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chimmike

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #600 on: Mar 29, 2011, 11:14 »
need to cool the reactors.  covering it all with concrete would not help that cause until much later.  freshwater much better at this point to keep them from catching on fire at 2200F or more. gotta get rid of the decay heat first.

Understood, and this makes sense.  The decay heat will take a bit of time to work out, I'm assuming, somewhere along the line of months+ to get to a reasonable stability?

Marlin:
Good point. I forgot that they fully entombed Chern, not just built overtop of it. I imagine the logistics of digging underneath Daiichi would be more than difficult due to it's oceanside locale.

Is there any chance of them being able to remediate this once the decay heat dissipates somewhat, assuming they get the cooling under control and manage the leaks?

Offline Marlin

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #601 on: Mar 29, 2011, 12:05 »
Is there any chance of them being able to remediate this once the decay heat dissipates somewhat, assuming they get the cooling under control and manage the leaks?

   We remediate and demolish reactors on a regular basis. It's just much more complicated in this case, but yes a few half lives of the shorter lived isotopes in the fuel will be necessary before any recovery work starts. Like the Hanford tank farms proximity to a large body of water makes the stabilization and remediation of the facility a priority.

Offline PJMcG

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #602 on: Mar 29, 2011, 03:32 »
Some pretty high radiation readings in this IAEA report
 Timestamp: IAEA Briefing on Fukushima Nuclear Accident (29 March 2011, 16:30 UTC)

http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html

Check my math, but "... Dose rates at the surface of this water were 0.4 millisieverts/hour for Unit 1 and over 1 000 millisieverts/hour for Unit 2 as of 18:30 UTC on 26 March."

1,000 millisieverts/hour = 100 REM/Hour - ouch!  That's hot for a surface reading on a trench by the turbine building.
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Pman52

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #603 on: Mar 29, 2011, 03:41 »

1,000 millisieverts/hour = 100 REM/Hour - ouch!  That's hot for a surface reading on a trench by the turbine building.

I did some calculations last night and got the same amount.  100 REM/hour seems pretty high!  Chernobyl was a lot worse.  Not that they compare by any means, but just to see the difference in the two accidents.  I believe they were experiencing around 400-500 REM/hour in some of the hotter areas where the radioactive graphite was being picked up by the fire fighters (correct me if wrong).  I read a book that gave firsthand accounts of plant workers during the Chernobyl accident.  I believe the name of the book was Ablaze.  Very good book to read.  It discussed how the situation unfolded and the many causes.

Offline playswithairplanes

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #604 on: Mar 29, 2011, 03:48 »

At what point does Japan Prime Minster Fire these TEPCO clowns?  What does it take?  It looks like they wanted to quit and walk off the job two weeks ago, and their actions show conclusively they are no where near being up for the task at hand.  The are using unqualified personnel for dangerous clean up and wasting the efforts the work force that is volunteering blindly following a sense of patriotic duty.   

The PM should have accepted the resignation proposal from Fukushima NP and transitioned Emergency Response management to GE-Hitachi. Or Areva.  Or ten random guys at the airport. There is no indication T+2 weeks into this that their is any leadership, management, or central control in place.  What is the plan?  Answer, there is no plan.  You are looking at it.

A quick look under the hood of this TEPCO operation shows why:  a history of coverups, bribes, forged maintenance inspections, parts failure, deaths, rad releases.  And that is just what we know about with government officials and oversight in their back pocket.   

What you must understand is the very powerful nature of the Utilities in Japan. It's essentially a quasi-mafia thing. This is because of the strange divide between the 50Hz Western Japanese Grid, and the 60 Hz Eastern Japanese Grid. This prevents competition for power supplies East v. West. It also had the effect of creating extremely powerful monopolies in the utilities. Up until this incident, there wasn't a politician alive in Japan who would go against the utilities. It was political suicide. The Utilities control power to the big corporations, the big corporations then lean on the pols. It remains to be seen what the, pardon the pun, fallout will be from all this. One of the things that's really hurting Japan right now is power shortages in the East, but they can't import power from the West where there is currently a huge surplus. Perhaps Japan will finally standardize on a frequency, but up to now that has been impossible because the utilities didn't want to do it as it would bust up their rackets. There are something like only 4 conversion stations in all of Japan to convert 50 Hz to 60 Hz and vice versa. In essence, Eastern Japan is on its own for power. That's why rolling black outs are happening in Tokyo, but in the other cities, like Kyoto, it's business as usual.
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Offline hamsamich

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #605 on: Mar 29, 2011, 04:03 »
wow about the east/west 50/60hz thing.  truth is stranger than fiction.

