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RAD-GHOST

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The Last Outage!
« on: Jul 28, 2004, 08:31 »
Love the recent posting for techs, just a couple of opportunities left, get them while they last!  This past summer, brought an unusual demand for techs in the world of DOE & D&D.  Looks like about 200 to 300 crossed the tracks, out of the outage scene.  Hopefully, for the ones who remain in the outage circuit, your worth will grow, along with your paychecks. 

It only took a decade, but the Commercials Industries Economic Plan is working, Techs are realizing the road trips just aren't worth the effort, or the poor compensation!  It is coming to the point where techs don't have to mass and discuse the situation, I think every tech has made there own decision that it just isn't worth it any more!  In the past, Techs would work the outages and figure out what to do in their down time.  Today, techs figure out their main source of income and fit an outage into that schedule.  Looks like some have other plans right now! 

I don't know how many techs have looked at the real expensed associated with the short outages, but there intense.  Your wage clock doesn't start until you show up at the door!  Two days drive to a job and two days back, equates to 4 days of lost wages and Per Diem!  Add hotel rooms and meals and your looking at a big out of pocket expense!  The pennies per mile, are for auto expenses, not living expenses and wages!  Then you hit one of these sites that puts a cap on it, like $125.00!  Who the hell can live, one day on the road, for $125.00 ?  I believe gas is running around $1.90 a gallon right now! 

I believe a bonus round in coming in the near future.  You can take it if you want, but you are just kicking yourself in the butt for the future.  The utilities and contract companies just use this as a temporary fix to keep wages frozen.  They'll give you an extra grand to show up this outage, but it won't be there next outage!  Bonus's have a lot of conditions attached and usually sit in the companies bank for many months before you see them!  An increase in wages is a solid win, the bonus thing is still lip service and a way to keep wages low!  Wages are guaranteed by law, bonus's are not! 

To the utilities, there are still a lot of techs sitting in the wings, but you only get what you pay for!  The tighter your wallet, the tighter your staffing!  You can have all the staffing contracts you want, but I think you will find most techs work for themselves!  Your outage schedules are also a joke and a game that is erroding the appeal of your sites.  As most techs know, outages are a gamble.  Last season, techs were getting cancilation notices while driving to a site, NICE!  Even when they show up, they get bombed with the rumors of budget cuts and layoffs in the first couple of days!  It seems like a pretty simple situation, when you wind up half staffed on your next outage, just tell the VP, you burnt them last outage, why would they come back this outage?  Then ask him to weight the cost of a citation vs the extra cost of an adaquate staff!  In todays industry, techs are needed more than ever.  Most sites are staffing the trades with 40 to 60% new to nukes!  That's a lot of baby sitting!  It's just a matter of time before the problem is realized, usually after it is to late!  No problem, the VP can rub his neck and write the check, either pay it now, or pay it later, your option!

I think in another week or two, techs will become a rare commodity!  It's all about $!

Have a Great Day, RG 

Beta_effect

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #1 on: Jul 28, 2004, 01:09 »
I am so suprised that RATS have not organized nationally. The last info I had from a few years ago was that there were only ~2000 techs carrying the load for the entire outage scene. What a powerful position to be in. Have there been any attempts in the past to get such an organization in place?

Offline Camella Black

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #2 on: Jul 28, 2004, 03:44 »
Beta_effect,

Hold on to your hat cause you just opened a can of worms  :). A lot of techs out there got burned during the last big attempt to organize so its caused some bad memories.

I am not a tech, but the spouse, sister, and daughter of techs and I have long called for some type of organization like the AMA, AARP or the like, not union but something. I have given up hope of this every happening, maybe the next generation will see it.

Offline Nuclear NASCAR

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #3 on: Jul 28, 2004, 04:22 »
I think I smell an educational thread about IBEW Local 1000 coming out of the woodwork.  Do a search of the site with IBEW as the keyword.  That should bring up some interesting answers.  Personal opinion only, I think that the last fiasco may have ruined chances of organizing for a long time.  It sounds to me as though it was only done to up the number of dues paying members.  That's not the reason to organize, it's to improve conditions for the effected group.  For it to be successful there has to be consensus.  Things usually have to get bad for that to happen and it does appear on it's way there.
"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge."

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Beta_effect

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #4 on: Jul 28, 2004, 05:38 »
Well no doubt that this could be a can of worms. The last thing the utilities want to see is the last bastion of rad sponges organize-they have enough problems dealing with their own in-house HPs. Still though, the small dwindling supply of people swing the power pendulum in favor of roadies.

Perhaps the real power may lie with the RAT companies themselves-they most certainly will be in a position to make positive changes should they decide to do so-they are after all the ones negotiating the contracts with the utilities.

Offline Camella Black

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #5 on: Jul 28, 2004, 06:06 »
I just want to make it clear that my previous message was not intended as a call to action, but rather the rantings of a nukewife who has long seen the need for some type of change. Although I would support whatever my husband would chose to do, the last time I proclaimed any support of a union it was for IBOL (international brotherhood of luders) back in Miami (only kidding).


What I meant by a "can of worms" was that numerous road techs walked out back in the 80's in an attempt to be recongnized and many regreted because of the concequences following the strike and I have seen some posts in the past that told the story of how they feel about attempting it again.
« Last Edit: Jul 28, 2004, 06:08 by Camella Black »

JassenB

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #6 on: Jul 28, 2004, 11:53 »
I'm speaking as somebody just now entering the commercial nuclear power industry, but I look at my age group (I'm 26) as the future of this industry (scary, eh?).

I am very politically active in my home town, and a major issue is, of course, employment. My city was hit hard with all the tech layoffs, since Hewlett-Packard and a couple other large tech firms were the major employers in our city.

People talk about the need for a living wage around here, and many of the labor unions are being very vocal in the current state elections process.

I have nothing against unions, and I've personally seen the benefit of having a bargaining unit. In a lot of situations, the union  has saved the workers from getting screwed.

