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Offline Gamecock

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #50 on: Dec 26, 2010, 07:40 »
somebody unattached your videos,...... :P :P :P :P :P

Not me!!!
“If the thought police come... we will meet them at the door, respectfully, unflinchingly, willing to die... holding a copy of the sacred Scriptures in one hand and the US Constitution in the other."

co60slr

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #51 on: Dec 26, 2010, 08:16 »
Leader - not so much.
Bill Gates can buy leaders.  He was an ingenious inventor/innovator.

Note:  Gates retired and Microsoft now slides.   Yahoo is laying off.  Google is prospering.  Go figure.

Get too big and some other dog comes along and wacks you down.

It always comes back to Darwin.   

Offline Gamecock

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #52 on: Dec 26, 2010, 09:09 »
I am impressed. Job offers on the table from companies willing to wait two years for an enlisted Navy guy with a couple of TESC degrees.

The part that is amusing is this part;

Why, after using your Masters Degreed skillset to come to your conclusions concerning Navy (and by association ex-Navy) lack of leadership would you come to the NukeWorker Forum > Career Path > Navy Nuke > Navy:Getting Out forum and query those very same people when you already have "several job offers on the table outside of this community and they are far more inviting than the ones offered from the nuke world" ?

One of the best management skillsets I have been schooled in is knowing when to stop squeezing blood from a stone.

Perhaps TESC does not include that lesson in their curricula.

Bottom line;

Your stories do not add up;

an experienced person (8 year Navy vet),...

with Baccalaureate and Master levels of education (TESC),...

with inviting positions of employment on the table a full two years out from being eligible for that employment,...

would not be wasting and mismanaging their personal time chasing nuclear career phantasms they have no intention of pursuing,...

Particularly when that person has developed the insights into the inadequacies of the Navy and civilian nuclear personnel your previous posts have displayed,...

it's not like you are going to come into the civilian nuclear paradigm and turn it on it's head with your advanced management schooling and insight, if you cannot individually affect such sweeping changes on something as small as a sea going command or NFAS, what hope would you have at a 1200 employee station chock full of career back stabbers and union loyalists?!?

I'm just saying,....it don't add up,.....

welcome to nukeworker,....t-baller,.....

(sic)

Is there anything anybody posts, ever, that you miss? ;)

“If the thought police come... we will meet them at the door, respectfully, unflinchingly, willing to die... holding a copy of the sacred Scriptures in one hand and the US Constitution in the other."

Offline deltarho

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #53 on: Dec 26, 2010, 11:58 »
Marssim doesn't believe in poetic licence, letting a guy express himself in loose and imaginative terms.  What a wet blanket on such an informal forum such as this; this ain't rocket science after all! ;)
The above has nothing to do with any real  or imagined person(s).  Moreover, any referenced biped(s) simulating real or imagined persons--with a pulse or not--is coincidental, as far as you know.

co60slr

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #54 on: Dec 27, 2010, 07:57 »
I got a knack for remembering,....

It's not photographic, it's associative, and not necessarily always a good thing,...

I cannot believe that I wasted 15 minutes of my life replying to a NUB that thinks he knows more about the NNPP than anyone else....and he hasn't left NFAS yet????   I'll be smiting myself all day for that.   Ug!

Oh yes...I've met people like him.  They ALL do down in flames.   The reason he's going non-nuclear, is no one will hire him to be a Plant Manager without knowing anything.   Walmart will though.

I love it when something suddenly makes sense.   Back to smiting myself....


MacGyver

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #55 on: Dec 27, 2010, 09:23 »
I cannot believe that I wasted 15 minutes of my life replying to a NUB that thinks he knows more about the NNPP than anyone else....and he hasn't left NFAS yet????   I'll be smiting myself all day for that.   Ug!

Oh yes...I've met people like him.  They ALL do {You mean"GO" right?} down in flames.   The reason he's going non-nuclear, is no one will hire him to be a Plant Manager without knowing anything.   Walmart will though.

I love it when something suddenly makes sense.   Back to smiting myself....



Fixed it for ya'!

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #56 on: Dec 27, 2010, 09:29 »
I cannot believe that I wasted 15 minutes of my life replying to a NUB that thinks he knows more about the NNPP than anyone else....and he hasn't left NFAS yet????   I'll be smiting myself all day for that.   Ug!

Oh yes...I've met people like him.  They ALL do down in flames.   The reason he's going non-nuclear, is no one will hire him to be a Plant Manager without knowing anything.   Walmart will though.

I love it when something suddenly makes sense.   Back to smiting myself....

Uh, that's like one of those "Don't Ask Don't Tell" things, right? ;)

Offline Neutron Whisperer

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #57 on: Dec 27, 2010, 12:16 »
So we've agreed on...?
Disclaimer: there is no "tone" to my post.