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #606 on: Mar 29, 2011, 04:31 »
wow about the east/west 50/60hz thing.  truth is stranger than fiction.

The 50Hz was based on European equipment Japan bought before WW2. Geography being what it is, we bombed away most of the infrastructure eat of the mountains of Honshu, so after the war they bought/built new from the US.

Offline playswithairplanes

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #607 on: Mar 29, 2011, 04:38 »
Yea, it's strange. It comes from the fact that after WW2, the single government utility was broken up and they were allowed to buy their own equipment to rebuild. Some bought from the US (the Western utilities), some bought from Europe (Eastern Utilities). If you look at a map everything from about mid-Honshu up is 50 Hz, and from there down is 60. The dividing line is sort of North East of Nagoya and runs to the North East of Sado Island.  
Airplanes and submarines... they are similar it's just the density of the fluid that separates them

Keln

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #608 on: Mar 29, 2011, 05:02 »
Some news agencies are reporting that the unit 2 core melted through the bottom of the containment vessel. Has anyone heard this, or know if that is even a feasible scenario? Wouldn't it take a pretty incredible temperature to do that?

Offline Loffy Muffin

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #609 on: Mar 29, 2011, 07:29 »
Quote
Fresh water has been continuously injected into the Reactor Pressure Vessels (RPVs) of Units 1, 2 and 3. From today at Unit 1, the pumping of fresh water through the feed-water line will no longer be performed by fire trucks but by electrical pumps with a diesel generator. The switch to the use of such pumps has already been made in Units 2 and 3. At Unit 3, the fresh water is being injected through the fire extinguisher line.

 Good news:
NAEA most recent update.  A diesel generator supplying cooling water to 3 reactors?  That can't be, 30 year veteran licensed nuclear shift manager said that it can't it be done.  And multi group thinkers all agreed (with great prejudice I might add).  It's good news but about 18 days too late, that should have been done within the first couple hours. 

Should start to get the units into cool shutdown status in a couple of days. The most pressing issue remains the SFP.  No satellite imaging?  Hmmmm, $1T defense budget and we can't get simple high res satellite image?  I would expect the worst here. With Pu being detected, #3 SFP would be most likely source.   

No details on how they  got the EDG in, I think they helo'd them in considering that would be the easiest.  I did a quick google search on the weight of a skid mounted EDG set.  Ranges from 27 ton to 15 ton on the three I looked at for 2KW.  That chopper that was dumping 7.5 tons of should have been used to helo in multiple  2KW EDG's.  7x4 = 28 tons, it just takes 4 helo's per Set.  A gas turbine would be lighter for the power output.
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Offline HydroDave63

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #610 on: Mar 29, 2011, 07:41 »
No details on how they  got the EDG in, I think they helo'd them in considering that would be the easiest.  I did a quick google search on the weight of a skid mounted EDG set.  Ranges from 27 ton to 15 ton on the three I looked at for 2KW.  That chopper that was dumping 7.5 tons of should have been used to helo in multiple  2KW EDG's.  7x4 = 28 tons, it just takes 4 helo's per Set.  A gas turbine would be lighter for the power output.

2KW, well now that IS impressive. Heck, the 5KW that I bought at Lowe's weighed upwards of 100 lbs.

A 4 helo snatch? Cool, when you get that working, call me right after the guys from Guinness Book of Records. I'd love to see 4 helos that could handle huge lateral torsion while controlling pitch. That would be like an UNREP in 4 dimensions!

Pman52

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #611 on: Mar 29, 2011, 09:06 »
I wonder how many 2 kW generators it would take to make up for the lost EDGs?

« Last Edit: Mar 29, 2011, 09:09 by Pman52 »

Offline roadhp

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #612 on: Mar 30, 2011, 12:34 »
Good news:
NAEA most recent update.  A diesel generator supplying cooling water to 3 reactors?  That can't be, 30 year veteran licensed nuclear shift manager said that it can't it be done.  And multi group thinkers all agreed (with great prejudice I might add).  It's good news but about 18 days too late, that should have been done within the first couple hours. 

Should start to get the units into cool shutdown status in a couple of days. The most pressing issue remains the SFP.  No satellite imaging?  Hmmmm, $1T defense budget and we can't get simple high res satellite image?  I would expect the worst here. With Pu being detected, #3 SFP would be most likely source.   

No details on how they  got the EDG in, I think they helo'd them in considering that would be the easiest.  I did a quick google search on the weight of a skid mounted EDG set.  Ranges from 27 ton to 15 ton on the three I looked at for 2KW.  That chopper that was dumping 7.5 tons of should have been used to helo in multiple  2KW EDG's.  7x4 = 28 tons, it just takes 4 helo's per Set.  A gas turbine would be lighter for the power output.


