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RealityCheck

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #725 on: Apr 26, 2011, 11:33 »
Yeah, I agree...must be the avatar...smart and good looking...how much farther do I have to go to get the record for negative karma? Oh wow, it looks like plutone has me on the negative karma....here I come buddy, you will not beat me and that's final! It looks like only the moRons that have shelled out nukeworker cash have the ability to dispense Karma...hmm,  how to dis them all simultaneously...a solution forthcoming.  Odd, I used to imagine positive karma as the goal...I challenge you all to smite me with your karma wand!!!  MoRons, all of you...
« Last Edit: Apr 26, 2011, 11:44 by RealityCheck »

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #726 on: Apr 27, 2011, 12:45 »
Yeah, I agree...must be the avatar...smart and good looking...how much farther do I have to go to get the record for negative karma? Oh wow, it looks like plutone has me on the negative karma....here I come buddy, you will not beat me and that's final! It looks like only the moRons that have shelled out nukeworker cash have the ability to dispense Karma...hmm,  how to dis them all simultaneously...a solution forthcoming.  Odd, I used to imagine positive karma as the goal...I challenge you all to smite me with your karma wand!!!  MoRons, all of you...

You have a long long long long way to go to even catch up to me, much less hydro dave haha.

HydroDave63       - 590
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I dont think you are going to get smited too much more, you're really not worth the time. In fact, I have no idea why Im entertaining you to begin with. Theres one easy way to get -karma, but thats my trade secret ;)

RAD-GHOST

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #727 on: Apr 27, 2011, 05:04 »
RC, -10...Glad to help a Brother out!

Odd, I used to imagine positive karma as the goal.

Once a Goal is Unachievable, one must lower their standards..... ;)

Just one of the moRons......RG!  [dunce]

PS: Dave has always been a trend setter!
« Last Edit: Apr 27, 2011, 05:06 by RAD-GHOST »

Offline namlive

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #728 on: Apr 27, 2011, 08:29 »
Yeah, I agree...must be the avatar...smart and good looking...how much farther do I have to go to get the record for negative karma? Oh wow, it looks like plutone has me on the negative karma....here I come buddy, you will not beat me and that's final! It looks like only the moRons that have shelled out nukeworker cash have the ability to dispense Karma...hmm,  how to dis them all simultaneously...a solution forthcoming.  Odd, I used to imagine positive karma as the goal...I challenge you all to smite me with your karma wand!!!  MoRons, all of you...

Without revealing too much, I believe I held that record in a former life.  At least 4 figures.  moo!
No one gets out alive.

Offline Cellman

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #729 on: Apr 28, 2011, 09:37 »
I came across this article regarding a postulated BWR station blackout. http://www.ornl.gov/info/reports/1981/3445600211884.pdf. In my limited understanding of the finer points of nuclear power, is this a fairly accurate description of the early stages of the Fukushima incident? Granted they flooded the drywell before the core went through the floor, and it seems that Fukushima lasted longer on/after batteries than the projection indicated. The report shows the two most likely failure points of containment as a rupture of the torus, and the electrical penetration seal. Its been reported that the torus may have cracked at unit 2. Also, do you think the reports of contaminated water in an electrical trench would be consistant with a failure of the drywell electrical penetration seal?

An additional question. In the earlier pages of this post, many of you have indicated that HPCI and RCIC can be operated manually once the batteries are exhausted. The report indicates those functions being lost once the batteries go below 200 volts. Can you help us understand some of the technical details?

Thanks again to the industry professionals on this board. Nuclear power has been an interest of mine for a long time, and I appreciate the time and energy you have given to enlighten the rest of us!

Offline hamsamich

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #730 on: Apr 28, 2011, 09:37 »



sell crazy someplace else realitycheck.  you only look at what you want to see.

