EM(SS) qualifying Reactor Operator, is it possible?

[Higgins]

I haven't posted a lot on Nukeworker so far, but I've been looking through the forums and I love the wealth of information on all aspects of the nuclear field. Thanks for helping out nubs like me.

I'm wondering whether a senior-in-rate qual'd Electrician can ever qualify Reactor Operator on a sub. I qualified Reactor Technician, liked the instrumentation aspect of it, and learned even more about the plant than I would have otherwise. I thought I could do the same for R.O., but I was unable to get the command to sign off on a waiver (NEC required) to let me enter R.O. quals. Have you guys ever heard of any way to qualify R.O. as an Electrician? I'm willing to put forth the effort. Actually I'm putting forth the effort anyways because I enjoy learning, I can use it for EWS, and just in case they end up changing their mind later on.

ET and EM go through very similar schooling, only diverging for 3-4 weeks at the end of A-school. I have no problem putting in extra time to learn what's required in order to stand a safe R.O. watch. Anyone have experience with this?

Thanks

(i had ta include a sentance with speeling errors so I could get one of tha awesome Broadzilla posts. those always make my day)

[Fermi2]

That's a great question. In the late 80s at A1W I qualified as a Reactor Operator (I was an MM2). I had one of the highest scores they'd ever had on a written and evaluated watch. Then this Lt said MMs weren't smart enough to nbe Reactor Operators so I never got to stand the watch.

Mike

[DDMurray]

I haven't posted a lot on Nukeworker so far, but I've been looking through the forums and I love the wealth of information on all aspects of the nuclear field. Thanks for helping out nubs like me.

I'm wondering whether a senior-in-rate qual'd Electrician can ever qualify Reactor Operator on a sub. I qualified Reactor Technician, liked the instrumentation aspect of it, and learned even more about the plant than I would have otherwise. I thought I could do the same for R.O., but I was unable to get the command to sign off on a waiver (NEC required) to let me enter R.O. quals. Have you guys ever heard of any way to qualify R.O. as an Electrician? I'm willing to put forth the effort. Actually I'm putting forth the effort anyways because I enjoy learning, I can use it for EWS, and just in case they end up changing their mind later on.

ET and EM go through very similar schooling, only diverging for 3-4 weeks at the end of A-school. I have no problem putting in extra time to learn what's required in order to stand a safe R.O. watch. Anyone have experience with this?

Thanks

(i had ta include a sentance with speeling errors so I could get one of tha awesome Broadzilla posts. those always make my day)

Only personnel with proper NEC can qualify as RO, meaning you must complete the RO training pipeline.  In the old days, the EWS was allowed to relieve as RO for head call, but that went away in the early 80's.  There are many MM and EM who could stand the watch as well or better than ETs, but they simply aren't allowed to IAW the EDM/EDOM.  If BZ says he did, then he did, but he shouldn't have been allowed to.

[Fermi2]

That was their point DD. I should have never been allowed to. I just picked up the qual card and did it. My LCC said it was ok. Turns out it wasn't which was too bad. I would have been the best RO in the Navy.

[Already Gone]

It doesn't make much sense, really.  It's flipping switches.  An RO must first qualify EO. An EM may qualify RT and SRO, but not RO.  Anyone can be a Throttleman.
Well, almost anyone.
As an MM, I caught flak for qualifying Throttleman (in the entire rest of the Navy Throttleman is strictly an MM watch) because none of the other MM's on the ship had ever done so.

If you can pass the tests and boards, you ought to be able to qualify and stand a watch.

[Fermi2]

I 100% agree.

[Neutron_Herder]

I haven't posted a lot on Nukeworker so far, but I've been looking through the forums and I love the wealth of information on all aspects of the nuclear field. Thanks for helping out nubs like me.

