Help | Contact Us
NukeWorker.com
NukeWorker Menu Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake

Author Topic: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake  (Read 567497 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Xenon_Free

  • Guest
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #525 on: Mar 18, 2011, 10:26 »
Okay, there are only 2 possibilities as I see it.

A.  The core is, or will, completely melt.  I believe I have made my position clear on this likelyhood.  But let's assume for a minute that is does.  There is literally nothing more than what is being done to minimize the effects of this.  They are injecting water and venting the steam, and they are filling containment in at least two of the sites.  Until other means of cooling become available that is all they will have.  There is no way to drop any cement or boric acid or anything else on top of that core or even onto the reactor because containment is still intact.  Unless that changes there is NO REASON to even attempt this, it can only make matters worse since  anything that was being done is no longer going to work.

B.  The core is in as bad a state as it will get and steam cooling has been moderately effective.  Then you put your efforts into continuing as in 'A.' but you are setting yourself up for long term decay heat removal with the RHR system.  This should work with few issues at units 1 and 2 since as you guys have been talking about there hasn't been dumping of seawater all over those buildings so the pumps are likely in "decent" shape.  Unit 3 may be pretty tough, again as you guys have posted.  The refuel floor is not water tight but it also not a straight shot down into the building, and with no walls much of the water may have just dumped back outside of the building.  Until the status of those pumps is known, and the likelyhood they will remain in a usable state based on Spent fuel pool damage and further water additions, there is no way to predict how this will play out.  But they can continue as in A. above until a solution becomes avaialble.


The spent fuel pools may end up needing the cement and sand mixture.  I wish there was more detail about their status other than "level low" and  "fuel damage suspected"

XF
« Last Edit: Mar 18, 2011, 10:29 by Xenon_Free »

Offline playswithairplanes

  • Moderate User
  • ***
  • Posts: 66
  • Karma: 53
  • Gender: Male
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #526 on: Mar 18, 2011, 10:31 »
I am thinking so too. Looking at the pictures of the surrounding area, it's just utter devastation. They could have had all the DC gear pre-placed they wanted, but if your gear is smashed, washed away, or just plain missing after a 1000 year category Tsunami, well there ain't much you can do. This accident can't be taken in isolation of what has occurred around it. It's part of the overall picture.
Airplanes and submarines... they are similar it's just the density of the fluid that separates them

Offline Marlin

  • Forum Staff
  • *
  • Posts: 17388
  • Karma: 5147
  • Gender: Male
  • Stop Global Whining!!!
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #527 on: Mar 18, 2011, 10:46 »
   Once they decided to use seawater for cooling they gave up ever operating the plant again making them nuclear mausoleums at that point.

Offline playswithairplanes

  • Moderate User
  • ***
  • Posts: 66
  • Karma: 53
  • Gender: Male
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #528 on: Mar 18, 2011, 11:27 »
Just read a Reuters article that said they have almost completed stringing the power lines to the outside of the plant, they have another 5000 ft of cables that need to be rigged inside the plant to make it work. That's a heck of a job.
Airplanes and submarines... they are similar it's just the density of the fluid that separates them

Offline roadhp

  • Moderate User
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
  • Karma: 198
  • Gender: Male
  • Playing in the bathtub!!!
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #529 on: Mar 18, 2011, 11:48 »
The situation exceeded TMI last weekend it still has a long way to go to come close to Chennobyl.  Read all the real info not just the s*** put out by the media that doesn't understand the difference between micro, milli, & Macro.
This situation will never get to the point of Chernobyl due to 1. No graphite moderator burning out of control for days, providing a transport path for the decay products,  2. No major steam explosion forcing in milliseconds an 8 foot thick reactor head 30 feet into the air and landing sideways, exposing the core,  and 3. the entire core hasn't blown out of the reactor vessel, with whats left getting so hot from the fire and decay heat to melt completely out of the vessel and becoming a lava flow in the basement.  Just my .02.
Brave, brave Sir Robin, set forth from Camelot!!!!

Offline nadinno

  • Light User
  • **
  • Posts: 13
  • Karma: 19
  • Gender: Male
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #530 on: Mar 19, 2011, 12:03 »


Video made for children to explain the situation at the Fukushima plant.

