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Offline Neutron Whisperer

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Leadership
« on: Dec 21, 2010, 12:29 »
Trying to think of the best way to word this question... Been reading a lot of books from the Management/Leadership shelf at the bookstore over the last couple years.  Some of the ones I've found to be the most useful:

"The Carrot Principle"
"The No Asshole Rule"
"High Output Management" with follow-up reading on "constructive confrontation"
"Failing Forward"
"The No Complaining Rule"
"101 Tough Conversations to have with Employees"

I've been the LPO on my last boat, at NPTU, and on my current boat.  I've received a NAM for what I accomplished at NPTU while being the LPO and was made the Sailor of the Quarter last month (was told that I would have been Sailor of the Year if I had been on board for longer).  I'm thinking next year is my year to make Chief.

My question is if all of the books I've read, and will read, are intangible? (Nothing that can be put in a resume but would pay off later while actually in the workplace)  And if my Navy accolades in leadership will simply be a single resume bullet?  In other words, is there some sort of certificate in leadership or management?  Is what I'm driving at a degree in human resources?

Any help would be appreciated.
« Last Edit: Dec 21, 2010, 03:16 by Neutron Whisperer »
Disclaimer: there is no "tone" to my post.

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #1 on: Dec 21, 2010, 01:00 »
This is one the most scrutinized things on the planet. Leadership isn't something you can read in a book, nor is it something that can be taught directly. It comes down to your perception of what is good and what is poor. Go up to any chief and say "Hey, are you a good leader?" 100% will answer "Yes". We all know that is not the case , at least not 100% of the time. And perhaps that is due to our perception of what a good leader actually is? Is a good leader a hard ass? Is it a hugger? Is it someone who is fair but tough? a lot of people also seem to write off discipline and accountability to "hes being mean to me", its hard to convey that.  You have more experience then I do, but Im just trying to give you a different point of view as well.

Im going to assume you are on your 12-14 year mark. A lot of you senior first classes get so caught up in making chief and kissing butt, you fail to understand what you are actually supposed to be doing. Its like those sr chiefs that are "out for blood". One guy came on my boat expecting to make chief right away. He was super diggety, had us working CRAZY hours, and everything was underproductive because he wanted to "look good" instead of taking care of his people. After he broke down a bit (took a little over a year) he relaxed, started saying "hey these are my people and this is my plant" and started acting like what I would want in a chief. We were much more motivated to work, and when it came down to it, we got more accomplished in less time.  He put on khaki this year, and I couldnt be happier for him.   

My humble two cents is given :)  Books are good, but experience is better of course.  some of those book titles look interesting, so Ill have a gander at them, thanks.

JustinHEMI05

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #2 on: Dec 21, 2010, 02:38 »
I applaud your drive and desire to be a better leader. For all I know, you are a good leader, and I assume you are. In my experience though, the military infrequently produces real leaders, and by that I mean leaders that can get something done without the "or else" or the "because I out rank you" behind them. To that end, I recommend you take a hard look at yourself and your leadership style and ensure you don't fall into one of those 2 paradigms before getting into the civilian world, where those fail miserably. Reading the books you mentioned will help recognize the leader that is in you... or not in you... as the case may be. Real leaders are born, not trained or found in a book, IMO. Although the military produces the type of leaders it needs, it often doesn't translate well outside of the military. Again, that is based off my 9 years in the Navy and 3 years in commercial nuclear power. I could be way wrong.

That said, unfortunately, yes, your leadership experience will be boiled down to a bullet on your resume. What you have done to better prepare yourself as a leader won't even get a mention, nor will the accolade recognizing you as a leader. However, how good of a leader you are will come through on your resume in your work experience and in the answers to the questions you are asked during your interview. There is no paper, accolade or degree that can prove you are a good leader. Only you can do that through your actions.

« Last Edit: Dec 21, 2010, 02:41 by JustinHEMI »

Offline Neutron Whisperer

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #3 on: Dec 21, 2010, 03:32 »
Thanks Justin and Charlie.  I had thought, after posting, that the job interview would be where certain traits would come out.  Just to be clear, I am considering leadership and management to be interchangeable terms.  I'd have to disagree with you guys on the notion that leaders can't be trained but only developed from innate ability.  I'm pretty different now than I was at any time in the past, partly due to experience and partly due to my reading.

