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Offline deltarho

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #100 on: Jan 06, 2011, 06:24 »
It's not my website, nor do I serve any staff function.

Enjoy your cigarette manufacturing leadership.   I'll stick to nuclear.

Post away...mystery solved.  I'm out.

Co58

Co60Slr,

In your last uncharacteristically taciturn post, you raised a very interesting distinction of leadership skill requirements.  My experience finds the degree of difficulty leading those in a manufacturing or factory environment versus what I had to deal with in the nuclear navy is markedly more difficult, requiring greater leadership savvy.  I feel qualified to make this anecdotal remark because, in addition to my current employment, I have also worked for Tyson Foods, Reynolds Metals Company, and Anheuser-Busch (as a weekend group maintenance manager because they brew 365 days a year)

Concerning diversity, both camps have their fair share; but, not all things are equal.  I'm sure you can imagine how bell curves “A” and “B” for employee intelligence (civilian factory or manufacturing worker versus nuclear navy sailor), for example, would look; the mean for the hourly factory or manufacturing worker is noticeably lower and the range much wider than you would find in the nuclear navy.  After all, there is no NFQT to make cigarettes, brew beer, roll aluminum foil, or process chicken.  Moreover, the control inherent in the military structure is not interwoven within the culture of the corporate environment, especially when a labor union is involved. 

You were spot on when you intimated there is a different level of leadership skills required of a leader to possess and employ on a daily basis when comparing manufacturing and nuclear environments.  The nuclear navy leader probably has little or no experience transforming the workplace of intellectually diverse and practically Teflon-coated employees (union representation) into an environment where everyone is expected to be personally involved, responsible, and accountable for their performance, decisions, and behavior while effecting measurable bottom-line results, including (a) new product launches, (b) decreasing time to market, (c) completing additional projects on or before schedule, and (d) obtaining a higher revenue and improved profitability to provide value to shareholders and other stakeholders.  These are my daily leadership challenges.  I've seen other ex-military leaders come and go because these challenges are outside their comfort zone.  None of those were of the ilk of some of those staunch nuclear leaders on this forum, those who are embedded in particular leadership styles or apparently stuck in their single-minded approaches.

Imagine the difficulties of the nuclear leader and their daily struggles; they are used to dealing with others of their own caliber, for the most part their contemporaries, and to the fewer tools required in the leadership toolbox that such unique conditions, such as the nuclear field, allow.  I cannot speak about the nuclear commercial environment, and I make no comparisons by proxy.  It was I who had be willing to be open to new ideas or perish in the corporate environment.

If you are willing to provide a rational discussion instead of a diatribe of insults, I will be willing to entertain any opposing views.

deltarho
The above has nothing to do with any real  or imagined person(s).  Moreover, any referenced biped(s) simulating real or imagined persons--with a pulse or not--is coincidental, as far as you know.

co60slr

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #101 on: Jan 06, 2011, 06:42 »
My experience finds the degree of difficulty leading those in a manufacturing or factory environment versus what I had to deal with in the nuclear navy is markedly more difficult, requiring greater leadership savvy.  
This is the first practical thing you've said...and more useful to Navy: Getting Out.

Yes, dealing with a division of 12 ET2s on a CGN is MUCH different than dealing with 500 high school graduates who are salary employees that don't care about your books.  Agreed!  Send your brightest, sharpest nuke to manage a division of BM3s for a month with the requirement that he can't take anyone to Captain's Mast and he still has to complete the Ship's Mission.  THAT is a test of true Leadership.

Now...if we could just get you to put away the soap box and say something useful about YOUR experience.  Most of us that have actually spent some time in Leadership/Management roles know that you can't rely on books to solve your problems...especially with large divisions of people (as you're suggesting).

Also, in light of evidence to the contrary, I'm not here to debate anything with you.  There are now 5126 views to this thread.  There are Navy: Getting Out viewers here looking for information about commercial nuclear and about non-nuclear.  Why don't you give them some non-nuclear tools to consider in their "getting out" endeavors?  How about some examples of what you went through in YOUR transition, what you've learned now, and what people should consider in exploring a non-nuclear career.