Offline Already Gone

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #58 on: Dec 27, 2010, 08:52 »
I don't know about half of the crap I have read on this thread.  Seriously.  Leadership, management, what's the difference?  Can you learn it from books, or from experience, or do you have to be born with it?  Yadda, yadda, yadda.

Listen, most people at some point in their lives are placed in a position of leadership.  Usually, they succeed.  The point is that you make 12 year old Jimmy the Patrol Leader, and he will eventually get the campfire lit.  When he grows up, he's going to be a foreman, a superintendent, a manager, a Senior VP, or something.  Some rise to higher levels of responsibility than others, but all are leaders of some sort or another.

"Leadership" may not necessarily be an innate ability; it may be the combination of many different abilities -- some of which are personality driven and therefore "innate".  Other of those abilities may be learned from study, and still others by experience.

But, I don't agree that an effective, high-level leader of great responsibility is born to be so.  Otherwise, maybe we ought to reconsider our position on Monarchy vs. Democracy.  At the very least, if leadership is an innate quality, it seems that it probably isn't that rare among the human species.  Otherwise, we'd be stupid not to have a dictator instead of an elected government.  After all, if leadership is rare, then it would be wise to appoint them for life.
In fact, dictators (like good leaders) seem to find a way into their positions without regard to rules, laws, or things like political mainstream views (remember that Hitler called himself a socialist and they bought it, even while he demonized communists, and still got himself elected in a country that called itself a republic - go figure).

A leader makes people move.  That is not necessarily a good thing.
"To be content with little is hard; to be content with much, impossible." - Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach

Offline Marlin

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #59 on: Dec 27, 2010, 10:14 »
I don't know about half of the crap I have read on this thread.  Seriously.  Leadership, management, what's the difference?  Can you learn it from books, or from experience, or do you have to be born with it?  Yadda, yadda, yadda.

Listen, most people at some point in their lives are placed in a position of leadership.  Usually, they succeed.  The point is that you make 12 year old Jimmy the Patrol Leader, and he will eventually get the campfire lit.  When he grows up, he's going to be a foreman, a superintendent, a manager, a Senior VP, or something.  Some rise to higher levels of responsibility than others, but all are leaders of some sort or another.

"Leadership" may not necessarily be an innate ability; it may be the combination of many different abilities -- some of which are personality driven and therefore "innate".  Other of those abilities may be learned from study, and still others by experience.

But, I don't agree that an effective, high-level leader of great responsibility is born to be so.  Otherwise, maybe we ought to reconsider our position on Monarchy vs. Democracy.  At the very least, if leadership is an innate quality, it seems that it probably isn't that rare among the human species.  Otherwise, we'd be stupid not to have a dictator instead of an elected government.  After all, if leadership is rare, then it would be wise to appoint them for life.
In fact, dictators (like good leaders) seem to find a way into their positions without regard to rules, laws, or things like political mainstream views (remember that Hitler called himself a socialist and they bought it, even while he demonized communists, and still got himself elected in a country that called itself a republic - go figure).

Wow BC, did someone pee in your Cornflakes?  :old:

Other than you are tired of hearing anything about this subject  [BH] I'm not sure what new angle you have provided. [soap]

You are usually much more rational.

A leader makes people move.  That is not necessarily a good thing.

OK there was one point that was new and poignant

Offline Already Gone

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #60 on: Dec 28, 2010, 12:30 »
Sorry, I guess my point is that people are born with a lot of traits.  Some of those probably enhance one's leadership ability.  Some detract from it.

The idea that someone is "born" to lead rings pretty elitist to me.  The idea is bull**** really.

A leader is one who has followers - period.  Only God can count all the different reasons why a flock of people might be motivated by one particular person.  Hitler, Christ, Bin Laden, Joseph Smith, Chuck Noll, Knute Rockne, David Koresh... all were leaders.  All were different from each other and all born under diverse circumstances.  The quality of their individual leadership abilities are as diverse as they were as men.  Out of that entire list, only one was "born" to lead.
« Last Edit: Dec 28, 2010, 08:29 by Nuclear NASCAR »
"To be content with little is hard; to be content with much, impossible." - Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach

JustinHEMI05

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #61 on: Dec 28, 2010, 01:02 »
Sorry, I guess my point is that people are born with a lot of traits.  Some of those probably enhance one's leadership ability.  Some detract from it.

The idea that someone is "born" to lead rings pretty elitist to me.  The idea is bull**** really.