Even though I don't know much about the walkout in the 80's, I honestly couldn't imagine the same thing happening today. Based entirely on this ongoing discussion I've read here for the past year, it seems as though right now (especially if their are only 2,000 road techs and one large, major contractor left) that the individual holds the greatest power. A Sr HP with years of experience and a good track record seems to be able to command a good asking price, and from what I've seen there appear to be more jobs than techs (if you include DOE and other work, not just outages). And all the work is for Seniors since a lot of places don't want to "waste" the money training a NUB (I can't get a junior slot to save my life, and I've been looking for almost a year).

Unfortunately, there also aren't many people coming into the field. The vast majority of Navy nukes coming out want nothing to do with nuclear power, and I would guess even less so for ELT's. :)

It would be nice if their was some sort of organization that could represent HP's. I think it would be a good thing, if for nothing else than to have an apprenticeship program like we had when I was an electrician.

[/soapbox]

-Jassen

RAD-GHOST

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #7 on: Jul 29, 2004, 08:02 »
   I see the Union topic surfacing out of the dust.  The attempt in 90 wasn't necessarily a failure, like many assume.  Those in the industry at the time, know exactly how much control the techs had over the companies.  You know the ones who don't exist anymore!  The company that managed to stay on top simply had a better business plan and agreed to talk, only talk, to the union.  Actually the venue that sparked the union effort, is what crushed the union effort.  Poor wage packages left many techs with no reserve to sit it out!  Today that venue has changed!  Many techs are finally coming to the realization that there is life after nuke!  Fourteen years ago many of us had families to provide for, now that the kids are running on their own, many of us need less to maintain our standards of living!  The utilities have also assisted in this plan, short outages, short staff, and shared resources, just to mention a few.  I believe everybody has to agree that the one sided commitments on the techs, by the contract companies and utilities, is poor at best!  I believe it is called Employment at will!  You have to love the initial staffing speeches on proffessionalism, as they are telling you that your six week stay, will probably only last a couple of weeks!  If you attempt to leave early, your the bad guy, even one day early!  Amazing how they can push you out the door in a second, but any attempt to leave on your part is a breech of some secret contract!

   During the 1990 strike, I was employed with a utility and in case you weren't aware of the situation, it took a major toll on the site!  It cost millions in materials, millions in manhours and 30 extra days of no turbine turning!  Of course in those days, an extra million, or two, didn't seem to matter.  Today, if they spend an extra buck, heads will roll!  At the time we had a set of procedures, but they simply held the office door open for about three months!  The only situation that pulled the utilities butt out of the ringer, was the fact that the staff, house and contractor trades, had many years of power plant experience and could perform their duties with only Health Physics oversight, baby sitters not required!  That isn't the case today, the majority of the outage staff, at most outages, haven't a clue past GET!

   Union, Organization, or whatever you want to call it, is a great idea.  But you don't have to think on a scale of every tech in the industry.  Many sites, in all sectors of the industry, have groups that could control their own destiny.  In todays world, any group that took a stand, wouldn't have much resistance.  Obviously their isn't a line of backup techs waiting at the door, Especially Site Qualified Techs!  The staff managers, at these sites, actually believe they control the situation.  Funny, but I believe a small portion of the staff could prove different!  In the past, fear of retribution was an issue, but not today, the HP storage locker has run dry!  Outages are running with as little as 20 Senior Contract Techs.  That's about all it would take to control the situation!  Remember, it's their contract, not yours!  They are required to staff, your not required to stay!

   The call for work is another interesting aspect of the business.  I believe there is a lot of calling going on right now!  In fact, I know there is a lot of calling going on right now!  Commit, or Sit?  You choice!  The companies are still selling the Facade, of to many techs, to little work!  Then they sell you the back to back assignments, which usually puts you on the bench for a while, UNPAID!  For years I have watched the response, for the lack of techs on this site.  When it gets down to the wire, the wallet always opened!  Major bonus's in Com Ed, Cook and others!  Commiting in June, for a September assignment, may not be in your best interest!  It works for the contract companies, but keeps you on the bottom end of the food chain.  Simple phrases like, I'll think about it, I'll get back to you, or I'm not interested now, works well!  Making a decision to sit for a while, may mean you have to take your second or third choice, but the money would probably be more appealing!  If you really want to see how much the contract companies appreciate you, call them back and tell them you changed your mind on an assignment! 

   You will never work in this business again!  Your on probation for a year!  Anyone ever heard those?  They don't exist anymore!  I don't believe any customer, would appreciate knowing their manpower need wasn't met because of a recruiters ego, or company policy!  Think about it, their business exists because of Techs!  No Techs, No Business!  Cheap words at best! 

   Today, there are actually more contract companies in existance, then there was in 1990!  Although most are small, most have positions.  Everybody hears about the big guy with the most contract, some close to home.  It's a matter of choice, but there are many good money making opportunities available, if your willing to travel, most long term!  They also have excellent benefit and wage packages, wages higher than outage money!  In fact, as most of you probably know, your best offers exist, when your working for the other guy!  After all, if your already working for a company, why would they offer you anything else?

   Although it's been talked about in the past, you actually can pick the money you want to work for today!  You don't have to buy the $20.00/$80.00 from the contract companies, just tell them what your available for and sit back.  After enough techs sit back, there will be no other option then to talk!  They can keep crunching the dollars, but they can't force you to work for them!  In todays market, with the contract companies push for Professional Technicians, I believe a professional wage should be paid.  I believe a target wage of around $35.00 an hour, for a ten year Senior, isn't off the wall!  Per Diem should be at the  Government Standards!  I haven't seen any reason or explaination why it should be lower!  After all these years, I still haven't seen that HP Discount card!