I'm wondering whether a senior-in-rate qual'd Electrician can ever qualify Reactor Operator on a sub. I qualified Reactor Technician, liked the instrumentation aspect of it, and learned even more about the plant than I would have otherwise. I thought I could do the same for R.O., but I was unable to get the command to sign off on a waiver (NEC required) to let me enter R.O. quals. Have you guys ever heard of any way to qualify R.O. as an Electrician? I'm willing to put forth the effort. Actually I'm putting forth the effort anyways because I enjoy learning, I can use it for EWS, and just in case they end up changing their mind later on.

ET and EM go through very similar schooling, only diverging for 3-4 weeks at the end of A-school. I have no problem putting in extra time to learn what's required in order to stand a safe R.O. watch. Anyone have experience with this?

Thanks

(i had ta include a sentance with speeling errors so I could get one of tha awesome Broadzilla posts. those always make my day)

Yeah, the RO thing's locked down by NEC, and there's not a whole lot you can do about that.

You'll learn just as much about the plant (if not more) by qualifying SRO.  If you want to get some time on a critical plant see if they'll let you stand some U/I watches.  It's not the same as qualifying but it will give you some insight as to what's going through the RO's brain on watch... besides the World of Warcraft game he's missing out on by having to sit at the panel.

[crusemm]

I concur, however keep learning and qualify EWS .  Also, you get to stand RO U/I's while in EWS quals .   I have seen 2nd classes qualify.  They weren't 2nds for long .  On a previous ship I was on, all ERS's were required to qualify TH due to having to take control of the throttles during casualties.  this wound up being a benny to the EO's as that was one more person to relieve during EOM proficiencies.  I have seen RO's and EO's qualify ERLL/ERUL/ERS, I have seen MM's do SG adds (under instruction) to qualify secondary chemist.  But they were not allowed to actually qualify (NEC thing again)

[IRLFAN]

I would have been the best RO in the Navy.

Maybe, since I was already out at the time.

[LivinginParadise]

There are many MM and EM who could stand the watch as well or better than ETs,

There may or may not be a certain boat out here on the waterfront where the ET/ET SEO/SRO team has screwed up so many times that ET/ET is strictly prohibited, but EM/EM and EM/ET is still allowed...  RC div also owns >50% of the incident reports in this certain boats incident report binder...

Just saying...

/end twidget bashing.

[Zunyr]

You could try re-enlisting for ET A-School which would get you a 3353.  Saw a MM1 reenlist to retread as ELT.

[The_Wedge]

As far as the EDM is concerned RO and ELT are NEC limited quals. As far as all other watch stations(AEA, ERLL, RT, TH, ERF, EO, ERUL, ERS, SEO, SRW, and SRO) are concerned as long, as you are a nuke, you can qualify. Yes that means as an EM you can qualify SRW, or ERS if your heart desires. As well, an MM can qualify EO and SRO, should he truly wish to put himself through it. Standing the watch however....well, that just depends on how the ship wants to handle it. I have seen 1 case of an EM being in the QWSL as RO. That however was just the Captain accidentally adding him in the RO tab instead of the SRO tab....lasted for all of 5 minutes.

[dave in St. Louis]

Yes, yes... I know I'm VERY late to this game.  But I have germane information.

We had an EM1/SS qualify RO on USS Michigan SSBN-727 (Blue) in the Eighties.  He was told that he would not be able to stand said watch, but that he could go through the qualification process.

[co60slr]

He was told that he would not be able to stand said watch, but that he could go through the qualification process.

"Qualifying" and "Going through the motions" isn't the same.     If you can't stand the watch, you're not qualified.

[HydroDave63]

Well thanks Pheidippides, as intimated by Co60, you can lay down and die now,......

I always pictured Co60 as more of a "Quintus Arrinius" type

[Fermi2]

You know what? This topic REALLY steams me because I have personal experience with this and 24 years later it STILL gets my goat!

[Cycoticpenguin]

Yeah, the RO thing's locked down by NEC, and there's not a whole lot you can do about that.

You'll learn just as much about the plant (if not more) by qualifying SRO.  If you want to get some time on a critical plant see if they'll let you stand some U/I watches.  It's not the same as qualifying but it will give you some insight as to what's going through the RO's brain on watch... besides the World of Warcraft game he's missing out on by having to sit at the panel.

