Smoking Lamp is OFF (maybe)

[Curmudgeon]

Women (on sub's) and now this?  Smoking Ban in the works for Submarines

As a young ERLL on a 688i class underway sea-going war vessel (many moons ago) I turned the smoking lamp "off" (it isn't a lamp but I shut smoking down in shaft alley) due to sailors not policing their butts.   I had the Captain visit me inside of 10 minutes afterwards.  He sided with me but he highly encouraged allowing smoking again as soon as possible.

And, we thought we had it bad. 

I can see two (to three) outcomes:
Outcome 1) Abandon Ship!
Outcome 2) Mutiny on the Bounty!   
Or (outcome 3), both (i.e. all the above)!   

What do you current and ex-submariners say?

[Duchess]

The NEX is going to sell a lot more Red Man.

[crusemm]

Back around, Oh must a been 2002 or so, I had a CO who decided that when we went underway next, about 3 weeks away, there would be no smoking on board.  With about two weeks left before we went underway, he had already been overruled by the Commodore and SUBPAC.

[shehane]

bunch of weenies!!!

[JustinHEMI05]

I have always hated activist officers.

[Adam Grundleger]

Echo Duchess: the NEX had better order all the Cope and Skoal they can get.  RL Div had better get their requisitions in now for 250ml wide mouth bottles. 

[BK3]

Here at NNPTC they are saying Dec 31 they are going to get rid of smoking here, so we'll see what happens.

[SWO]

Here at NNPTC they are saying Dec 31 they are going to get rid of smoking here, so we'll see what happens.

Yowser.. not a smoker myself, but i can see that's gonna be fairly rough on the loads of people who do but can't escape for 12 hours each day!

[ETCS-RO]

I think next year will be very interesting.

1) Women on subs..not really against it but HUGE culture shock.  I think this will be more of a problem with wives than sailors.
2) Smoking ban.  I'm pretty sure the ban will include all tobacco products (that includes dip).  head medical dude has also started putting out the the initial bans on the electronic cigarettes just to head that off.  There are going to be some anger management issues.
3) Changes to the don't ask- don't tell policy.  I'll just leave that on at that.

These things individually can be easily overcome, but from the looks of things, they could all hit at about the same time.

[stormgoalie]

Somthing tells me I should be glad that I got out in 1990 Can't imagine being "haze grey and underway" with a bunch of folks trying to quit smoking all at once

[JustinHEMI05]

Yet again, great reasons I got out when I did.

[Harley Rider]

In the mid 90's the USS George Washington's CO banned all smoking on board for a 6 month deployment. As I remember it lasted the full 6 months however the ban was overturned upon returning due to several members contacting their congressional representatives. I am sure that this would probably happen again. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

[Gamecock]

In the mid 90's the USS George Washington's CO banned all smoking on board for a 6 month deployment. As I remember it lasted the full 6 months however the ban was overturned upon returning due to several members contacting their congressional representatives. I am sure that this would probably happen again. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

The proposed ban is based off medical evidence of the very much increased levels of second hand exposure due to the fact that the atmosphere is recycled.

Its not likely to be overturned if it actually goes into effect.

[longbow55]

I think it sucks that my tax dollars support people who smoke. If you want to poison yourself do it with your own money. All military installations should ban smoking, not just the Navy.

[co60slr]

About the topic:  it blows my mind a little.  Women on subs = good, smoking on subs = bad.  Not saying that either one is an absolute travesty, but wow.  I thought I would be about 30 years older before I started complaining about the world changing.

Imagine how the guys felt when they were told 20 years ago to shave their beards, which had been allowed as a norm.

I wonder if second hand smoke from the Diesel counts.   And the oil mist from the old submarine HPACs...don't even get me started.

[JustinHEMI05]

I am willing to wager that there is going to be quite a number of CO's who do not enforce the policy. After all, it really is ultimately up to them. I know of 2 who wouldn't have stopped bringing their cigars underway. It will be like anything else we have to clean up and hide when anyone above O5 comes on board.

All this is, is a political statement by those trying to achieve more stars, IMO.