Nuclear Renaissance

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #731 on: Apr 28, 2011, 10:53 »
I came across this article regarding a postulated BWR station blackout. http://www.ornl.gov/info/reports/1981/3445600211884.pdf. In my limited understanding of the finer points of nuclear power, is this a fairly accurate description of the early stages of the Fukushima incident? Granted they flooded the drywell before the core went through the floor, and it seems that Fukushima lasted longer on/after batteries than the projection indicated. The report shows the two most likely failure points of containment as a rupture of the torus, and the electrical penetration seal. Its been reported that the torus may have cracked at unit 2. Also, do you think the reports of contaminated water in an electrical trench would be consistant with a failure of the drywell electrical penetration seal?

An additional question. In the earlier pages of this post, many of you have indicated that HPCI and RCIC can be operated manually once the batteries are exhausted. The report indicates those functions being lost once the batteries go below 200 volts. Can you help us understand some of the technical details?

Thanks again to the industry professionals on this board. Nuclear power has been an interest of mine for a long time, and I appreciate the time and energy you have given to enlighten the rest of us!

There is no evidence thus far that the failed fuel breached the reactor vessels in any of the Fukushima reactors. You would be looking at reactor vessel-to-primary containment pressure equalization and very high bottom head temperatures (what is referred to as “core breach signature”).

There is indication that primary containment ruptured in Unit 2. The station blackout analysis you referenced assumes that it would have ruptured due to eventual overpressurization due to loss of containment cooling systems (all AC-powered); however in the case of Fukushima it was due to an internal hydrogen detonation . BWR/4s now have a primary containment vent capability that can be used to avoid the former. Unfortunately without AC power, hydrogen mitigation is difficult; it can be tough to vent all the hydrogen out without the nitrogen dilution system available to help purge it (again, AC-powered), and unfortunately for Fukushima, their vent system went directly to their reactor building secondary containment, where it detonated at units 1&3 anyway. Some plants vent to the outside, which in hindsight is a better idea, but this method of venting is an aftermarket mod aimed at reducing core damage frequency, and not tech spec required.

HPCI needs DC power to operate – it is a large system and I don’t know of any plants that have a contingency for local manual operation. Once batteries run out, RCIC can be operated locally (some operators call it “riding RCIC”, since you end up straddling 1000 psig steam supplies). However, as mentioned above, with AC-powered containment cooling lost, eventually containment pressures get so high that they impose too much backpressure on the RCIC turbine exhaust, and it will fail.

Water in cable trenches doesn’t necessarily mean an electrical penetration breach – those trenches are just lowpoints, and with the amount of external injection that was going on, the water just found its way there. There is a unit 2 break somewhere, though, since the primary containment pressure very quickly went to atmosphere, and water with fuel fragment traces had been identified.
« Last Edit: Apr 28, 2011, 11:09 by Nuclear Renaissance »

Offline a|F

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #732 on: Apr 28, 2011, 03:48 »
http://www.ornl.gov/info/reports/1981/3445600211884.pdf.

Thanks for the link!  I took the liberty to repost it at physicsforums as that is easily the best ongoing discussion about this unfortunate disaster...

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=480200&page=332

RealityCheck

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #733 on: Apr 28, 2011, 04:59 »



sell crazy someplace else realitycheck.  you only look at what you want to see.

Funny video :)  We all only look at what we want to see...it's been called the confirmation bias...we should all go back to school, don't you think?

Offline namlive

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #734 on: Apr 28, 2011, 09:35 »
There is no evidence thus far that the failed fuel breached the reactor vessels in any of the Fukushima reactors. You would be looking at reactor vessel-to-primary containment pressure equalization and very high bottom head temperatures (what is referred to as “core breach signature”).

I was reading the  reports and according to the core temperature reading variations they suspect Unit 2' s core is sitting on the concrete floor. The cores are so damaged that even if they get power to various cooling systems, they may not work due to blockage. Plus if they do work, you will be transporting damaged fuel through the system...won't that be fun. MORE LEAD!
No one gets out alive.

caerbannog

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #735 on: Apr 28, 2011, 09:46 »
I was reading the  reports and according to the core temperature reading variations they suspect Unit 2' s core is sitting on the concrete floor. The cores are so damaged that even if they get power to various cooling systems, they may not work due to blockage. Plus if they do work, you will be transporting damaged fuel through the system...won't that be fun. MORE LEAD!