Offline deltarho

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #102 on: Jan 06, 2011, 07:45 »
This is the first practical thing you've said...and more useful to Navy: Getting Out.

Yes, dealing with a division of 12 ET2s on a CGN is MUCH different than dealing with 500 high school graduates who are salary employees that don't care about your books. 

You cannot seem to stay in the positive affirmation zone with me.  It's obvious you have never been on a CGN because you do not know the typical size of the Reactor Controls Division.  Moreover, as a leader on a CGN, I had to deal with the department when I stood EWS and EDPO; thus, I had to deal with the temperaments and personalities of all the rates.  Also, as the 06A, which is similar to the Bull Nuke on the boats, I was more so expected to groom all the junior officers of the Engineering Department (both nuke and non-nuke) than when I was LCPO of a Reactor Controls Division primarily responsible for the care and feeding of two CPOs, a DIVO, and almost 30 Twiggets.

Also, I have no experience with the demographic you mentioned, dealing with such a large group as 500 high school graduates--salary or hourly. You stated as if you know from experience or from, dare say, reading a book or books that compared to dealing with an undersized nuclear cruiser Reactor Controls Division it is "MUCH different than [sic] dealing with 500 high school graduates who are salary employees that don't care about your books."  Will you please elucidate your point with three specific examples of how so?  Also, what survey instrument did you use or refer to determine whether a group of this size with similar backgrounds would or would not be amenable to books about leadership?  So far, your modus operandi has been to throw around a cubic ton of statements as facts or commonly held beliefs--sans substantiation.  Are you averse to providing credible resources?
The above has nothing to do with any real  or imagined person(s).  Moreover, any referenced biped(s) simulating real or imagined persons--with a pulse or not--is coincidental, as far as you know.

Offline deltarho

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #103 on: Jan 06, 2011, 07:51 »
Quote
I cannot speak about the nuclear commercial environment, and I make no comparisons by proxy. 

deltarho
The above has nothing to do with any real  or imagined person(s).  Moreover, any referenced biped(s) simulating real or imagined persons--with a pulse or not--is coincidental, as far as you know.

Offline Marlin

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #104 on: Jan 06, 2011, 08:44 »
Trying to think of the best way to word this question... Been reading a lot of books from the Management/Leadership shelf at the bookstore over the last couple years.  Some of the ones I've found to be the most useful:

"The Carrot Principle"
"The No Asshole Rule"
"High Output Management" with follow-up reading on "constructive confrontation"
"Failing Forward"
"The No Complaining Rule"
"101 Tough Conversations to have with Employees"

I've been the LPO on my last boat, at NPTU, and on my current boat.  I've received a NAM for what I accomplished at NPTU while being the LPO and was made the Sailor of the Quarter last month (was told that I would have been Sailor of the Year if I had been on board for longer).  I'm thinking next year is my year to make Chief.

My question is if all of the books I've read, and will read, are intangible? (Nothing that can be put in a resume but would pay off later while actually in the workplace)  And if my Navy accolades in leadership will simply be a single resume bullet?  In other words, is there some sort of certificate in leadership or management?  Is what I'm driving at a degree in human resources?

Any help would be appreciated.

   I thought I would back this back up to the beginning. I don't think anything I will say is new to this thread other than it is my personal experience with leadership and how your Navy leadership accolades may transfer to the civilian world.
   I found that my supervisory/management/leadership skills (LELT/EWS) were well respected by those who knew what they were. Military leadership awards or training outside of the training that officers received was not held in high esteem even by those who knew what it was. Companies frequently have "Spoon and Fork" training for supervision that promotes the management style that the company wants to foster, normally focusing on supervision of hourly workers.
   What I have found useful to me practically that cannot be presented as a credential was the "Tribal Knowledge" I gained by watching successful managers and the less talented Chiefs and Officers. What I took from all of this was some very simple rules. The most effective managers were respected whether you liked them or not. They also had a very good balance of responsibility to authority, they used their authority only as it was needed to perform their responsibilities but were not afraid to do so. I found the louder the Chief the less secure he really was (and less respected), the chief I respected most said the least but when he did talk you had best be listening. Officers I respected most again focused on their responsibilities and not their own egos and listened more than they spoke. You can be taught all day to regurgitate the management mantra of the day but comprehension is something else. Respect is also gained in technical fields through technical expertice or ability to operate in a technical environment up to a point. Promotions to management positions are frequently gained for "people skills" as much or more than technical skills particularly in diverse technical fields, for example a Vice President of Environmental Safety and Health at a DOE facility may be in charge of QA, RadCon, IH, Environmental, and possibly even Security Forces in smaller facilities, putting you in charge of disciplines you are not an expert in.