Would also make for a great RadCon training video.

Wish our media wasn't so dumb.

This guys blog has some great entries about media sensationalism when it comes the Fukushima plant
http://modernmarketingjapan.blogspot.com/

Offline Styrofoam

  • Moderate User
  • ***
  • Posts: 215
  • Karma: 104
  • Gender: Female
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #531 on: Mar 19, 2011, 02:25 »
Video made for children to explain the situation at the Fukushima plant.

Ooohhhh..... Now I get it. :P

Cycoticpenguin

  • Guest
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #532 on: Mar 19, 2011, 03:52 »


Video made for children to explain the situation at the Fukushima plant.

Would also make for a great RadCon training video.

Wish our media wasn't so dumb.

This guys blog has some great entries about media sensationalism when it comes the Fukushima plant
http://modernmarketingjapan.blogspot.com/

LMAO 8 kinds of awesomeness here ;)
« Last Edit: Mar 19, 2011, 03:56 by Charlie Murphy »

Offline Zog

  • Moderate User
  • ***
  • Posts: 51
  • Karma: 10
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #533 on: Mar 19, 2011, 10:04 »
I think one problem is that even when power arrives on site, the switchgear and other electrical components have been exposed to sea water. Even the water they've been pumping into the reactor buildings has been sea water. Pump motors and other equipment will need some maintenance to be operable. With the doses in the reactor buildings, that could be a tall order.

I had made that same assumption but come on, they have had over a week. Mobile switchgear could have been brought in and cabled to bypass the contaminated (Salt water) gear. Motors, that one I did not consider, I would assume the motors are protected from water intrusion, but if not megger them to see which ones are godd/bad and plan from there. Replacement motors could have been on site by now.

Of course if radiation levels are too high around that equipment for people to be there then it makes it hard. But, the generators, switchgear, and motors should have been staged at the site a day or two into this. It is not that hard to have it all staged.

Offline HydroDave63

  • Retired
  • *
  • Posts: 6295
  • Karma: 6629
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #534 on: Mar 19, 2011, 10:11 »
Of course if radiation levels are too high around that equipment for people to be there then it makes it hard.

And it is that lack of understanding of the big picture, that makes me thankful y'all only sell switchgear and not rad protection services  >:(

Offline Zog

  • Moderate User
  • ***
  • Posts: 51
  • Karma: 10
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #535 on: Mar 19, 2011, 10:57 »
And it is that lack of understanding of the big picture, that makes me thankful y'all only sell switchgear and not rad protection services  >:(

Well you are making some odd assumptions but I fail to see your point. Care to explain what is wrong about what I said?

Offline peachie

  • Light User
  • **
  • Posts: 21
  • Karma: 14
  • Gender: Male
  • It's my own private, personal, private business.
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #536 on: Mar 19, 2011, 11:50 »
JAPANESE EARTHQUAKE—11 MARCH 2011
1
WANO UPDATE 13—19 March 2011, 12:08 GMT
Fukushima Daiichi Site—Efforts continue to restore electrical power to units 1 and 2,
the goal is to have power restored today. Concurrent efforts are underway to restore
power to units 3 and 4 which is expected to occur within the next couple of days.
The highest dose rate observed outside of the 20kilometre evacuation zone was
140microSv/hr (14mrem/hr)
Some radioactivity has been detected in food samples taken within a 30kilometre
radius of the station.
Fukushima Daiichi Units 1/2/3—Seawater injection continues into these units.
Fukushima Daiichi Unit 3—The Tokyo Fire Department is using an unmanned
water injection gun to spray water into the spent fuel pool. Spraying was temporarily
suspended due to the attempt to restore electrical power to the unit.
Fukushima Daiichi Units 4—Plans are being made to begin using water cannons to
resume adding water to the unit 4 spent fuel pool.
Fukushima Daiichi Units 3/4—Maximum radiation level measured next to the
reactor buildings is 150mSv/h (15Rem/hr) on 18 March.
Fukushima Daiichi Unit 5/6—A second unit 6 emergency diesel generator has been
started and is supplying electrical power to various equipment in both units.
A residual heat removal pump was started at 05:00AM JST and is providing cooling
to the unit 5 spent fuel pool.
In order to prevent hydrogen gas from accumulating three holes have been drilled
through the reactor building roofs
Maximum radiation level measured next to the reactor buildings is 1mSv/h
(100mrem/hr) on 18 March.
Miscellaneous Information—The number of spent fuel assemblies in the spent fuel
pool of each unit is as follows:
Unit : number / capacity
Unit 1: 292 / 900
Unit 2: 587 / 1240
Unit 3: 514 / 1220
Unit 4: 1331(*) / 1590
Unit 5: 946 / 1590
Unit 6: 876 / 1770
Common (Shared) fuel pool: 6375 / 6840
(*) 1331 includes 783 spent fuel assemblies and 548 unloaded from the reactor for the inspection.
Better living through chemistry.