Have a Better Day Today, RG

doctormoo

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #8 on: Jul 29, 2004, 12:31 »
just an idea here

what if one of the small staffing companies could be owned and operated by rp techs and deconners
and then as the company would grow and all the techs resume's were all together
then the company could give some competition to barlett and the others
there was one i believe was starting up a while back and then seem to fade away

klsas

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #9 on: Jul 29, 2004, 09:33 »
The biggest problem is not Bartlett, but the fact that the utilities are not required to take the lowest bids for staffing techs. It is to the utilities benefit to have only one or two contract companies as it now stands. Starting a new company won't change anything. The IBEW that is already in the plants has to start figuring roadtechs into the equation before any real change is going to take place. With only 700 - 800 techs working commercial now, I doubt seriously if IBEW would be willing to stand up for roadtechs. (not enough money) Just my opinion.

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #10 on: Jul 30, 2004, 01:37 »
Verry well stated.  There is great wisdon in your words.

One minor correction, there are around 800 techs that travel the country doing outages.  The rest work long term/DOE assignments.  So the margin is even tighter today than it was five years ago.

I remember a few people on this site talking about forming an organization called NAHPT - The National Association of Health Physics Technicians. (Perhaps we could change that to National Association of Radiological Safety Professionals - NARSP... I like that better.)

Having a nationwide professional group for techs would be a huge benefit. A lot of trade organizations with sufficient membership are able to offer discounted health and life insurance, etc. Also, instead of having to hunt far and wide for where you can get a 8-hr Hazmat refresher done, or find someplace giving the NFE exam, it would be pretty darn handy to have a member-supported national society to help network. When ya think about it, we have a lot of folks right here on NukeWorker that could make such an organization work; tons of experienced techs, some recruiters that actually know what we do for a living, degreed professionals at facilities across the US and other interesting parts of the world, and (probably most importantly) a living breathing website to network. Sure beats a xeroxed quarterly newsletter, or an expensive membership to a glossy mag written by and for corporate general office folks.

The main idea here is, in order to get the increased bucks and respect that we want from the employers/clients, we have to offer a better product. As more techs obtained more training certification, the employers would see the value in dealing with an organization that promotes and assists the professional development of motivated rad safety professionals.  If we become content to think "there are fewer and fewer techs left, they need us worse than we need them", consider this: there are plenty of English-speaking health physics techs with 4 year degrees and years of plant experience throughout the world. If a large utility or bodyshop really wanted to go to the trouble, they could cost-justify bringing in foreign techs on H1-B visas to work a lot cheaper.

We've got plenty of bright minds out here, does anyone else think this would work (or not)?
« Last Edit: Mar 06, 2006, 10:26 by Rennhack »

RAD-GHOST

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #11 on: Jul 30, 2004, 08:30 »
I like where this topic is going.  Lots of good input!  As Hydrodave63 stated, the larger the group, the larger the benefits.  In today world, the Internet provides the solution to the problems encountered year ago....COMMUNICATIONS!  I can't think of a better time to discuss this situation, then now!  I would prefer the discussion start on the educational and qualification aspects of the industry, inclusive of all levels.  Their are lots of good people out there, with lots of good information, lets apply it!

Thanks, RG   

JassenB

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #12 on: Jul 30, 2004, 03:29 »
I take all this discussion to imply that techs don't feel that the Health Physics Society could adequately represent them?

The HPS mission statement begins with: "The Society is a professional organization whose mission is excellence in the science and practice of radiation safety. Society activities include encouraging research in radiation science, developing standards, and disseminating radiation safety information. Society members are involved in understanding, evaluating, and controlling the potential risks from radiation relative to the benefits."

I don't see why techs couldn't forge stronger alliances with the HPS, especially since it's already a very well established organization. And you don't have to be a CHP to join -- they welcome technicians, also.

-Jassen

RAD-GHOST

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #13 on: Jul 30, 2004, 07:38 »
JassenB, a point well taken and I believe you will find a population of the techs are members, percentage unknown!  I, myself am not, I have never seen, read, or heard of the HPS mission statement, until today!  No one has ever offered any information on the organization and I have never pursued any.  This may very well be a hot topic for the HPS organization and I would be open to any information available. 

A formal organization, such as the HPS, may very well be a venue to draw attention to this issue.  I know of many high ranking individual who have addressed their concern for the shrinking population of Qualified Health Physics Technicians, but nobody has managed to place a solution on the table!  The industry of today, has somehow managed to placed Technicians in class of their own.  Usually at the level of basic trade laborer, equal in respect and compensation.  Besides Plant Operators, who at any site, has to meet and maintain the volume of similiar qualification?  One step further than that, who, on any site, has a larger responsibility for interpreting and enforcing station procedures, 24/7 ?  I'm not blowing my ego out of proportion, I've been in the Nuclear industry for many years, in a multitude of positions and that's the real deal! 

I believe the Technicians have an advantage to control their destiny at this time.  Not as disgruntled individuals, but as the proffessionals the up ranks have been lecturing on for years.  I don't think it would be hard for the Technicians to accept the status, but would anyone else?  Could it ever be conceived and accepted by the utilities, or other industries involved in the nuclear field?

It's about money?  YES!  It is also about establishing a realistic agenda for technicians to pursue their career, while providing for their family and themselves!  It's also about Education, Benefits, Structure, Advancement Opportunities and the list goes on!  I believe their are many Technicians who feel the same way, but they don't have the time to pursue the aforementioned, since they have to run around the country gathering peanuts! 

Again, I would be more than appreciative of any information you, or the Health Physics Society could supply.  Actually I would really like to see a thread dedicated to the HPS on this site, the more you show, the more we know!

How about it Mike, or the Moderators, Possible, or Not?

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #14 on: Jul 31, 2004, 02:09 »
anyhow....back on the ranch...

Reading through the HPS site, and the membership dues structure, reminds me of why I let my American Nuclear Society membership lapse long ago. Great articles, informative , yet more a 30,000 ft view of things rather than what we need. Perhaps something more along the lines of the PROS for Operators, at nucpros.com, would work for our needs. I found the discussions on recent NRC rulemaking issues interesting as well. Being proactive and interactive with the regulators and client employers would be much better for our credibility and development, vs. only having a format to vent and be disgruntled. Remember, our future body-shops and employers read this board as well (perhaps with disdain at times). If we can use candid chats to get our ducks in a row and form something useful, that's great. If we just want to bag on other posters and rehash the 1990 event, threads like this one will quickly end up dying a slow death in a Donors Only section.