I apologize for being crass, but he could also stop wasting his time and qualify watch supervisor?

[co60slr]

Well thanks Pheidippides, as intimated by Co60, you can lay down and die now,......

Hey now...we just work for you Marssim.      We make sure the "archives" are full of correct information, so you can search/copy/paste to links in the year 2015 when we're still seeing the same questions/issues.

 

 

[co60slr]

...commentary to the effect of thank you but it's not accurately germane

It is germane.   (Give me a break here...it's almost Christmas). 

Some "RO-wannabies" are allowed to briefly sit in the sacred chair.  Some may even be able to manipulate reactivity under VERY close supervision.   Some work on the qual card (without reading the Navy Regs first) in hopes of "being the first non-RO, RO wannabe" to actual "qualify" (i.e., stand the watch NOT under instruction of a qualified RO).    Many have tried, none have done it to the true definition of "qualified".   If your CO let you "qualify", perhaps he also ended up in the Navy Times for other reasons.

Besides, radiochemistry is much more difficult than reactor physics.   Anyone can "jump smile jump" into >0 SUR; however, how many non-ELT, ELT wannabes can sample the primary without getting contaminated and getting the correct result?  Dang...some ELTs....well....#nuffsaid.

Reactor Period is now infinite.  Back to your regularly scheduled programming....

[dave in St. Louis]

I apologize for being crass, but he could also stop wasting his time and qualify watch supervisor?

The EM on USS Michigan was already qualified EWS.  I guess he could have gone for Chief Of The Watch instead...

[dave in St. Louis]

"Qualifying" and "Going through the motions" isn't the same.     If you can't stand the watch, you're not qualified.

Well, I stood the watch.

[dave in St. Louis]

If your CO let you "qualify", perhaps he also ended up in the Navy Times for other reasons.

The CO got a promotion... CSG9/CSS17.

[HydroDave63]

Besides, radiochemistry is much more difficult than reactor physics. 

It must be...I still recall the FM antenna ducttaped to the ELT's clipboard   

[co60slr]

Well, I stood the watch.

No doubt.   Your "Dad" let you "drive without a license".   By the letter of the law, you were not "qualified" unless you also carried the ET NEC.  I may have actually read that somewhere before...although it's becoming dimmer each year.  I think some people at Corporate NNPP HQ have already decided how this will work to prevent anyone from touching the reactor unsupervised with an at-sea pen-whipped qual card.  (HINT: CO's don't grant NECs).   I'm not debating what you did and where you sat underway, but I can debate nuclear regulations.

However, I'll grant you that I have not read versions of all the Regs dating back to circa 1983.   So, does your DD-214 (i.e., the master document of all things veteran official) list you as qualifying "Reactor Operator"?  We're not talking "Shutdown RO" where yes, EMs can qualify....we're talking about "RO".  If so, than congrats...you, Dave have literally pulled a rabbit out of your hat.   

So, back to the subject thread, the answer is still no (at least for the last two decades).  A CO can NOT qualify you...legally.   You can play with a qual card, you can stand the watch under instruction, you can manipulate reactivity.   As long as there's a qualified Nuclear NEC carrying ET within arm's reach of you.

Co58

[Marlin]

   Needs of the Navy, what is allowed or disallowed today may be disallowed or allowed tommorrow. I have seen exceptions to the rules for many things over the years. Research and persue if it is what you want, the only doors guaranteed to be closed are those you do not try to open. Though why not just qualify EWS you will have to stand watches on all of the control panels to qualify and will supervise the ROs while they do much of their testing (I hated hot rod functionals being three section EWS and the only first class EWS on my boat I usually got them).

[Neutron Whisperer]

It's possible for a non-ET to be the watch stander at the RPCP.  The CO just secures the RO, then stations a special watch stander.  It's in the EDM.  He'd never do it; might as well go to battleshort for gravy.

[dave in St. Louis]

No doubt.   Your "Dad" let you "drive without a license".   By the letter of the law, you were not "qualified" unless you also carried the ET NEC. 