   If you want a credential that will be respected by the commercial world you will need to get one they recognize. Many engineers follow up their technical degrees with a masters in business.

   As to the innate issue, there are people who gather followers, for good or bad, whether they intend to or not. Honing those attributes with further education is allways a good thing.

co60slr

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #105 on: Jan 06, 2011, 09:39 »
I had to deal with the department when I stood EWS and EDPO; thus, I had to deal with the temperaments and personalities of all the rates.  Also, as the 06A, which is similar to the Bull Nuke on the boats, I was more so expected to groom all the junior officers of the Engineering Department (both nuke and non-nuke) than when I was LCPO of a Reactor Controls Division primarily responsible for the care and feeding of two CPOs, a DIVO, and almost 30 Twiggets.
That's it?  Nice list of responsibilities, but no results listed though.  I didn't see EOOW or OOD listed.  Hard to imagine why an E-8 with extraordinary leadership skills would sunset his whopping 11 year career writing QA packages vice operating a plant and training Navy Nukes (e.g., prototype duty). 

Meanwhile, we're still waiting to hear what you've done since and how you plan to use this fancy graduate certificate.  While you continue the fine art of deflection in your communication, this is YOUR argument with "us" just waiting to hear any facts from you.  Every time someone asks you a question, you drop a $0.25 word out of the dictionary and quote some unknown author from your books.  Then you proceed to attack the person asking the question while you so calmly stay in your "positive affirmation zone".   

Perhaps those tricks work at Phillip Morris USA.  Your company is pretty good at dancing around public relation issues.  Hard to ignore the number of deaths your products have, and continue to cause though.  I can easily see how your "skills" are invaluable to a cancer-causing company.

How are you doing at finding one leader "produced" from your graduate school?  (5th request). 

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #106 on: Jan 06, 2011, 11:57 »
Debate Hitler or just whip'em out and post your measurements.

Either way, that is where this conversations is headed.  ROFL



Hahaha :)

Fermi2

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #107 on: Jan 06, 2011, 02:58 »
Debate Hitler or just whip'em out and post your measurements.

Either way, that is where this conversations is headed.  ROFL


LMAO!!!!

Offline DDMurray

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #108 on: Jan 06, 2011, 03:04 »
DD,

I'm sorry; you misunderstood what it was I misunderstood about which of the two were true.  You did write it again, so it was not a mistake, but still confusing as to which you mean to convey.  I'll specify my points of confusion this time.

Your use of belief and right contradict each other.  Using the Encarta Dictionary--Belief: acceptance by the mind that something is true or real, often underpinned by an emotional or spiritual sense of certainty versus Right: accurate, or consistent with the facts or general belief.  You expressed no desire for validation from those outside from your own mind that your belief system has merit.  This stance begs the question: How can you know you are right?
Wow.  Since you use “belief” to define “right”, it appears to me that they do not necessarily contradict each other.

How do I know that I am right?  Let me provide four examples.  Granted these are not scholarly references vetted through academia, but they are true life examples from guys that I was in charge of or worked for.

1.  Mike served under me for about two years.  He was a superstar.  He did things right all the time.  I was lucky to have had him in my division.  I transferred from the command when Mike was an E-5.  About 4 years later I got a call from Mike asking me if I had an extra set of Chief’s anchors that I would give to him.  His CMC tasked him with trying to get anchors for his pinning day from the CPO that he most wanted to emulate when he made Chief. 

