Navy Nukes overmanned?

[Marlin]

Safety margin the horse may be faking it.   

[Harley Rider]

I don't buy your analogy for SRO Training. I've said dozens of times I do NOT agree with hiring SRO's directly out of the Navy. They simply for the most part do not have what it takes. The major difference between us and the Navy, outside our training programs are to the Nth degree harder, is we actually drop people from the program and those who make it through usually end up being dang fine operators.

Mike

I will let this one go, for the moment, however I'm still standing right next to all my fellow ISRO's who all made it! 7 (ex Navy instants) started and of the 7, all 7 have finished systems. Understand there is alot to do but by damn how about some support for us since so many in the industry (union) just want to see us all fail !!!! Aced my systems final today (my fellow ISRO (ex Navy) were 90 +) ,, not so much from the upgrades to SRO or the NEO to RO.  You tell me Mike do we all suck? Should I be applying to Micky D's?  I have always been impressed with your post,,,,however, you pissed me off tonight.

[JustinHEMI05]

I will let this one go, for the moment, however I'm still standing right next to all my fellow ISRO's who all made it! 7 (ex Navy instants) started and of the 7, all 7 have finished systems. Understand there is alot to do but by damn how about some support for us since so many in the industry (union) just want to see us all fail !!!! Aced my systems final today (my fellow ISRO (ex Navy) were 90 +) ,, not so much from the upgrades to SRO or the NEO to RO.  You tell me Mike do we all suck? Should I be applying to Micky D's?  I have always been impressed with your post,,,,however, you pissed me off tonight.

He didn't say we all suck. He said for the most part, they fail and statistically, he is correct. Congrats to you and your classmates, you beat the statistics.... so far. The simulator is where the men will be separated from the boys, not systems.

He also gave props to those of us that do make it through and again he was right, I am becoming a damn fine operator.

With the right attitude, the right training program and a little luck, yes a Navy nuke can make it. But, statistically, they don't do so well.

[DSO]

No it wouldn't, the bonuses have gone up 20 fold since I left the Navy and the quality of Navy Nukes has gone down far more than that.

Mike

so true!!

[DLGN25]

When my father left the Navy I asked him, "Why?" To which he replied that the Navy had changed for the worse.  When I left the Navy, one of the reasons is the Navy had changed. 

I was with an instructor who improperly removed a primary valve cap which resulted in spilled primary coolant at the sampling station.  He told me to not report it as the water was not radioactive enough to worry about.  He and I knew that was true because of our education, but it was wrong.

Then there was the dual plant scram and fill, and the scram caused by electrician trying to megger an on-line generator, or the time potoble water chemicals were put into the primary loop, and then the engine room fire caused by improper main engine filter change.

And it goes on.

The work hours underway and in port, always three section or worse.

Oh, then there were the repeated requests for RO volunteers from the surface fleet to the under manned submarine service.  No one stepped forward.

This was in 1967-1970 when there was a draft.

Nothing changes except the players.

(The one good thing is I did not have to wear the Donald Duck uniform.)

[IPREGEN]

The decline probably can also be tied to the non-Rickover era. When I was on the Billie B aka CGN-25 he was aboard for sea trials out of our Bremerton refit. Everybody acted like they had a cattle prod stuck in the dark side. Oh how I miss the days when the word put out to was to lay low and don't be seen.

[spekkio]

The decline probably can also be tied to the non-Rickover era. When I was on the Billie B aka CGN-25 he was aboard for sea trials out of our Bremerton refit. Everybody acted like they had a cattle prod stuck in the dark side. Oh how I miss the days when the word put out to was to lay low and don't be seen.

Maybe, maybe not. Are all civvy plants run by grumpy old men who loves to make everyone under his command miserable? Do your civvy bosses have the attitude that 100% of your time should be devoted to nuclear power? Granted, Rickover had high standards, but he also created many policies that made people unnecessarily miserable, and many of those policies can still be seen today.

