More Cheating on Exams

[Neutron Whisperer]

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2009/11/navy_truman_112309w/

Thirteen sailors were punished in connection with a cheating incident on a nuclear propulsion test aboard the aircraft carrier Harry S. Truman in early May, according to a spokesman. This is the second cheating scandal involving a carrier in a year and the third to involve the nuclear-powered force since September 2007.

None of the sailors was ranked above E-6, and none was identified by the office of Naval Nuclear Propulsion.

All were punished with disciplinary or administrative action. Eight of the 13 sailors lost their nuclear Navy enlisted classifications and were kicked off the ship, said Lukas McMichael, a spokesman for Adm. Kirkland Donald, director of Naval Nuclear Propulsion. He said five sailors were permitted to stay aboard and keep their nuclear qualifications following captain’s mast.

McMichael did not detail the sailors’ involvement, but the event unfolded when a proctor caught two sailors with notes during a “continuous training examination,” also called a “level of knowledge” test.

After the incident, the roughly 300 remaining nuclear-qualified members of the ship’s reactor department retook the test.

[Bighouz107501]

this is already a topic under lost cause and has been known about for several months under that post

[HydroDave63]

do people really get kicked out easily? 

Sure hope so!

[rumrunner]

Ah, but for the good old days when no nucs got caught cheating.  They just got caught on drug tests, de-nuked, busted, and sent to the fabled fleet oiler in the Indian Ocean.  You know, the one painted white because of the extreme heat at the equator. 

[Neutron Whisperer]

the Navy has invested thousands upon thousands of dollars getting a nuke operator to the fleet who then makes him(her)self unavailable to return the investment by failing integrity,......

they don't make your life easy after you waste their two+ year investment,.....

they may not be able to use you, but they still own you,....

for years and years they own you,....

garbage must be collected, shipboard tanks reeking of human excrement must be cleaned, pipes reeking of rotted food must be purged, paint must be chipped off under blistering suns and in freezing winter,...

sound easy?!?!?!?!?

plus all the wonderful benefits of an other than honourable discharge for your efforts,....

(sic)

Not saying that doesn't happen, but just what you wouldn't want to happen also happens.  That is, some instructors from a couple years ago at ptype got denuked for integrity and were re-assigned to aid the base chaplain; spent their days playing golf.  The others got equally cushy jobs on site.  And since the process is so laborious, they received pro pay the whole time.

[baronbrady]

the Navy has invested thousands upon thousands of dollars getting a nuke operator to the fleet who then makes him(her)self unavailable to return the investment by failing integrity,......

they don't make your life easy after you waste their two+ year investment,.....

they may not be able to use you, but they still own you,....

I was in shock when I arrived at my carrier.  The CTE's were a joke.  If you failed, you were punished, and the exams weren't hard enough unless a set percentage of people failed.  Essentially, if you were new, you failed.  If you weren't buddy-buddy with the RT personnel, you might fail.  The program flew in the face of Integrity, with people walking into the exam room with pre-written answer sheets.  I approached our division's LCPO (An E-9) and asked him why this was okay.  His answer: "What am I supposed to do about it?"

[Golly Orby]

I was in shock when I arrived at my carrier.  The CTE's were a joke.  If you failed, you were punished, and the exams weren't hard enough unless a set percentage of people failed.  Essentially, if you were new, you failed.  If you weren't buddy-buddy with the RT personnel, you might fail.  The program flew in the face of Integrity, with people walking into the exam room with pre-written answer sheets.  I approached our division's LCPO (An E-9) and asked him why this was okay.  His answer: "What am I supposed to do about it?"

Is this a common issue, and is this limited to surface ships?

[baronbrady]

This is based on my experience, which came to an end in 2008.  At the time, cheating was the (well-known) norm.  I can only hope that the massive mast cases in recent years are enough to inspire change.

[Pirate Bob]

Is this a common issue, and is this limited to surface ships?

I would say that it's common, but I don't know how it is on other ships.  It happens on my (surface) ship...ALL the TIME.  My knee-jerk response was to continue on spouting about how the whole thing is horrible and needs to be revamped, but I have no clue how they would fix it so feel as if b*tching would be unproductive.

[Marlin]

Very sad   that anyone should accept such a thing. I know my experience is a bit dated but we had at least some pride in our knowledge of the reactor and secondary systems. Perhaps the talk I hear of NNPS being a pump instead of a filter are more true than I had hoped to believe.

[LT Dan]

I would say that it's common, but I don't know how it is on other ships.  It happens on my (surface) ship...ALL the TIME.  My knee-jerk response was to continue on spouting about how the whole thing is horrible and needs to be revamped, but I have no clue how they would fix it so feel as if b*tching would be unproductive.

Here is how you fix it....

