies to the first 60 days of an outage, then the on-line rules kick in. The working hours, again as applies to "covered" workers are:

16hrs in a 24 hr period
26hrs in a 48 hr period
72hrs in any 168 hr (7day) period

While I understand that there is a lot of confusion, and misinformation, rumors are the worst thing. The LAW does go into affect October 01, 2009, and no it has absolutely nothing to do with unions.

I think it will be interesting to see which union house types decide to grieve this, if the contract HP's work more hours. However, the way I look at it, is it any different when you have all sorts of different schedules for the various folks during an outage? ::)

I have been part of a Working Hour Limitations (WHL) project group setting up the rules and procedures here at my utility, so if you have specific questions, fire 'em up and I'll do my best to get you the straight scoop.

I am in I&C right now, so was looking at it from that angle.

Most I&C workers (contractor or house) will be doing work on safety-related systems, so the new fatigue rules will apply.
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Offline jjack50

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There are two other definitions of "covered worker" that may apply to RP Techs:

(a) Operating or on-site directing the operation of systems and components that a risk informed
evaluation process has shown to be significant to public health and safety.

(b) Performing maintenance or on-site directing of the maintenance of structures,
systems, and components (SSCs) that a risk-informed evaluation process has shown
to be significant to public health and safety.

This definition may apply to house, supplemental, or contract RP techs depending on specific assignment. It depends on what a company decides 'performing' means I think.  But basically, if you are working on or operating a system that can cause a release, you are a covered worker.

This is in addition to the 'e-plan assignment' rule.

Offline retired nuke

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There are two other definitions of "covered worker" that may apply to RP Techs:

(a) Operating or on-site directing the operation of systems and components that a risk informed
evaluation process has shown to be significant to public health and safety.

(b) Performing maintenance or on-site directing of the maintenance of structures,
systems, and components (SSCs) that a risk-informed evaluation process has shown
to be significant to public health and safety.

This definition may apply to house, supplemental, or contract RP techs depending on specific assignment. It depends on what a company decides 'performing' means I think.  But basically, if you are working on or operating a system that can cause a release, you are a covered worker.

This is in addition to the 'e-plan assignment' rule.

Good info Darth Penguin.... ;)
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Offline PWHoppe

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There are two other definitions of "covered worker" that may apply to RP Techs:

(a) Operating or on-site directing the operation of systems and components that a risk informed
evaluation process has shown to be significant to public health and safety.

(b) Performing maintenance or on-site directing of the maintenance of structures,
systems, and components (SSCs) that a risk-informed evaluation process has shown
to be significant to public health and safety.

This definition may apply to house, supplemental, or contract RP techs depending on specific assignment. It depends on what a company decides 'performing' means I think.  But basically, if you are working on or operating a system that can cause a release, you are a covered worker.

This is in addition to the 'e-plan assignment' rule.

Interesting thought, but I'm not sure how that will be interpreted by the different utilities. Uncabuff, you will most definitely be a covered worker as will contract I&C folks, as for the HP's....I'm not sure that a statement such as any system that can cause a release makes you a covered worker. The key words in all of that are "operating" and "working" on.

NEI 06-11 (rev 1) says the following in their definitions:

Maintenance means, the following onsite maintenance activities: Modification, surveillance, post-maintenance testing, and corrective and preventive maintenance of SSCs that a risk-informed evaluation process has shown to be significant to public health and safety

Risk informed evaluation process means an evaluation based on a probabilistic risk analyses approach such as the Maintenance Rule (50.65(a)(4)) or other similar process.

Given that I guess each utility will have to decide what that means. ::) Whatever the outcome, it's gonna be interesting for the next couple of years.
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ddan2

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Just a follow up and to bump this topic again

I am starting work with DZ Atlantic @ duke catawba

they are implimenting the new fatigue rules for the Nov outage  72 hrs 6 12's  different crafts / crews have different days off

There was some good info on the prev post guys need to take note of

During training they heavily emphised ratting out anyone looking like they are tired!

Content1

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The Rule will have widespread effect throughout the industry.  The rule was intended to force utiltities to become less dependent on contingent workers and overtime.  More hiring of house folks to force down OT and fatigue.

Less whining...look at the big picture.  If you have never been to college and have been making >$100K taking smears on OT you need to look around.  1/8 of the nation is unemployed...capable, well-educated people around the world are seeking work here.  The 6x12, per diem earning, 3-in-3-out frisker holder has seen his day.  Nukes are staffing up, growing their own, sharing resources, and deploying technology.  The future is here, and Bubba Breakroom is history.

I would like to know any plants where you can be a "Bubba breakroom" or 3in 3 out frisker holder. . . (give specific examples)or why we should we be thankful with 1/8th of the nation out of work and we are not.   How many that are out of work doing jobs that are not needed has no impact on us.   An attorney laid off from a law firm won't apply for a jr. tech, no matter how desparate he/she is.  The companies are already milking the recession excuse to the max and what happens?   People don't show up as the last outage season demonstrated.  In spite of Obama and the democrats socialist agenda, good old capitalism still sets the prices in our industry.   Let them try to pay us minimum wage and see who shows up, or the qualifty of the remaining workers.  Whine all you want if it works for you, the squeaky wheel gets the oil, you must speak up enough to get the ear of those who make decisions on trying to screw us.   "Maybe if the hard left keeps trying to shove things down our throats the "Don't tread on me" flag may make a comeback, and we will all start squeaking louder and in organized fashion.

Offline Marlin

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Gentlemen you are headed for PolySci if you keep this up. If that is your intent let me know and I will send it there now.

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what was all that about above wow. will I tell you who I voted for if you ask. but as for that I am working 72 hours a week, and spend a lot of time in the can looking at things it still gets done. keep up the good work at your job.

remowil55

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Just finish the outage at Wolf Creek, and we were working 4 on 1 off. The reason, that is what the house techs were working. Until we hit critical path then at the stroke of a pen it was 14 days straight, then back to 4 on 1 off.

Offline B.PRESGROVE

Ya know after reading all this stuff about shedules it all really boils down to the stroke of a pen.  Think about it, all someone has to do is say we need x stuff done and in this time frame so make it happen.  They can make up work hour rules all day long, but when the stuff hits the fan the schedule is at the whim of the work.  Ive worked so many different schedules and each one of them has been changed to fit the needs of the work.


Offline SloGlo

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Ya know after reading all this stuff about shedules it all really boils down to the stroke of a pen.  Think about it, all someone has to do is say we need x stuff done and in this time frame so make it happen.  They can make up work hour rules all day long, but when the stuff hits the fan the schedule is at the whim of the work.  Ive worked so many different schedules and each one of them has been changed to fit the needs of the work.


dollars drive da dew date, sheet spews schedules.  ;)
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