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Offline Rennhack

Moderator Changes
« on: Jul 18, 2010, 02:54 »
There has been a lot of talk about over-moderation and favoritism, and censorship.  Due to these complaints we have tried several things to try to correct the situation.  Our latest approach is to throw out the baby with the bath water.  We removed pretty much all the moderators.  We have 4 moderators left, and they are only able to moderate in a few areas.  We have 2 moderators (Crusemm & Gamecock ) for the navy area, a new moderator (mostlyharmless ) that we are trying out in the new safety area that he requested, and a moderator (ruth13) for the nuke community section.

The only people left that can delete anything in any area are Tom and I.  We don’t usually delete anything.  If we do, it typically was a reported post that we evaluated and decided that for the greater good should be deleted.

Now that we have removed all of the moderators because of people complaining that they think the moderators are unfairly treating them, Tom is going to be very overburdened.  You may find that fewer messages will be edited by moderators to help them comply with rules, and fewer users will be PM’d, asking them to fix their messages to remain compliant with the rules.  When there are 6 hours of work to do, and 30 min of time to do it…. Something has to get cut.

We will make every effort to minimize the use of the delete button, and hope that the users self-moderate themselves. 

Offline RDTroja

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Re: Moderator Changes
« Reply #1 on: Jul 19, 2010, 12:41 »
There has been a lot of talk about over-moderation and favoritism, and censorship.  Due to these complaints we have tried several things to try to correct the situation.  Our latest approach is to throw out the baby with the bath water.  We removed pretty much all the moderators.  We have 4 moderators left, and they are only able to moderate in a few areas.  We have 2 moderators (Crusemm & Gamecock ) for the navy area, a new moderator (mostlyharmless ) that we are trying out in the new safety area that he requested, and a moderator (ruth13) for the nuke community section.

The only people left that can delete anything in any area are Tom and I.  We don’t usually delete anything.  If we do, it typically was a reported post that we evaluated and decided that for the greater good should be deleted.

Now that we have removed all of the moderators because of people complaining that they think the moderators are unfairly treating them, Tom is going to be very overburdened.  You may find that fewer messages will be edited by moderators to help them comply with rules, and fewer users will be PM’d, asking them to fix their messages to remain compliant with the rules.  When there are 6 hours of work to do, and 30 min of time to do it…. Something has to get cut.

We will make every effort to minimize the use of the delete button, and hope that the users self-moderate themselves. 


Anarchy and Optimism, in one post! This should be interesting.
"I won't eat anything that has intelligent life, but I'd gladly eat a network executive or a politician."

                                  -Marty Feldman

"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to understand that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
                                  -Ronald Reagan

I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it.

                                  - Voltaire

Offline RDTroja

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Re: Moderator Changes
« Reply #2 on: Jul 19, 2010, 02:16 »
After catching up on the reading I missed over the weekend, I wanted to throw in some personal opinion here (big surprise, huh?)

As I have said on several occasions, this is your site, Mike and you should do with it as you please, including gutting it of the things that made it interesting... which is where I think you are heading. Again, just an opinion from someone that has watched (and, at least early on, helped) the site grow from not much to something fairly significant in its field. Just like anything else in life, a few vocal whiners have pretty much destroyed something that was interesting, fun and mostly constructive. I am a bit amazed and a little more than a bit saddened that it has come to this point. Personally, I would have told the complainers to pack sand and go start their own site. Many others before them that did not care for how things were done here took it upon themselves to find their support/entertainment elsewhere... they should just be told to do the same.

You put a lot of your own blood sweat and tears into this site and you let some whiny little crybabies come along and ruin things for you (based on your tone and actions) and most everyone else. You have tried to satisfy everyone and the inevitable result is that you have satisfied no one, least of all yourself. I am sure you need to get some fresh perspective on this and some time to think about it, but please use the opportunity to consider first and foremost, who you want to make happy with this site. You can't please everyone, so first please yourself. I know it sounds trite, but it really is true. You are the one that had the idea to put together a place that would help people in 'the business' with a resource that pulled together information that was out there but hard to get to. You succeeded beyond what I would have thought likely. On top of that you gave us a place that we could express ideas (sometimes controversial) and compare thoughts and sometimes even fight over sore spots.... and it worked pretty well, considering the possibilities.

People that were interested stayed and contributed (or just watched) and those that were not happy here left and that, too was fine. People were allowed to get out of the site what they wanted to, and that was excellent. And then the usurpers came and tried to mold the site to the way they want it. If they thought they didn't get the respect, or platform or attention they wanted, well, they were going to cry until they got it. Not so fine. Like a bunch of Kindergartners, they were just going to whine until they got control of the toy... and you just gave it to them.