I did have the ET NEC.  I got out with a 3363 and 3373. You assumed something not in evidence.

[dave in St. Louis]

However, I'll grant you that I have not read versions of all the Regs dating back to circa 1983.   So, does your DD-214 (i.e., the master document of all things veteran official) list you as qualifying "Reactor Operator"?  We're not talking "Shutdown RO" where yes, EMs can qualify....we're talking about "RO".  If so, than congrats...you, Dave have literally pulled a rabbit out of your hat.

I'm not the EM who qualified RO.  I'm an ET who was on-board when he did.

So, yeah... my DD-214 has me qualified RadWorker, RC Entry Watch, RT, AEA, SEO, TH, RO, EO and SRO (and maybe some more I've forgotten after 22 years).

[dave in St. Louis]

Though why not just qualify EWS you will have to stand watches on all of the control panels to qualify and will supervise the ROs while they do much of their testing (I hated hot rod functionals being three section EWS and the only first class EWS on my boat I usually got them).

As I said before, he was already qualified EWS.  Chief of the Watch would probably have been more practical, but he chose RO.  He transferred to TTF right after that anyway (and came back just before I finally left in 88).

[Marlin]

As I said before, he was already qualified EWS.  Chief of the Watch would probably have been more practical, but he chose RO.  He transferred to TTF right after that anyway (and came back just before I finally left in 88).

EWS was Chief of the Watch on my boat and the only difference between the EWS and EOOW card was couple of drills in maneuvering. Sorry I didn't know you were talking about a "Target". Never mind.  

[dave in St. Louis]

Man that's impressive,...

I think mine just listed my primary and one secondary NEC, I had others but the Navy limited it to two on the coversheet (DD-214). The other stuff was buried back in the service jacket.

Excuse me?!?  I only listed 2 NECs - 3363 (primary) and 3373 (secondary).

I don't really want to get into a pissing contest, but could you actually read what I write instead of substituting your own reality in there?  

As for the list of watches qualified, that is just a standard list of watches that an ET Nuke on a Trident would qualify.  There's nothing unusual or impressive about it at all.  In fact, it is kind of embarrassing (no EWS).

[dave in St. Louis]

EWS was Chief of the Watch on my boat and the only difference between the EWS and EOOW card was couple of drills in manuvering. Sorry I didn't know you were talking about a "Target". Never mind. 

Huh?

On my submarine, the Chief of the Watch manned the Ballast Control Panel under the supervision of the Diving Officer while the EWS was the roving Engineering Spaces Supervisor (who could, and did, switch off with the EOOW in the box) - not to be confused with the Engine Room Supervisor.

[Marlin]

Huh?

On my submarine, the Chief of the Watch manned the Ballast Control Panel under the supervision of the Diving Officer while the EWS was the roving Engineering Spaces Supervisor (who could, and did, switch off with the EOOW in the box) - not to be confused with the Engine Room Supervisor.

Sorry, I thought you meant EDPO/EWS. CoW did not make any sense in context with the thread.

[dave in St. Louis]

Sorry, I thought you meant EDPO/EWS. CoW did not make any sense in context with the thread.

Nah... He was qualified EWS/EDPO.  The next logical watch on ship for him to qualify would be CoW at the BCP (which he'd never stand).  Instead, he went for an aft watch station that he wasn't allowed to stand - RO.

[Marlin]

Nah... He was qualified EWS/EDPO.  The next logical watch on ship for him to qualify would be CoW at the BCP (which he'd never stand).  Instead, he went for an aft watch station that he wasn't allowed to stand - RO.

I would have liked to of qualified a couple of the forward watches but we were so short handed it was not permitted. I did spend a little time in sonar (a much different beast in the 70s).

[dave in St. Louis]

Sorry you think someone wants to piss in your wheaties, I've read though my post a dozen times and all I'm seeing is that I'm impressed someone took the time to list and squeeze all your junior watch stations into your DD-214.

1) I don't eat Wheaties.

2) I haven't looked at my DD-214 in years.

