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Offline GLW

OIL 2 NUKE
« on: Jan 19, 2009, 09:12 »
......no one has really explained how nuke will ease our demand for oil.. (no one uses oil fired plants anymore).......

somebodies using oil fired plants;

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epates.html

been there, dun that,... the doormat to hell does not read "welcome", the doormat to hell reads "it's just business"

Offline Phurst

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Re: OIL 2 NUKE
« Reply #1 on: Jan 19, 2009, 01:04 »
somebodies using oil fired plants;

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epates.html

My understanding from the time I worked in an Oil Fired Plant was that the oil used was not satisfactory for use in production of gasoline. Why, I'm not sure but I asked and that was the answer I got. I haven't really researched it.
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alphadude

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Re: OIL 2 NUKE
« Reply #2 on: Jan 19, 2009, 04:34 »
let me temper that'

most oil fired plants stand idle (light fraction) ... some areas such as cities have to use oil because of the space restriction... but in general they are big polluters so they are not a fav. coal is da big brudda..  bunker c plants burn stuff i guess u could call it oil.. its the dregs. there is not much a shortage of that stuff.. its the lighter fractions with high BTU thats not used much anymore.
« Last Edit: Jan 19, 2009, 04:37 by alphadude »

Offline Already Gone

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Re: OIL 2 NUKE
« Reply #3 on: Feb 04, 2009, 06:29 »
In the process of refining crude oil, it is heated and separated into fractions.  The lightest is jet fuel, followed by naptha, diesel, kerosene, ...etc.  The goo at the bottom is called coke.

Basically they squeeze every usable fraction out of the oil by one means or another, using heat, catalytic cracking, alkylization, and a few other processes.  The products and byproducts are all sold of as fuel, LP Gas, paving material, even the CO2 in your Coca-Cola comes from this process.

Naturally, the most recognizable fractions of the crude oil are things like gasoline (naptha with octane added) heating oil, diesel, jet fuel, and plastic.  Basically all of it is worth something for something.  There is no part of the oil that is not sold - although some refineries refrain from certain processes because the product is not worth the danger of the process. 

The oil burned in many power plants is lower in value and purity than jet fuel, gasoline, or automotive diesel, but about the same grade as home heating oil or maybe a little lower.  The cheaper it gets, the dirtier it is.
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Offline TEX-INSP

Re: OIL 2 NUKE
« Reply #4 on: Oct 03, 2009, 01:45 »
Hello everyone. I have a few questions about the nuke outages. First off I'm going to an outage at Dominion Surry in VA as an Inspector (NDE/QC). I have been doing Inspection work for the past 6 yrs (mostly outages) but all of it was in the Oil Refining and Petro Chemical fields. Is there anyone out there that has worked outages in both of these fields that could give me a few tips on the nukes? Do's and Dont's of the nuke world? Anything helps. Thanks ahead of time.

thenuttyneutron

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Re: OIL 2 NUKE
« Reply #5 on: Oct 03, 2009, 08:03 »
Do not feed the Operators.  They are animals and will bite your hand off.

Just kidding.  The biggest thing in nukes is doing things 100% correct the first time.  Don't let time pressure get in the way of doing work 100% correctly the first time around.  You may be in a brief for 4 hours for a job that should only take one hour.  Get used to the hurry up and wait of the nuke world.  If you are uneasy or have questions about the job, STOP and ask questions!  Make sure you are on the correct component before doing work.  Make sure you keep the Control room informed of the work going on.

The last thing I can tell you is be nice to the operators and they will be able to help you with most questions that you have.  They will probably be the most knowledgeable when it comes to questions about the plant equipment and locations.  Ignore the signs around the ready area and feed them.  They like pizza, sodas, food that does no require a fork and sweet treats :)

Offline retired nuke

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Re: OIL 2 NUKE
« Reply #6 on: Oct 03, 2009, 10:47 »
Actually, you will be more involved with engineering and craft than Ops for most NDE/QC during an outage. The engineer and craft leads for whatever system you will be inspecting will probably be the ones that will get you where you need to go, show you the specs in the work package, and hopefully, double check to make sure you signed in the right place.
Ops will control release of the system for work - you will often come in after the work is in progress. Make sure you are aware of your lockout / tagout boundaries, make sure that the proper steps have been signed off, and do the correct inspection (PT/MT/VT, etc)

The radiological part will be handled by the Radiation Protection group. Pay attention to the information they give you regarding protective requirements and radiological conditions. If you have questions - ask them. Always know the low dose area for your job. Nobody likes having a job come in under the dose goal, and having it blown in inspection and PMT...

Relax, and enjoy it - do not be surprised at the difference in production level that is expected of you.