This is not a scolding, it is a plea for you to regain control of your site. I really have a lot of respect for the things you have done with this site and it is yours to do as you wish... but please just tell people that don't like what you are doing to go build their own sandbox and play in it to their hearts' content. Consider making that rule 0 (if you have read any Asimov Robot novels you will understand.) Illigitimi non carborundum. (Don't let the bastards wear you down. No, it isn't real Latin.)

Thanks for letting me express my opinion whether you heed my advice or not.
« Last Edit: Jul 19, 2010, 02:18 by RDTroja »
"I won't eat anything that has intelligent life, but I'd gladly eat a network executive or a politician."

                                  -Marty Feldman

"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to understand that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
                                  -Ronald Reagan

I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it.

                                  - Voltaire

Offline RDTroja

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Re: Moderator Changes
« Reply #3 on: Jul 19, 2010, 02:43 »
A gold mine of metaphor;









I am glad someone caught it. I had each of those songs in mind as I was writing...
"I won't eat anything that has intelligent life, but I'd gladly eat a network executive or a politician."

                                  -Marty Feldman

"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to understand that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
                                  -Ronald Reagan

I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it.

                                  - Voltaire

Offline Marlin

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Re: Moderator Changes
« Reply #4 on: Jul 19, 2010, 02:59 »
A tag team match? Is anyone on Mike's side?

I am a little disenchanted with some of the changes as well, but the level of effort to keep this site up I doubt any of us would have done it.

Mike don't expect me to complain any less but;

THANX FOR ALL YOU DO

Offline Old HP

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Re: Moderator Changes
« Reply #5 on: Jul 19, 2010, 03:01 »
Mike,

Whoa what happened. No more comments from Troy, I am really concerned that his head might explode from trying to contain ALL that information he has accumulated over his short working life.  I did pick on him occasionally, however I thought he meant well most of the time.

I have actually worked with Roger Troja many times and as we have fought many of the same battles over the years we seem to agree on many of those issues that seam to keep reappearing on this site.

There are a lot of other moderators, that have shared their time, concerns and opinions with our little nuclear society, and it it sad to see them kicked to the curb.

I would like to thank Mike for his efforts over the years in producing and directing Nukeworker.
I would also like to thank the moderators for their efforts in helping Nukeworker become what it is today.

In closing I would like to quote Bob Hope and say " Thanks for the memories".


                                                           just another OLD HP

Offline Frankie Love

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Re: Moderator Changes
« Reply #6 on: Jul 19, 2010, 03:08 »
"Nevermind the Bollocs!!!"

We liked it as it was. Don't change things now they are just starting to get good...

Offline let-it-ride

Re: Moderator Changes
« Reply #7 on: Jul 19, 2010, 03:17 »
Over the years I have mostly read and watched what was going on. There was always some funny comments and just a few barbs. Sometimes I put my 2 cents in. Mostly tried to have humor.
The site got better for people that wanted to learn and become apart of the nuclear world. Such as all the wonderful things as taking practice tests. The list is many.
Things did start to change. There were more barbs, sarcasim, and then just insults. Then the Gold Membership came about so if you wanted to say anything you wanted, you had a place to do it without having the general population and people that think Nukeworker is a benefit to their careers having to have these things on site.
Now a big portion is dedicated to the Navy. Perfect. I have almost never read anything there because I am not in the Navy or am looking to have questions answered from Navy people.
Then came "Moderators". Things started to get out of hand with personal attacks and criticisms. It continued to go down from there. Many of the "Moderators" had an ax to grind against some people and took steps to silence them.
This has happened when one of the "Moderators" was one of the biggest that made attacks, both personal and professional against people. He always used his position to promote his agenda and put down anyone that had a different opinion. (he was doing most of this on his own company time too, go figure)
As far as listening to a few people saying the complaints are from 'whiners', think of this as The Silent Majority. It is fortunate that some have 'whined'. How many people just walked away from this site and got news somewhere else.
The country and nuclear world has benefited from NukeWorker. It would be a sad day if the site went away because some want to be able to say, I don't care what you have to say, my opinion is more important and if you do not agree, you are a 'whiner'

NOW on a personal note. Most of the biggest people that argue and were 'monitors. were people that have been in the business for many years. They now have a cushy job where they get paid for just showing up. They say "Don't you know who I am??" I have been around longer than you, so just be quiet.  I say to them, "What have you done lately?" I don't care who you are or who you THINK you are. SO WHAT if you have been around for many years. No one owes you anything. In fact it is time for you to step down so the new generation can get things done better. I alway hear from the "experienced" techs, That is how we always did it or this is how we do it at this or that plant.
Am I whining?? I have been in the business since 1987. And as one of the "Monitors" said once to me, follow me with a camera and you will see how it is done.
I followed you with a camera on NukeWorker and it is time for you to GO AWAY.
Peace

Offline RDTroja

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Re: Moderator Changes
« Reply #8 on: Jul 19, 2010, 03:31 »
A tag team match? Is anyone on Mike's side?

