Fusion vs Fission

[HydroDave63]

We better not give up fusion.  We have given up our space program, let the accelerator go to Europe, what is left of any technological innovation here?  

Why, mandatory apple slices instead of fries in the Happy Meal , we have most of the world's social networking sites and Snooki got a neck brace last episode. What could be better, I ask you!?!

On-topic: Personally I'm glad the Euros built the Completely Erroneous Ridiculous Numbers (CERN) project. Let them waste tens of billions on a gizmo while they keep making WAGs about what they even look for: "From previous work, the Higgs boson was thought to have a mass somewhere between 114 and 185GeV (gigaelectronvolts) – one GeV is roughly equivalent to the mass of a proton, a subatomic particle found in atomic nuclei. The Atlas team reported a Higgs-like bump in their data between 120 and 140GeV. In a later session, the CMS group announced two bumps in the same region."  So, rather than the good old days when chumps like Fermi , Lawrence and Einstein had to have the math that worked on positron energies, neutron thermalization etc. BEFORE they cut metal, vs. these Gen Y wannabes that want to build it, run to for a year, and then declare success. It's like me nailing a big ol sheet of paper in the backyard, shooting it a box of .22s , find a clump of coincidental holes, circling it with a Sharpie, and awarding myself the Olympic Gold Medal in Triathalon!

If you want fusion, then look at the SPAWAR LENR experiments. Lightning giving off positron annhilation gammas, without a fancy accelerator or 192 lasers. We were closer to fusion with the Farnsworth Fusor, than with the Tokamak. Meanwhile, we spend billions supporting the orbiting treehouse Irrelevant Soviet Subsidy (ISS), and SPAWAR lives on table scraps. That's the outrage!

[Gamma Glue]

Wow. So much hate and sarcasm.... I'm overloaded.

I thought the purpose of CERN was to find the HIGGS boson that theory and math already proved should be there. If they don't find it then it's back to the drawing board since the higgs boson is supposed to be the particle that determines the mass of other particles.
What I liked about the ISS was that the US bought a $1 million toilet from Russia to use on the space station... kinda defeats the purpose of international ownership and sharing of technologies if you ask me. I say they spend the money on Bigelow Aerospace and their private space stations. (They already have two unmanned ones in orbit for testing)
http://bigelowaerospace.com/
They use old forgotten NASA technology, that works better and is cheaper to make.

We were closer to fusion with the Farnsworth Fusor, than with the Tokamak.

Since the WB type reactors from EMC2 are based on the Farnsworth Fusor, I would have to agree.

[Higgs]

As my username implies, I am very much interested in the particle world, and I was saddened when Clinton killed the super conducting super collider and I am saddened that NASA is pretty much defunct. I agree, we should be pursuing new technologies and pushing human understanding of the universe to the edge.

America has chosen to take the path of entitlement, laziness and thoughtlessness. We have decided to leave it to other to innovate.

Sad.

Justin

[Starkist]

We better not give up fusion.  We have given up our space program, let the accelerator go to Europe, what is left of any technological innovation here? 

Unfortunately, "US of Americans" (sic) are more interested in ipads and angry birds then nuclear power. Hopefully we can turn our economy to developing worthwhile technology instead of ways to make us fatter and lazier....

[Gamma Glue]

Higgs field video.

[Content1]

Thank for the video.  If we find these particles, is there a way to harness this knowledge to do things we cannot do now?

[Content1]

Unfortunately, "US of Americans" (sic) are more interested in ipads and angry birds then nuclear power. Hopefully we can turn our economy to developing worthwhile technology instead of ways to make us fatter and lazier....

     I hope you are speaking for yourself.  There are plenty of American still doing things, striving to do better, sharing knowledge and creating new things.  We just have a government that rewards the people you described above.  We can always come back to our senses and run this country life our forefathers did.  When we as a nation go bankrupt, what rises out of the chaos will be the hard workers bringing us back to our place in the world.

[Starkist]

     I hope you are speaking for yourself.  There are plenty of American still doing things, striving to do better, sharing knowledge and creating new things.  We just have a government that rewards the people you described above.  We can always come back to our senses and run this country life our forefathers did.  When we as a nation go bankrupt, what rises out of the chaos will be the hard workers bringing us back to our place in the world.

Uh no. We are in the Ipod, facebook, and Youtube generation. We drop billions a year into social networking, if nuclear fusion research had a quarter of the funding those things did, Im sure we'd have reactors by now. You have a GM account, start a polysci thread. This is a fusion chat, not politics anyway.

Thank for the video.  If we find these particles, is there a way to harness this knowledge to do things we cannot do now?

Proof of theoretical concepts? Um... yes?



relax cochise...

[HydroDave63]

Higgs field video.

