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Offline GLW

Double Dipping Per Diem
« on: Nov 09, 2010, 10:40 »
My take.

We hire skill sets, team compatability, interdiscipline diversity.

Not Mr. and Mrs., him and her, him and him, her and her, etc.,

The hired worker is paid per diem to assist in that worker being able to show up where and when needed because the local talent supply cannot meet my immediate need.

It's not my business if Tech A is the spouse of Tech X.

It's not my obligation to assure Tech A can work the same schedule as Tech X so their commute into work is convenient for them. I have paid each of them an individual per diem allotment to assist each one to show up to work when I need their specific skill set.

If I dismiss Tech X on Friday I still need Tech A on Saturday, and Tech A is still paid per diem to assist with that commitment.

I do not know what double dipping is supposed to be or why it is somehow negative or unfair. As best as I can tell it's a term of derision used against individual workers who happen to cohabitate. If that is some sort of standard, I as the employer should be entitled to a reimbursement for every instance of outage romance resulting in one night or multiple night stands. And those post coital breakfasts with sated goofy goobers sitting on the same side of the booth, eating off the same plate, should also be subject to some sort of monetary reevaluation and reimbursement also.

I'm just saying,....
« Last Edit: Nov 09, 2010, 10:42 by Marssim »

been there, dun that,... the doormat to hell does not read "welcome", the doormat to hell reads "it's just business"

Melrose

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Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #1 on: Nov 10, 2010, 07:07 »
Diem owed is diem owed regardless of pairing.  If the contract pays hourly plus diem, that means everyone.  I've never seen any stipulation stating that couples (MF, FF,MM, MT, FT)  :o are not eligible.  A family of seven on the same site in the same hotel room/rented house working for the same company are ALL paid diem.  
Of course the contract could state otherwise, but then that may be a web to sticky to deal with.
Seems the only association that would make it any of their business is the IRS.  Problem with that would probably only fall on the son/daughter trying to prove that their keeping another houshold when in fact they live with mom and dad at home.
Couples are both contributary to homestead, at residence or at the job. They're safe in my opinion, not that that matters.  JMHO

There will always be bitchin' and moaning from those getting caught working the system and those that think someone else is working it better than they.

There are more important things in life, than what the guy/guys next to you are getting away with, don't be so worried about getting yours.

Give an day's work for a day's pay, go home safe, sane and pockets fat.
« Last Edit: Nov 10, 2010, 07:08 by Melrose »

Offline Smart People

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Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #2 on: Nov 10, 2010, 08:53 »
If two people are hired and doing the job. How they habitate is their business, married or not. I don't think I've ever had an issue with a couple double dipping. If we worry about that then should we only pay one of them an hourly rate while both are working?

Is one spouse more valuable than the other when both are doing their job? If so then why did you hire both?
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BetaAnt

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Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #3 on: Nov 10, 2010, 10:23 »
The question is , 'who is responsible for the tax code enforcement?'  ::)
The IRS, vendor or client? ???
When an agreement is signed, the terms should not be changed over the life of the contract without the consent of all parties. :)
When the client decides arbitrarily to change per diem requirements, what is to prevent the client paying techs minimum wage ($7.25/hr)? :o

If techs were to vote with their feet when terms change (which some have), the clients may decide to be bound by the original agreement. :)
The client and the vendor should stay out of the techs bedrooms and let the tax specialists decide (much as I cringe at the prospect) the per diem issues. :)
As far as proving my 'other residence', in days of old my other residence was a hotel room after the divorce. Some clients would not accept that as a tax home. :-\

Like the man said, "If you don't like it, work somewhere else". :)

 8) 8) 8)

Offline tymekeeper

Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #4 on: Nov 10, 2010, 11:43 »
It's not like this situation of not wanting to pay both partners their per diem is new. I remember some power plant jobs where married RPs came in for outages and found out only one travel would be paid or one would get FULL per diem while one would get PARTIAL per diem (only one lodging was paid). Of course there were also the plants that would not hire couples, but I don't think that had anything to do with per diem.

There are jobs (I know from personal experience) that in order to qualify for getting per diem, you must live a certain amount of miles away from the job site and must provide the company with proof of a home address (mortgage documentation or utility bills) in your name; if all the bills are in the name of your spouse and not joint then you must also provide a copy of your marriage certificate.

I haven't had to do this at nuke sites yet, but I have had to provide receipts of a local address when I got to site and my licence that had a different address to show double expense.

Get used to it. Stay legal or be ready to pay up.