Keln

  • Guest
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #537 on: Mar 19, 2011, 12:05 »
Just read a Reuters article that said they have almost completed stringing the power lines to the outside of the plant, they have another 5000 ft of cables that need to be rigged inside the plant to make it work. That's a heck of a job.

When I first left the navy, I worked as an electrician in a brand new steel mill that was still under construction in some places, and my first job was to pull a bunch of very heavy cable about 300 feet. Took me a while and was tough work, but I had "good" air, plenty of lighting, and all the time in the world to do it.

I could not imagine pulling 5,000 feet as quickly as I can, probably wearing anti-c's and a respirator, in the dark while keeping an eye on my dose rate.

What these guys are having to do is just incredible to think about.


Offline Marlin

  • Forum Staff
  • *
  • Posts: 17388
  • Karma: 5147
  • Gender: Male
  • Stop Global Whining!!!
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #538 on: Mar 19, 2011, 12:41 »
As if the media misinformation wasn't bad enough we have predators on the web as well.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/technology/fallout.asp

   If anyone here who is in the business is asked a question please be patient as there is not one clear picture and there are people with agendas of their own disseminating false and heavily biased information. Much of what I hear in the media from any of the outlets is a little off the mark. Nukeworker has been a good forum so far for information but there are still gaps I would like filled but understand that it is unlikely we will get a full view until it is over as it should be, the real experts for these plants are very busy with the emergency and we will get evolution of the event with data, Root Cause and lessons learned in detail after the fact.

Keln

  • Guest
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #539 on: Mar 19, 2011, 02:10 »
As if the media misinformation wasn't bad enough we have predators on the web as well.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/technology/fallout.asp

   If anyone here who is in the business is asked a question please be patient as there is not one clear picture and there are people with agendas of their own disseminating false and heavily biased information. Much of what I hear in the media from any of the outlets is a little off the mark. Nukeworker has been a good forum so far for information but there are still gaps I would like filled but understand that it is unlikely we will get a full view until it is over as it should be, the real experts for these plants are very busy with the emergency and we will get evolution of the event with data, Root Cause and lessons learned in detail after the fact.

Yeah, I saw that pic the other day. Went to the Australian company whose logo is on that picture and the first thing I saw was a big disclaimer in red letters saying they had nothing to do with that graphic. It is sad that there are predators out there taking advantage of public fears. But there are guys like us who are informing our relatives when they call us, and posting on message boards we frequent to try and clarify what is really going on and give truthful information about the nuclear industry, radiation, and contamination. I really urge all of you to start a thread on message boards you go to concerning this topic. We have something here that didn't really exist in this form in the 80's when the combination of Chernobyl and the late 70's TMI-2 accident occurred. The internet. Let's all use it as a way to get good info out to the public.

Offline tr

  • Moderate User
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
  • Karma: 218
  • Tell Recruiters to use NukeWorker.com
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #540 on: Mar 19, 2011, 03:33 »
Does anyone know where the diesels are located?  I haven't yet seen any detailed site layout diagrams which show this, and I haven't seen any aerial images showing obvious exhaust stacks, etc.