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Offline TEX-INSP

Re: OIL 2 NUKE
« Reply #7 on: Oct 03, 2009, 12:25 »
Sounds like the operators act about the same way as the Refinerys Ops. They are all good guys tho..most of the time  ;)
HouseDad whenever you say "do not be surprised at the difference in production level that is expected of you" what exactly due you mean by that?More or Less production? In the refinery's we work are butts of alot. I figured that the work environment would be a little more sensitive and require alot more steps to getting the job done. Thanks for the help guys.

Offline TEX-INSP

Re: OIL 2 NUKE
« Reply #8 on: Oct 03, 2009, 12:37 »
How much radiation do you pick up on an average day working an outage? Or what are the limits? Thats the one thing im gonna have to get use to.... Only people that really pick up radiation in the plants is people doing XRAY inspections. 

thenuttyneutron

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Re: OIL 2 NUKE
« Reply #9 on: Oct 03, 2009, 12:57 »
How much radiation do you pick up on an average day working an outage? Or what are the limits? Thats the one thing im gonna have to get use to.... Only people that really pick up radiation in the plants is people doing XRAY inspections. 

It all depends on what you are doing.  If you at a PWR, you may see lots of dose from hotspots in the pipe elbows of the reactor support systems due to the crude burst.  I have seen very high dose rates in areas that are normally low dose areas while at 100%.  This is why it is important to have RP techs doing good surveys. 

Just make sure you listen to the RP techs.  They can and will remove your rad worker access if you do not follow RP practices or say the wrong thing.  I have heard stories about licensed operators trying to get a job complete so we could begin the startup.  Had he gotten the Shift Manager involved, the RP tech would have been over ruled.  He instead blew off the RP techs and had his access to rad areas removed.  If you have the support of the Shift Manager, you will generally not get too much grief about collecting too much dose.

kp88

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Re: OIL 2 NUKE
« Reply #10 on: Oct 04, 2009, 12:59 »
How much radiation do you pick up on an average day working an outage? Or what are the limits? Thats the one thing im gonna have to get use to....
Limits are federal law, and no utility in the country is going to let you get near one.  Each plant has an administrative dose guideline that they don't particularly want you to get near to either.  A lot of jobs have a dose budget that is tracked, and not expected to be exceeded.  Everybody's pretty much on the same page here.  You, the utility, and the regulatory agencies don't want you getting radiation exposure just because nuclear plants have radioactive materials in them.  We had an outage once where it was "damn the radiation, full speed ahead", and we paid for it for several years.

Offline TEX-INSP

Re: OIL 2 NUKE
« Reply #11 on: Oct 04, 2009, 03:17 »
Well just hopefully im not glowing whenever I get done with the outage lol. Are the only systems used to monitor the radiation the guys that walk around doing surveys? Is there any kind of meter that you wear for continuous monitoring? We wear H2S (Hydrogen Sulfide) meters on our coveralls in the oil refinery's. Im sure I will get use to the radiation stuff...If I can work around carcinogenic chemicals , explosive hydrocarbons mixtures and all the other acids and corrosives in the refineries. Thanks for the help everyone.

ultimakf7

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Re: OIL 2 NUKE
« Reply #12 on: Oct 04, 2009, 08:30 »
yup, it's called dosimetry.  You wear a dosimeter (basically a tag they read radiation from (cumulative)), and a electronic dosimeter, which is a device that monitors the radiation you've received today, and alerts when you've gone over a preset value

withroaj

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Re: OIL 2 NUKE
« Reply #13 on: Oct 05, 2009, 04:58 »
Don't forget your Rad Away!



Ok, I'm sorry.  I thought it'd be funny.

Motown homey

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Re: OIL 2 NUKE
« Reply #14 on: Oct 05, 2009, 06:49 »
Don't forget your Rad Away!



Ok, I'm sorry.  I thought it'd be funny.

Yeah - It's pretty sorry, but it's also funny!

Back on topic - you will be monitored for radiation dose (exposure) at least a degree magnitude more that the H2S monitors actually cover you in a chemical plant.  The main difference is that you could die much more quickly from entering areas where hydrogen sulfide is greater than the limits than you ever would from entering an area where the radiation levels would put you over a limit.  
« Last Edit: Oct 05, 2009, 06:51 by Motown homey »

thenuttyneutron

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Re: OIL 2 NUKE
« Reply #15 on: Oct 05, 2009, 07:51 »
Yeah - It's pretty sorry, but it's also funny!