Offline techtoolong

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Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #5 on: Nov 10, 2010, 12:30 »
Post taken from Browns Ferry Blog on BHI website: They at one time would not double dip Per Diem

Long Term Assignment Living Expense Certification

Assignments lasting longer than 90 days at a TVA site are subject to a certification process to establish eligibility to receive Long Term Assignment Expenses. This only applies to individuals receiving Nonlocal pay and Living Expenses.  Long Term Assignment Living Expense (LTLE) is equivalent to $70 per day. To demonstrate eligibility for LTLE employees must complete a TVA certification form and provide supporting documentation such as current mortgage statements, tax records, utility bills, deeds, rental agreements, proof of payment, etc. This applies to all assignments that are scheduled to last >90 days. The BNI contact for more information regarding the certification process is to contact ( name deleted). BNI will notify all affected employees in advance of the certification due date to begin the process. Failure to submit the required documentation or successfully complete the process will result in termination of all LTLE and recovery of any LTLE paid.   

Offline Already Gone

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Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #6 on: Nov 10, 2010, 09:29 »
I think (can't be sure at this point) that the point I was trying to make is that each individual employee is entitled to be considered a separate individual and paid accordingly.  The logical and necessary correlation to this is that if you wish it to be so, then you can't ask your employer for all that stuff that Marssim pointed out ( same day off, same shift, same layoff date, ... etc.).  You just can't have it both ways.  Which is exactly the reason why some places will never hire couples.  When you want to hire two technicians, you don't want to get stuck with a couple.

So, if you want it to be none of your employer's business that you are a couple, then you shouldn't make it your employer's problem that you are a couple.
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Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #7 on: Nov 10, 2010, 10:03 »
I think (can't be sure at this point) that the point I was trying to make is that each individual employee is entitled to be considered a separate individual and paid accordingly.  The logical and necessary correlation to this is that if you wish it to be so, then you can't ask your employer for all that stuff that Marssim pointed out ( same day off, same shift, same layoff date, ... etc.).  You just can't have it both ways.  Which is exactly the reason why some places will never hire couples.  When you want to hire two technicians, you don't want to get stuck with a couple.

So, if you want it to be none of your employer's business that you are a couple, then you shouldn't make it your employer's problem that you are a couple.

Best statement on the subject!  :D

Once you get the 'bean counters' looking closely, they will try to find beans that are not there.
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Offline let-it-ride

Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #8 on: Nov 10, 2010, 10:49 »
I wonder what the NPUA will say about this? Will they back up the techs? If the utilities still refuse to pay diem, will the NPUA call a strike??
Another thing to think about.

atomicarcheologist

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Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #9 on: Nov 11, 2010, 12:31 »
Problems multiply with the number of personnel.  They increase expotentially with couples.  Simply my observation.

RADBASTARD

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Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #10 on: Nov 11, 2010, 09:37 »
Well its sounds like some people maybe jealous about husbands or wives double dipping because their not?

How about when you and your buddie split a room or apt. or boy friend and girl friend hey why should you get per diem when your both sharing and splitting the cost.

How about the gay and lesbian couples we have in the business why don't you go after them ,they are together and double dip whats the difference???
Why don't you take it from one partner or the other/ How do you decide?

Some needs to worry about themselves and putting their nose in other peoples business and quit crying like a little bitch!

Offline Laundry Man

Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #11 on: Nov 12, 2010, 08:27 »
Very nicely said.  I only had this situation once along time ago.  Long term girlfriend and I were friends with the site coordinator and his wife.  Probably wasn't a problem as the coordinators wife worked also.  Amazing how that works.
LM


Well its sounds like some people maybe jealous about husbands or wives double dipping because their not?

How about when you and your buddie split a room or apt. or boy friend and girl friend hey why should you get per diem when your both sharing and splitting the cost.

How about the gay and lesbian couples we have in the business why don't you go after them ,they are together and double dip whats the difference???
Why don't you take it from one partner or the other/ How do you decide?

Some needs to worry about themselves and putting their nose in other peoples business and quit crying like a little bitch!

Melrose

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Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #12 on: Nov 12, 2010, 11:52 »
I wonder what the NPUA will say about this? Will they back up the techs? If the utilities still refuse to pay diem, will the NPUA call a strike??
Another thing to think about.

Does the NPUA negotiate the contract for Bartlett, DZ or any other contract company?
Paleeeeeeze, not a heavy enough hitter to matter.

If the customer refuses to pay diem, then it's based on a reason, that justification would be in the contract.  Don't like the contract, don't go. 

If I'm on a job and a tech shows up with his taildragger tied to his belt loop only to find out that they get half diem, you can bet NPUA would have no say in whether or not I feed my family.