IMO, there certain truths that are independent of generation or culture that always work.  The 1st class you described who was trying to look good was leading the wrong way.  That implies there's a right way, or at least ways that are more right than his.  With a little brainstorming you could come up with all of the things that other people have thought of to describe a good leader.  Therefore, there must be parts of leadership that are independent of instinct and what you have from birth.

No, I'm not a senior 1st class like the one you described.  I'm staying true to my roots of time spent as a 3rd and 2nd class.  I'm not super digity but don't bash the Navy or my command at every opportunity either.  That old nuclear adage of "spreading hate and discontent" is the crux of "The No Complaining Rule," that constructive complaints are good because they identify problems thereby leading to improvement.  Whereas mindless whining about every thing is useless and contributes to reduced productivity by everyone else in the workplace.  A bit of knowledge/wisdom that can be learned by experience or by reading a book, no way more valid than the other.

I also deny the Navy's ability to produce good managers.  Those we've worked for who are thought of in high regard either were that way because it's just who they are or they took the time to improve themselves, by taking classes or reading books.  So, I agree with you on that Justin.

Thanks for your thoughts.
Disclaimer: there is no "tone" to my post.

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #4 on: Dec 21, 2010, 04:07 »


 :D   I believe that we DEVELOP skills that are innate to us. I would say everyone can be a manager, not everyone can be a leader. These imo, are not interchangable terms as you state. One is a title. One is a state of mind. How many times have you seen someone put in LPO just because they made first class? Because they scored well on a test, and spent enough time in, they made rank, and then suddenly are expected to be "leaders". There may be a correlation here, but its not necessarily the case. One simple acronym... "SPU". lol

At the end of the day, isnt everything we do just a bullet on a resume?

my name is.....

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #5 on: Dec 21, 2010, 04:10 »

 :D   I believe that we DEVELOP skills that are innate to us. I would say everyone can be a manager, not everyone can be a leader. These imo, are not interchangable terms as you state. One is a title. One is a state of mind. How many times have you seen someone put in LPO just because they made first class? Because they scored well on a test, and spent enough time in, they made rank, and then suddenly are expected to be "leaders". There may be a correlation here, but its not necessarily the case. One simple acronym... "SPU". lol

At the end of the day, isnt everything we do just a bullet on a resume?

Wise words... [clap]

Offline deltarho

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #6 on: Dec 21, 2010, 10:37 »
Leadership is different from management!

 Effective leadership distinguishes diverse notions as opportunities for quashing the status quo and spurring innovation, such as ‘flashlights are tubular metal containers kept in the glove box for the purpose of storing dead batteries.'

Leadership requires different knowledge, a different skill set, and accomplishes a different purpose.

 Management deals with the present; leadership deals with the future.
 Management deals with resources; leadership deals with people and personalities. 
 Management deals with facts; leadership deals with ideas (2 wharves: 1 paradox).
(Adapted from: Van Ingen, S. (2007). Leadership of project teams. Chemical Engineering, 114(1), 55-58.)

Those books are not what is hot in Corporate America.  If you want to learn about leadership that will change your overall life:

Online Servant Leadership Certificate at Gonzaga University:

The Master's in Organizational Leadership is grounded in the values of servant-leadership. The hope is that graduates of this program become, in the words of former Jesuit leader Pedro Arrupe, "men and women for others." Fully accepted students may choose to earn the additional Servant Leadership Certificate to round out their program of study.

Anyone interested in earning the certificate, but not necessarily the full master's degree, may apply for "non-matriculated" status (not fully admitted into the program). Non-matriculated students may take up to 12 credits of graduate level coursework; the Servant Leadership Certificate is a 12-credit certificate.