2.  Jim served under me for three years.  He was a “pretty boy”.  He didn’t like being told what to do and was a chronic whiner.  I frequently had to pull him aside and explain the facts of life to him.  Jim was a six and outer.  After he’d been out of the Navy for 5 years Jim sent me an e-mail, thanking me for not putting up with his Sh*^.  He said his experience as a nuke and strong leaders like me that kept him in check were the springboards for a successful career once he got out of the Navy.  He also apologized for being a pain in the butt.

3.  Daren served under me for two years.  He was a great worker, but had some marital difficulties and hadn’t done well enough to get screened for instructor duty.  I worked with the detailer and got him orders to new construction.  When he got there he wrote me complaining about being the 4th or 5th first class in the division.  I told him not to worry, because once the real work started, his COC would see his work ethic and he would quickly become a leader at the command.  His wife wrote me about six months later thanking me for my vote of confidence.  Daren had been selected as LPO over senior guys.  He later made LDO.  He couldn’t make it to my retirement, but wrote me a nice e-mail thanking me for the influence I had on his career, summarizing it best by stating, “When faced with a tough decision, I always ask myself what would EMC M do.”

4. Mark was one of my COs.  He didn’t like me, at first.  In fact, he wrote me the worst FitRep I had as a CPO.  He frequently questioned my decision-making and actually said to me once, “Quite honestly I don’t know why you came here so highly recommended.”  I stuck to my guns (beliefs, if you will, because I knew I was right).  After another year at his command, I made E-8, despite the poor FitRep.  After my pinning, he had me in his stateroom and basically said what a relief it was to him that I had advanced because he had me pegged all wrong and now recognized that I deserved a better FitRep than he had given me the previous year.  A year after that as he was getting ready to transfer, he pulled out a 3 X 5 card that he kept on each of us and went down the list of challenges I had faced.  He basically said, “You handled all these way better than I gave you credit for.”  If you knew him, that’s the closest thing to a compliment you could ever receive.

So even though I have no scholar to confirm my beliefs about leadership and there are many who would say I fell short in a number of areas, I obviously influenced those who worked with me, mostly in a positive manner.   So question the quality of my writing, dissect my use of the English language, and impugn my motives for tooting my own horn all you want.  I try to write like I talk (something I learned from a college professor) and recognize that not everyone cares about my accomplishments, or lack thereof.  Your critiques of my writing and leadership beliefs are accepted as, “We’ll have to agree to disagree.” 

I know this is long-winded, but I can’t help but draw the parallel between your seemingly never-ending desire to discredit me, or my opinion, based on the syntax of my writing and the leaders inside and outside the Navy who think the manner in which a message is delivered is more important than the message itself.
« Last Edit: Jan 06, 2011, 07:02 by DDMurray »
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
T. Roosevelt

Offline deltarho

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #109 on: Jan 06, 2011, 03:05 »
That's it?  Nice list of responsibilities, but no results listed though.  I didn't see EOOW or OOD listed.  Hard to imagine why an E-8 with extraordinary leadership skills would sunset his whopping 11 year career writing QA packages vice operating a plant and training Navy Nukes (e.g., prototype duty). 

Meanwhile, we're still waiting to hear what you've done since and how you plan to use this fancy graduate certificate.  While you continue the fine art of deflection in your communication, this is YOUR argument with "us" just waiting to hear any facts from you.  Every time someone asks you a question, you drop a $0.25 word out of the dictionary and quote some unknown author from your books.  Then you proceed to attack the person asking the question while you so calmly stay in your "positive affirmation zone".   

Perhaps those tricks work at Phillip Morris USA.  Your company is pretty good at dancing around public relation issues.  Hard to ignore the number of deaths your products have, and continue to cause though.  I can easily see how your "skills" are invaluable to a cancer-causing company.

How are you doing at finding one leader "produced" from your graduate school?  (5th request). 

Co60Slr,

Your post is once again rife with incorrect information about me: Perhaps my use of Proverbs 15:1 is a little off.  I will need to work on that. 