Some questions I'd like to propose are:

1. Are the current 4,698 members of NukeWorker.com able/willing to form or at least develop the charter for an *new* organization to accomplish the objectives outlines in this and other threads?

2. If not, is there a currently existing organization that would be suitable and capable of meeting stated needs from a coherent group of NukeWorkers ?

3. Define the scope of what "we" want from such an organization. That would also need to include what "we" would be willing to contribute (dues, articles, committees, training, etc.) to make such an organization functional.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: Jul 31, 2004, 02:09 by HydroDave63 »

Offline Llama

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #15 on: Aug 01, 2004, 07:30 »
Hey SloGo we called ourselves the HP Co-op. We bargained as a group and did back to back outages at Calvert Cliffs

RAD-GHOST

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #16 on: Aug 01, 2004, 10:31 »
Lots of good points and feedback!

Beer Court, a point well made and many may agree, but since I have never met the man, face to face, eye to eye, I'll hold a reserve on the validity of his statements. I've found people on the web to be quite different in person!  One thing we can all agree on, many management types, over the years, have displayed a less than acceptable posture towards Technicians.  I've heard techs called everything from idiots to rocks!  Another thing we can agree upon, they actually can't maintain a program without Techs!  That may be a bold statement and an ego rush, but thats the reality of the situation.  I can remember the years gone by, when managers dumped techs in a heart beat and filled the position with another tech waiting in the wings.  Today, nobody is in the wings!  I fully staffed outage, on opening day, is rare!  One thing HP management doesn't want to take to the penthouse, is the excuse that something can't be done, due to a short staffed!

Hydrodave63, Since no organization has come forward to represent us a this point, I don't believe one exists that has a grasp on the situation.  A lot of people talk about the problem, but nobody manages to offer a solution!  In fact, most of the people who complain about the shortage of Techs, are the ones pushing Techs out of the field!  About once every eighteen to twenty four months, they have a concern. Other than that, they try to calculate how to staff with fewer technicians next time!  The venue would have to be drafted by techs.  The target population should be meter swinging qualified, or qualifying individuals.  This would include anybody actively pursuing a career in the field mechanics of the industry.  This would range from Decon Techs, up to and possibly including Rad Engineers.  Obviously management would have to be exluded.  Drawing the upper tier line may be a problem, but not impossible.

The primary mission, I would want to see, is EDUCATION!  I think everyone will agree, that seems to be the largest concern in the industry today.  Everybody wants trained and qualified technicians, yet they offer no support for obtaining, or maintaining the credentials.  I know many techs who have a huge array of private and military training, but that doesn't seem to count, no pedigree!  I believe establishing an experience to education ratio would be a good start.  After all, that is the basis for the ANSI Standards.  Of course the program would expand past the 3.1 standard, recognized as the upper level in the industry today.  Once a program is started and recognized, I believe all things will balance out across the board, including fair compensation.  Some sites have already adopted this concept with the Advanced Senior Status, seven plus years.     

Other things I would consider, a Senior to WORKING Junior ratio.  Not control point Tech, but field Techs!  Uniformed wages, based on experience and education.  Not hourly rates adjusted by superficial bonus's, local vs outsiders and various perks!  Customer and contract company support for obtaining certifications and continous training.  If a company, or utility, is offering a training course, why not invite a couple of Technicians to fill the empty seats?  I believe that would show a real concern for preserving the industry.  Today a few tid bits are available for the NRRPT, but that doesn't address the introduction of fresh bodies to the industry.

Sounds like an impossible venue, not really!  For years the utilities and contract companies have managed the Technician population, by keeping them in the dark.  It isn't the fact that they can't say, it is the fact that they won't say!  Anybody ever try to contact a fellow Technician, via a contract company?  It wont happen, their advantage is to keep everybody as distant as possible, making deals to appeal on an individual bases.  Everybody want to make a bigger buck, especially in todays six month work year!  The situation is temporary at best!  All technicians have to realize as the population decreases, so do your advancement opportunities.  Somebody has to do the work!  For every Technician who is promoted, that is one less tech available to fill the demand.  With no experience Tech pool to draw from, guess what?  Where you are today, is probably the same place you will be in five years!

In recent times, I have contacted and been contacted, by various companies for assignments.  Has anybody else experienced the recent trend of the unknowledgable representatives?  Maybe it's my ego, but these people don't have a clue as to what I do!  Most of them decide your fate based on education, or what they consider proffessional, non-proffessional status.  That status may also condems you to no possible advancement opportunity and a poor wage package, usually for the term of your employment!  You have to appreciate the growing trend of proffessionals in the industry, most of them put themselves far above the field Techs, even though they couldn't possible do the job and don't meet the minimum qualification!  They think they can, but I've seen many short circuit at the attempt!

In todays summation, this topic should not be taken as a venue for anything other than improving the future environment of Health Physics Technicians.  Many techs have experience less then ideal situations in the past, but that shouldn't lead the course of your input.  Plain and simple, what would the many technicians consider fair as a trade standard and how would they support it?

I've beat the keys long enough, Have a Great One!  RG   
« Last Edit: Aug 01, 2004, 10:44 by RAD-GHOST »

Offline darkmatter

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #17 on: Aug 01, 2004, 10:50 »
I remember a few people on this site talking about forming an organization called NAHPT - The National Association of Health Physics Technicians. (Perhaps we could change that to National Association of Radiological Safety Professionals - NARSP... I like that better.)

Perhaps a Coop Association Services Handy Radiation Professionals. C.A.S.H.R.P.
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http://darkmatter.nukeworker.net.istemp.com  this will get you there, but I can't update it anymore. Maybe nukeworker will host personal sites eventully

ramdog_1

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #18 on: Aug 01, 2004, 01:02 »
good god come on!
do not for get there are those who swing  meters then get a shovel as will ! in the real world , hp have to work and do sureveys on some d &d jobs.
what will you call them , they are the back bone of the country as will. god bless all of you.