Back on topic - you will be monitored for radiation dose (exposure) at least a degree magnitude more that the H2S monitors actually cover you in a chemical plant.  The main difference is that you could die much more quickly from entering areas where hydrogen sulfide is greater than the limits than you ever would from entering an area where the radiation levels would put you over a limit.  

If my references found in comic books are correct, you get your super powers long before you would have to worry about dying.

kp88

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Re: OIL 2 NUKE
« Reply #16 on: Oct 06, 2009, 12:16 »
Is there any kind of meter that you wear for continuous monitoring? We wear H2S (Hydrogen Sulfide) meters on our coveralls in the oil refinery's.
For special occasions, you may even be wearing a dosimeter that is transmitting your radiation dose to a computer screen for someone, other than you, to keep an eye on your radiation exposure.

Offline TEX-INSP

Re: OIL 2 NUKE
« Reply #17 on: Oct 06, 2009, 09:59 »
Ha ha ha real funny comic there. Well thanks for all the help

Offline Adam Grundleger

Re: OIL 2 NUKE
« Reply #18 on: Oct 08, 2009, 09:10 »
If you're performing ISI NDE or welding NDE, make sure the ANII gets a heads-up so he/she can witness the exam.  The work package ought to have steps in it for notification and/or hold points. 

IPREGEN

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Re: OIL 2 NUKE
« Reply #19 on: Nov 02, 2009, 03:09 »
In the process of refining crude oil, it is heated and separated into fractions.  The lightest is jet fuel, followed by naptha, diesel, kerosene, ...etc.  The goo at the bottom is called coke.

Basically they squeeze every usable fraction out of the oil by one means or another, using heat, catalytic cracking, alkylization, and a few other processes.  The products and byproducts are all sold of as fuel, LP Gas, paving material, even the CO2 in your Coca-Cola comes from this process.

Naturally, the most recognizable fractions of the crude oil are things like gasoline (naptha with octane added) heating oil, diesel, jet fuel, and plastic.  Basically all of it is worth something for something.  There is no part of the oil that is not sold - although some refineries refrain from certain processes because the product is not worth the danger of the process. 

The oil burned in many power plants is lower in value and purity than jet fuel, gasoline, or automotive diesel, but about the same grade as home heating oil or maybe a little lower.  The cheaper it gets, the dirtier it is.
homework needs to be done here, wrong info is worse than no info.


Six classes
Fuel oil is classified into six classes, numbered 1 through 6, according to its boiling point, composition and purpose. The boiling point, ranging from 175 to 600 °C, and carbon chain length, 20 to 70 atoms, of the fuel increases with fuel oil number. Viscosity also increases with number, and the heaviest oil has to be heated to get it to flow. Price usually decreases as the fuel number increases.

No. 1 fuel oil, No. 2 fuel oil and No. 3 fuel oil are variously referred to as distillate fuel oils, diesel fuel oils, light fuel oils, gasoil or just distillate. For example, No. 2 fuel oil, No. 2 distillate and No. 2 diesel fuel oil are almost the same thing (diesel is different in that it also has a cetane number limit which describes the ignition quality of the fuel). Distillate fuel oils are distilled from crude oil.

Gas oil refers to the process of distillation. The oil is heated, becomes a gas and then condenses.

No. 1 is similar to kerosene and is the fraction that boils off right after gasoline.

No. 2 is the diesel that trucks and some cars run on, leading to the name "road diesel". It is the same thing as heating oil

No. 3 is a distillate fuel oil and is rarely used.

No. 4 fuel oil is usually a blend of distillate and residual fuel oils, such as No. 2 and 6; however, sometimes it is just a heavy distillate. No. 4 may be classified as diesel, distillate or residual fuel oil.

No. 5 fuel oil and No. 6 fuel oil are called residual fuel oils (RFO) or heavy fuel oils. As far more No. 6 than No. 5 is produced, the terms heavy fuel oil and residual fuel oil are sometimes used as for No. 6. They are what remains of the crude oil after gasoline and the distillate fuel oils are extracted through distillation. No. 5 fuel oil is a mixture of No. 6 (about 75-80%) with No. 2. No. 6 may also contain a small amount of No. 2 to get it to meet specifications.

Residual fuel oils are sometimes called light when they have been mixed with distillate fuel oil, while distillate fuel oils are called heavy when they have been mixed with residual fuel oil. Heavy gas oil, for example, is a distillate that contains residual fuel oil. The ready availability of very heavy grades of fuel oil is often due to the success of catalytic cracking of fuel to release more valuable fractions and leave heavy residue.