Also, here is the DigitalGlobe image from 3-18-2011.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5133/5537297305_207bd7d9bf_o.jpg


caerbannog

  • Guest
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #541 on: Mar 19, 2011, 09:10 »
Does anyone know where the diesels are located?  I haven't yet seen any detailed site layout diagrams which show this, and I haven't seen any aerial images showing obvious exhaust stacks, etc.

Also, here is the DigitalGlobe image from 3-18-2011.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5133/5537297305_207bd7d9bf_o.jpg



Just guessing by looking at the layout, it looks like their emergency diesels are in the bottom right corner, next to Unit 4.  I could be wrong, so take it for what its worth.  They have what appears to be piping or a bus running over to those buildings.

Offline RRhoads

  • Heavy User
  • ****
  • Posts: 293
  • Karma: 334
  • Gender: Male
  • it was like like that when i got here!

Offline tr

  • Moderate User
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
  • Karma: 218
  • Tell Recruiters to use NukeWorker.com
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #543 on: Mar 19, 2011, 11:47 »
Interesting NEI white paper on changes made to Mark I containments.

http://www.nei.org/filefolder/Report_-_BWR_Mark_I_Containment_03192011_2.pdf

Matthew B

  • Guest
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #544 on: Mar 21, 2011, 12:51 »
Following this incidnet makes me realize the major media has ADHD.

Just last week this was the unending focus of the media.  Nothing but non-stop breathless reporting about how dire the situation was.

This week?  Nothing, it is forgotten.

jongular

  • Guest
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #545 on: Mar 21, 2011, 01:23 »
"Also on Friday, the IAEA reported updated incident levels for each of the damaged units. The incidents at units 1 though 3 are rated at level 5 out of seven. The incident at unit 4’s spent fuel tank is rated level 3."

http://nuclearstreet.com/

This would make 1-3 equal to TMI. At least not the 6 that France was declaring supposedly.

Cycoticpenguin

  • Guest
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #546 on: Mar 21, 2011, 11:18 »
"Also on Friday, the IAEA reported updated incident levels for each of the damaged units. The incidents at units 1 though 3 are rated at level 5 out of seven. The incident at unit 4’s spent fuel tank is rated level 3."

http://nuclearstreet.com/

This would make 1-3 equal to TMI. At least not the 6 that France was declaring supposedly.

TMI was a 5? I thought it was a 4 O.o At least thats what dr Kaku said... 

are there criteria to meet for each level? Id imagine level of radiation release, physical damage, ability to "clean up", and casualties are the major factors? Who sets this limit? and Is chernobyl the "control group" so to speak, or did it just meet criteria to be a 7?


Offline RRhoads

  • Heavy User
  • ****
  • Posts: 293
  • Karma: 334
  • Gender: Male
  • it was like like that when i got here!

hatrai07

  • Guest
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #548 on: Mar 21, 2011, 12:47 »
From NEI website this morning

"Radiation dose rates at monitoring posts are slightly higher than on past days. Rates at the plant site boundary range from 1 to 3 millirem per hour. Radiation dose rates in the area where fire trucks have been located are reported to be 2 to 3 rem per hour, with some isolated areas as high as 30 rem per hour."


Cycoticpenguin

  • Guest
Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #549 on: Mar 21, 2011, 01:26 »
http://www-pub.iaea.org/mtcd/publications/pdf/pub1265_web.pdf

From Nuclear Street...
www.nisa.meti.go.jp/.../en20110320-4-2.pdf



I dont see the 1-7 scale in there, seems to be a risk assesment vs actual scales. (Im seein categorys of potential problems vice what the actual casualties would put you in a certain category).


 


NukeWorker ™ is a registered trademark of NukeWorker.com ™, LLC © 1996-2024 All rights reserved.
All material on this Web Site, including text, photographs, graphics, code and/or software, are protected by international copyright/trademark laws and treaties. Unauthorized use is not permitted. You may not modify, copy, reproduce, republish, upload, post, transmit or distribute, in any manner, the material on this web site or any portion of it. Doing so will result in severe civil and criminal penalties, and will be prosecuted to the maximum extent possible under the law.
Privacy Statement | Terms of Use | Code of Conduct | Spam Policy | Advertising Info | Contact Us | Forum Rules | Password Problem?