RAD-GHOST

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #19 on: Aug 02, 2004, 05:54 »
Ramdog_1

Yes, you would be included!  It is a little hard to define the overall list of who would be included, it would be a lengthy one!  Many assume the commercial industry is the majority holder of technician, I believe the DOE sites actually possess the higher numbers.  From there, the industry stretches out to Universities, Medical Industry, Research Labs, and a hundred other nooks and cranies.

I mentioned Decon Techs as an example of an entry level qualifier.  Nothing demeaning, but this is considered an entry level opportunity to the technician ranks, there are hundreds more!  In my prior posting I stated Meter Swinging Qualified, or Qualifying Technicians.  That is inclusive to anybody who is pursuing a career in the field, based on hands on experience and education. 

What would you call the organization?

I Like:

RPT-IGA

Radiological Protection Technician - Independant Group Association

Simple and to the point!

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #20 on: Aug 02, 2004, 07:36 »

I Like:

RPT-IGA

Radiological Protection Technician - Independant Group Association

Simple and to the point!


IGA kinda harkens back to the Independent Grocers Association out west "...would you like paper or plastic" ;)

All kidding aside, RCT-IGA would be a catchy title. We'd want something that mentions independent, as that the association isn't a subsidiary of some utility or body shop. Association or Society are good terms to use, because this isn't a union. Now, once we have a group of several hundred technicians in an association that encourages professional standards and conduct from techs and utilities alike, and is a conduit for training and improvement....that would provide a position of strength for bargaining.

Offline Already Gone

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #21 on: Aug 02, 2004, 10:35 »
I don't mean to put too fine a point on it Dave, but I'm reminded of that old saw, "If it walks like a duck and quacks... it's a duck"
Anyway, the thing you have described here is whatchamightcall a UNION.  You can call it an Association, an Assemblage, The Alan parson's Project, or the John Butcher Axis.  But an organization of tradepersons intended for the pupose of collective bargaining is a Union no matter how you slice it.  If this proposed organization doesn't have bargaining as it's primary purpose, it is redundant.  We already have tha NRRPT, HPS, ANS, and probably a couple of other groups to do all the other stuff and throw in a clambake too.  They don't do bargaining, though.  This is why they are not Unions.
Employers are not the only ones who are bound by the NLRA.  If anyone wants to do what you propose this organization will do, they had better be aware that they are forming a Union.
Not that there is anything inherently good or bad about a Union.  The only thing that I object to is the obfuscation.  You have to call it what it is.
"To be content with little is hard; to be content with much, impossible." - Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach

DainJer

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #22 on: Aug 02, 2004, 11:10 »
I guess you could make it a fraternal organization....like the freemasons... 8)

Face the facts gentleman, your discussing the very same thing thousands of other trades have discussed over the last 100+ years and no matter how you dice it, slice it, or skew it to make it look different, your screaming for representation and standardized training...I.E. UNION.

I do agree however, that no Union alive as of today is properly understanding or equipped to deal with the unique industry.

It will take a company with vision and money behind it, that is willing to 30% of it's profit margin back to the workers. Thats one of the bottom lines of Union companies...the owners have less of a chance of becoming multi-billionaires because he has to pay a wage and benefits worthy of the individuals.

I think given the current industry, the companies hiring are staying within what has been set as the "norm". It will take major balls to break the mold, and while there are still ones without the aforementioned, standing in-line to accept any job, at any price...any hold-out for better is null and void.

And people wonder why Unions have used strong arm tactics over the years :)

RAD-GHOST

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #23 on: Aug 03, 2004, 08:35 »
I agree, I am not interested in competing with any of the staffing companies, either!  I only know of about six individual I would follow into that battle and I'm not one of them! 

Union by another name?  Although some may interpride the information that way, that is not the intent!  Their are thousands of organization in this country, that support personal interests and independant missions, outside of a collective barganing venue.  In our industry alone, the organizations Beercourt mentioned, fall into this catagory.  They provide information for the improvement of the industry as a whole and all are voluntery  They do not force you into their organization and they do not go to the barganing table and establish wages and benefits, yet they do influence both!  I don't believe anybody can argue that a NRRPT Qualified Technician receive and extra buck, or two, per hour!  They are simply a recognized organization, that's the point, RECOGNITION!

In todays industry, techs have only three recognized options for improving their overall compensation packages, 18.1, 3.1 and NRRPT!  Besides that, it's the luck of the draw!  Pursuing a degree will take you higher, Big Maybe!  What I would like to see, is an across the board schedule of Benefits and Compensation, vs Industrial Experience and Education.  Also to include the Industries support for Qualifications, Certifications and Training!  Every site I go to, maintains the same attitude towards the manpower shortage, but none of them have offered any responce to the solution!   

Proffessional Recognition!  I'm repeating myself, but that is what the many companies are preaching!  Lets give it to them and see how they run with it!  They all want Qualified, Certified and Trained Technicians showing up at their door, yet they will not offer anything above the standard compensation packages to get them.  The standard recruiter questions of today are, NEU current, CORE current, RWII current, Hazwhopper Current and the list goes on!  Besides a few tid bits from some companies, to support a couple of programs, they want you to pay for your Quals!  Your time and your dime!  I know, it's only a couple of bucks, but a couple here and a couple there, starts to add up!  More Quals and less compensation is a very poor situation. 

The Collective Barganing Issue?  That's the interesting aspect of this topic, you don't need it!  Just a mear hand full of Techs can have a big voice!  No matter who tries to preach what, the technician population is in the negative numbers with no reserve!  In the past, a call for techs would be answered in a matter of hours.  Usually the controlling factor would be, making the selections out of a pile of resumes.  Today, most coordinators stand by the FAX waiting for any movement at all!  I've sat back and watch the scramble for techs and the many phone calls asking if their FAX, or email was working!  I have also seen the expression on the customers faces, when they ask for ten Techs and get two resumes, a week later!  They hate this one, but I always have the same responce, this is what your industry has been promoting for the last decade, it just finally caught up to you!  Their expression, PRICELESS!