Not that I'd pay any DA for the right to work.  Just saying, 'if' I were ignorant enough to do so.  There are more important things to stand up for,
like; family, mo money, better insurance, a union that doesn't protect dead beats etc, etc, etc

Chimera

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Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #13 on: Nov 12, 2010, 12:07 »
Does the NPUA negotiate the contract for Bartlett, DZ or any other contract company?

Not that I'd pay any DA for the right to work.  Just saying, 'if' I were ignorant enough to do so.  There are more important things to stand up for,
like; family, mo money, better insurance, a union that doesn't protect dead beats etc, etc, etc

A couple points: 1) The "contract" exists between the Utility and the service provider.  While we may have verbal agreements with the service provider, relative to the contract we are just line items and have no say - other than whether or not we will accept the terms the service provider offers.  2) As far as the unions are concerned, they, by their very nature, protect the lowest common denominator and do not reward excellence or efficiency.

In the real world that means you either accept the terms offered by the service provider or you look for a job more to your liking.  Most expierenced Road Techs have learned to ask the critical questions before they say "yes" to any particular gig regardless of who the service provider is.

Offline Lorrie Henson

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Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #14 on: Nov 12, 2010, 12:09 »
Jim and I have worked the same sites before.   We've had to work different shifts because of the kids.   He started a week before me and I got laid off about 2 weeks before him.  Never once did we say we wanted the same shift, same day off, etc, etc.... the only thing we asked was to be on opposite shifts, because of the kids.

I can see where the 'double-dipping' issue is, but I also agree that it is NO different from a couple of buddies sharing a hotel room, or 4 coworkers sharing a house.  If anyone has a problem with it, then GO GET A ROOMIE!!  

Melrose

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Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #15 on: Nov 12, 2010, 02:35 »
A couple points: 1) The "contract" exists between the Utility and the service provider.  While we may have verbal agreements with the service provider, relative to the contract we are just line items and have no say - other than whether or not we will accept the terms the service provider offers.  2) As far as the unions are concerned, they, by their very nature, protect the lowest common denominator and do not reward excellence or efficiency.In the real world that means you either accept the terms offered by the service provider or you look for a job more to your liking.  Most expierenced Road Techs have learned to ask the critical questions before they say "yes" to any particular gig regardless of who the service provider is.

that's right... politically well put, thanks
Before accepting any terms, as stated earlier, you should definately understand what they are, if you accept blindly, shame on you.

stownsend

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Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #16 on: Nov 12, 2010, 05:20 »
  We've had to work different shifts because of the kids.     Never once did we say we wanted the same shift, same day off, etc, etc.... the only thing we asked was to be on opposite shifts, because of the kids. 
Lorrie,I'm glad it worked for you but what if the customer said no we need you on the same shift. What's the difference than the couple asking for the same shift. You are still asking the customer for something. They don't have to give preference but It's nice when it works out. I've had to work different shifts than my wife but I think she asked for it ;).Since we are kicking diem around why is there a higher pay rate for non travelers. Diem is for reimbursement of dual expenses.Why pay the local doing the same job a bonus pay rate?

Offline Lorrie Henson

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Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #17 on: Nov 12, 2010, 06:50 »
You're absolutely correct.... we ask for something (different shifts).. if the answer had been no, then I wouldn't have worked.  But they seem to like Jim just a little bit  ;)

Offline fiveeleven

Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #18 on: Nov 13, 2010, 08:05 »
In times past, double dipping was when the technician who was receiving diem was also writing off his/her expenses on their tax returns. This was done usually by the individual incorporating themselves tax status wise. The obvious flirting with disaster with the IRS did not seem to be a deterrent to some. As a survivor of the great ARC tax bust circa 86-90 at DC Cook, my number one suspect as to who dropped dime on his fellow technicians when the ray-ban wearing suits came a calling, was a known purveyor of the then defined double dip.And to him I say-may your chronic exposure to low levels of ionizing radiation have you looking through cloudy eyes at increased leukocyte levels on your blood panel. MM2/ELT USS NIMITZ CVN-68 80-84 BOHICA

daain01

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Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #19 on: Dec 30, 2010, 08:03 »
      Once again, people are trying to figure out whats going on in someone else's back yard.
Ive been working in the Nuclear biz for 20 years, and its always been an issue. An issue that is usually brought up by the ones traveling alone.

     Maybe some have forgotten, Diem is a compensatory fund for living away from home. Not monies for paying the bills back home. There is no difference between my wife and I sharing a rental, while working away from home, and two roomates splitting the rent.
    And did someone post that it is cheaper for two people to eat, than it is for one? Pa-leese.