Also, no one's answered the major question: With these new heightened standards, who is going to man today's submarines and CVN reactor departments? The Navy can't find enough qualified people as it is, and that trend isn't going to turn around until Big Navy takes a long hard look at how it does business and how its Sailors are treated. The USMC tries to give Marines a week off before deployment to get their odds and ends in order...the Navy makes Sailors work 100+ hours. You want to raise bonuses? The defense budget is stretched as it is, so good luck convincing Congress to dump more money into a submarine program that already has questionable utility in the post cold war era.

[Marlin]

Maybe, maybe not. Are all civvy plants run by grumpy old men who loves to make everyone under his command miserable? Do your civvy bosses have the attitude that 100% of your time should be devoted to nuclear power? Granted, Rickover had high standards, but he also created many policies that made people unnecessarily miserable, and many of those policies can still be seen today.

Also, no one's answered the major question: With these new heightened standards, who is going to man today's submarines and CVN reactor departments? The Navy can't find enough qualified people as it is, and that trend isn't going to turn around until Big Navy takes a long hard look at how it does business and how their Sailors are treated. You want to raise bonuses? The defense budget is stretched as it is, so good luck convincing Congress to dump more money into a submarine program that already has questionable utility in the post cold war era.

   Standards that we grumpy old men had to endure were in part due to a very real threat of washout/failure. That was when the recruiting was low in all areas of the Navy and it was easy to staff from Nuke pipeline failures. Having to staff a smaller Navy with little wiggle room to do other than recruit for existing billets makes that impractical. People are not one size fits all, those that stayed in my day did so from fear of failure in the commercial world (wish they had gotten out) and lifers ( I think the current word is diggit ). Even the diggits have families and it is hard to justify to your young bride why you are not doing the best for the little diggits. Bonuses, pro pay, housing allowances, and pay differentials for high cost of living make it possible for a career in the Navy to be a possibility. I do agree that increases in pay is unlikely and has been the last thing to increase in military budgets. As to the utility of the submarine force there is a greater call for missions now than when I was in and there are fewer submarines to perform them. The number of countries that have submarines and the number of "enemy" submarines is much greater today even if you ignore Russia. The mission of the submarine may have changed but its utility has increased with the change to SSGNs, mixed mission patforms (addition of vertical launch tubes and special forces accommodations), and litoral designs of the Virginia class fast attacks.

[adrianI]

No it wouldn't, the bonuses have gone up 20 fold since I left the Navy and the quality of Navy Nukes has gone down far more than that.

Mike

How can you say that if you haven't been in the navy for 15+ years?

[stephpatton]

hahahahahahahaha.   sigh. overmanned.  sorry I couldn't stop laughing.  They ARE bringing more of us in.  NOT overmanning, however, since a lot of senior enlisted are not re-enlisting.  They, (the Navy) have lowered standards to the point a 2.5 is a passing grade.  Oh God, don't get me started. We had a student in my class who failed 2 out of 3 subjects, and was given the opportunity to take comp!   If he would have passed, he would have been allowed to continue through the pipeline! Honestly, what are they (the Navy) thinking.  People can only understand a little over HALF of the information and still be pushed along.  Sometimes, when I read the posts of those of you who have been here at NNPTC in the past, I am really jealous.  You knew that the sailors who were there next to you at graduation were competent.  I do not and never will consider 2.5 competent by any means.  Navy knows best, but my common sense tells me lowering standards at NNPTC for students cannot be good for maintaining standards in the fleet. 