How would you verify that?  Is there a base slab that has a gap between the reactor and the concrete?  Or would it fill the area where the torus is located?

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #736 on: Apr 29, 2011, 02:04 »
I was reading the  reports and according to the core temperature reading variations they suspect Unit 2' s core is sitting on the concrete floor. The cores are so damaged that even if they get power to various cooling systems, they may not work due to blockage. Plus if they do work, you will be transporting damaged fuel through the system...won't that be fun. MORE LEAD!

How would they have measured "core temperature reading variations" if the core was sitting on the ground lol.  Also, core spray systems would be recirculation through the torus and core and wouldnt really be spreading any more fuel then would already be present...  That said, radiation levels would sky rocket and would be the real indication, not fuel temperature. Thermocouples would be long destroyed before measuring that level.


How would you verify that?  Is there a base slab that has a gap between the reactor and the concrete?  Or would it fill the area where the torus is located?

the mark 1 containment has the reactor over the torus, and the ring doesnt sit underneath the reactor. It wouldnt touch the torus unless it expelled out violently vice "melted through", so itd be sitting in the drywell if anything.


« Last Edit: Apr 29, 2011, 02:08 by Charlie Murphy »

Nuclear Renaissance

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #737 on: Apr 29, 2011, 05:13 »
I was reading the  reports and according to the core temperature reading variations they suspect Unit 2' s core is sitting on the concrete floor. The cores are so damaged that even if they get power to various cooling systems, they may not work due to blockage. Plus if they do work, you will be transporting damaged fuel through the system...won't that be fun. MORE LEAD!

I haven't seen such a report - can you provide a link?

Indeed the core geometries are likely badly damaged, but this far after shutdown you can worry less about preserving the clear flowpath through the core and can instead just mitigate by keeping the vessel bottom flooded. This of course becomes impossible if the core has melted through the vessel to the floor, which is why you hear about primary containment flooding contingencies. I have not seen any industry person yet say that they believe the core have melted to the containment floor, though.

Cycoticpenguin

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Offline namlive

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #739 on: Apr 30, 2011, 06:02 »
How would they have measured "core temperature reading variations" if the core was sitting on the ground lol.  Also, core spray systems would be recirculation through the torus and core and wouldnt really be spreading any more fuel then would already be present...  That said, radiation levels would sky rocket and would be the real indication, not fuel temperature. Thermocouples would be long destroyed before measuring that level.

the mark 1 containment has the reactor over the torus, and the ring doesnt sit underneath the reactor. It wouldnt touch the torus unless it expelled out violently vice "melted through", so itd be sitting in the drywell if anything.


For those of us who have actually been in drywells the floor is concrete. The core temps are perhaps misleading as they are actual inlet and outlet variations, reflective of core temps.

Richard Lahey, who was head of safety research for boiling water reactors at General Electric when the company installed the units at the Japan plant, says the radioactive core in the Unit 2 reactor appears to have melted through the bottom of its containment vessel and on a concrete floor.

“The indications we have, from the reactor to radiation readings and the materials they are seeing, suggest that the core has melted through the bottom of the pressure vessel in unit two, and at least some of it is down on the floor of the drywell,” Lahey told the paper.
Lahey did add there was no danger of a Chernobyl-style catastrophe.
http://homelandsecuritynewswire.com/fukushima-daiichi-nuclear-plant-lost
http://hotair.com/headlines/archives/2011/03/29/nuclear-expert-japanese-reactor-core-has-probably-melted-through-containment-vessel/


IAEA report 3/21: Unit 2

Coolant within Unit 2 is covering about half of the fuel rods in the reactor, and Japanese authorities believe the core has been damaged. Following an explosion on 15 March, Japanese officials expressed concerns that the reactor's containment may not be fully intact. As of 19 March, 11:30 UTC, officials could no longer confirm seeing white smoke coming from the building. Smoke had been observed emerging from the reactor earlier. White smoke/vapour was observed again from 9:22 UTC on 21 March and diminished to nearly invisible by 22:11 UTC the same day. During the time of smoke emission, an increase in radiation dose rates was reported at 9:30 UTC 21 March. TEPCO then ordered an evacuation of plant personnel, though workers returned as of 00:00 UTC 22 March
No one gets out alive.