[Preciousblue1965]

I am willing to wager that there is going to be quite a number of CO's who do not enforce the policy. After all, it really is ultimately up to them. I know of 2 who wouldn't have stopped bringing their cigars underway. It will be like anything else we have to clean up and hide when anyone above O5 comes on board.

All this is, is a political statement by those trying to achieve more stars, IMO.

I gotta agree with Justin here.  I truly believe that there is going to be some boats out there that don't completely adhere to the ban.  After all, once you submerge, it is pretty much the honor system as to whether smoking happens or not.  Wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't an "informal" vote as to whether or not the crew minds smoking or not.  Of course this will occur until one guy who is adamant about not smoking plays whistle blower.  I seriously doubt this will be last we hear of it.  Kinda goes along with the ban of dip on some ships, yet you find spit cups everywhere. 

[Curmudgeon]

I was a little taken back to learn crews smoked on subs; in a recycled air environment, I assumed smoking would not be allowed. Do they have designated smoking areas on subs? Any estimates on the average percentage of a crew on a sub that smoke?

TT,  that question is very dynamic.   But, under most (of my observed sub' time) it wouldn't be over 30 to 40 (%) percent of the crew.   The Navy did provide "free" classes on stopping smoking.   And, you guessed it most relapsed on patrol.

Yes, we designate smoking areas on the boat.   Unfortunately it tends to be in places, IMO, that are the most dangerous.   Like for example, next to the O₂ generator and diesel in Aux. Machinery or in Shaft Alley next to the O₂ outlets.

As to the recycled environment, we have lots of "other" things we put in the air that are equally harmful but, in reality, are just part of doing business.

This really isn't probably an accurate perspective for all boats.   Just mine.

[dave in St. Louis]

The proposed ban is based off medical evidence of the very much increased levels of second hand exposure due to the fact that the atmosphere is recycled.

Its not likely to be overturned if it actually goes into effect.

As opposed to the deleterious effects of the lube oil, diesel and MEA mist in a submarine's atmosphere?

[JustinHEMI05]

As opposed to the deleterious effects of the lube oil, diesel and MEA mist in a submarine's atmosphere?

That is another good point I have been thinking about. I would like to see the study on the rest of the sub's atmosphere, but that won't happen because that isn't in support of the mission.

Again I say, "they" couldn't care less about the health effects of second hand smoke, this is only a political statement by some (an) activist officer(s), and "they" have something to wave in the air to get it done (this study).

I would be willing to place another bet though, that the other atmospheric contaminants on a submarine are much more harmful than some second hand smoke. But, I am not a doctor.

[Preciousblue1965]

As opposed to the deleterious effects of the lube oil, diesel and MEA mist in a submarine's atmosphere?

I don't know what the rules are for painting on a sub underway, but I know on a carrier we painted all the time.  Even though it was officially against the rules to "paint for beautification", it never stopped us from going through gallons of paint when the ORSE team was inbound.  The lube oil and diesel fumes are mission critical, but I wonder if they are going to address other atmosphere contaminants such as paint, cleaning supplies, etc. 

I personally think that there is going to be some issues come of this.  I would say at least a few mastings for sneaking a puff or two and a LOT of looking the other way with regards to some other ships rules.

[co60slr]

I would be willing to place another bet though, that the other atmospheric contaminants on a submarine are much more harmful than some second hand smoke. But, I am not a doctor.

Here's a distant reference:  http://veterans.senate.gov/upload/10_08_09.rtf
Search on "nuclear", then "diesel".   

Interesting language being used in reference to "nuclear workers" and other discussions on the affected of "diesel exhaust".

Co60

[Marlin]

I don't know what the rules are for painting on a sub underway, but I know on a carrier we painted all the time.  Even though it was officially against the rules to "paint for beautification", it never stopped us from going through gallons of paint when the ORSE team was inbound.  The lube oil and diesel fumes are mission critical, but I wonder if they are going to address other atmosphere contaminants such as paint, cleaning supplies, etc.  

I personally think that there is going to be some issues come of this.  I would say at least a few mastings for sneaking a puff or two and a LOT of looking the other way with regards to some other ships rules.