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atomicarcheologist

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #613 on: Mar 30, 2011, 09:21 »


Latest NEI Updates

UPDATE AS OF 6:30 P.M. EDT, TUESDAY, MARCH 29:
Tokyo Electric Power Co. said that cooling water is being added to the spent storage fuel pools at reactors 2 and 3. Reactor 2 was using a temporary motor-driven pump and reactor 3 was using a truck to pump the freshwater into the fuel storage pools. The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) said that plans are being made to begin pumping freshwater into the fuel storage pool at reactor 4 starting today.

IAEA said that 63 food samples taken March 24-29 in eight prefectures (Chiba, Fukushima, Gunma, Ibaraki, Miyagi, Niigata, Tochigi and Yamagata) were below regulatory limits set by the Japanese government for iodine-131, cesium-134 and cesium-137.

New analyses of seawater about 1,000 feet from the discharge point of reactors 1 through 4 show "a significant decrease" in radiation levels from March 26, IAEA said.

Readings for iodine-131 went from 2,000,000 picocuries (1 picocurie is one-trillionth of a curie) per liter on March 26 to 297,300 picocuries per liter on March 27. Readings for cesium-137 went from 324,324 picocuries per liter on March 26 to 51,351 picocuries per liter on March 27. IAEA said that radiation readings in seawater "will be quite variable in the near future depending on water discharge levels."

Two Curies per liter?  At a 1000 feet from discharge?  I'm wondering where the magenta and yellow rope is for surfing?


Offline PJMcG

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #614 on: Mar 30, 2011, 09:39 »

Latest NEI Updates

UPDATE AS OF 6:30 P.M. EDT, TUESDAY, MARCH 29:

...

Readings for iodine-131 went from 2,000,000 picocuries (1 picocurie is one-trillionth of a curie) per liter on March 26 to 297,300 picocuries per liter on March 27. Readings for cesium-137 went from 324,324 picocuries per liter on March 26 to 51,351 picocuries per liter on March 27. IAEA said that radiation readings in seawater "will be quite variable in the near future depending on water discharge levels."

Two Curies per liter?  At a 1000 feet from discharge?  I'm wondering where the magenta and yellow rope is for surfing?


Check my math, but isn't that 2 uCi/liter?

2,000,000 picocuries

2,000,000 = 2.0e06
pico         = 1.0e-12

2.0e06 * 1.0e-12 = 2.0e-06

Thus,
2.000,000 picocuries/liter = 2.0 uCi/liter

I'm not suggesting that still isn't cause for some concern; but it's better by six orders of magnitude.


Just sayin'
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Matthew B

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #615 on: Mar 30, 2011, 09:55 »
Good news:
NAEA most recent update.  A diesel generator supplying cooling water to 3 reactors?  That can't be, 30 year veteran licensed nuclear shift manager said that it can't it be done.  And multi group thinkers all agreed (with great prejudice I might add).  It's good news but about 18 days too late, that should have been done within the first couple hours. 

Nice straw man!

Nobody said it couldn't be done, just that it'd take something on the order of weeks not hours.

Offline playswithairplanes

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #616 on: Mar 30, 2011, 11:45 »

No details on how they  got the EDG in, I think they helo'd them in considering that would be the easiest.  I did a quick google search on the weight of a skid mounted EDG set.  Ranges from 27 ton to 15 ton on the three I looked at for 2KW.  That chopper that was dumping 7.5 tons of should have been used to helo in multiple  2KW EDG's.  7x4 = 28 tons, it just takes 4 helo's per Set.  A gas turbine would be lighter for the power output.

Most likely it came by road. The Japanese are VERY good at road repairs. They managed to get most of the vital arterial roads repaired in about a week. Here's a really good before and after shot
http://www.geargather.org/profiles/blogs/japan-road-repair-6-days

As for your 4 helo pipe dream, dude... nope. It doesn't work that way. I know movies have shown something like that, but it has no basis in reality. It's just not possible. Way too dangerous.
« Last Edit: Mar 30, 2011, 11:47 by playswithairplanes »
Airplanes and submarines... they are similar it's just the density of the fluid that separates them

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #617 on: Mar 30, 2011, 01:19 »
As for your 4 helo pipe dream, dude... nope. It doesn't work that way. I know movies have shown something like that, but it has no basis in reality. It's just not possible. Way too dangerous.


Agreed. Anyone every try to carry a full keg using 4 people and ropes???