     My wife and I have worked together for 17 years. We have worked different shifts, different hours, and had outages with different days off....big deal. Thats just the way it is. And we realize that fact everytime we go to an outage. If we get to work the same shift and the same days off ,GREAT! If not, oh well.
     I have worked with couples that try to play the " If we cant work together, we are outta here" card. Thats just wrong, and if that happens, a site Cord. should encourage them to leave.
     
     

Content1

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Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #20 on: Dec 30, 2010, 10:58 »
Most people share a room anyway, and per diem has not risen with inflation.   They should make an offer for dollars per hour, travel and diem all based on a per person basis.   The company can plan for the cost, the contractor for his/her profit margin after expenses.    If the contractor found a way to go somewhere and they were given free rent, is it anyone else's business?   The loner contractor who cannot find a roommate learns to profit less from the experience, and to not whine they cannot get a better deal if they agreed to the terms they took to get the job.   I used to travel in a group of 4 and the recruiter found it beneficial to have a reliable group each outage.   It consisted on a senior, junior and two deconners.  We all squeezed into the same car and got 4 travel allowances.   Since travel was capped, it took 4 travel allowances to go cross country and back to break even for the gas, repairs, rooms for the trip.

I became a house tech and made 88K gross (lots of overtime, of course) this year with no per diem and am happy.  I made a similar amount as a traveler including per diem in previous years, but had 3 months off paid via unemployment.   To each his own, travelers or house tech.   The traveler should always be treated as an individual.   They don't ask house techs who we are living with to base our salary.

Offline Incline

Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #21 on: Dec 30, 2010, 11:49 »
 Why do some plants pay more for locals than what they pay travelers? I don't know why, don't care why. If you don't like it then don't go there or if it chaps your hide that bad then ask the office why, they are the ones who agree to the contract with the utility.

 The one thing I never understood was why do some utilities pull per diem after the outage and clean-up are over. They ask a person to stay for a month or two after the outage to fill in for vacations or help on a project then pull the diem because it's not outage and to add insult to injury, the persons pay rate stays the same...no local pay rate. When that happened to me I asked why and informed them that even though my pay went down by 1/3, my bills did not. I was still maintaining 2 houses and was stuck there. If i had quit then no UE for me.

Morale of the story is...The contract company agrees to things the utility wants because its better to make a little money off a warm body than to make nothing at all on moral principle. It's the way of the world.

Happy New Year All! Be safe

Content1

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Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #22 on: Dec 31, 2010, 04:00 »
I am not an expert on unemployment, but if the conditions of your job substantially changed, like a cut in pay, I don't think you would lose unemployment if you left.  In any case, you could still deduct the away from home costs on your income tax, recouping some of the loss.

Offline Incline

Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #23 on: Dec 31, 2010, 01:05 »
I was a Sr RP Tech at a plant that is in the south a few years ago and the contract company was Bartlett. From what I understand something similar just happened to someone else earlier this year, so it still goes on. They asked for a layoff for the fall outages and got it.
I can understand the utility trying to protect their bottom line, but I wouldn't think a contract company has to sign off on it. 

Chimera

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Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #24 on: Dec 31, 2010, 11:45 »
The one thing I never understood was why do some utilities pull per diem after the outage and clean-up are over. They ask a person to stay for a month or two after the outage to fill in for vacations or help on a project then pull the diem because it's not outage and to add insult to injury, the persons pay rate stays the same...no local pay rate. When that happened to me I asked why and informed them that even though my pay went down by 1/3, my bills did not. I was still maintaining 2 houses and was stuck there. If i had quit then no UE for me.

There are several plants that utilize "long-term" Techs that have an "outage" and a "non-outage" pay and per diem scale.  I ran into that once without being aware of the situation.  Since then, I've learned to ask before I accept the offer to stay after the outage.  I don't know why things are set up that way but they are.  Just remember to add that to your list of quesitons you need to ask before accepting any particular contract.

In my own humble opinion, it is nobody else's business what I make - either pay scale or per diem.  Conversely, it is none of my business what anyone else earns.  I accepted a particular deal when I accepted the contract.  Whether I choose to find a roomie or stay by myself is my business and no one else's.  If we would all learn to ignore the other guys' checks - whether pay, per diem or bonus - we would probably all be happier.  Of course, people who dig into other people's paychecks probably get all upset if another Tech does fewer surveys or spends too long on break.  We would all be happier if we would just grow up a little bit.

Happy New Year!

Michael

Offline Already Gone

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Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #25 on: Jan 01, 2011, 12:49 »
      Once again, people are trying to figure out whats going on in someone else's back yard.
Ive been working in the Nuclear biz for 20 years, and its always been an issue. An issue that is usually brought up by the ones traveling alone.