Lots of feedback, for and against, it's all good!  The Devils advocate perspective is also welcomed, but if you bring a problem to the board, please offer some type of solution.  You may have lived something, many may never have thought about!

Have a Great One, RG!

JassenB

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #24 on: Aug 03, 2004, 09:57 »
If anybody is interested, I found an interesting article on "How To Unionize," courtesy of the Hawai'i AFL-CIO:

http://www.hawaflcio.org/unionize.html

Looks like in order to unionize, techs would have to pick the largest contract companies, organize the employees (30% of techs have to sign the petition), and drag them in front of the NLRB for a vote.

Just pointing out resources....

-Jassen

DainJer

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #25 on: Aug 03, 2004, 12:00 »
My point is...It's a great idea to call for solidarity without collective bargaining, or "legal" representation. If it happens, you'll be doing something I'm fairly certain that hasn't been successful in the 100+ years labor has attempted to pull together and use the strength of many.

Is anyone in this business ready to hold out for a year to prove their solidarity? Are you ready to pass by decent paying jobs for the good of your fellow techs?

I do not think so...IMHO

You will always have a select few who will scrape the bottom of any job barrel they walk past. As long as there are enough bottom scrapers to "short" staff outages...the companies will continue on, watching your bank accounts deplete...waiting on you to come back....for even less than you left for.

I think creating your own organization, with the backing of another major organization is the only way you will see the kind of pull needed to turn heads.

By creating your own organization...you can write by-laws and bargain for yourself, you can set up training and certifications, but without giving this beast a name...noone will recognize it.

http://www.webshells.com/ocaw/txts/doc9939.htm

a little blast from the past...

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #26 on: Aug 03, 2004, 04:11 »
I want to be very careful and clear in saying that I am not proposing any unionization effort.  At the same time, I'm not trying to discourage it either.  But here's where I see this discussion going;
1) A large number of people see that changes need to be made.
2) Just about everyone recognizes that nothing will change without a group effort.
3) We have never been able to accomplish group change voluntarily, and without formal organization.
4) We are mostly a conservative bunch, and that makes us Union-phobic.
5) Our trade is highly technical, vitally important, and drastically short of people, yet we are among the lowest paid of all the trades on site.

With all this in mind, I'd like to offer my opinion on the situation.  As a life-long Republican, I have philosophical differences with most Unions.  I think that has put me at a disadvantage because it has kept me from learning enough about unions to make the right decision.  Because of my poitical leanings, I have been cheating myself out of the ability to make the best informed decision for the good of my family and our financial security.  I have only allowed myself to hear the negative, and ignored any positive aspects of union membership. 
From what I have learned recently, I can't say that the decision either way is a slam dunk.  For all the bad things I have heard and believed about unions, there are an equal number of good things.  Unions have training programs, negotiated pay scales, medical benefits, pensions, and a lot more.  I don't have any of those things.

Now, I hear the argument that we can get better money and treatment by showing that we are more professional and better trained.  But, where has that gotten those of us who are?  My NRRPT has gotten me a buck and a half per hour at most.  Not all sites pay that, and those who do would give it to me anyway because I have over seven years as a Senior Tech.  Ironically, the only site that has paid me that kick without giving it to the 7 year seniors, is also the only site that doesn't care that I have been inactive for the past eleven years.
The fact that I don't back out once I confirm, and don't drag up without approval doesn't get me anything either.  I still get the same pay and other consideration as the slug who no-showed them last time.
We have to face the fact that our compensation - either as a group or individually - has nothing to do with our value to the companies.  It is strictly market based.  As long as someone is willing to work for $20 & $80, we all have to.  Sitting out a season won't help except in the short term.  A site may kick up the money to get techs there, but as soon as they can get staffed the money goes away.  We've all seen the pay rates drop for an SGRP or other long jobs, because they get staffed.  What makes your work worth less that year than it was the year before?  It wasn't because we got dumber or less professional.  It is just the market wringing out the last dime.

In the end, the decision to unionize is too close to call for some people, and doing so will not solve our problems overnight.   I don't know what the answer is, but I'm pretty sure that if we continue to do as we have been doing, we will continue to get what we have been getting.
"To be content with little is hard; to be content with much, impossible." - Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach

JassenB

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #27 on: Aug 03, 2004, 05:08 »
As long as someone is willing to work for $20 & $80, we all have to.

Is that the wage that awaits me once I get my 3 years and become a Senior???

Maybe I should go back to being an electrician. :o 
(just kidding!) :)

Out of the ~800 techs on the road, would it even be possible to round up 240 required to organize?

-Jassen

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #28 on: Aug 03, 2004, 05:52 »
What do you mean "just kidding"?  Do you know a Journeyman Electrician who makes less than $28.00 without having to leave home?
"To be content with little is hard; to be content with much, impossible." - Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach

Chimera

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #29 on: Aug 03, 2004, 08:17 »
I agree with Beer Court . . . the case is too close to call.  The main difference between us is that I have been in the unions as an HP Tech. 

Yeah, we had a contract with gauranteed paid holidays and a preset payscale.  The scale had nothing to do with capability - only longevity in the union. 

The main thing that keeps me away from the issue of unionization is the hierarchy needed to run the union.  It has been my considered opinion that the people I didn't like working for/with would the ones to rise to the top and take control of the union.  They are more political animals than techs and know how to prosper in that environment than most techs would.  That has been an over-riding concern since we (HP Techs) first stated talking about organizing back in the late 70's. 

While I liked the pay benefits derived from the union contracts, the union did nothing else for me.  I would rather have the ability to "vote" with my feet concerning the desirability of a given contract than have a union structure tell me where I had to go and what I would have to accept as pay.