Bunker fuel
Bunker fuel is technically any type of fuel oil used aboard ships. It gets its name from the containers on ships and in ports that it is stored in; in the days of steam they were coal bunkers but now they are bunker-fuel tanks. The Australian Customs and the Australian Tax Office define a bunker fuel as the fuel that powers the engine of a ship or aircraft. Bunker A is No. 2 fuel oil, bunker B is No. 4 or No. 5 and bunker C is No. 6. Since No. 6 is the most common, "bunker fuel" is often used as a synonym for No. 6. No. 5 fuel oil is also called navy special fuel oil or just navy special, No. 6 or 5 are also called furnace fuel oil (FFO); the high viscosity requires heating, usually by a recirculated low pressure steam system, before the oil can be pumped from a bunker tank. In the context of shipping, the labeling of bunkers as previously described is rarely used in modern practice.

Offline TEX-INSP

Re: OIL 2 NUKE
« Reply #20 on: Nov 02, 2009, 09:50 »
One week down on my outage it's going pretty good...already have some lined up for next year

Offline RDTroja

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Re: OIL 2 NUKE
« Reply #21 on: Nov 03, 2009, 08:28 »
One week down on my outage it's going pretty good...already have some lined up for next year

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Offline Already Gone

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Re: OIL 2 NUKE
« Reply #22 on: Nov 03, 2009, 01:38 »
homework needs to be done here, wrong info is worse than no info.


Six classes
Fuel oil is classified into six classes, numbered 1 through 6, according to its boiling point, composition and purpose. The boiling point, ranging from 175 to 600 °C, and carbon chain length, 20 to 70 atoms, of the fuel increases with fuel oil number. Viscosity also increases with number, and the heaviest oil has to be heated to get it to flow. Price usually decreases as the fuel number increases.

No. 1 fuel oil, No. 2 fuel oil and No. 3 fuel oil are variously referred to as distillate fuel oils, diesel fuel oils, light fuel oils, gasoil or just distillate. For example, No. 2 fuel oil, No. 2 distillate and No. 2 diesel fuel oil are almost the same thing (diesel is different in that it also has a cetane number limit which describes the ignition quality of the fuel). Distillate fuel oils are distilled from crude oil.

Gas oil refers to the process of distillation. The oil is heated, becomes a gas and then condenses.

No. 1 is similar to kerosene and is the fraction that boils off right after gasoline.

No. 2 is the diesel that trucks and some cars run on, leading to the name "road diesel". It is the same thing as heating oil

No. 3 is a distillate fuel oil and is rarely used.

No. 4 fuel oil is usually a blend of distillate and residual fuel oils, such as No. 2 and 6; however, sometimes it is just a heavy distillate. No. 4 may be classified as diesel, distillate or residual fuel oil.

No. 5 fuel oil and No. 6 fuel oil are called residual fuel oils (RFO) or heavy fuel oils. As far more No. 6 than No. 5 is produced, the terms heavy fuel oil and residual fuel oil are sometimes used as for No. 6. They are what remains of the crude oil after gasoline and the distillate fuel oils are extracted through distillation. No. 5 fuel oil is a mixture of No. 6 (about 75-80%) with No. 2. No. 6 may also contain a small amount of No. 2 to get it to meet specifications.

Residual fuel oils are sometimes called light when they have been mixed with distillate fuel oil, while distillate fuel oils are called heavy when they have been mixed with residual fuel oil. Heavy gas oil, for example, is a distillate that contains residual fuel oil. The ready availability of very heavy grades of fuel oil is often due to the success of catalytic cracking of fuel to release more valuable fractions and leave heavy residue.

Bunker fuel
Bunker fuel is technically any type of fuel oil used aboard ships. It gets its name from the containers on ships and in ports that it is stored in; in the days of steam they were coal bunkers but now they are bunker-fuel tanks. The Australian Customs and the Australian Tax Office define a bunker fuel as the fuel that powers the engine of a ship or aircraft. Bunker A is No. 2 fuel oil, bunker B is No. 4 or No. 5 and bunker C is No. 6. Since No. 6 is the most common, "bunker fuel" is often used as a synonym for No. 6. No. 5 fuel oil is also called navy special fuel oil or just navy special, No. 6 or 5 are also called furnace fuel oil (FFO); the high viscosity requires heating, usually by a recirculated low pressure steam system, before the oil can be pumped from a bunker tank. In the context of shipping, the labeling of bunkers as previously described is rarely used in modern practice.


Wow! What was the point in sniping at me for giving simple information in answer to the notion that there is such a thing as worthless oil.  Perhaps too much homework on your part.  Do you really think that the Australian Customs and Tax Office definition of bunker fuel is even remotely necessary to this conversation?  The point is that fuel oil burned in a power plant is not some "reject" from the gasoline refining process, but rather it is a distinct product derived from essentially the same source.
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