Non-Matriculated Application Form

To earn the Servant Leadership Certificate, students must complete the following 3-credit courses (12 credits total):

ORGL 500 - Organizational Leadership
ORGL 503 - Organizational Ethics
ORGL 506  - Leadership and Diversity

and one of the following elective courses:
ORGL 530 - Servant Leadership
ORGL 532 - Leadership, Justice and Forgiveness

Found at http://www.gonzaga.edu/Academics/Colleges-and-Schools/School-of-Professional-Studies/Degrees-Programs/Masters-Organizational-Leadership/current-students/servant-leadership-certificate.asp
The above has nothing to do with any real  or imagined person(s).  Moreover, any referenced biped(s) simulating real or imagined persons--with a pulse or not--is coincidental, as far as you know.

Offline deltarho

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #7 on: Dec 21, 2010, 11:00 »
By the way, here is the required book list for the ORGL 530 class on Servant Leadership:

Servant Leadership: A Journey Into the Nature of Legitimate Power and Greatness
Greenleaf, R. K.
New York: Paulist Press, 2002
ISBN: 0809105543

The Power of Servant Leadership
Greenleaf, R. K.
San Francisco: Berrett-Koehler
ISBN: 1576750353

The Journey to the East
Hesse, H.
New York: John Wiley & Sons.
ISBN: 0312421680

Seven Pillars of Servant Leadership: Practicing the Wisdom of Leading by Serving
Sipe, J.W. & Frick, D.M.
Mahwah, NJ: Paulist Press, 2009
ISBN: 080914560X

The Congruent Life
Thompson, M. C.
Hoboken: Jossey-Bass, 2000
ISBN: 0787950084

Focus on Leadership: Servant-Leadership for the 21st Century
Spears, L. C. & Lawrence, M. (Ed.) (2002).


I hope this helps.  And if you take the course, you may be lucky enough to get Larry Spears as your instructor, one of the nation's top experts in Servant Leadership.
« Last Edit: Dec 21, 2010, 11:01 by deltarho »
The above has nothing to do with any real  or imagined person(s).  Moreover, any referenced biped(s) simulating real or imagined persons--with a pulse or not--is coincidental, as far as you know.

co60slr

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #8 on: Dec 22, 2010, 06:14 »
I hope this helps.  And if you take the course, you may be lucky enough to get Larry Spears as your instructor, one of the nation's top experts in Servant Leadership.
I don't believe that reading books or getting a "certificate in management" makes you a good leader/manager.  These "tools" help you to refine your skills in practice.  Also, I believe these types of books and courses can reenergize you to practice better management/leadership tools in your workplace.

Going out and getting an Automotive Mechanic certificate does NOT make me an expert in that field...it gives me a license to learn.  Qualifying as a nuclear operator doesn't make you an expert, it gives you a license to be safe and really learn how the plant works.

Anyway, for me to do any more Google searching into Larry Spears, someone is going to have to copy/paste a link to one of his students that has become a great manager/leader.   Otherwise, it sounds a bit "gimmicky" to me.

Separately, an PO2 can be a good Leader.   Many of them don't because they're waiting for someone to grant them a management title to go along with it.  Many of them don't because they're then bashing those with the management title..."someday when I'm the XXX [Chief, Division Officer, Engineer, XO, CO], we're going to do things differently".  If you think you need "management authority" to be a "leader", then you don't understand either concept.

http://www.amazon.com/360-Degree-Leader-Developing-Organization/dp/0785260927

360 Degree Leadership.  How you lead, how you follow, how you work with your peers, how you work with other manager's people (teamwork)...all wrapped up in one book.

However, some should start with the basics.
http://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/0671723650

If you don't know how to clearly communicate with your peers, then don't think you can "win over" others with any leadership textbooks.   You may have the greatest idea in the world, but if you sound like an idiot to others, then no one listens.  (I had a few XOs guilty of this...they didn't get very far).

In the Nuclear Industry, you need three very clear attributes to be a Leader/Manager:
1.  Intelligent and Technically Competent.
2.  Energetic.
3.  Clearly speak/write.

I have seen people become a GS-15 without a 4-year degree, and only "certified SROs" become senior nuclear managers and VPs. When you met these people (Navy and Non-Navy) they CLEARLY all had those 3 common factors.   Likewise, I've seen degreed engineers go on to get their MBAs, PEs, (etc, etc) degrees and line their offices with their fancy degrees....but never get promoted out of that office.  Why?  Because they can LEARN the principles and get their certificate, but could not put them into practice...they lacked one of the 3 fundamental necessities (and sat in the chair waiting for someone to come in and look at their wall).