A leader is one who has followers - period.  Only God can count all the different reasons why a flock of people might be motivated by one particular person.  Hitler, Christ, Bin Laden, Joseph Smith, Chuck Noll, Knute Rockne, David Koresh... all were leaders.  All were different from each other and all born under diverse circumstances.  The quality of their individual leadership abilities are as diverse as they were as men.  Out of that entire list, only one was "born" to lead.

A leader is on that has followers, period? Bull****. Leadership is an innate trait.
« Last Edit: Dec 28, 2010, 08:29 by Nuclear NASCAR »

Offline deltarho

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #62 on: Dec 28, 2010, 04:18 »
A leader is on that has followers, period? Bull****. Leadership is an innate trait.

For those who continue to stir the pot: Leadership is not a property and cannot be measured in a person.  Although leadership has many definitions, it boils down to being a process; usually one influences an individual or group of individuals to achieve a common goal.  Leadership is thus a communication or activity between two or more people that influences and affects all of them.  Leadership involves the exchange of information or instructions between persons, occurring between a leader and his or her followers—it is not just the result of innate characteristics or traits of the leader.

If any trait is innate, it must be that people are born followers—Nazi Germany is my proof.  Okay, I just said that for effect because it was funny, and just as ridiculous or possible as a trait for being a leader.
« Last Edit: Dec 28, 2010, 08:29 by Nuclear NASCAR »
The above has nothing to do with any real  or imagined person(s).  Moreover, any referenced biped(s) simulating real or imagined persons--with a pulse or not--is coincidental, as far as you know.

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #63 on: Dec 28, 2010, 02:36 »
If any trait is innate, it must be that people are born followers—Nazi Germany is my proof.  Okay, I just said that for effect because it was funny, and just as ridiculous or possible as a trait for being a leader.

Of course, it is innate to the inheritance-folk. And when performance is low, one just needs a few disapproving glares, and then at 0:48 an aspiring leader will demonstrate initiative! ;)



at least that's how it worked when Crew A was winning all the Chart House bucks awards!
« Last Edit: Dec 28, 2010, 02:40 by HydroDave63 »

JustinHEMI05

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #64 on: Dec 28, 2010, 05:26 »
For those who continue to stir the pot: Leadership is not a property and cannot be measured in a person.  Although leadership has many definitions, it boils down to being a process; usually one influences an individual or group of individuals to achieve a common goal.  Leadership is thus a communication or activity between two or more people that influences and affects all of them.  Leadership involves the exchange of information or instructions between persons, occurring between a leader and his or her followers—it is not just the result of innate characteristics or traits of the leader.

If any trait is innate, it must be that people are born followers—Nazi Germany is my proof.  Okay, I just said that for effect because it was funny, and just as ridiculous or possible as a trait for being a leader.


There are born leaders, everyone else is born followers.

It is easy to spot a "leader" who wasn't born to do it.
« Last Edit: Dec 28, 2010, 05:27 by JustinHEMI »

co60slr

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #65 on: Dec 28, 2010, 08:03 »
Fixed it for ya'!
Indeed. Thank you.   Or, thank "ya'!", as you say.  Also, thank you for the colorful PM in parallel with your public presentation.   I have 200 PMs that include many "thank you's" for my help and now one rude one.   No matter.  You're 100 percent correct.   My posting had an error.   

A review of your postings and the nice PM reveals what I consider to be more interesting spelling/grammar errors.   I wonder if YOU can find them though.   Copy/paste your best post/contribution to Nukeworker for peer review.

Otherwise, maybe the NFAS nub that you defend will arrive at Southern in a few years and be your boss.   Please, let us know how that works out for you.

Co58

Offline Neutron Whisperer

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #66 on: Dec 28, 2010, 09:06 »
It seems like those who support "leadership can be taught" write more than 5 words for their opinion.  However, those in the "innate camp" say nothing beyond the word itself: "Great Leaders are Innate leaders. Sorry that's how it goes." and "Leadership is an innate trait."

How about those in the innate camp back up their position.  If it's easy to spot one who "wasn't born to lead," then how is such a guy spotted?  If it's innate, then there's a gene for such an ability.  If that's true, then in a couple years we can genetically engineer every child to be a great leader, throw away every book on leadership, and fire every instructor on the subject.

I'm open to converting to the innate camp, but I'm not convinced yet.  Mainly because they haven't offered any explanation.
« Last Edit: Dec 28, 2010, 09:06 by Neutron Whisperer »
Disclaimer: there is no "tone" to my post.

Offline Preciousblue1965

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #67 on: Dec 28, 2010, 09:33 »
It seems like those who support "leadership can be taught" write more than 5 words for their opinion.  However, those in the "innate camp" say nothing beyond the word itself: "Great Leaders are Innate leaders. Sorry that's how it goes." and "Leadership is an innate trait."