Were the trucks from Japan or off island?? They could get a C-4 Galaxy in there if they had a long and strong  enough strip. Just playing devils advocate.
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MacGyver

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #618 on: Mar 30, 2011, 01:33 »

Agreed. Anyone every try to carry a full keg using 4 people and ropes???

Were the trucks from Japan or off island?? They could get a C-4 Galaxy in there if they had a long and strong  enough strip. Just playing devils advocate.

I believe you mean C5 - Galaxy


Which is not a short field aircraft.  The C17 is the new heavy (not a replacement for the C5 though) lift aircraft for the airforce.  It was designed for rough and short field operations in mind.


Or you could just get a C130 to do the job.


But, heck this is as close to a propeller as I get.

MacGyver

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #619 on: Mar 30, 2011, 01:52 »
So,...........................

dude, everybody knows paper mills, nuke plants and oil derricks can all be fixed lickety split with a trash can lid and a bucket of wood ashes, just like John Wayne does it in the movies,.......

 :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P,..... [coffee]


Or ... maybe ...








Just saying, YMWV   ;)

:P :P :P
« Last Edit: Mar 30, 2011, 01:55 by MacGyver »

atomicarcheologist

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #620 on: Mar 30, 2011, 01:56 »
Check my math, but isn't that 2 uCi/liter?

I'm not suggesting that still isn't cause for some concern; but it's better by six orders of magnitude.


Just sayin'

My bad, I should have used my pointer to count the zeros.  Still, saying that spill is evenly distributed over 1000 square meters where is that rope going to be posted?

dave in St. Louis

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #621 on: Mar 30, 2011, 02:18 »
What you must understand is the very powerful nature of the Utilities in Japan. It's essentially a quasi-mafia thing. This is because of the strange divide between the 50Hz Western Japanese Grid, and the 60 Hz Eastern Japanese Grid.
I know this is but a nit, but I believe you have that backwards.

http://m.npr.org/news/Business/134828205?page=3

""One major problem is that the east and west of Japan have different electric cycles and the capacity of the connectors are very much limited," he says.

That's partly an accident of history. Eastern Japan followed the German model and has a 50-cycle electrical power grid. The western part of Japan used the American model and has a 60-cycle grid. Transferring power from one grid to another requires a very expensive facility. And there are only three connections between eastern and western Japan. That bottleneck means the power transfer is just a trickle, even during this national emergency. Creating more capacity would take years."

Offline navynukedoc

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #622 on: Mar 30, 2011, 03:00 »
I believe you mean C5 - Galaxy

Or you could just get a C130 to do the job.

Thanks for the correction Mac. I did mean C5. 4 and 5 are next to each other on the keyboard. :P

I know the C130 have quite a bit of cargo room, but I didn't know how big the generators were since I have never seen one before. Got any pics of those?

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Offline playswithairplanes

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #623 on: Mar 30, 2011, 03:45 »
I know this is but a nit, but I believe you have that backwards.

http://m.npr.org/news/Business/134828205?page=3

""One major problem is that the east and west of Japan have different electric cycles and the capacity of the connectors are very much limited," he says.

That's partly an accident of history. Eastern Japan followed the German model and has a 50-cycle electrical power grid. The western part of Japan used the American model and has a 60-cycle grid. Transferring power from one grid to another requires a very expensive facility. And there are only three connections between eastern and western Japan. That bottleneck means the power transfer is just a trickle, even during this national emergency. Creating more capacity would take years."

East West confusion, yes made a mistake there, but I did have it correct in my later post, Everything from just north east of Nagoya down... i.e. Kyoto and all the US bases like Yokuska Sasebo, etc are all 60 hz. So yea... gig for Bean.

On the C-5A vs. C-17 vs. C-130J... depends on the weight of the generator you want to move. I think I saw earlier in this thread something like 27 tons. Which off the top of my head the C-130J should be able to move payload wise. It would depend on the dimensions of the generator though. You might have to go with a C-17 if you need more volume. C-5 would be overkill. In any case, it's irrelevant since there is no runway at the plant. 
« Last Edit: Mar 30, 2011, 03:51 by playswithairplanes »
Airplanes and submarines... they are similar it's just the density of the fluid that separates them

MacGyver

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #624 on: Mar 30, 2011, 04:12 »

In any case, it's irrelevant since there is no runway at the plant.  

No not really.  With the C130 you can LAPES (Low Altitude Parachute Extraction System).  I'm not sure if they still do this.  It has killed a number of crews due to the load not coming off the ship even with the parachute deployed.

No strip ... No problem.

« Last Edit: Mar 30, 2011, 04:19 by MacGyver »

 


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