Higgs bosons: the cosmic packing peanuts that are wedged between James Clerk Maxwell's "luminiferous corpuscles of ether".

and for you Michelson-Morley fans out there....

"The special theory of relativity owes its origins to Maxwell's equations of the electromagnetic field."

    * Albert Einstein, as quoted in New Scientist, Vol. 130 (1991), p. 49

[thenuttyneutron]

Higgs bosons: the cosmic packing peanuts that are wedged between James Clerk Maxwell's "luminiferous corpuscles of ether".

and for you Michelson-Morley fans out there....

"The special theory of relativity owes its origins to Maxwell's equations of the electromagnetic field."

    * Albert Einstein, as quoted in New Scientist, Vol. 130 (1991), p. 49

The physics allusion of the periodic table

The math is beyond me (maybe I could have understood it before the knowledge decayed away), but it does fit with the particles that we have seen in high energy experiments.  We just have not seen them all.  

Mendeleev came up with the periodic table of elements and it explained the chemical nature of the elements.  He even predicted elemental properties of stuff that had not even been discovered yet.  Probe deeper and you get the chart of the nuclides which explains the nuclear properties of the many different isotopes.  Probe even deeper and you may get the "An Exceptional Theory of Everything".  I want this theory tested some more to see if it can hold up to some rigorous experiments.

I would also rank Maxwell up at the top of my list of greatest scientists ever.  Maxwell, Faraday, Fermi and Tesla would all rank above Einstein IMHO.  Maxwell indirectly gave me my job.  Maxwell had a theory that was debunked and that will never diminish his other scientific work.

[Gamma Glue]

Thank for the video.  If we find these particles, is there a way to harness this knowledge to do things we cannot do now?

They could also find a Higgs Singlet in their search for the Boson. Read about it http://news.discovery.com/space/could-higgs-go-back-in-time-kill-its-grandfather-110316.html. Finding the Higgs boson will prove current theories and lead us to understanding more about the world around us. Not sure what everyday use it will be...

Back on topic of Fusion vs Fission, I've read some about a traveling wave reactor. Is that a worth while idea?

[Starkist]

They could also find a Higgs Singlet in their search for the Boson. Read about it http://news.discovery.com/space/could-higgs-go-back-in-time-kill-its-grandfather-110316.html. Finding the Higgs boson will prove current theories and lead us to understanding more about the world around us. Not sure what everyday use it will be...

Back on topic of Fusion vs Fission, I've read some about a traveling wave reactor. Is that a worth while idea?

is that the reactor bill gates is funding?

[RDTroja]

They could also find a Higgs Singlet in their search for the Boson. Read about it http://news.discovery.com/space/could-higgs-go-back-in-time-kill-its-grandfather-110316.html. Finding the Higgs boson will prove current theories and lead us to understanding more about the world around us. Not sure what everyday use it will be...

Back on topic of Fusion vs Fission, I've read some about a traveling wave reactor. Is that a worth while idea?

Impossible... George Harrison and Roy Orbison are both dead. Oh... wait... that was the Traveling Wilburys... never mind.

[Gamma Glue]

is that the reactor bill gates is funding?

Yes.

[Content1]

Fusion is in kind a a plateau.  When you start to collapse the sample the lasers get out of focus as the target is compressed and the reaction is not as efficient.  We need a way to move them in as the sample is compressed.   At higher laser powers to get the higher yields, the optics imperfection slowly destroy the optics preventing the high yield.  We have come far, but it seems we have far to go.

[GLW]

Fusion is in kind a a plateau.....

Has been,....

For pret' near 60 years,...

Ah well,...

[HydroDave63]

Fusion is in kind a a plateau.  When you start to collapse the sample the lasers get out of focus as the target is compressed and the reaction is not as efficient.  We need a way to move them in as the sample is compressed.   At higher laser powers to get the higher yields, the optics imperfection slowly destroy the optics preventing the high yield.  We have come far, but it seems we have far to go.

When using an incorrect process, that is usually the result. Good scientists would back up and rework the theory before the next experiments. Alchemists, political hack pseudo-scientists (such as  Trofim Lysenko) and snake-oil salesmen would just keep adding whistles and bells.

And whatever happened to the Fusion Happy Dance of 2010??? :

Like in the movie, "Evan Almighty" when we are successful this year I will do the "Dance" and dedicate it to the naysayers like yourself.   We are so close and I am there, you are not to know or base an opinion.  I suppose you think the Moon Landing were done in a studio too.

[Rennhack]

Fusion is in kind a a plateau.  ....  We have come far, but it seems we have far to go.

Um...  We told you so.

[thenukeman]

Let's Defund Fusion Now!!! Make Matter -Anti Matter reactors!!!!