How about those in the innate camp back up their position.  If it's easy to spot one who "wasn't born to lead," then how is such a guy spotted?  If it's innate, then there's a gene for such an ability.  If that's true, then in a couple years we can genetically engineer every child to be a great leader, throw away every book on leadership, and fire every instructor on the subject.

I'm open to converting to the innate camp, but I'm not convinced yet.  Mainly because they haven't offered any explanation.


Ok how about this for the "innate" camp.  I say that leadership can be learned and it can be innate.  The reason I say this is that if you look at youth sports.  You can't tell me that those kids have sat down and read a leadership book at some point in their lives, yet you see some  of the kids step up and take charge during the games or during practice.  So obviously there has to be something there from birth. By the same token, I fully believe that those who aren't "natural" leaders can read, learn, and apply leadership techniques over the course of their careers.  So there you go, I am officially riding the fence on this one.

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JustinHEMI05

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #68 on: Dec 29, 2010, 12:24 »
Let me get this straight...are you saying that there are leaders who were born to lead [either for good or evil, you should admit that Charlie Manson was a very effective leader even though he had no formal training], but there are also leaders who were taught to lead [created] but are no good at it because they have no natural leadership qualities?

Makes sense to me!

Stop putting words in my mouth.

I mostly am just stirring the pot at this point because I HATE when people like BC come in here, and dismiss other's opinions as BS.

Marvin

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #69 on: Dec 29, 2010, 12:40 »
Amusing thread.  One thing is certain.  A running forum on an industry website is not a credible point of reference for the topic of leadership.

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #70 on: Dec 29, 2010, 01:05 »
Knowledge and application are two different things. Someone can read about leadership all they want, but may not apply it in the best sense. Good leaders can be made or taught, great leaders are born.
The children leadership angle is a good one imo.

I have a simple analogy. Ever hear about someone who is "mechanically inclined"? Its generally refered to as somone who can instinctively do something with a wrench. You can always learn to build something, but some people just grasp it better.

Another analogy. Musicians, And artists. Some people can grasp instruments Better. Look at eddie van halen. Plenty of people play as much as him, very very few hguitare god given gift he has on the six string guitar. You can practice and study all you want, most likely you will get proficient, but probably not as good as him.

Why is leadership any different? Its a skilled talent some have.

Fermi2

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #71 on: Dec 29, 2010, 01:49 »
It's innate.

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #72 on: Dec 29, 2010, 02:23 »
Let me get this straight...are you saying that there are leaders who were born to lead [either for good or evil, you should admit that Charlie Manson was a very effective leader even though he had no formal training], but there are also leaders who were taught to lead [created] but are no good at it because they have no natural leadership qualities?

Makes sense to me!

At the risk of being chumped if this was a facetious post, I would actually agree with it. In the first instance, think of the Flight 93 passengers who led the others into a plan of action. They probably didn't have time for the full gamut of lifeboat-ethics, Maslow's Pyramid of Priorities and a 7 Habits of Highly Defective Managers review, but nonetheless created a plan, led others etc.

In the second instance of leaders created/designated....read the phrase "fencepost turtle", close your eyes and what manager/leader do you see first? ;)

shocker

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #73 on: Dec 29, 2010, 05:08 »
After reading the thread I am still confused as to why the common belief is that people must either be a Leader, or a Follower.

Does it not make more sense for there to be a scale, where some trend to one side or the other, and others fit neatly in the middle?

Personally I do believe you are born to be somewhere on that scale.  Not everyone needs, or wants, to be a leader.  If everyone was a leader, no one would follow.  There are countless adages along those lines: "Too many cooks in the kitchen", "Too many chiefs, not enough indians", etc.

Some people would love nothing else but to show up for work, do the job they were trained to do, and go home.  Some people dream to lead armies, or companies to greatness.  That burning desire to lead is the innate part of leadership you are born with and can not be taught from books.

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #74 on: Dec 29, 2010, 07:51 »
It seems like those who support "leadership can be taught" write more than 5 words for their opinion.  However, those in the "innate camp" say nothing beyond the word itself: "Great Leaders are Innate leaders. Sorry that's how it goes." and "Leadership is an innate trait."

How about those in the innate camp back up their position.  If it's easy to spot one who "wasn't born to lead," then how is such a guy spotted?  If it's innate, then there's a gene for such an ability.  If that's true, then in a couple years we can genetically engineer every child to be a great leader, throw away every book on leadership, and fire every instructor on the subject.

I'm open to converting to the innate camp, but I'm not convinced yet.  Mainly because they haven't offered any explanation.
It's innate.

Brilliant argument. Probably convinced a whole army of doubters. The great and powerful Oz has spoken.  ::)
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