CTEs will only be given at a pre-set time.  The only exception is for the duty section on watch at the pre-set time. 

All divisional CTEs administered by Division Officer or higher.  Any evidence of cheating is dealt with at Captains Mast.

All PPWO/PPWS CTEs administered by Assistant Reactor Officer or higher.  Any evidence of cheating is dealt with at Captains Mast, officers included.


RTA puts the fear of God into his staff....threatens to take to mast anyone leaking information about any upcoming exam.

[Preciousblue1965]

Here is how you fix it....

CTEs will only be given at a pre-set time.  The only exception is for the duty section on watch at the pre-set time. 

All divisional CTEs administered by Division Officer or higher.  Any evidence of cheating is dealt with at Captains Mast.

All PPWO/PPWS CTEs administered by Assistant Reactor Officer or higher.  Any evidence of cheating is dealt with at Captains Mast, officers included.


RTA puts the fear of God into his staff....threatens to take to mast anyone leaking information about any upcoming exam.

I would agree with the above recommendations, and add one little caveat to it.....

Results of the test should be CONSTANTLY used to tweak the exam difficulty of the exams.  If, in a 100% honest effort, > 40% fail the exam, the test should be looked at and possibly rewritten.  If no one fails, then it should be looked at and possibly rewritten.  Test results should not take away liberty or affect working hours negatively.  Positive test results should be rewarded, such as >3.7 on 4.0 scale gets to leave early the next day or something to that effect.  Finally, test questions should be meaningful to the people taking the exam.  MMs should not be doing full blown ECPs and ETs should no be explaining the how to do an overhaul of a half-inch steam valve.  Test questions should not be marathons of information for one question that take up the entire sheet front and back just for the fun of it. 

Until we address both issues of the cheating problem, it will never get fixed.  Operators will always need to know more, but they also have to the confindence that through standard training, operational experience, and system knowledge that they can pass an exam and do fairly well on it without having to memorize obscure procedures and information.

[LT Dan]

I would agree with the above recommendations, and add one little caveat to it.....

Results of the test should be CONSTANTLY used to tweak the exam difficulty of the exams.  If, in a 100% honest effort, > 40% fail the exam, the test should be looked at and possibly rewritten.  If no one fails, then it should be looked at and possibly rewritten.  Test results should not take away liberty or affect working hours negatively.  Positive test results should be rewarded, such as >3.7 on 4.0 scale gets to leave early the next day or something to that effect.  Finally, test questions should be meaningful to the people taking the exam.  MMs should not be doing full blown ECPs and ETs should no be explaining the how to do an overhaul of a half-inch steam valve.  Test questions should not be marathons of information for one question that take up the entire sheet front and back just for the fun of it.  

Until we address both issues of the cheating problem, it will never get fixed.  Operators will always need to know more, but they also have to the confindence that through standard training, operational experience, and system knowledge that they can pass an exam and do fairly well on it without having to memorize obscure procedures and information.

I agree with you.  

I also think that 2.80 as the fleet standard needs to be revisited.  We have a slew of guys who barely make it through the training pipeline these days, making grades slightly in excess of 2.50 all the way through.  Then, magically, we expect them to get a 2.80 when they make it to the fleet.  Why do we think that guys who never got above a 2.8 while in training when their only job was to study and learn are somehow going to score 2.8 while trying to do their real job?  Some guys are not ever going to be able to get there (without "help").  I think the standard should be 2.5 until someone is Senior-in-rate qualified.  

[Fermi2]

Typical T Ball response. Lower the standards.

Just so you know, the Big Leagues standard is 80% what you call a 3.2

Mike

[Preciousblue1965]

I agree with you.  

I also think that 2.80 as the fleet standard needs to be revisited.  We have a slew of guys who barely make it through the training pipeline these days, making grades slightly in excess of 2.50 all the way through.  Then, magically, we expect them to get a 2.80 when they make it to the fleet.  Why do we think that guys who never got above a 2.8 while in training when their only job was to study and learn are somehow going to score 2.8 while trying to do their real job?  Some guys are not ever going to be able to get there (without "help").  I think the standard should be 2.5 until someone is Senior-in-rate qualified.  

I never understood the 2.8 thing either.  I know Prototype was one of the worst places with regards to CTEs.  There was no set definition of what was "2.5 Knowledge" or "2.8 Knowledge"  In my mind, a student who just qualified was required to have 2.5 knowledge.  If a student took one of the Staff CTEs, then they would be hard pressed to make it out of the "square root club".  While I fully agree that a staff member should be able to score higher than a newly qualified student, there shouldn't be THAT big of a difference.  Another big problem I had with the CTEs at prototype were some of the point break downs.  They would count off points for not writing down the assumption that 3 feet is approx to 1 meter. You spent as much time writing down assumptions as you did attempting to calculate the answer(worst part was it took 3 hours to give the lecture, yet you only had 2 hours for the ENTIRE CTE exam).  