Another side note about unionizing: Most craft that I know report to the local hall as "travelers" when they arrive at the new job site.  Per diem tends to disappear (or be greatly reduced) when you work out of the "local" hall.  I've heard enough pipefitters, mechanics and electricians complain about that in the past.  I also wouldn't like the idea of being put on the bottom of the elegibility list if I passed on a particular job.

Talk to the travelers that work around you to get a better picture of the "benefits" of unionizing the road techs.

I, like Beer Court, tend to be conservative.  And, just like Beer Court, I really don't like the idea of unionizing at all.

DainJer

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #30 on: Aug 03, 2004, 09:16 »
True...Being a Union Carpenter, We receive no Per diem when traveling to nuke plants.

The pay scale is actually fairly close once that is taken into consideration.

Also remember, we pay 4% to dues..based on "gross" not "net".

so...say Dresden, carpenters make around $33 on the check, a tech making $20 and $80 per day PD works out pretty close.


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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #31 on: Aug 03, 2004, 10:15 »
I never said I wouldn't join a union.  I just don't think we have the solidarity to start one.  If there is an existing union that could represent us as we are instead of trying to squeeze us square pegs into their round holes, I'm ready to listen.
The problem is that most unions are used to dealing with only a few trades.  They just don't have experience dealing with a trade that is unique to nuclear work.   Even though most union HP's belong to the IBEW, you can't travel as an HP with an IBEW tramp card.  That part of the IBEW only reps electricians and some welders.  Even an inside electrician can't work out of some locals because they are for outside linemen only.  They are just not set up for us.  So, even with an existing union, it will take some effort to organize.  Me, I'm not interested in doing that kind of work.  I'm not a politician.
"To be content with little is hard; to be content with much, impossible." - Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach

RAD-GHOST

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #32 on: Aug 04, 2004, 06:30 »
Hey JassenB, In case you aren't aware of the current wage situation out their, a 3.1 qualification isn't even a guarantee of $20.00/hr & $80.00/day!  Over two decades of qual's here, which will more than likely get you that money, but again, no guarantee's.  Look forward to a prosperous future on the road!

I have to go check my browser to see if my selected language is english!

Later, RG!

JassenB

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #33 on: Aug 05, 2004, 01:14 »
Hey JassenB, In case you aren't aware of the current wage situation out their, a 3.1 qualification isn't even a guarantee of $20.00/hr & $80.00/day!  Over two decades of qual's here, which will more than likely get you that money, but again, no guarantee's.  Look forward to a prosperous future on the road!

Actually, I'm just now starting to become aware of the wage situation. At first I thought it was dependent strictly on the staffing firm and the utility, but I'm discovering a general downwards depression in wages for rad con personnel, based on my knowledge of wages from 3 years ago when I first came to civilian life.

I'm working as a haz mat deconner right now, and I'm about to take a $3.50 per hour cut in pay from doing local environmental work (which is highly sporadic, and is summer seasonal around here) to go back to the nuclear world as a rad deconner, but the per diem swings it for me.

Heck, two years ago I was making $17 as a biotech plant operator (exact same job as a nuclear auxiliary/non-licensed operator). I thought the idea was for my wages to gradually go up over time, not to dip back into single digit dollar figures.

I'm heavily exploring career options right now, and really trying to find a direction where the pay is high enough to replace my wife's income relatively soon.

But, in the meantime, I still have *my* bills to pay. I realize that this is exactly the attitude being discussed in this thread, and if there was some effort towards professional recognition or unionization, I would definitely join in, but I don't see something like that coming together yet.

My wife and I are fortunate in that she has a very high paying job, and we have over 12 months worth of living expenses in the bank, so we could survive a walkout/strike. But, with my wife's medical problems and other issues, I have no desire to tap into that savings yet, so I have made the decision to go on the road again, but for shorter stints so I can still be home some (I was at Brookhaven in May, but left because of said "issues" on the home front).

Toodles!
-JassenB
« Last Edit: Aug 05, 2004, 01:20 by JassenB »

Surveyors_mato

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #34 on: Nov 17, 2004, 03:22 »
Hey, let's kick this one around some more.

   Bartlett being (almost) the only game in town, it's worh another look. BC said that unionization had been talked about but could get together. Why? I think primarily because techs are all over the country and the one side has no knowledge of what the other is doing. This would really require only a few people and a common site, as to pass information vital to "the cause".

   Who could this be? It. must be a long standing, well respected and well known, Sr tech. One who has worked most if not all the plants. One that every one of us knows or at least has heard of. It would take one person in the upper levels of one of the companies, to recognize and support the movment. It would take legal representation.

   It would take......................... ..aw hell who am I kidding, It would take an act of God. Well at least I got to practice my typing skills. :D Have a great day!

Offline RRhoads

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #35 on: Nov 17, 2004, 09:16 »
yeah!!
i'am not totally against it but???
Lets see...
My wage goes to $33/hr (hypothetically)
I loose my Diem
I have to pay my Union dues on my gross w/ OT
And i have one less write off at the end of the year?
And i am GUESSING that the Carp due that travels does NOT get travel pay either???
Where do i sign up???
I think a better approach whould be what Diablo did this outage...although i didn't go....Cut out the Head shop & hire Temp...
What was the rate there???
Mid 30's per hr & like 140 a day per diem & travel pay????
No union + no bartlett= higher wage & higher diem!!

Offline UncaBuffalo

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #36 on: Nov 17, 2004, 10:10 »
I think a better approach whould be what Diablo did this outage...although i didn't go....Cut out the Head shop & hire Temp...
What was the rate there???
Mid 30's per hr & like 140 a day per diem & travel pay????
No union + no bartlett= higher wage & higher diem!!

I'd like to see the utilities explore this if it means a better deal for the techs, but one note...you DO pay union dues at Diablo.
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Offline Nuclear NASCAR

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #37 on: Nov 17, 2004, 10:35 »
I can only speak for our Union, but our dues are 2 hrs. pay per month plus per capita tax to the International of about $5.50.  Cheap price to me but I've not been out on the road.
"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge."