[Gamecock]

hahahahahahahaha.   sigh. overmanned.  sorry I couldn't stop laughing.  They ARE bringing more of us in.  NOT overmanning, however, since a lot of senior enlisted are not re-enlisting.  They, (the Navy) have lowered standards to the point a 2.5 is a passing grade.  Oh God, don't get me started. We had a student in my class who failed 2 out of 3 subjects, and was given the opportunity to take comp!   If he would have passed, he would have been allowed to continue through the pipeline! Honestly, what are they (the Navy) thinking.  People can only understand a little over HALF of the information and still be pushed along.  Sometimes, when I read the posts of those of you who have been here at NNPTC in the past, I am really jealous.  You knew that the sailors who were there next to you at graduation were competent.  I do not and never will consider 2.5 competent by any means.  Navy knows best, but my common sense tells me lowering standards at NNPTC for students cannot be good for maintaining standards in the fleet. 

2.5 and survive has been the mantra since I came in back in 1990.  So, in that regard, the standard has not been lowered.

You will have to learn at a 2.8 level once you get to the fleet.

[co60slr]

Sometimes, when I read the posts of those of you who have been here at NNPTC in the past, I am really jealous.  You knew that the sailors who were there next to you at graduation were competent.  I do not and never will consider 2.5 competent by any means.  Navy knows best, but my common sense tells me lowering standards at NNPTC for students cannot be good for maintaining standards in the fleet. 

Graduation from NPS does not mean "compentent to stand watch"....by ANY means.  It means you've learned enough of the basics to move on to the next phase.  (Hence, you're not a nuke yet until you leave Prototype).  I've worked with 3.50 GPA grads that made it and I had to watch them like a hawk on watch.  Likewise, a 2.50 GPA in ONE SUBJECT doesn't mean someone can't pass the comp, go on to Prototype and get that area reinforced, qualify, go to a sub and qualify, and be a great sailor.   There is also the (remote) possibility that you get to your Sub/Ship, FAIL to quality, and have the golden NEC removed.   That's the great part about being a nuke...there's always a million ways to fail from day one until retirement.

I had an instructor at NPS who looked at our anchor man (2.51) at graduation and said, "You can come work for me anytime.  You're the hardest working person in the class".   I didn't understand what he meant (and felt offended) until we all got to the Fleet.

NPS standards do NOT define standards in the Fleet.  YOU define standards, as do your shipmates, your Chiefs, your Officers, your CO.  This also I didn't understand...and it took me a long time to understand this fully.  Again, I've seen some very smart people do very dumb things (and vice versa).  I never sat in a "problem meeting" and had someone's GPA analyzed as to why they didn't use adequate "human performance tools".  In fact, some of the really smart people (or so THEY think) need to be watched extra close...they tend to think they're smarter than the collective Navy Enterprise.

Some day when you're a Chief, take that 2.51 sailor and make him/her a 3.0 sailor.  There's no leadership challenge in taking a 3.8 sailor "under your wing" and helping him/her maintain that.  This seems to be a facet of leadership lacking these days and I'll leave that causal analysis to other threads here.

[stephpatton]

I guess that all makes sense.  I guess I also realize that the guy seemed to make no attempt at passing, which made me feel no remorse and group him and anyone else 2.5 as not fit to be in the program.  Just makes me mad to see people not care/try.

[co60slr]

I guess that all makes sense.  I guess I also realize that the guy seemed to make no attempt at passing, which made me feel no remorse and group him and anyone else 2.5 as not fit to be in the program.  Just makes me mad to see people not care/try.

My post was in reference to someone giving 110%, using all resources (e.g., fellow students, instructors, study hours), and still getting 2.50.   I'll take him.  Someone who doesn't care, and through luck gets 2.50?   Darwin will win...eventually.

How about someone that gets 3.80 without much effort but doesn't want to be there either?   How does THAT person make you feel?

Someone failing out will affect someone's watch rotation...somewhere.   Whether the system (or any training program...military, collegate, elementary eduction) is a "pump" or a "filter" is a matter of perspective and leadership decision.   Filter them all out?  Who's going to relieve you?   Help the 2.49 sailor be a 2.80 sailor?   Win-win.

[still_in]

I guess that all makes sense.  I guess I also realize that the guy seemed to make no attempt at passing, which made me feel no remorse and group him and anyone else 2.5 as not fit to be in the program.  Just makes me mad to see people not care/try.