[Preciousblue1965]

Typical T Ball response. Lower the standards.

Just so you know, the Big Leagues standard is 80% what you call a 3.2

Mike

Not advocating "lowering the standards" for the sake of making people pass.  Just making sure the standards are at the correct level based on a reasonable expectation.  When you are asking for verbatim wording from a obscure procedure that is 12 pages long and no one has ever used before just to get 2.5, there is something amiss. The questions should be meaningful to the people that take the exam.  I would never expect an ET to be able to walk through an entire steam valve overhaul, including all necessary QA paperwork and inspection criteria, yet I have seen that on CTEs many times.  However, I would expect a PPWS to be able to reasonably work through a ECP because he needs to know how they are done to provide solid back up to the PPWO and RO.

[Fermi2]

Lowest grade I ever got on an exam in the T Ball League was 3.9.
Quit coddling and enforce the standards. The current attitude is why T Ballers are so woefully unqualified in the Big Leagues. If you're asking questions based on your objectives then they are fair game. Sorry, the amount I have to know to perform my basic duties is probably about 950% above what you're asking on a T Ball exam and I and my big League buddies get along just fine. Just so you know, at my utility if a guy gets less than 85% I have some 'splainin to do.

The current T Ball philosophy is to coddle and unfortunately it's going to get worse as the last of those who had to actually earn an NEC leave the Navy.

Mike

[Gamecock]

Lowest grade I ever got on an exam in the T Ball League was 3.9.

[HydroDave63]

I wonder if it is 2.8 , "2.5 and survive" or "cooperate and graduate" onboard the boat pictured below:

[Preciousblue1965]

Lowest grade I ever got on an exam in the T Ball League was 3.9.
Quit coddling and enforce the standards. The current attitude is why T Ballers are so woefully unqualified in the Big Leagues. If you're asking questions based on your objectives then they are fair game. Sorry, the amount I have to know to perform my basic duties is probably about 950% above what you're asking on a T Ball exam and I and my big League buddies get along just fine. Just so you know, at my utility if a guy gets less than 85% I have some 'splainin to do.

The current T Ball philosophy is to coddle and unfortunately it's going to get worse as the last of those who had to actually earn an NEC leave the Navy.

Mike

I am not advocating "coddling" in the least bit.  As I have stated in many posts, I feel that the Navy is already "coddling" above and beyond Rickover's worst nightmares.  I am just simply advocating being more realistic.  If you truly want an ET to know how to overhaul a valve, then teach him to do it.  Don't give him an hour long lecture about how to do it, wait 2 months, then expect him to know everything about it(even stuff that wasn't in the lecture) and be able to write it all down in perfect verbatim order and wording. That is what is going on now.  \

Yes I will admit that when I was coming through the pipeline(1998-2000) the filter was starting to be removed, but there was still enough of a filter left that I felt I had earned my NEC, especially to what I saw come down the line as an instructor later on.  

Sure the Navy might be a "Tball league" in your eyes, it is still a starting place for many in the industry. Afterall, didn't you come up through the Tball leagues to become the omniscient operator you are today?

[Marlin]

   2.5, 2.8, or 3.2 is just a number. Having been the Training PO for the Engineering department including the EOOWs an EWSs I can tell you that grade points may have more to do with test development than knowledge, as long as the standard of training is kept high. On my first day of ELT school we were given a test to determine our level of knowledge and to determine whether or not we would be on 8 hour days (40 hrs/wk) or 12 hours (60 hrs/wk) for school. Nobody passed at no surprise to the instructors. Our Comprehensive exam at the end of Nuke school was developed on alternate years by Bainbridge and then Mare Island there were no 4.0s or even 3.9s on any of those exams. To be fair we had a graded class system that taught bare minimum to section 1 and a full load to section 12 but the exams were all the same.
   What bothers me is not the grades but the acceptance of cheating, that it is, just part of the game. Is this an indictment of the rank and file or a failure of the system. What ever it is, it needs fixed.

[JustinHEMI05]

Wait a minute, someone pinch me or correct me if I read this all wrong. Someone suggested that to fix the program, they turn it over to the officers? And then threaten everyone? No one could possibly really believe that is the solution, so I am going to go with the thought that that must have been said tongue in cheek.  

I agree with Mike. The solution is for the Navy to emulate the commercial industry, and not say stupid things like "the commercial industry strives to be like the Navy." Like he said, the min standard is 3.2, with questions asked at 3.4, and in order to be certain you are going to make it, an 87 or 3.48. You get made fun of less than a 90, or a 3.60 and people start to consider you a slacker at <95. All the while, standards and expectations get raised to a higher level with each new generation of operators. This is part of the reason I don't mind living within the 10 mile zone of my plant.  