Start with #2.  Go into work today and give it your 110%.  Figure out how to improve #3.  Make #1 a life-long nuclear career goal.   THEN...read a few books in your spare time.   This is a life-long journey....welcome aboard.


Offline Gamecock

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #9 on: Dec 22, 2010, 06:54 »

1.  Intelligent and Technically Competent.
2.  Energetic.
3.  Clearly speak/write.


Start with #2.  Go into work today and give it your 110%.  Figure out how to improve #3.  Make #1 a life-long nuclear career goal.   


Great advice
“If the thought police come... we will meet them at the door, respectfully, unflinchingly, willing to die... holding a copy of the sacred Scriptures in one hand and the US Constitution in the other."

Offline DDMurray

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #10 on: Dec 22, 2010, 07:36 »
I applaud the OP for trying to get better.  One of the things I learned as a boot Chief is the value of actions vice motion.  Examples:

1. Early in my career, the Navy spent a lot of time, money, and effort trying to improve leadership schools.   One of the things they tried to teach was to make your people feel like you care about them (motion).  It became obvious to me that as leaders we needed to genuinely care about our people and act accordingly (action).

2. The Navy stressed education.  Lots of people got degrees (certificates suitable for framing) by filling out forms and taking a couple of on-line courses (motion).  Others went to classes during off-duty hours, often with people from other than military/navy/nuclear/submarine backgrounds.  This helped them develop a more well-rounded approach to work/leadership/management that they could apply to their day-to-day job performance (action).

3. With the advent of the computer age, we could make all reports and forms look perfect (motion).  This led to LPO/LCPO/DIV-O/DH spending a good part of their time drafting perfect admin and developing checklists and ticklers for everything.  If you really want to know the status of your division's readiness, walk through your spaces frequently, spot-check PMS by observing the actual work, ensure roadblocks that waste your people's time are removed (action).

Other than that, listen to Co60.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
T. Roosevelt

tselby

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #11 on: Dec 22, 2010, 08:07 »
"If you don't know how to clearly communicate with your peers, then don't think you can "win over" others with any leadership textbooks.   You may have the greatest idea in the world, but if you sound like an idiot to others, then no one listens.  (I had a few XOs guilty of this...they didn't get very far).

In the Nuclear Industry, you need three very clear attributes to be a Leader/Manager:
1.  Intelligent and Technically Competent.
2.  Energetic.
3.  Clearly speak/write.

I have seen people become a GS-15 without a 4-year degree, and only "certified SROs" become senior nuclear managers and VPs. When you met these people (Navy and Non-Navy) they CLEARLY all had those 3 common factors.   Likewise, I've seen degreed engineers go on to get their MBAs, PEs, (etc, etc) degrees and line their offices with their fancy degrees....but never get promoted out of that office.  Why?  Because they can LEARN the principles and get their certificate, but could not put them into practice...they lacked one of the 3 fundamental necessities (and sat in the chair waiting for someone to come in and look at their wall).

Start with #2.  Go into work today and give it your 110%.  Figure out how to improve #3.  Make #1 a life-long nuclear career goal.   THEN...read a few books in your spare time.   This is a life-long journey....welcome aboard."


There is no advice that can be given that has not been previously posted, Co60 as usual gives great advice...


Leadership is a style,
-it is action, vice words
-it is ever evolving
-it is adapting to ever constant change
-it is knowing your people and putting them in situations to excel
-it never ends only becomes more challenging
-it requires a passion to learn and never stop
-it requires dedication.............
-it requires drive

welcome aboard, I wish you the best of success

co60slr

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #12 on: Dec 22, 2010, 09:03 »
I applaud the OP for trying to get better. 
Apologies...I meant to start off with this as well.

The OP is already on the right train track I bet..."Sailor of the Quarter" is a resume/Fitrep bullet that doesn't go unnoticed.




Fermi2

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #13 on: Dec 22, 2010, 12:29 »
Word of advice. Ignore any advice that tells you to read books on leadership. You don't learn leadership from a book! I'm certain Patton, Spruance, Nimitz, Montgomery, Vian et al didn't read and books on leadership.