I have seen a prior enlisted TEOOW fail a test going through the third deck of NNTPC. 2.5 in power school does not dictate ability to operate.
My best friend, separate prior enlisted TEOOW, got a 2.0 on a test on the O-deck and I guarantee he is a better MM or ET or EM than you are.  Experience means a lot, more than you know right now, grades are not trivial but they do not indicate operational ability. If you can't operate you ain't S..T!

[Vorschau]

 

hahahahahahahaha.   sigh. overmanned.  sorry I couldn't stop laughing.  They ARE bringing more of us in.  NOT overmanning, however, since a lot of senior enlisted are not re-enlisting.  They, (the Navy) have lowered standards to the point a 2.5 is a passing grade.  Oh God, don't get me started. We had a student in my class who failed 2 out of 3 subjects, and was given the opportunity to take comp!   If he would have passed, he would have been allowed to continue through the pipeline! Honestly, what are they (the Navy) thinking.  People can only understand a little over HALF of the information and still be pushed along.  Sometimes, when I read the posts of those of you who have been here at NNPTC in the past, I am really jealous.  You knew that the sailors who were there next to you at graduation were competent.  I do not and never will consider 2.5 competent by any means.  Navy knows best, but my common sense tells me lowering standards at NNPTC for students cannot be good for maintaining standards in the fleet. 

My class director in E-NPS and a MMCM(SW) who proctored my last test who is a class director as well both had to get waivers to come back here because of their power school performance. The master chief had about a 2.51 in power school with a couple course failures.

In my friend's section him and one other person failed the previous exam because they struggled with math. I used to help him from time to time as much as I could. Their SLPO had them stay behind when we had a mandatory drinking and driving seminar last Friday and tutored them himself in his office. My friend in no way took it as an insult and is on the right path. What everyone is saying about grades is true from what I can see, and leadership is absolutely a large defining factor on the success (or failure) of people in this pipeline.

Yes, I think that some people shouldn't be here at times, everyone gets frustrated at times. But I still think the pump is getting the job done so far, and the people who didn't want to try and were bombing the 2.5 stay alive have already parted ways, and will continue to.

And as for the overmanned, NNPTC is now being flooded with people to the point where they are placing bunk-beds in the power school suites and making the people coming in share those tiny rooms with one closet, and the old two bed rooms that used to be for the new people will soon be a coveted asset O_O. I still have yet to get my own room. Seeing a sea of indoc's waiting by the basketball courts so that a huge truck loaded with seabags could unload was mind-boggling. Walking to the Rickover one morning I saw roughly 10 sections mustered around the circle, thinking it was a power school class mustering but in fact it was all of the new A-school classes. They have been doubling up classes which is something new to me, we didn't do that when I came in less than a year ago. The CO is putting in for budgeting for a new barracks here. We'll see if in years to come they might have better manning, but statistically it doesn't seem so from what I've read.

[adrianI]

My class director in E-NPS and a MMCM(SW) who proctored my last test who is a class director as well both had to get waivers to come back here because of their power school performance. The master chief had about a 2.51 in power school with a couple course failures.

In my friend's section him and one other person failed the previous exam because they struggled with math. I used to help him from time to time as much as I could. Their SLPO had them stay behind when we had a mandatory drinking and driving seminar last Friday and tutored them himself in his office. My friend in no way took it as an insult and is on the right path. What everyone is saying about grades is true from what I can see, and leadership is absolutely a large defining factor on the success (or failure) of people in this pipeline.

Yes, I think that some people shouldn't be here at times, everyone gets frustrated at times. But I still think the pump is getting the job done so far, and the people who didn't want to try and were bombing the 2.5 stay alive have already parted ways, and will continue to.