Then again, the standards of Navy operators isn't really the question of this thread. This thread deals with exam security. As far as I remember, there wasn't any real exam security in the Navy. So yet again, I suggest the Navy benchmark the commercial industry in this respect, it could learn a lot.

Then again, it kind of does go back to the unreasonable expectations set forth by the senior officers in the Navy (ie pass/fail rate, etc). So that would need addressed first. I think you should simplify things and make super hard exams, that everyone has to pass, period. Stop expecting failures. When you really think about it, that is stupid. Then, with your new super hard exams, learn to control them, but I really don't have any ideas how to do that right now due to the reason below.

Apparently, the possibility of mast isn't a deterrent to cheating, so maybe something more drastic is in order. I know the consequences of cheating in the commercial world are severe, just short of public execution. Its hard to say what the Navy can do in this regard, without going overboard. Then again, what price do you put on exam security? Should be steep I would think.

Its a tough problem with no clear solution. I certainly don't envy those that have to work within such a damaged system.

[drayer54]

Navy Probing Alleged Cheating on Nuke Reactor Work

The Navy's top admiral says the service is investigating alleged cheating among senior sailors on written tests related to training on naval nuclear power reactors.

Adm. Jonathan Greenert told a Pentagon news conference Tuesday that he was disappointed in the alleged breakdown in discipline. He said the investigation was ongoing.

The head of the Navy's nuclear propulsion programs, Adm. John Richardson, told reporters that the examinations on which sailors allegedly cheated included classified information.

The allegations involve alleged cheating on tests related to the nuclear reactors that provide propulsion for Navy submarines and aircraft carriers. It does not involve naval nuclear weapons and thus is not directly comparable to the Air Force's investigation of alleged cheating by officers who operate land-based nuclear missiles.

At this stage of the investigation, approximately a dozen sailors are believed to be involved in the alleged cheating, although the investigation is still active and has not reached final conclusions.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/navy-probing-alleged-cheating-nuke-reactor-work-22362057

[HydroDave63]

Navy Probing Alleged Cheating on Nuke Reactor Work

The Navy's top admiral says the service is investigating alleged cheating among senior sailors on written tests related to training on naval nuclear power reactors.

Adm. Jonathan Greenert told a Pentagon news conference Tuesday that he was disappointed in the alleged breakdown in discipline. He said the investigation was ongoing.

The head of the Navy's nuclear propulsion programs, Adm. John Richardson, told reporters that the examinations on which sailors allegedly cheated included classified information.

The allegations involve alleged cheating on tests related to the nuclear reactors that provide propulsion for Navy submarines and aircraft carriers. It does not involve naval nuclear weapons and thus is not directly comparable to the Air Force's investigation of alleged cheating by officers who operate land-based nuclear missiles.

At this stage of the investigation, approximately a dozen sailors are believed to be involved in the alleged cheating, although the investigation is still active and has not reached final conclusions.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/navy-probing-alleged-cheating-nuke-reactor-work-22362057

We should start a pool to wager on when our first post arrives "So,  a guy I know.... got a general discharge for something the Navy didn't really prove etc etc, but he got denuked anyways etc etc ,and I'm just wondering how hard it would be for me, uh, I mean him, to get one of those six figure jobs that you guys talk about on here." 

[GLW]

.......I'm just wondering how hard it would be ....

not hard enough,...

[Marlin]

This is disturbing.

"Richardson said the investigation has just begun and it’s too soon to tell how many were involved, but he believes that the number will be less than 160 – or 1 percent of the 16,000 personnel in the Navy nuclear propulsion program. Richardson did not say how he arrived at that number."

http://www.stripes.com/news/navy/sailors-allegedly-cheated-on-nuclear-reactor-tests-1.265597

[mars88]

Because he just made up the number--grossly overstating it so that when he later reports only 37 were cheating, the program will look that much better.

[HydroDave63]

Should make for lots of brand-new deconners for Fall outage season! 

[HalfHazzard]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/navy-probing-alleged-cheating-nuke-reactor-work-22362057

Adm. John Richardson, director of the Navy's nuclear propulsion program, said an undisclosed number of senior sailors are alleged to have provided test information to their peers. He was not more specific, but one official said the information was shared from the sailors' home computers, which could be a violation of security rules because information about nuclear reactors operations is classified.

That's a big no no.

[mars88]

^ Probably not as bad as the cheating itself, since it's 'CONFIDENTIAL' at best.

[spekkio]

^ Probably not as bad as the cheating itself, since it's 'CONFIDENTIAL' at best.

Unauthorized disclosure of classified information, even 'just confidential,' is a federal offense punishable with a 5-figure (6-figure?) fine and years in prison. That's on top of the UCMJ offenses and other punitive/administrative action that the military will take.