We did not paint when under way, even aerosol deodorant was banned from use (it was the 70s, aerosol spray cans weren't a great ozone killer yet). However after one shipyard visit we were sent on deployment right out of the drydock with fresh paint on much of the engineroom systems and piping. When we lit off the engineering spaces the fumes had everyone nauseous with red eyes for several days while underway. We ventilated as often as possible but we were sent on ops off the eastern seaboard and were limited on time at periscope depth to snorkel.

[JustinHEMI05]

I don't know what the rules are for painting on a sub underway, but I know on a carrier we painted all the time.  Even though it was officially against the rules to "paint for beautification", it never stopped us from going through gallons of paint when the ORSE team was inbound.  The lube oil and diesel fumes are mission critical, but I wonder if they are going to address other atmosphere contaminants such as paint, cleaning supplies, etc. 

I personally think that there is going to be some issues come of this.  I would say at least a few mastings for sneaking a puff or two and a LOT of looking the other way with regards to some other ships rules.

We stripped and painted bilges on my boat underway once. It was a throat burning experience. Oh, we also had to pile up trash once. That was pleasant. Oh, we also blew sans inboard a couple of times. The list goes on and on. Compared to all the other hazards on the boat, 2nd hand smoke is the least of my worries. I would rather deal with 2nd hand smoke than some guy who can't go without smoking anyway.

But a little birdie whispered in my ear that there is something more behind this that can't be said, and that my assumption about it being just a political move is wrong.

So I guess we just wait and see.

[HydroDave63]

I'm still thinkin it's another Adm. Mullet bad hairdo and Star Trek philosophy .... 

[JustinHEMI05]

That would lead me to belive that trash is not normally piled up..soooo..I guess it's discharged at some point underway..

So many things I've never thought about with Subs..Where do they smoke? What do they do with the trash?

Now I wonder in a spy v. spy world, do governments try to collect "sub trash" in hopes of learning something about the other..dumpster diving in international waters..TMZ government edition..

Trash is compacted into these little round cans, about oh... 7-8 inches in diameter by say.. 3 feet long...using a 3000 pound hydraulic press. It is then weighed down, and shot torpedo style out the bottom of the boat to the bottom of the sea. When we were "on station" for a length of time, we couldn't "shoot" trash. So, we used the engineroom as a dump. I literally stood watch with these oozing cans as my new deck plates.

Smoking areas vary by boat. Ours was way back where the shaft leaves the ship, AKA shaft alley. Which is FAR away from the general population, and in the engineroom.

[retired nuke]

Trash is compacted into these little round cans, about oh... 7-8 inches in diameter by say.. 3 feet long...using a 3000 pound hydraulic press. It is then weighed down, and shot torpedo style out the bottom of the boat to the bottom of the sea. When we were "on station" for a length of time, we couldn't "shoot" trash. So, we used the engineroom as a dump. I literally stood watch with these oozing cans as my new deck plates.

Smoking areas vary by boat. Ours was way back where the shaft leaves the ship, AKA shaft alley. Which is FAR away from the general population, and in the engineroom.

Ahhh, the TDU - got in trouble once playing shuffleboard on the mess decks with TDU weights....

Used to "see folks" smoke one-hitters going thru the torpedo rm - vent suction on the forward end, I believe  . Couldn't smoke in the galley, but could on the mess decks... kept an ashtray at the door...

Long long ago....

[Harley Rider]

The proposed ban is based off medical evidence of the very much increased levels of second hand exposure due to the fact that the atmosphere is recycled.

Its not likely to be overturned if it actually goes into effect.

I have no doubt that this rule will stick I am just saying that I think you will find many contacting their Representatives and I am curious to see how that game plays out. I will tell you that I, for one, don't buy into this second hand smoke thing but that's me. The problem is going to be during the initial implementation of this regulation. Withdrawals from nicotine can have a powerful effect on the body and mind. I once had an on watch RO stab himself in the leg with his knife because he could not get a smoke break. Crazy I know however very true. I quit smoking ten years ago. It wasn't that hard for me and I have never looked back. I was lucky that it did not affect me like it does some others.