I am a little disenchanted with some of the changes as well, but the level of effort to keep this site up I doubt any of us would have done it.

Mike don't expect me to complain any less but;

THANX FOR ALL YOU DO

If I gave the appearance that I am not on Mike's side, I sincerely apologize... the exact opposite is true. I am so much on his side that I think he needs to reassess what he has done to accommodate those that have caused him to take the actions he has. This site was built to help others, but that does not mean they are allowed to badger him into submission. I have been among the first and most frequent to acknowledge what he has done and to thank him and I have not changed my opinion on that at all. I was one of the first contributors, before there was a Gold Membership, because I had faith in what he was doing and wanted him to succeed at it. I just want to encourage him to return to what was working quite well until a certain few decided they had the right to force a change. If they think they are being censored, fine. Tell them to go find somewhere else where they think they will be treated better. Don't like who smites who? Fine. Tell them to start their own web site and see how popular they become. Fewer headaches and less stress come out of saying no to people that deserve it. If Mike thinks I deserve a 'no' to my advice I am perfectly fine with that.

My post to Mike was intended to be encouragement from someone that supports how things were before he felt compelled to take actions to appease a vocal petulant minority, not to tell him he did something wrong.
« Last Edit: Jul 19, 2010, 03:35 by RDTroja »
"I won't eat anything that has intelligent life, but I'd gladly eat a network executive or a politician."

                                  -Marty Feldman

"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to understand that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
                                  -Ronald Reagan

I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it.

                                  - Voltaire

Offline let-it-ride

Re: Moderator Changes
« Reply #9 on: Jul 19, 2010, 03:39 »
Hey JDTROJA, you say that if people don't like how this site USED to be, go start your own.
That also applies to YOU. Time to move on Old Man. You are in the PAST. You are holding progress back. I don't care how long you have been posting or been here. YOU are the WHINER when you don't get your way. GO away old man, the Times are achanging.   8)

Offline HydroDave63

Re: Moderator Changes
« Reply #10 on: Jul 19, 2010, 03:42 »
Hey JDTROJA, you say that if people don't like how this site USED to be, go start your own.
That also applies to YOU. Time to move on Old Man. You are in the PAST. You are holding progress back. I don't care how long you have been posting or been here. YOU are the WHINER when you don't get your way. GO away old man, the Times are achanging.   8)

How about time to follow Forum rules #1 & #4?
« Last Edit: Jul 19, 2010, 03:46 by HydroDave63 »

Offline Marlin

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Re: Moderator Changes
« Reply #11 on: Jul 19, 2010, 03:47 »
If I gave the appearance that I am not on Mike's side, I sincerely apologize... the exact opposite is true.

I'm just sucking up to Mike, maybe he will have a Nukeworker Texas Hold'um Tournment and invite us up to Michigan to play.  ;)

mostlyharmless

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Re: Moderator Changes
« Reply #12 on: Jul 19, 2010, 03:58 »
Mow let me get this straight, if I were to say something with Jesus,Muhammad,Bill Clinton, Hitler,Stalin, Bush(2),Nancy Pellosi, Kennedy(all of them),Obama, baby seal killing,whale killing,democrat,republican,or any race ,creed,color or hue and throw in Dave Warren too, and dont forget Newt and the tea party,in the sentence, oh and spell a few word wrong, someone might be offended,complain, I get moderated,take my ball and go home. Is that it?
Rennhack this is a wonderfull site. Its also your site. You make it how you want it.
If the people that know,and the people that think they know, stop posting and Dave Warren stops, Troja stops, if everyone with a strong opinion stops then you lose the soul of the site.
We have areas to post the stuff not everyone should see, the read at your own risk areas.
We got areas to train and study, weve even got a place for photos.We got choice.
To stick with the song trend there is a Nilson,son of Smilson song that comes to mind.I believe its called breaking my heart. I bet Marssim knows what I'm talking about.
Anyway, I can tell a few of you really did pull the rods on the sun.  I didnt, I did the eight or ninth ISI.
Less moderation is best. But post with a little thought. Besides, you may get confused reading one of your old posts and think"what idiot wrote that?"
And sence I brought up idiots, remember:everybody,at some time or another on some level or another is an idiot.-Scott Adams of Dillbert fame.

Offline RDTroja

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Re: Moderator Changes
« Reply #13 on: Jul 19, 2010, 04:10 »
Hey JDTROJA, you say that if people don't like how this site USED to be, go start your own.
That also applies to YOU. Time to move on Old Man. You are in the PAST. You are holding progress back. I don't care how long you have been posting or been here. YOU are the WHINER when you don't get your way. GO away old man, the Times are achanging.   8)

If you are going to take the time to insult someone you should at least get the name right. Or maybe you think there is humor somewhere in there for some odd reason.