Won't be the first time someone mishandled Confidential material and those cases weren't dealt with quite so severely, probably because it was when someone's soon-to-be ex-wife told the CO that he brought his training notebook home and thus he didn't distribute the material. But in the wake of Edward Snowden I wouldn't be surprised if they started pursuing the full extent of what they can do to you for putting classified material on your PC.

Cheating on a training exam is ethically wrong, perhaps an article 133 or 92 offense that will be punished at NJP, but you can't end up in prison for it.

[a|F]

These stories will continue to come to light until the navy commits to some real exam security.  Unfortunately, it is now a systemic cultural issue and this is not limited to prototypes.  They could learn something from the commercial industry.

[GLW]

If you missed my point, neither of those are reactors that allowed to travel the entire world freely with their own regulatory agency; one isn't even a reactor facility. Rickover built this program so well that he was called before congress to tell them the reason his program had operated so long without incident. The navy has never stopped building reactors and no one questions our safety,....

oopsie,....

[HydroDave63]

^ Probably not as bad as the cheating itself, since it's 'CONFIDENTIAL' at best.

Declining standards....check!   

[SpaceJustice]

I have a couple friends who are staff there right now, it sounds like a very cheery time to be a prototype instructor in SC.

[ridgerunner61]

The Navy always responds to these situations in the same way. It is a personal accountability problem not a systematic failure. This will result in a massacare of Staff

[Fermi2]

30 People and maybe more IS a systematic failure.... It is a personal accountability item above all else but that many people indicates a system OR a system administration issue.

I know a guy who is a retired LDO, knows a guy in NR. NR says it ain't gonna be pretty!

Any bets on how many O-6 and O-5 hears will roll?

[ChiefRocscooter]

Funny we have been "hearing" for years that the fine filter was becoming first a sieve and than a pump, well I guess the head loss was to high! (pun intended)  So what do we do we do when head loss is to high for the running pump?  That's right we start a second pump up and get our flow rate back to where it needs to be problem is you still have a head loss issues! (again pun intended)

The best part is that the heads "rolling" will be rolled by the guys above who set this all in motion by demanding a system that has a through put of almost 100% when over the long history it is clear that the system can not function anywhere near that with the people and processes involved.  Without trying to slam one generation vs. the next lets just say that in todays world (say last 10 years) going (read getting into and money for) to college has become easy to do and what "most" kids do after high school because well that's what you do after HS now.  Now 30 to 40 years ago college was not what "everyone" did so there were far many more "gee I wish I could go to college" kids that the nuke program could sweep up and offer a chance at an education (read $, GI bill, ect...).

The quantity of quality is not there any more, sure there are lots of really smart people in the program just not as many as there used to be and with the growing negatives of the military you can bet it will get worse. 

Think it is bad now with guy bailing and very few staying for a career, wait till this new retirement plan stuff (401/IRA type) kicks into full gear.  How many E6s/E7s will  be at 10-12 years looking at "well I can go back to sea and all the fun that entails" or "Gee I got my NEC, my training, and a good start on my retirement... So I guess I will bail and make twice as much on the outside as I will at sea and get to come home to the family every day!".

Anyone remember "tailhook"?  That changed the flight community, in some ways good and some bad, wonder how much damage/change this will do?

[spekkio]

The Navy condones practices that would get students today kicked out of high school, let alone college. These guys are learning these practices while in the Navy, from Chiefs and mid grade officers in an older generation you look so highly upon.

Tell me, what's the difference between an instructor stamping his foot 3 times when he verbatim says a question and answer on an exam vs. a student looking at the piece of paper himself? Because if the concern is having prior knowledge of the questions and answers, the outcome is the same in both cases.  What's the difference between looking at the answer key and a proctor looking at the answer key to push a student to the right answer to a (usually poorly worded) question? It's been a while, but anytime I took state/national standardized tests in school, you weren't allowed to ask questions about questions. Nada. And the proctors didn't have the key next to them.

The Navy isn't an academic institution, and NPTU is a training command and not an educational institution, but you can't expect a 19 year old with little life experience to be able to distinguish when it is or isn't okay to have the 'gouge' on an exam. By the time they have been in for 5, 6, 10 years they've been indoctrinated into this culture. The line "It's always been like that..." comes to mind.

Also, if you think that E-7 to E-9 retirement is worth the opportunity cost of staying in the Navy vice getting out at 22-24 years old and moving onto greener pastures, and that's the primary thing on which you're basing the decision to stay in the Navy, I've got a bridge to sell you. That's not a knock against being a career nuke, but a knock on people who think that it's fiscally better than other options.