[crusemm]

Actually it reminds me of "Hey, Shipwreck"

Man, I love that show.  My favorites are the Sailor-English translators.  For anyone who has not seen both seasons of it, you gotta check it out.  Doesn't matter if you are a Sailor or not.  That S%^t is funny  .  Anyways, back on topic.  I used to smoke several years ago.  I gave it up and decided to get fat and fail PRT's rather than pollute my lungs when I did not have to.  However, on the ship, I figured that there was so much other crap floating through the air that cigarette smoke was the least of my worries.  I'm pretty sure that in the course of 20 years, the ship's I was on violated almost all of the atmosphere limits in one way or another.  We painted underway, had freon leaks, fires, CO2 scrubbers broke, burners broke, all kinds of other issues.  The last ship I was on I think was the worst.  When the engineroom started up, the air filled with an oil haze that you could choke on.  In that kind of environment, a little second hand smoke was a welcome change.

[Adam Grundleger]

I think 2nd hand smoke is just a convenient excuse.  Atmospheres were so bad on both the boats I was on (including in shipyard) that there's no way a legitimate case can be made.

MEA (active ingredient in Easy-Off oven cleaner) stink wouldn't come off me or my clothes for weeks.  Oil mist precipitating everywhere (especially in the electric motor housings from the EM field.)  Continuous alarms from atmosphere systems on low O₂ and high CO₂.  Refrigerant leaks.  Diesel exhaust. Painting underway without respirators.  Anybody know what comes off of O₂ candles besides oxygen?  How about some of the crap in the lab?  No fume hoods.

The worst was welders in PHNSY carbon arc cutting in ERUL w/o sufficient ventilation.  Air sample filters came out black.  Sneezed black for two days. 

Yeah, second hand smoke.  Sure.  Like the precips, spot coolers and the oil mist don't trap all of it.  Looks like I made the right decision in not re-enlisting.   

[Harley Rider]

Most of these areas (Police Stations, Patrol Cars, Federal Buildings, State owned/operated Buildings/Vehicles and many county/city areas too) are already smoke free. And yes, if our tax dollars not only pay for the buidlings/vehicles and medical care for said smokers then we should have a say.

My tax dollars pay for a number of social programs that I have no say on,,,abortions butcher and murder children everyday that I indirectly pay for and have no say on,,,I will soon pay health care insurance for individuals that have never worked a day in their life and I have no say on that either.  Smokers are the least of my concerns,,,give me a break.

[Higgins]

I got out a little while ago as a 6-and-out, never smoked, but never had a problem with those that did if they kept the smoking areas clean. On my boat we had 2 smoking areas, one in Shaft alley near the R-114s. The other in aft part of Machinery room.

Since people live and work on-board these submarines for months at a time with almost a century of history to backup the claims that 2nd hand smoke is no more dangerous that any of the other atmospheric contaminants. Also, if the Navy goes forward with spending millions to train and modify current submarines to get women to serve on-board, can't they spend a little on the air purification to make this a moot point? I don't see any practical reason why women serving on-board would have greater value that minimizing the health risk from the "potential" bad side effects of 2nd-hand smoke, oil haze, diesel fumes, and other atmosphere contaminants.

This whole push to eliminate smoking, tattoos, any bad public image just takes away the small things that provide a stress relief to overworked and underpaid government employees that risk their lives for their country. It's like telling a firefighter that he/she is not allowed to smoke at home. Sure people have the right to live and work in a smoke free environment, but don't smokers have the right to smoke? Banning it altogether isn't an option.

[crusemm]

At the right time..I bet a pack of smokes will fetch some good coin; it's not like you can stop at the Quick-E-Mart and grab a pack.  

When I was a smoker, I would usually give away smokes (to good friends or suitable hot-runners) when underways got unexpectedly extended.  I routinely carried approx 3 months of smokes on board during WESTPACs, so I almost always had enough.  I learned to carry excessively extra amounts of necessities after a 3 week op got extended to 2 1/2 month EASTPAC on no notice.  God that sucked, but it's also where I learned what it meant to be Fast Attack Tough and the wonderful phrase "Semper Gumby"

[Neutron_Herder]

Maybe the Navy should come up with a "Tobacco Deglamorization Program". 

The alcohol deglam stuff worked pretty well...   

[JDLong]

Oil fumes, diesel exhaust, ozone, MEA, O2 candles..........smoking on Submarines is healthier than breathing. Pathetic. Looks like I'll be inventing and testing my smoke reclamation machine.