I have not complained about one thing here. If you put yourself into the category of whiners that I don't care much for, that is up to you. I have no idea who it is that has been hounding Mike and that caused him to do what he has and I really could not care less. If it was you then you should be very proud of yourself for the great social change you have caused. I am sure you consider it time well spent... probably the most productive time you will ever have. Good for you.

My contributions to this site or Nuclear Power in general is not a part of this debate, nor should it be. I know that I have not contributed the hate and bile that you apparently like to spew at any target you choose... but that is entirely your option, as long as Mike and Tom think it is appropriate. That is the whole point here. It isn't what I want or what you want. It is what Mike wants, and he has said that he was brought to his current decisions because of people (apparently like you) that caused him enough grief to do what he did. I just think that it should also be his choice to tell all of the haters and classless idiots that come just to complain to go elsewhere for their entertainment... if that is what they think is entertaining.

It really is disingenuous to slam people the way you do and finish with a nice 'Peace' at the end of your posts. Someone might call it hypocrisy. I am sure you don't care or that you will just spew some more venom in my direction for daring to point that out. Have fun. With the moderators gone, people like you will have free reign. Since you have declared yourself a veteran of the industry all the way back to 1987, that makes you at least 41 years old, probably a bit older (although you post more like a petulant teenager) so telling me to step aside for the younger generation is a bit hypocritical, too. Misquoting Dylan doesn't really fit the younger generation motif either... if they know who he is they probably have enough respect for him to quote him properly.

So, slam away if it makes you feel bigger, or better or just plain pertinent. I have already spent more energy on you than you are worth. Lots more.
"I won't eat anything that has intelligent life, but I'd gladly eat a network executive or a politician."

                                  -Marty Feldman

"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to understand that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
                                  -Ronald Reagan

I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it.

                                  - Voltaire

Offline RDTroja

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Re: Moderator Changes
« Reply #14 on: Jul 19, 2010, 04:11 »
I'm just sucking up to Mike, maybe he will have a Nukeworker Texas Hold'um Tournment and invite us up to Michigan to play.  ;)

Deal me in.
"I won't eat anything that has intelligent life, but I'd gladly eat a network executive or a politician."

                                  -Marty Feldman

"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to understand that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
                                  -Ronald Reagan

I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it.

                                  - Voltaire

Offline RDTroja

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Re: Moderator Changes
« Reply #15 on: Jul 19, 2010, 04:17 »
To stick with the song trend there is a Nilson,son of Smilson song that comes to mind.I believe its called breaking my heart. I bet Marssim knows what I'm talking about.

You mean "You're breaking my heart, you're tearin' it apart so F**K You!" ?

Is that the one? Harry Nilsson, "Son of Schmilsson" -- 1972
"I won't eat anything that has intelligent life, but I'd gladly eat a network executive or a politician."

                                  -Marty Feldman

"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to understand that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
                                  -Ronald Reagan

I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it.

                                  - Voltaire

Offline RDTroja

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Re: Moderator Changes
« Reply #16 on: Jul 19, 2010, 04:23 »
HEY!?!  can we type that in an open forum?,... :-\

You mean "Schmilsson"?
"I won't eat anything that has intelligent life, but I'd gladly eat a network executive or a politician."

                                  -Marty Feldman

"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to understand that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
                                  -Ronald Reagan

I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it.

                                  - Voltaire

MacGyver

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Re: Moderator Changes
« Reply #17 on: Jul 19, 2010, 05:37 »

Anarchy and Optimism, in one post! This should be interesting.


Is this what you're talking about?

Quote

« Last Edit: Apr 25, 2011, 07:41 by MacGyver »

Fermi2

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Re: Moderator Changes
« Reply #18 on: Jul 19, 2010, 09:37 »
As one of the most moderated members here I think Mike missed the boat here. Once you start relaxing the rules in your house, it is no longer your house. I was just fine with the Moderators and the Karma. I'm not here as an active member much but in my opinion I wish Mike would bring both back. I never once saw censorship here just good common sense moderation.

Mike

Offline Already Gone

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Re: Moderator Changes
« Reply #19 on: Jul 20, 2010, 12:40 »
Mike,

Whoa what happened. No more comments from Troy, I am really concerned that his head might explode from trying to contain ALL that information he has accumulated over his short working life.  I did pick on him occasionally, however I thought he meant well most of the time.

I'm just waiting to see what Mike comes up with, and how it turns out.  Who knows?  Maybe it will improve the site. No way to be sure until it happens or doesn't.  I say let's give it time.

I wish it had been a short career until now.  30 years so far and no end in sight.  Sometimes it feels like I started last week.  Sometimes it feels like two lifetimes ago.
"To be content with little is hard; to be content with much, impossible." - Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach

 


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