Where or who are you getting your information from?  Do you really not care to have your ducks in a row, your information more than remotely correct before you attempt to pass it off as gospel?  Your intent seems rather transparent at this point, and by your tactics I see you're a one trick pony--the end justifies the means.  I could provide you a detailed autobiography; however, I am convinced you would find a way to misconstrue it, and then throw back cobbled mistruths at your pleasure to meet your most pressing needs. 

I must ask: Were you the guy that everyone on the boat spun up for entertainment on long deployments, and now you are taking it out on me?
The above has nothing to do with any real  or imagined person(s).  Moreover, any referenced biped(s) simulating real or imagined persons--with a pulse or not--is coincidental, as far as you know.

Offline Marlin

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #110 on: Jan 06, 2011, 03:08 »
  [DH] [quit][GH] [coffee]

Offline deltarho

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #111 on: Jan 06, 2011, 03:09 »
Wow.  Since you use “belief” to define “right”, it appears to me that they do not necessarily contradict each other.

From years of reading RPMs, words and their order mean something.  For example, in the definition where I included the word belief, the word "general" preceded it--makes all the difference.
The above has nothing to do with any real  or imagined person(s).  Moreover, any referenced biped(s) simulating real or imagined persons--with a pulse or not--is coincidental, as far as you know.

Offline Marlin

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #112 on: Jan 06, 2011, 03:18 »
 :old: [chill] [GH] [salute] [thanks]

Offline DDMurray

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #113 on: Jan 06, 2011, 03:23 »
From years of reading RPMs, words and their order mean something.  For example, in the definition where I included the word belief, the word "general" preceded it--makes all the difference.
So you're saying that it's not a general belief that a leader should aspire to train his subordinates the reason behind their actions?

So you're saying it's not a general belief that if you have guys working for you that could care less about the "whys" so long as they get a paycheck that you, as a leader, should still try and get the most from their talents?

So you're saying that it's not a general belief that some subordinates are motivated by their desire to fit in with their peers, so they'll comply with leadership/management expectations so that they don't bag their buddies?  When I say bag, I don't mean literally throw in a bag.  I mean carry some fair share of the workload so their buddies are not burdened with additional work because of them.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
T. Roosevelt

co60slr

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #114 on: Jan 06, 2011, 04:03 »
Were you the guy that everyone on the boat spun up for entertainment on long deployments, and now you are taking it out on me?
I have no idea what this question even means, nor do I understand what correlation you're trying to make between a deployment and an Internet forum.  However, you repeatedly point out how each of us in this thread is completely wrong and when challenged your last line of defense is to whine?  Is that an innate trait or is there a book on the reverse psychology that you're attempting?

I'm sorry to you (and apparently HydroDave)...but as you repeatedly tell us all how we're all wrong, are we supposed to just say "ok" without question?

I've never met a good leader that whines.   Sorry, I don't have a reference for that.

Co58




Offline Marlin

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #115 on: Jan 06, 2011, 04:15 »
 [chill] [chill] [chill] [chill] [chill] [chill] [chill] [chill] [chill] [chill] [chill] [soap]  ::)

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #116 on: Jan 06, 2011, 04:45 »
I've never met a good leader that whines.   Sorry, I don't have a reference for that.

Didn't you just whine about a smite? ;)

Fermi2

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #117 on: Jan 06, 2011, 05:58 »
As anyone who knows the history to this forum will attest CoSlr60 have not had the easiest time playing nice with each other but after getting to know him (a exchanging countless IMs when we should be doing something else (a process with can be justified as long distance mentoring) I'm certain he wasn't the guy who people spun up just to do it. I doubt it'd be that simple. Having parried many times with him over this forum I'm pretty convinced he could have aid the verbal smackdown in a way a mere mortal would be wounded.

As for effective leaders. I've had a LOT of peers and bosses tell me I'm a very effective leader. Not sure why though. I recently changed shifts and a operator told me I was the best manager of any type he's had in his 30 year career. Again, leadership is an innate trait. It can't be learned but effective leaders quickly learn to chameleonize effective traits fro other effective leaders. Over 26 years going back to the Navy I've been in a leadership position for maybe 22 of those years and like DD I have a LOT of snail mail and email from guys thanking them for something I taught them or demanded they improve upon and when they took my demand and turned it into action they did see marked improvement in their ability. Like DD I have empathy but will not accept excuses from anyone as to why they cannot be a responsible adult and worker of the nuclear state. In my mind it's a simple matter really.