3) Did you read the post (by Co60slr) that I was responding to?  You know, where he asks "So, does your DD-214 (i.e., the master document of all things veteran official) list you as qualifying "Reactor Operator"?  We're not talking "Shutdown RO" where yes, EMs can qualify....we're talking about "RO".  If so, than congrats...you, Dave have literally pulled a rabbit out of your hat."  Did you read that?  Because that is what I was responding to not having looked at my DD-214 in years.  He assumes that I am the person being talked about when it should be clear to even the most casual of observers that I'm talking about someone else on my boat.  The notation that I stood RO on a submarine should have clued him in that I was an ET, but did not.  So, when he posted the above quoted bit, I threw it back in his face - including a listing of everything I'd qualified on board (and I qualified all those except EO and SRO at S8G in New York prior to getting to USS Michigan).

Anyway... Merry Christmas to you as well.

[dave in St. Louis]

I would have liked to of qualified a couple of the forward watches but we were so short handed it was not permitted. I did spend a little time in sonar (a much different beast in the 70s).

Manning (and qualification) levels were quite nice on Tridents just out of new construction.

Weren't you worried about turning into a "stonar girl"?

[Marlin]

Manning (and qualification) levels were quite nice on Tridents just out of new construction.

Weren't you worried about turning into a "stonar girl"?

Nah, I just wore my grubbies from the engine room, "eau de grease" ensured that I was not mistaken for a Navette or Sonar girl. 

[HydroDave63]

Nah, I just wore my grubbies from the engine room, "eau de grease" ensured that I was not mistaken for a Navette or Sonar girl. 

Or in Marlin's case, the shiny Star Trek insignia 

[Marlin]

Or in Marlin's case, the shiny Star Trek insignia 

That's cold Bro' COLD... (true, but still cold)


 you did the Starfleet Engineering insignia right ...hmmmmmm coincidence I think not

[Marlin]

Or in Marlin's case, the shiny Star Trek insignia 

That's cold Bro' COLD... (true, but still cold)


 you did the Starfleet Engineering insignia right ...hmmmmmm coincidence I think not

 

[co60slr]

I'm not the EM who qualified RO.  I'm an ET who was on-board when he did.

So, yeah... my DD-214 has me qualified RadWorker, RC Entry Watch, RT, AEA, SEO, TH, RO, EO and SRO (and maybe some more I've forgotten after 22 years).

So, when he posted the above quoted bit, I threw it back in his face - including a listing of everything I'd qualified on board (and I qualified all those except EO and SRO at S8G in New York prior to getting to USS Michigan).

My apologies...I guess I wasn't following your thread as closely as I should have.   Let's see if I can catch up.

What qualification above are you specifically "throwing back in my face"?  You're posting to an audience of active, inactive, retired, etc Nukes that may have done more than "6 and out" as you have.   Your "resume" is garden-variety, but...it represents TREMENDOUS hard work.   We've all done it (and much more), so what are you inferring?

The "facts entered into evidence" (as you say) so far are thus:

1.  Some buddy of yours stood RO when Navy Regs don't allow it.   (Yeah...my error for trying to decipher your bold/italic formatting.  We'll do a root cause analysis later).  While it makes for good fodder in the Navy Times, I think even they would be bored with that one.

2.  You qualified your senior in-rate watch (RO/SRO) and everything else expected of a junior petty officer.  By no means a trivial feat...for any of us.   However...

3.  You failed to qualify anything supervisory.

4.  You quit after 6 years.

5.  You've returned 22 years later to regale us of your feats and challenges while standing the box with an EM1 standing RO?

When someone tries to do a job in the Navy that the Navy doesn't want them to do (e.g., EM1 coveting an ET1's job), than the EM1 fails.  Nothing has changed from 1987 to 2010.   (Some of us may have been in before your MICHIGAN days).  Let's assume the OP to this tumultuous thread may return someday to see what he started....

EM1...go qualify EWS/EDPO. (You're dink).
EM1...go to prototype and qualify EOOW.  (If you're good enough to shim as an EM, you're good enough to supervise everyone).
EM1...get your college degree.  (If you're that good...prove it).
EM1...make chief, or come on out to commercial nuclear and make >$100K with no sea duty.  (You can't lose here...can you?)