     Maybe some have forgotten, Diem is a compensatory fund for living away from home. Not monies for paying the bills back home. There is no difference between my wife and I sharing a rental, while working away from home, and two roomates splitting the rent.
    And did someone post that it is cheaper for two people to eat, than it is for one? Pa-leese.

No.  Nobody said any such thing.
I wrote the following:  It is much cheaper for a married couple to live and eat than it would be for two other employees who have no relationship.

Even though I agree with your post in every regard, it pisses me off when somebody who wasn't paying attention misquotes me.  Read a little more carefully next time.  Pa-leese.
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Sun Dog

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Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #26 on: Jan 01, 2011, 08:31 »
   
And did someone post that it is cheaper for two people to eat, than it is for one?    
    


It is much cheaper for a married couple to live and eat...


Not word-for-word accuracy but close enough.  But you have to admit, one plate is usually cheaper than two...


And those post coital breakfasts with sated goofy goobers sitting on the same side of the booth, eating off the same plate, should also be subject to some sort of monetary reevaluation and reimbursement also.

« Last Edit: Jan 01, 2011, 08:43 by Sun Dog »

Sun Dog

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Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #27 on: Jan 01, 2011, 01:24 »
Everyone knows that it costs a single guy much more than married folks traveling as a team or single women traveling alone.  The single guy will spend a considerable amount of cash in his quest for a post coital breakfast.  The married couple, not so much; the single woman, hardly any at all (but that will vary).

Single men should get 100% of the going rate for per diem.

Married couples should get 50% of the rate.

It is tricky determining the fair per diem rate for single women.  Somewhere between 0% and 25% seems right.

The same sliding scale should be used when determining hourly pay rates.

BTW - if you don't stir the pot, the refrieds stick to the bottom, and we wouldn't want that would we?
« Last Edit: Jan 01, 2011, 01:33 by Sun Dog »

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Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #28 on: Jan 01, 2011, 06:38 »
Code: [Select]
Posted by: Sun Dog 
Insert Quote
Everyone knows that it costs a single guy much more than married folks traveling as a team or single women traveling alone.  The single guy will spend a considerable amount of cash in his quest for a post coital breakfast.  The married couple, not so much; the single woman, hardly any at all (but that will vary).

Single men should get 100% of the going rate for per diem.

Married couples should get 50% of the rate.

It is tricky determining the fair per diem rate for single women.  Somewhere between 0% and 25% seems right.

The same sliding scale should be used when determining hourly pay rates.

BTW - if you don't stir the pot, the refrieds stick to the bottom, and we wouldn't want that would we?



What about - equal job = equal pay & equal diem  ;D :stupidme:

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Sun Dog

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Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #29 on: Jan 01, 2011, 07:26 »
Code: [Select]
Posted by: Sun Dog 
Insert Quote
Everyone knows that it costs a single guy much more than married folks traveling as a team or single women traveling alone.  The single guy will spend a considerable amount of cash in his quest for a post coital breakfast.  The married couple, not so much; the single woman, hardly any at all (but that will vary).

Single men should get 100% of the going rate for per diem.

Married couples should get 50% of the rate.

It is tricky determining the fair per diem rate for single women.  Somewhere between 0% and 25% seems right.

The same sliding scale should be used when determining hourly pay rates.

BTW - if you don't stir the pot, the refrieds stick to the bottom, and we wouldn't want that would we?



What about - equal job = equal pay & equal diem  ;D :stupidme:



Hey M...see what I mean now?

 

Offline jason

Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #30 on: Jan 03, 2011, 09:19 »
I am a single woman that travels alone and I do not get any money from anywhere else or anyone. I am a Sr. Health Physics and I have travelled alone for 27 years.  I have the  money  that I earn So, that comment generalizing single women with married couples with two paychecks and two per diems checks is BULL!!

Offline retread

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Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #31 on: Jan 03, 2011, 10:06 »
I am a single woman that travels alone and I do not get any money from anywhere else or anyone. I am a Sr. Health Physics and I have travelled alone for 27 years.  I have the  money  that I earn So, that comment generalizing single women with married couples with two paychecks and two per diems checks is BULL!!
Wow, looks like Sundog should have used a few emoticons! You didn't really take him seriously, did you?
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Re: Double Dipping Per Diem
« Reply #32 on: Jan 03, 2011, 12:08 »
Many techs do the roomate(s) thing. How is that any different than a married couple where each collect diem.
I never saw the "life is fair" rulebook but if I did I'm sure it would include the order of layoffs, shift schedule, days off and who works harder than who at the same pay. Let the lawyers, accountants and bar tenders hear it.

 


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