[LaFeet]

 I recall personnel smoking on watch in manuevering...... I hated those days.  But I made a lot of money off  of cigarettes at the tail end of our extended runs.  When the CO started designating smoking areas that helped, except during field days..... took care of that by dumping a bag of butts on the COB's rack (chain smoker).

[Typewriters]

I got out in '93; on the 641 you could smoke in Machinery 2 and the Engine Room at all times.  "Smoking window" in Maneuvering was the first ten minutes of each hour.  I should add that when tied up you weren't supposed to smoke except topside, but it happened a lot.  Lots of RC Div meetings and what not were punctuated by the butt can either in the forward end of AMR2 or else back on the workbench.

I was very interested to read about the various smoking policies on various boats and ships in this string.  One friend who came to us from a 726-class boat was amazed we were allowed to smoke on board- he'd had no smoking on his "Usedtofish."

After one patrol, a friend of mine was about to toss a carton of smokes and so was I, and his wife said "What are you two doing?" We said "you don't want these, unless you love methyl amine and diesel and .. sweaty men.." or some such smart-aleckness and she said "We aren't wasting that money" to her husband.  First one of those she lit up made her last meal reappear.  Of course, the smokes went right in the garbage.  I recall getting most smokes back then, like Richlands or Lucky filter 100's for about $14 a carton at the exchange.

I had been under the impression these years since that none of the newer boats, like 688's or 726's allowed smoking at all- guess I was wrong!

[ELT1]

The 721 spent way too long in  Pearl Harbor NSY, with layers and layers of sea foam green and machinery grey, with a bunch of high temp silver to accent it all.  When we finally went  out for sea trials (after 22 months) all that paint started to cure and every APD in the ER went off and stayed over the limit for about 3 weeks.  We began 10 m³ PAS and those filters were so black from oil and paint fumes I was amazed.  Thats the crap we really breathe!  From that day on, I never gave a second thought to lighting up.

There are also several men whose lives were saved by the calming effect of a smoke or four.  If not for them, I would have killed people a few times.  Wow, bad memories, but it's too bad politics have to change everything for new kinder, gentler, green, liberal ideas.

Did I mention how fortunate I was not to have to serve Ob$*a as Commander-In-Chief?  My heart goes out to the military serving right now during this regime.

[Already Gone]

On my three boats, smoking was permitted almost everywhere.  The only exceptions were: the wardroom and crews mess during meals, the head for a brief time on the 704 boat, and the port side of the Control Room on the 591 boat (the XO was a reformed smoker who limited his bitching to that part of the boat only).
MEA never affected the taste of a cigarette until you went topside.  Then you noticed it (and the semell of boat all over you).

For those who wish to indulge, I highly recommend the electronic cigs.  No smoke.  No tar. No flame.  No ashes.  No butts.  You can vary the nicotine level from zero to full, and they come in dozens of flavors.  Anyone who wants to know more can PM me, and I'll give you a link.

[LaFeet]

 I recall when the smoking lamp got "positioned" only in Shaft alley.  While the air (if you can call it that) was a bit nicer up in Coner land, it was hobbile back aft.  The Skipper finally posted set times to coincide with message traffic to allow us to ventihlate.  That seemed to help out.   

 I also remember the air quality being tested for carcenogens...... and the test results were not that good. 

 All in all I survived my submarine tours.  Hope all those serving today have more of the good times that I had and less of the bad.

Thank you all for your service - Pablo

[nukemech701]

I am currently stationed aboard a submarine based out here in Norfolk.  The smoking ban has been in effect for 3 months and it has been interesting.  Some people have given up smoking underway and just smoked in port, use of nicotine patches/gum have gone up, or people just used chewing tobacco/snus to get by.  Traffic to the smoke pad in the ER has dried up and therefore less stuff dropped by those people going back and forth or in the way of maintenance or such.  They were like lemmings, only know one way in or out and if there was maintenance or something going on, they were just thru the area and they don't remember, so I had to stop what I was doing and get out of the way or just yell at them to go around the other way.   The chain smokers were cranky and interesting to watch.  Some of them actually did more work (slightly) while others, who knows.  When on the surface, people were going up to the bridge and smoking the last one before going below decks.