It's really that simple.   This thread was dead before "Dave in St. Louis" regaled us with his "RC Entry Watch" resume.

Are we done here?  Or, is there other "evidence" as to why the U.S. Navy should maybe cross-train EM1's to do an ET1's job?

Lastly, after a 22 year hiatus from nuclear power, is this your function in life now "Dave in St. Louis"...to tell tales of a "friend of yours" that qualified RO as an EM1?  You offer that as some "prize", while I only read failure of your friend to have someone help him with the big picture in his nuclear career.

You omitted your phone talker qual.

[dave in St. Louis]

You're posting to an audience of active, inactive, retired, etc Nukes that may have done more than "6 and out" as you have.

You keep assuming things not in evidence.  Have I indicated how long I was in?  It wasn't "6 and out."

Anyhow, just got back from a friend's Christmas party.  Time for bed.

[HydroDave63]

Lets see...

Co60's Stream

               ____
             /        \
     O    /            \
     \l/ /               \
      l /                  \
     /\                     X

dave in St. Louis's Stream
               ____
             /        \
     O    /            \
     \l/ /               \
      l /                  \
     /\                     X

Both yellow streams look even to me, I guess that means it is a draw

[dave in St. Louis]

It'll all be good as long as we don't cross the streams...

[Preciousblue1965]

Lets see...

Co60's Stream

               ____
             /        \
     O    /            \
     \l/ /               \
      l /                  \
     /\                     X

dave in St. Louis's Stream
               ____
             /        \
     O    /            \
     \l/ /               \
      l /                  \
     /\                     X

Both yellow streams look even to me, I guess that means it is a draw

I have been copied by HydroDave.  I feel my life has just been justified.

[co60slr]

I have been copied by HydroDave.  I feel my life has just been justified.

I simply think he saw "Command Urinalysis Coordinator" on his DD-214, got excited, and found an appropriate ASCII generator.

I can only conclude that it's some innate leadership quality.

:-P

[co60slr]

What?!?!?!? They put that on DD-214's too?!?!?!

Only if your "stream" is bigger than a YN3's...apparently.

[cav12345]

what can i say ET's are just better than the others.  RO is boring anyways.  Nothing changes and you might get to shim once a watch.

[Cycoticpenguin]

what can i say ET's are just better than the others.  RO is boring anyways.  Nothing changes and you might get to shim once a watch.

yeah, those long horrible watches in air condition with nothing to do but sit and talk with people you will probably become friends with... horrible isnt it

Grass is always greener, isnt it?

I simply think he saw "Command Urinalysis Coordinator" on his DD-214, got excited, and found an appropriate ASCII generator.

I can only conclude that it's some innate leadership quality.

:-P

haha well played sir, well played.

[CitrusMan]

 I am one of the "OLD DOG" Navy Nucs. I went through Nuclear Power School as a EM1 in 1963. Instead of Electrical Operator (EO) training I chose Reactor Operator (RO) training.
When I got to the S3G (yea, I'm that old) prototype I wanted to qualify as a EO/RO operator. A sage old Chief ET advised me to drop the RO and stick with EO as he had heard that the Navy was going to make the RO qualification ET only. This I did and sure enough all the non-ET ratings that qualified as RO had to switch to ET or qualify for a EO or MO watchstation.
By the way; In 1963 we had Sonarmen, Aviation Mechanist's, Enginemen and several other ratings going through Nuc School.
I qualified at S3G first in my class, stayed for 3 years at S3G as an in-hull instructor (by the way; one of my EO trainees (an EM2) qualified as a RO/EO operators) then went to sub school and USS Tinosa (SSN 606) where I qualified for my Dolphins and made EMC(SS). I then went to a "Boomer" (SSBN 619) then to S1C protype where I qualified as Engineering Officer of the Watch. After S1c I rode the USS Halibut (SSN87) for a couple of years. The Halibut and I retired together.