[Brittlefracture]

Took them long enough: http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/navy-kicks-out-34-for-nuke-cheating

[SCMasterchef]

Not being a prodigy of the navy nuclear tower of excellence myself, this entire discussion highly concerns me.  These are the same people, student or instructor, who are now transitioning from the ivory tower of navy nuclear to what I consider the most professional business of commercial nuclear power.  These are the same folks who are entering our Control Rooms and operating equipment outside our Control Rooms that we have looked up too for many years in the commercial nuclear business has having a non-waving level of honesty and integrity.  What is wrong with this picture?  At least there are very few instances over the long history of our commercial business where cheating was identified.  Those instances were immediately corrected and corrective actions taken to ensure that they do not occur again.  Maybe its time relook and rethink that old phylosphy of we look after our kind.

[GoWest]

I figured I would make a reply since I have a background in both the commercial and Navy programs.

The fact that there are large cheating rings does not surprise me in the least. This occurred almost blatantly on the submarine that I served on. Qualification exams would be given to people to take in their racks and the monthly exams would have an answer sheet passed around. I refused to cheat several times and failed the test and got counseled. The problem is that it is both systemic and administrative. The existence of cheating has gone on for a long time, but the SAT process (with cheating) makes each exam harder and harder, which positively reinforces cheating. Additionally, the fact that the Navy uses essay-form answers instead of multiple choice answers ensures that test writers start getting nit-picky. In order to still meet the SAT criteria (which I am no expert on), they write the answers in bits of keyword phrases that you need to answer. Forget a phrase, you lose 0.5 points. A more important phrase, 1.0 points, and so on. Often these are complete bulls@#t. If you had to answer a physics problem with a numerical solution, you might lose points if you didn't explain (even though the question didn't explicitly ask) why it was relevant and what it meant. It is completely insane. I am convinced that everybody in the chain of command is aware of this, including the EDMC (99%), Engineer (90%), and Captain (75%). They all review the tests and look at the bullshit questions and answer keys. They know what is going on. They are simply playing a game to meet their SAT requirements so that no major discrepancies are found on inspection.

As far as the operations side of the nuclear industry (where I've worked), the process was the complete opposite. The exams were given with proctors, the questions were multiple choice (open book), and you had to study your continuing training material to pass it (or in the case of initial training, closed book). I think the independence of the training department is the reason for the greater integrity. You can't cheat, you'll be caught. I should also note that my initial Navy training was administered similarly to how the commercial training programs worked. It surprises me that these articles talk about cheating in the initial training programs in the Navy since the real cheating occurs when you are on the ship.

The solution for the Navy has an easy and a hard part. The easy part is to use proctors. Every test must be proctored. The hard part is composed of two parts. First, the current exam banks are probably shit, so some independent review to make them reasonable is needed. The second part is that training and operations can't be separated as easily. Perhaps including one nuclear officer and chief to focus simply on training would help. Personally, I would include civilian SROs or SRO-certs who have worked in training in that team.

TL;DR: the civilian world (as far as I can tell) is fine, but the Navy is f@#$%d.

Edit: I should also note that the logical question you might ask of my post would be "how do you get enough failures for the SAT process to work when everybody is cheating?" The answer is that the tests are so long that there is a limited time to write your answer and read the passed around answer sheet (which doesn't occur on every test based on the 'pseudo-proctor'. The smarter sailors will still score better because they have less to correct.) I'm guessing that my post sounds insane, but I'm pretty sure if some other submariners spoke up, you would see that it isn't. But to be fair, it has been over a decade since I was in so things might be different today.

Modified for language
Nukeworker Rule #6
6. Sexual innuendo and profanity. Keep the site PG-13, kids visit this site, the NRC visits this site, the Secret Service visits this site, Managers visit this site, I visit the site, good Christian people visit the site, etc. If it's questionable, don't do it. Let's just say that if you're going  to post something that really needs the questionable language to achieve the desired humorous effect put it in the 'Bathroom Wall' in the donors only area, so those that choose not to go there will not be exposed to it. Got it? If you're in the middle of a thread and feel the need for an expletive, can we maybe star out some of the letters or something?

[SCMasterchef]

So I guess that if you are navy or navy legacy then cheating appears to be OK?  I guess in today society that we should allow our children the same leniency in their school curriculums that way if they decide to go into the Navy then they will already have the SKILL AND KNOWLEDGE necessary to succeed and then be readily adapted to coming into the commercial industry and bring their SAT process history with them.  I have been a commercial nuclear trainer for over 28 years and was one of the first in commercial nuclear power arena, other than operations, to have to go through a SAT based continuing training program, TMI post accident, to keep my job and did we have to cheat to do this:  NO.  So what is wrong with this picture?