And as for the overmanned, NNPTC is now being flooded with people to the point where they are placing bunk-beds in the power school suites and making the people coming in share those tiny rooms with one closet, and the old two bed rooms that used to be for the new people will soon be a coveted asset O_O. I still have yet to get my own room. Seeing a sea of indoc's waiting by the basketball courts so that a huge truck loaded with seabags could unload was mind-boggling. Walking to the Rickover one morning I saw roughly 10 sections mustered around the circle, thinking it was a power school class mustering but in fact it was all of the new A-school classes. They have been doubling up classes which is something new to me, we didn't do that when I came in less than a year ago. The CO is putting in for budgeting for a new barracks here. We'll see if in years to come they might have better manning, but statistically it doesn't seem so from what I've read.

I was in the Navy for ten years and there was never a shortage of "old timers" who said how much smarter everyone use to be and how much more you use to have to know. Now that I am in civilian nuclear power I have heard the same story. I just don't believe it. The fact is that today both in civilian nuclear power and in the Navy there are far less accidents than there use to be. An "old timer" at my plant said there use to be a scram every three months or so. That doesn't sound like great operators to me. This same old timer also was the only one to freak out during a JPM which required RCIC to be isolated. Rather than following the procedure and only shutting the required valves, he just flipped every switch on the panel till the were all green, and never once even referenced the procedure. I guess my post is a little all over the place but the point I'm trying to make is that people are so quick to say how much smarter operators use to be and I just don't think the facts back that up

[adrianI]

Ok. Maybe "smarter" was a bad choice of words. I in no way meant to imply that I think I am smarter than those who came before me or anyone for that matter. When I look at all the systems in our plant and think that somebody had to invent all these things and that it all actually works together everyday I am humbled. I do not think I could do it. I just don't agree when I hear people say that "back in the day" everything was better, harder, etc.

Adrian

[adrianI]

Marssim:Great point. Also, what I didn't say was that the old timer I'm talking about is one of the most knowledgeable guys at my plant.

[JustinHEMI05]

I like to look at it like this.

20 years ago operators had to have more street smarts.

Now, an operator has to learn a lot more information to get a license than they did 20 years ago, but that is because of the industry shift away from street smarts so everything being proceduralized, if that is a word.

Adrian, we have also heard "old times" tell us stories of 8 months long ILT classes, and that there is no way they could go through an 18 month long class of today. But back then, they had to operate the plant based on a deep level of integrated plant knowledge. Today, we operate based on a deep level of procedural knowledge. Yes, there is a technical aspect we still have to have, but I would wager that it is no longer on the same level as an "old timers."

Old school and new school are connected, however. Everything we have to learn from the procedures in this 18 month long class today, is built, like Marssim said, on the experiences of the "old timers."

So is one generation of operators smarter than the other? No, I don't think so, at least not in the literal sense. I think its just a different kind of smart.

[adrianI]

+1 Justin, I agree 100% with what you said. Well put.

[Gamecock]

So is one generation of operators smarter than the other? No, I don't think so, at least not in the literal sense. I think its just a different kind of smart.

One thing I realize every day in my current job is just how "unsmart" I actually am.  I've got nothing but respect and admiration for all the "old timers" that I come in contact with.

[BK3]

Take it for what it is worth, but during INDOC we were told that Nukes are currently undermanned at the moment, and they are supposed to be increasing the number of nukes coming into the school next year. The Master Chief also said that once the Enterprise is decommisioned it should help out the situation.

[trollarc]

I was just wondering. Do people at civilian plants still have to have some level os integrated plant knowledge or is it brute force memorization of procedures? I assume some logic has to intervene somewhere as they cant make a procedure for everything right?

[War Eagle]

I was just wondering. Do people at civilian plants still have to have some level os integrated plant knowledge or is it brute force memorization of procedures? I assume some logic has to intervene somewhere as they cant make a procedure for everything right?

You have to have a better integrated knowledge level AND there are more procedures.  Commercial nukes are much more complicated than Navy plants.  Not better in my opinion, just more complicated.