Offline namlive

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #740 on: May 06, 2011, 07:20 »
I have talked to someone who has just returned from Japan. They were helping them establish boundries in the country side, 20 miles away from the plant where they have mrad smearable. Foreign visitors were not allowed near the coast.

The fact is they don't have enough people to monitor. They don't have enough instruments. They don't know at what levels they should tell the people it is okay, or if they can plant crops or what crops to plant. They could use mobile labs, but no one seems to have suggested that idea. I used to do Sr separations in a trailer using stone knives and pitch forks and got the same results as B and W Lynchberg. How difficult would it be to ship trailers with WBCs, GeLi counters, and wet labs? Seems like there is a lot more things we could be doing...and alot more money to be made in the future.
No one gets out alive.

Offline namlive

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #741 on: May 08, 2011, 07:33 »
I don't think it is that bad. I am starting to feel good about being able to play fantasy football this fall.
No one gets out alive.

Offline Frankie Love

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #742 on: May 12, 2011, 09:34 »
Have you seen these yet?

http://nuclearstreet.com/newsletters/5_11_11.html

A lot of "junk in their trunk"

bismuth-210

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #743 on: May 18, 2011, 05:40 »
can anyone tell us how the 'simpsons' containment dome is coming along ?

can't hardly find any good news in the press re: fukushima these days.

Offline OldHP

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #744 on: May 18, 2011, 06:35 »
can anyone tell us how the 'simpsons' containment dome is coming along ?
can't hardly find any good news in the press re: fukushima these days. 

Don't expect to, it is old news as far as the 'press' is concerned. They have much more 'sensational' things to mis-report on!

JMO   [dowave]
Humor is a wonderful way to prevent hardening of the attitudes! unknown
The government is like a baby's alimentary canal, with a happy appetite at one end and no responsibility at the other. Regan

Offline namlive

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #745 on: May 18, 2011, 07:11 »
The IAEA which was making daily reports, seems to have gone to weekly reports even though the situation is still "serious" and they got tons of highly radioactive water all over the place. Ideas to flood the drywell as well as process and reuse the water are being floated.

Arnold's wife has split. Don and Huck-No. Newt-yes. Bin Laden-dead. William and Kate married. Topless Pippa photos. IMF in jail. It has been a busy spring. Oh yes and the world is going to end May 21... from a guy who has predicted the end of the world before.
No one gets out alive.

RAD-GHOST

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #746 on: May 19, 2011, 05:39 »
Oh yes and the world is going to end May 21... from a guy who has predicted the end of the world before.

Did bismuth-210 make that prediction..... ::)


Offline RDTroja

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #747 on: May 19, 2011, 08:32 »
...Oh yes and the world is going to end May 21... from a guy who has predicted the end of the world before.

Was he right the first time? If so, we better get ready!
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Offline UncaBuffalo

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #748 on: May 20, 2011, 06:30 »
http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,2058823,00.html

No new information, but some very interesting photos...
We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner! I can’t think what anybody sees in them.      - B. Baggins

MacGyver

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #749 on: May 20, 2011, 07:26 »
can anyone tell us how the 'simpsons' containment dome is coming along ?

can't hardly find any good news in the press re: fukushima these days.


Well as soon as you come up with our request for documentation we might be helpful to you in return.

Just a reminder, we are still waiting for that email:
in case you didn't get the email, a strong pro-nuke talking point is that if the plants go offline, then we will be forced to live in caves or endure rolling blackouts.  this is often parroted by IP supporters, which is close to NYC.

« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 07:29 by MacGyver »

 


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