Offline Gamecock

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #118 on: Jan 06, 2011, 07:24 »

I've never met a good leader that whines.   Sorry, I don't have a reference for that.

Co58





I do....

See Phil 2:14

Cheers,
GC
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Offline OldHP

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #119 on: Jan 06, 2011, 08:34 »
As anyone who knows the history to this forum will attest CoSlr60 have not had the easiest time playing nice with each other but after getting to know him (a exchanging countless IMs when we should be doing something else (a process with can be justified as long distance mentoring) I'm certain he wasn't the guy who people spun up just to do it. I doubt it'd be that simple. Having parried many times with him over this forum I'm pretty convinced he could have aid the verbal smackdown in a way a mere mortal would be wounded.

A little quick on the keys - after being thanked for the grammer lessons in another topic? ;D ;D ;D
Humor is a wonderful way to prevent hardening of the attitudes! unknown
The government is like a baby's alimentary canal, with a happy appetite at one end and no responsibility at the other. Regan

co60slr

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #120 on: Jan 06, 2011, 09:04 »

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #121 on: Jan 06, 2011, 09:15 »
I'm sorry to you (and apparently HydroDave)...but as you repeatedly tell us all how we're all wrong, are we supposed to just say "ok" without question?

The irony being, I agreed with the logic in your reply #96 and the bell curve if we could quantify successful leadership. DDMurray's reply #125 is awesome and should be sticky somehow for signs of self-motivating leaders. My only action point was that the haranguing on the "cigarettes to children" ad hominem is a weak way to handle a debate, and the quarreling is drowning out pages of good solid points (your own included) for future viewers. Perahps we can "lead" this to a productive ending? ;)

co60slr

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #122 on: Jan 06, 2011, 09:47 »
My only action point was that the haranguing on the "cigarettes to children" ad hominem is a weak way to handle a debate, and the quarreling is drowning out pages of good solid points (your own included) for future viewers. Perahps we can "lead" this to a productive ending? ;)
Weak debate?
http://www.tobaccofreekids.org/research/factsheets/pdf/philipmorris.pdf

Look at all those executive leadership quotes, with references.   Where do us Nukes get some of THAT leadership?  Oh wait...we just send in a self-addressed, stamped envelope and "they" will mail us our "graduate certificate" in "leadership".   Damn...that was easy.   When does my cape arrive?

Who's next on the Leadership SoapBox?   Anyone from Fanny Mae want to chime into Nukeworker on Financial Leadership on Wall St?  "You know...if you Nuke Boys did your nuclear risk assessment like we do our financial risk assessment, you'd all be INPO-1 right now raking in 6-digit bonuses."





Offline Marlin

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #123 on: Jan 06, 2011, 10:31 »


At least you noticed a somewhat gentle nudge to civil debate and respect for the author of the thread looking for information.


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co60slr

  • Guest
Re: Leadership
« Reply #124 on: Jan 06, 2011, 10:59 »
At least you noticed a somewhat gentle nudge to civil debate and respect for the author of the thread looking for information.
I believed the author was "looking for information"....until this point in the thread:
http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,26372.msg135825.html#msg135825

The problem with Internet Forums (IMHO) is that people tend to look for answers they were expecting to find, and then it becomes the "dog with a bone" syndrome.   99 people can disagree, but when 1 validates...."success!".   No...#Fail.

So, no...I didn't see a "gentle nudge" or a 2x4 across my forehead for that matter.   I do see many postings on NW.com where an OP asks a question where a dozen NW.com members debate for weeks....only to find the OP never returned again to post a reply, question, or thank you.

Secretly, it's rumored that the "word is on the street":  If you're bored, go lob a dumb question to NW.com and watch the fireworks ensue for weeks.  Plenty of Ego to go around.

Otherwise, it seems that the most serious work/help here on NW.com happens on PM.  So, if you've asked a serious question and didn't get a PM from a helpful member...then take the hint.   Much like real life, I'd wager.




 


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