 It is time to go for real power!! If I remember right, a piece of U235  that is eqivalent in size to a piece of coal has about 3 million times its power, fusion material, about 12 million times and Anti-matter is about 1.2 billion times.  


Time to go for the gold!! 1.2 billion times power and little waste.   Shut down the fusion, wind, solar, research and go antimatter.  Be like going to  the moon have it  done end of this decade.   Beginning of the 60's Kennedy  set the moon as a goal and we acheived it. Real energy independence would be antimatter.

[Content1]

Um...  We told you so.

I have invested a lot of time into fusion.  I will be disappointed if it ultimately fails not because it is a job to me.  We know it works on the Sun.  Making a working piece of the Sun is not so easy.  We should all hope it works someday, we can't build more nukes, Democrats want to shutdown coal, and oil is out the roof in price, solar has failed like the 1/2 billion spent on that "green energy" company that went bankrupt, wind kills migrating bird and doesn't blow enough to work without massive government subsidies, and it takes more energy to produce the ethanol from corn then we derive from its use.   Fusion we can destroy the Hydrogen to make helium that will have little impact on the Earth.  Helium will float away.  We have 6.5 billion on the Earth and growing.  We are destined for tragedy of starvation and lack of water unless we can achieve a balance somehow.

[thenukeman]

Karma to you Content for coming to reality on Fusion and the difficulties in sustaining it.  I hope like you that it will come to reality soon. Right now it does not seem like a reality in the near future.

[thenuttyneutron]

I have invested a lot of time into fusion.  I will be disappointed if it ultimately fails not because it is a job to me.  We know it works on the Sun.  Making a working piece of the Sun is not so easy.  We should all hope it works someday, we can't build more nukes, Democrats want to shutdown coal, and oil is out the roof in price, solar has failed like the 1/2 billion spent on that "green energy" company that went bankrupt, wind kills migrating bird and doesn't blow enough to work without massive government subsidies, and it takes more energy to produce the ethanol from corn then we derive from its use.   Fusion we can destroy the Hydrogen to make helium that will have little impact on the Earth.  Helium will float away.  We have 6.5 billion on the Earth and growing.  We are destined for tragedy of starvation and lack of water unless we can achieve a balance somehow.

Using the proven technology of fission and breeder reactor technology using more advanced fuel cycles, we could buy time to allow a better technology to replace it. 

Maybe on day we will have fusion.  We need energy now if we want to keep our progress going and I see nothing better than fission with today's technology.  I just want to move past Light Water Reactors and go with safer designs.

[Marlin]

The Brits seem to think we are on the right track with laser compression.

The UK has formally joined forces with a US laser lab in a bid to develop clean energy from nuclear fusion.

Unlike fission plants, the process uses lasers to compress atomic nuclei until they join, releasing energy.

The National Ignition Facility (Nif) in the US is drawing closer to producing a surplus of energy from the idea.

The UK company AWE and the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory have now joined with Nif to help make laser fusion a viable commercial energy source.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14842720

[HydroDave63]

The Brits seem to think we are on the right track with laser compression.

The UK has formally joined forces with a US laser lab in a bid to develop clean energy from nuclear fusion.

Unlike fission plants, the process uses lasers to compress atomic nuclei until they join, releasing energy.

The National Ignition Facility (Nif) in the US is drawing closer to producing a surplus of energy from the idea.

The UK company AWE and the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory have now joined with Nif to help make laser fusion a viable commercial energy source.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14842720

Since the Internet is forever....

I'll wager a steak dinner that the Brit AWE experiments fail to acheive break-even as well.

Sonofusion , as shown by RPI,can be demonstrated on a small scale using lower tech. The point being that even sonofusion uses lower input energy and exploits already existing EM phenomena on a small-scale. Another example is a lightning bolt, as cited earlier. There is no massive magnetic confinement, just a huge density of ionization and plasma that facilitates fusion during the ground-cloud charge motion. Trying to force fusion with higher and higher input energies won't work for the same reason that the first fissioning of uranium was at low-energy and using tabletop equipment  The best thermal neutron for U-235 doesnt come from CERN or a tokamak, but rather a pokey 0.025 eV neutron.

Tesla, Maxwell and Farnsworth together in a lab could have gotten us LENR fusion by now.  The key isn't the laser, it is truly understanding what an electron is or is not.

[Chimera]

We know it works on the Sun.  Making a working piece of the Sun is not so easy.

Actually, the scientists that study the sun keep getting amazed by what they are discovering.  This trail of "not knowing" goes all the way back to early neutrino experiments and is as new as the stars they've discovered that they claim shouldn't exist (see Astronomy picture of the day last week).  I'm of the personal opinion that, while they may have a working hypothesis for what the sun does, they really don't know enough yet to make fusion work here in a laboratory.