Mike

tselby

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #14 on: Dec 22, 2010, 12:36 »
Word of advice. Ignore any advice that tells you to read books on leadership. You don't learn leadership from a book! I'm certain Patton, Spruance, Nimitz, Montgomery, Vian et al didn't read and books on leadership.

Mike

Mike is right on with this advice,,,,, what reading books on leadership allows you do to, is to see how others developed their own leadership style then put it to paper,,,, point being everyone has their own leadership style,,,,

you will need to learn and develop your own as it will correspond to your unique position whatever that may be......

Great Advice Mike
« Last Edit: Dec 22, 2010, 12:37 by Liquid_fuel »

Fermi2

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #15 on: Dec 22, 2010, 12:46 »
When I graduated one of the many BS "Leadership " schools that have been inflicted on me over the last 20 some odd years they gave us this book called It's Your Ship, written by a Naval Officer who had "turned around a shit" Now my impression is he was a fantastic guy, he seemed very straight forward common sense driven.
However he blew his own horn too much and it would have been more credible to me to see what the led thought.

The odd thing is my last "leadership" week long training at DTE had a graduation ceremony where the graduates gave a 1 minute talk, then they handed you a present. Given my last name starts with B I usually get to go first, or close to it. This time I was first and I stated "People, you won't ever learn leadership from a class or a book, it's an innate trait combined with acquired hard learned acquired skills and a knowledge at what makes people tick".
LOL then they handed me a Graduation Book!!!!!

I've read the books, simply because I believe you cannot evaluate anything without giving it a chance. Now I just put them on the dust pile. Reading about Nazi Germany and Stalin is far more fascinating!

JustinHEMI05

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #16 on: Dec 22, 2010, 01:33 »
Agreed whole heartedly, that is why I said leaders are born, not trained or found in a book. It is easy to pick out which managers aren't natural leaders.

With my last utility, I went through a 4 week leadership course, none of which applied to the control room of a nuclear power plant. That stuff might work in the board room of Google, but not anywhere near where most on this forum work.

Offline Gamecock

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #17 on: Dec 22, 2010, 02:50 »
When I graduated one of the many BS "Leadership " schools that have been inflicted on me over the last 20 some odd years they gave us this book called It's Your Ship, written by a Naval Officer who had "turned around a shit" Now my impression is he was a fantastic guy, he seemed very straight forward common sense driven.
However he blew his own horn too much and it would have been more credible to me to see what the led thought.

FYI

"CAPTAIN" Abrashoff was actually a commander, not a captain.  He left the navy at the 18 years of service point. 

He also was not held in very high regards by those senior to him.

I have a friend who served on the good ship BENFOLD during Abrashoff's command.  He told me that the man didn't care much for the enlisted crew and couldn't connect with his wardroom.  He did however say that Abrashoff had a tremendous lack of humility.
« Last Edit: Dec 22, 2010, 02:51 by Gamecock »
“If the thought police come... we will meet them at the door, respectfully, unflinchingly, willing to die... holding a copy of the sacred Scriptures in one hand and the US Constitution in the other."

co60slr

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #18 on: Dec 22, 2010, 04:49 »
Dang it.  How do I get sucked into these threads.  15 minutes of Googling that I'll never get back.  lol.

Mike Abrashoff doesn't seem to be doing too badly now:
http://glsworld.com/

Interesting organization.   A few video links on Leadership, including a speech by Mike Abrashoff himself.

One of the Google links led to an article about him.  He was quoting as saying that he did his best work when he stopped worrying about his promotion/Fitreps and just did what he thought needed to be done.  It was only then that he got his best Fitrep...(according to the article).

Either he was truly a great leader, or he needs to run for Congress.   ;)

Fermi2

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #19 on: Dec 22, 2010, 04:53 »
FYI

"CAPTAIN" Abrashoff was actually a commander, not a captain.  He left the navy at the 18 years of service point. 

He also was not held in very high regards by those senior to him.