Bob

[Dave Warren]

You are the property of the U.S. Government. You are to do what you are directed to do. Anything that you do to detract from those directives is considered insubordination.

When I was in the Marine Corps, we had 3 guys who liked to ride bulls on the weekends. They warned them once and the second time, they each received disciplinary action.

2 weeks later, these guys decided to get pissed up and fell asleep in the sun and burnt their bodies to a crisp. More disciplinary action.

Yes, I realize that was in the early 80's and times change, but when U Sign the Contract, that means that you have a new Daddy. The man in the Oval Office now decides whether you live or die and tells you how to live your life. No smoking, no drinking, no fatty foods, whatever.

[JustinHEMI05]

Sad.

[MacGyver]

You are the property of the U.S. Government. You are to do what you are directed to do. Anything that you do to detract from those directives is considered insubordination.

When I was in the Marine Corps, we had 3 guys who liked to ride bulls on the weekends. They warned them once and the second time, they each received disciplinary action.

2 weeks later, these guys decided to get pissed up and fell asleep in the sun and burnt their bodies to a crisp. More disciplinary action.

Yes, I realize that was in the early 80's and times change, but when U Sign the Contract, that means that you have a new Daddy. The man in the Oval Office now decides whether you live or die and tells you how to live your life. No smoking, no drinking, no fatty foods, whatever.

Everybody knows that anyone can quit smoking just like you quit riding a bull.  Works every time, quit smoking or will make you ride this "thar" bull!   

[HydroDave63]

Yes, I realize that was in the early 80's and times change, but when U Sign the Contract, that means that you have a new Daddy. The man in the Oval Office now decides whether you live or die and tells you how to live your life.

I always knew deep down inside DW was a Reagan fan

[NerdMagic]

I just happened upon this forum and thread, and my first thought was -- holy CRAP, they still allow smoking on submarines?

I served on the 722 from 90-93.   The smoking lamp was put out in 91, I think.   When I reported in mid-1990 you could smoke everywhere.  Then there was a change of command and the old CO (who smoked) was replaced.  The new CO was one CDR Kirkland Donald, who some of you may be somewhat  familiar with.   Then-CDR Donald was my CO from late 90 until some point in 93.

Anyway under Donald first smoking was disallowed everywhere but on the steps behind maneuvering, and then it was banned entirely. 

Then all of the smokers dipped.  Everyone kept a little bottle in their shirt pockets to spit in.  At one point I was the only nuke MM out of 20 that didn't dip.   

But eventually dipping was banned by either the ENG or the CO because of people using the ERLL funnels as spittoons.  Particularly that big rectangular funnel on the starboard side of the MSW bay that I no longer remember what was for other than being the M-div'ers' urinal.   But of course that couldn't really be enforced.

But anyway, having served on a boat during a smoking ban, I disagree with the idea that smoking doesn't affect the atmosphere.    I'm not saying the atmosphere underway rivals Glacier National Park even without smoking, but cigarette smoke does clearly make it worse.  Before the smoking ban, the ventilation system filters would be black each month (or however often the PMS cycle was, I think E-division replaced them monthly).   After the ban, they were so clean they didn't even need replacing.    My understanding was that electrical maintenance on the motor-generators was also considerably cleaner after the smoking ban.

Also, right after the ban the mess cook chief would bribe the ERLL's with food to stand lookout for him while he smoked in that alley behind the port R114.   But once one person's cigarette smoke wafted into the ventilation system everyone back aft knew someone was smoking, and he had to quit for fear of getting caught.   Plus it wasn't exactly free of suspicion for the MSC to be back aft....  though we did store coffee and flour in PLO bay so he had a pretext sometimes.

So anyway, that's what I recall about being on a boat with no smoking almost two decades ago.

Man, I haven't thought about this crap in a decade or more.   Ahhhh, memories....     

[Cycoticpenguin]

Government needs to get their priorities straight. I was chipping hexavalent chromium primer paint, painting with god knows what epoxy chemicals, cleaning with nitric acid, covered head to toe with 24508 and lube oil, constantly burned, breathing plant chemicals.... I can go on all day.

God forbid we have a little 2nd hand smoke -.-

Guess theres no "PPE" for smoke