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RAD-GHOST

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #38 on: Nov 18, 2004, 06:43 »
The Concept of Organizing, may not be that far from Reality.

Some still cringe at the attempt of the 90's and don't want to venture back into the same scenerio.  During that attempt, the organizers didn't view the full scope of the business and the people involved.  Lots of Techs, Lots of Avaliable Assignments, Lots of Companies and a Transient Work Force.  Within a week after the strike start date, most of the Techs I knew who walked, were employed with another company, at another site.  The official organizers had no concept of a work force that could simply pick up the phone and obtain a job, then travel 3000 miles for an assignment the following day!  I believe, not verified, the organizers assumed the people they represented, would stay in place and support the negotiations.  Economical Preservation is a major driving force for anyone!  Another stumbling block of the times, not available in todays market, was the utilities ability to stand through long outage periods with little financial impact.  In todays world, an hour equates to about $20,000.00, thats a number with a bite to it!

Also in the 90's, the scope of the attempt was Nation Wide!  Today's agenda only needs be site specific and a hand full of Techs.  Todays outages staff with an average of 50 to 60 Contract Techs.  Twenty percent have a big say in their future, especially with a timely delivery of terms.  I know, as some of you read this, the concept of the blackball list is rolling in your head.  Has it existed, YES!  Does it exist today, YES!  Will it exist in the future, YES!  Make no mistake, one companies Blackball list, is another companies assets!  No company can afford a blackball list, or should I say Probation list, to long in length!  I don't think many techs overlooked the past seasons employment postings, of the secondary companies.  The companies that have little focus on the Commercial Health Physics Industry, yet they posted for positions.  Maybe they felt like it was time to venture into the commercial industry, or maybe the utilities decided it was time to preserve the existance of competition!  Who Knows?

Unionize and teach the Bastards a lesson!  WRONG!  Many have the concept that a union is a venue to teach the employer a lesson, it's not!  Bringing problems to the table and negotiating solutions is the real agenda, what's fair and what's not!  Companies want to know the problems of the employees and address them in part, if not 100%.  No company wants to be in a position of pissing off half their staff and watching the cars leaving site for the last time!  Everybody knows the current agenda with the utilities, lighter and tighter staffing, with a stop watch schedule!  No matter what anybody believes, when the breaker opens, the money clock is ticking!  Nobody wants to be off the clock, not the Utility, VP, Department Manager, or the Contract Companies!

Everybody wants a Guaranteed agenda, while expecting a better future!  Nobody is knocking on my door offering increased wages and benefits!  I have to go out and solicite the benefits and wages I will work for!  I guess that makes me a true traveler, since compensation out weights loyalty!  Of course loyalty is directly proportional to compansation!  The HP technician industry is somehwat unique when it comes to offers, solid numbers with no negotiation at all!  No guarantees for anything!  In fact, your not even 100% sure if you have a job until show up day and then your not even sure for how long!  Sitting and waiting may not be in the best interst for anybody in the profession.  Time will tell!

Now I'll roll into my Professional Theory!  Are Health Physics Technicians Professionals?  Do you consider yourself professional?  Do your peers consider you a professional?  Do the companies press the Professional speech on you, at the start of the outage?  If you answered yes to any of the questions, why don't the contract companies consider the profession, Professional?  Check it out, contact a company and tell them your looking for a Rad Engineer position, they will send you to the Professional Division!  I've always found it strange that only a handfull of site postions, have to meet routine testing and qualification standards, yet some are not considered Professionals!  I'm kind of a dinosaur, but I always figured, the more you test my credential and the more I prove myself, the more professional I am!  Another aspect of the Professional agenda is the site reception.  Here's an old Physics concept, every action has an opposit and equal reaction!  Treating Techs like second class citizens, can only lead to one resolve!  This whole concept make you wonder, who's selling you and as what?

Have a Great Day, RG

Offline justme

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #39 on: Nov 19, 2004, 06:39 »
Diablo wages are about $30/hr, 99/day diem.  Plus overtime after 10 hours each day (not after 40 hours) plus double time on overtime days.   Yes you do pay union dues about $60 a month, but it is worth it to make over 3 grand a week during an outage.
It is what it is!

Offline UncaBuffalo

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #40 on: Nov 19, 2004, 09:35 »
Diablo wages are about $30/hr, 99/day diem.  Plus overtime after 10 hours each day (not after 40 hours) plus double time on overtime days.   Yes you do pay union dues about $60 a month, but it is worth it to make over 3 grand a week during an outage.

You forgot to mention "drive in/drive out" pay and meals!   WOO-HOO!  Chaa-Ching!   :) 
We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner! I can’t think what anybody sees in them.      - B. Baggins

RAD-GHOST

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #41 on: Nov 20, 2004, 02:38 »
U.B.

Imagine that, a customer that actually realizes, your bills and expenses don't stop while your traveling. 

This may be a little off topic, but as I read it, Diablo pays about $30.00 and hour, $99 a day PD, Travel expenses and Wages on travel day, OT on a daily bases  and double time!  I'll bet they have a real problem finding people!   :-\

Thanks for the Info, RG

raymcginnis

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #42 on: Nov 20, 2004, 04:46 »
I know someone who is working at Hanford, getting something like $50.00 an hour and $120.00 a day per diem (low cost area), on a long term job.  There is more out there than most of us see.  You just have to explore, but you must be qualified!!!  Search, search, search my dear friends!

Offline UncaBuffalo

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Re: The Last Outage!
« Reply #43 on: Nov 20, 2004, 12:57 »
This may be a little off topic, but as I read it, Diablo pays about $30.00 and hour, $99 a day PD, Travel expenses and Wages on travel day, OT on a daily bases  and double time!  I'll bet they have a real problem finding people!   :-\

Actually, it's NOT the travel days you get paid wages on..."drive in/drive out" pay means you get paid for your driving time from home on your overtime days, so can end up being between an hour and two hours of EXTRA overtime on those days.
We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner! I can’t think what anybody sees in them.      - B. Baggins

 


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