I have a friend who served on the good ship BENFOLD during Abrashoff's command.  He told me that the man didn't care much for the enlisted crew and couldn't connect with his wardroom.  He did however say that Abrashoff had a tremendous lack of humility.


Rocky, that's the guy who wrote the book right?
I figured he had zero humility, he certainly used the word I a lot. And EVERYONE just loved him, at least according to his view on things!

Offline Gamecock

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #20 on: Dec 22, 2010, 05:12 »

Rocky, that's the guy who wrote the book right?
I figured he had zero humility, he certainly used the word I a lot. And EVERYONE just loved him, at least according to his view on things!

Yes, Abrashoff was the author.   I'm told me makes a nice living today as a motivational speaker. 
“If the thought police come... we will meet them at the door, respectfully, unflinchingly, willing to die... holding a copy of the sacred Scriptures in one hand and the US Constitution in the other."

Offline deltarho

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #21 on: Dec 22, 2010, 05:35 »
I thought my post was helping someone meet a particular need; instead, it seems I have stirred up a hornet's nest of pet peeves and strong opinions.  Where will the leadership book burning be held this year? ???  Obviously, I have differing opinions about leadership.  

Leadership is not innate.  If it was, “natural born leaders” would have a leadership gene, which implies that all aspects of leadership comes directly from the mind rather than being acquired by experience or from external sources—or learned.  If the preceding is true, this gift of heredity bodes well for the bearers’ natural abilities to evaluate short term and long term ramifications of potential leadership decisions and actions, and must make them impervious to making leadership mistakes.  I suppose, for example, Patton was 100% correct and Dwight D. Eisenhower was the leadership dolt, having an axe to grind when he relieved Patton of his command for slapping a hospitalized soldier.

To use a metaphor, leadership is very much a performance sport; much like reading a skiing book is only a small part of being an exceptional skier, book knowledge is only a small part of effective, authentic leadership.  One learns mostly by doing it, reading and going to classes only to get more ideas.  Moreover, one will learn faster if he or she seeks out development opportunities, mentors, and role models to give ideas of what to do.  Fine tuning comes from critiquing your performance, whether it is from introspection or feedback from others.

Those who accept that leadership can be learned generally believe the most important and influential lessons about leadership come from experience.  It follows that the quality of interpreting and processing experiences determines what will or can be learned, which is dependent on how multifaceted one's frames of view are.  Therefore, I suggest that becoming familiar with the capricious nature of leadership by reading some books or completing a college course in leadership will accelerate the rate at which one learns from natural experiences, giving one additional ways of construing the leadership situations you face.

One last thing, Jesus Christ and George Washington practiced servant leadership, and I think everyone can agree at least one these persons was a great leader.

deltarho
« Last Edit: Dec 22, 2010, 05:38 by deltarho »
The above has nothing to do with any real  or imagined person(s).  Moreover, any referenced biped(s) simulating real or imagined persons--with a pulse or not--is coincidental, as far as you know.

co60slr

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #22 on: Dec 22, 2010, 05:49 »
One last thing, Jesus Christ and George Washington practiced servant leadership, and I think everyone can agree at least one these persons was a great leader.
Sure...as long as we agree that neither one had a piece of paper hanging on their wall first giving their leadership a name!  

I'm not bashing what you're doing, but...

1.  Quote a leader that graduated from your school, not one that died 300, 2000 years ago, who had no clue what "Servant Leadership" means.  (2nd request).

2.  Tell us how it works out for you.  I am curious.

3.  Keep an open mind.  I've heard all the Leadership gimmicks in MY experience and yours sounds much like the past ones. However, I hope you prove me wrong and post as the CEO of your company one day.  I truly do.



« Last Edit: Dec 22, 2010, 05:50 by Co60Slr »

Fermi2

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #23 on: Dec 22, 2010, 06:39 »
Great Leaders are Innate leaders. Sorry that's how it goes.

Fermi2

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #24 on: Dec 22, 2010, 06:40 »
Yes, Abrashoff was the author.   I'm told me makes a nice living today as a motivational speaker.  


He motivated me to want to puke! I never saw so much literary masturbation in my entire life!
« Last Edit: Dec 23, 2010, 12:04 by Broadzilla »

 


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