[GoWest]

The Navy cheating issue is a huge problem. And the skills and knowledge of commercial operators greatly exceeds that of Navy Nukes for obvious reasons. All that I can say is that there probably is some 'contamination'. Most trainers that I saw were former nukes and probably about half the operators in the recent classes were. If you interact with former Navy trainers, all that I can say is that I recommend that you beat the Navy out of them. The ones that I classed with in ILT I think turned out okay, but they had a really strong training department to back them up.

[hamsamich]

I think an overlooked reason that cheating goes on in the Navy is how overworked those guys are.  I saw it first hand in the late 80s early 90s and if it is still anything like that people are operating on little sleep without much time off often.  I'm not condoning it or saying it is right, but the reality of why is usually something built into the system.  These people will get it done and nobody cares how many hours they work since you don't get OT in the Navy.  How they get it done is the problem.  The people paying the bills really don't give a crap about cheating until it rears its ugly head into the press.  Why?  Because an entire training dept operating on its own and proper training for operators (ie taking people out of a rotation) would cost a bundle and would adversely affect the insane operational tempo of many nuclear vessels' nuclear departments.  This is what happens when you say "git er dun" and really mean it.

[GoWest]

Indeed. When I served, on duty days our Engineer was one of the more decent types who mandated that we have at least 4 hours of sleep. I don't want to sound like I'm bragging (because I'm not), but I have done two reactor startups and a reactor shutdown (from the RO chair) within 28 hours, as well as standing a 6 hour watch outside of that (I think I stood 14 hours or so of watch that day). Yes, two plus one. The Navy is f@#$%@g stupid and I hate them for their negligence.


Modified for language
Nukeworker Rule #6
6. Sexual innuendo and profanity. Keep the site PG-13, kids visit this site, the NRC visits this site, the Secret Service visits this site, Managers visit this site, I visit the site, good Christian people visit the site, etc. If it's questionable, don't do it. Let's just say that if you're going  to post something that really needs the questionable language to achieve the desired humorous effect put it in the 'Bathroom Wall' in the donors only area, so those that choose not to go there will not be exposed to it. Got it? If you're in the middle of a thread and feel the need for an expletive, can we maybe star out some of the letters or something?

[spekkio]

I think an overlooked reason that cheating goes on in the Navy is how overworked those guys are.  I saw it first hand in the late 80s early 90s and if it is still anything like that people are operating on little sleep without much time off often.  I'm not condoning it or saying it is right, but the reality of why is usually something built into the system.  These people will get it done and nobody cares how many hours they work since you don't get OT in the Navy.  How they get it done is the problem.  The people paying the bills really don't give a crap about cheating until it rears its ugly head into the press.  Why?  Because an entire training dept operating on its own and proper training for operators (ie taking people out of a rotation) would cost a bundle and would adversely affect the insane operational tempo of many nuclear vessels' nuclear departments.  This is what happens when you say "git er dun" and really mean it.

This. Unless you've been in the Navy, you won't understand the mentality that training is a burden to meet checks in the box when there are more important things at hand keeping the department at work 16 hours a day in port. Not saying it's entirely justified, but when the guys have spent 16, sometimes 20 hour days doing a compacted maintenance period, going through excessive administrative requirements like making sure that everything is brief/walkthrough/certified, there really isn't much time to study for the monthly CTE that includes operational questions about shifting propulsion to the EPM or conducting a single loop recovery. That stuff just ain't important at the moment, but it's in the EDM/EDOM so it SHALL be done. Well, it 'gets done', and then everyone moves onto the important maintenance tasks at hand.

Underway there's time for due diligence in training, but inport is far too busy and with recent submarine/carrier OPTEMPOs, 'they' keep shortening maintenance periods to get the boat back out on deployment, which means longer days for nukes.

You take these guys after they've been in the fleet, and even though prototype allows the staff time for training they've already been indoctrinated toward treating it as something that just 'gets done' rather than something to take seriously. While some of that falls on the Eng/EDMC leadership, some of that also falls on a rigid requirement to do X amount of training no matter what, and some of that falls on ORSE boards that ding training programs for having too few failures on CTEs (I have personally had the 'too few failures' hit IRT the check chemistry program. Apparently your ELTs who have all been on board over 18 months are not expected to know how to do their jobs. Who knew?). So once the tests get ridiculously difficult or the results get doctored to produce the appropriate distribution of grades, the entire program has lost all integrity. Thankfully, neither of those happened on my boat, but if anonymous postings on The Stupid Shall be Punished blog were any indication, it wasn't an entirely abnormal practice.

[SCMasterchef]

Cheating is cheating, the excuses abound, still excuses.  This level of thought is why this country is in the state that it is in, politically.  The Navy and its Management, all the way to the top, should be ashamed at what has happened.  No excuses, no absolution, no forgiveness, it is wrong.  Don't bring your mentality to our commercial nuclear business.  Honesty and integrity is our expectation in commercial nuclear power.  I have been doing this too long to continue to see the poor quality being demonstrated and it is gradually working it way into the management philosphy of the commercial business.  It is time to stop, reinstate honesty and integrity and allow our business to grow and be what it was intended to be, Safe, Secure, and Caring, not only about ourselves but the customers we provide our expertise too.

[GLW]

This. Unless you've been in the Navy,.................., it wasn't an entirely abnormal practice.

Strong post, I EAOS'd in '88, I perceive your post is the end result of Big Navy taking over Rickover's "special people" and their "special paradigm",...

I say that because what the nukes are going through already existed in the non-nuke fleet pretty much forever,...

It's just nobody really cares all that much when the training records of a bunch of oil fired 1200# steam boys are less than pristine,...

Put the word "nuclear" in front of anything,....and magically it's a catastrophe,....

Cheating is cheating, the excuses abound, still excuses........I have been doing this too long to continue to see the poor quality being demonstrated and it is gradually working it way into the management philosphy of the commercial business.  It is time to stop, reinstate honesty and integrity and allow our business to grow and be what it was intended to be, Safe, Secure, and Caring, not only about ourselves but the customers we provide our expertise too.

It's a Navy problem,...

The Navy problem cannot "work it's way" into the commercial world unless the commercial world allows it,...

That would be a commercial problem,...

The commercial nukes are obligated to screen out those who should not be there regardless of origin, be it USN, RPI or McD,...

Plus, your/our business is not growing, commercial nukes are not being replaced as fast or at a quicker rate than they are going away,...

If you interpret growing as meaning it takes 600+ employees to operate a site and put power on the grid when 30 years ago it required 250 employees to operate that same site and put power on the grid you would be correct on that account,...

Unfortunately, the corporate bean counters often see 350 people too many,...

ergo, fewer and fewer commercial nukes,...

I'm just saying,...

[mjd]

If you interpret growing as meaning it takes 600+ employees to operate a site and put power on the grid when 30 years ago it required 250 employees to operate that same site and put power on the grid you would be correct on that account,...

Unfortunately, the corporate bean counters often see 350 people too many,...

ergo, fewer and fewer commercial nukes,...

I'm just saying,...

When the plants ran with 250 staff, they didn't run. Capacity factors averaged 60%. The problem is the pendulum has swung too far in the wrong direction, and you can blame INPO. Most of the extra 350 staff today do nothing but INPO required paperwork.

[GLW]

When the plants ran with 250 staff, they didn't run. Capacity factors averaged 60%. The problem is the pendulum has swung too far in the wrong direction, and you can blame INPO. Most of the extra 350 staff today do nothing but INPO required paperwork.

I'll concede that, but let's not get folks started on INPO,...

The viability problem behind your stats is that although increased capacity can offset increased staff that offset does not help add profit dollars to the bottom line in a now unregulated industry which is not expected to financially perform as a "widows & orphans" stock,...

which was the expectation in the regulated days of lower capacity and lower staffing,...

plus long term liability costs are increasing,...

and we are again drifting off-topic,...

BZ's general observation on Internet forums/threads etal, By the 5th post in any thread it starts drifting off topic. By 12 to 15 it has nothing to do with the original topic and if it surives to 30 or so it magically gets back on topic. This applies almost everywhere.

Mike

[spekkio]

Cheating is cheating, the excuses abound, still excuses.  This level of thought is why this country is in the state that it is in, politically.  The Navy and its Management, all the way to the top, should be ashamed at what has happened.  No excuses, no absolution, no forgiveness, it is wrong.  Don't bring your mentality to our commercial nuclear business.  Honesty and integrity is our expectation in commercial nuclear power.  I have been doing this too long to continue to see the poor quality being demonstrated and it is gradually working it way into the management philosphy of the commercial business.  It is time to stop, reinstate honesty and integrity and allow our business to grow and be what it was intended to be, Safe, Secure, and Caring, not only about ourselves but the customers we provide our expertise too.

No one is saying that cheating is okay, nor is anyone making excuses. If you don't understand the root of the problem, you can't fix it.

I suppose step one would be for the nuclear Navy writ large to admit it has a problem. Not with every boat or command, but certainly with more than one command. Everytime a story like this comes out, everyone of importance swears up and down that it's an isolated incident and that these Sailors were just terrible people who decided to cheat on their own volition. Until it hits the press again a few years later. See USS Memphis circa 2010.

I also agree with the poster who griped about the way that tests are written and keyed. Let's face it - the Eng and EDMC weren't hired because of their ability to produce quality test questions, nor was the EDTA. Thoughtfully written multiple choice questions would go a long way in reducing the amount of subjectivity involved in grading exams and the perception that they are 'bs' among Sailors.