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Offline Zog

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #450 on: Mar 17, 2011, 02:13 »
Some good news, finally. (From World nuclear news)

There are now 130 new personel at the plant, nuclear experts, engineers, rescue, military.

Several fire trucks are pumping water into the spent fuel pool and the best news, they have restored one of the emergency diesels so they now have power to the pumps to cool the cores. Unless something unexpected happens, it looks like the worst is behind us.


Offline hamsamich

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #451 on: Mar 17, 2011, 02:15 »
I hope the pool has enough integrity left to hold water!!  Don't know how damaged it is.  Good news though.

Offline Marlin

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #452 on: Mar 17, 2011, 02:19 »
Some of you may remember Admiral Rickover’s response to a fuel element failure on a (I think 585 class) submarine – (I’m paraphrasing) continue to operate it and monitor its degradation over time.  Essentially, we’ll hopefully never have another opportunity like this from which to learn, but we have it so let’s make the best of it.  Let me be clear, that none of us wanted an accident of this magnitude to ever Ever EVER occur – but it did and we must deal with the consequences rationally and responsibly.

    I know you are generalizing the comparison between the two to make a point, but let's not let anyone think that Rickover operated with failed fuel. Without delving into the construction differences between the highly engineered Navy fuel and the commercial fuel in use. A decision to operate with a scratch on one bundle of Navy fuel is a much different than an out of control plant due to a 1000 year accident that was beyond the safety basis.
   I do agree with your intent though that is an opportunity to learn. We learned from TMI that our assumptions for the spread of Iodine were too conservative and that the plants are well designed and should be trusted including your indications from your instrumentation. We also have newer designs of reactors that rely on more passive safety designs that do not require or require very little outside systems or power.
« Last Edit: Mar 17, 2011, 02:21 by Marlin »

Xenon_Free

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #453 on: Mar 17, 2011, 02:23 »
Easy people.  This board is starting to look like a free fall into hysteria.  There are some good questions, thought provoking to be sure, that have been posted but these problems remain... controlled.  All is not well with these plants, some to a greater extent than others - but that does not mean lets get the helicopters were out of time.  Calm, rational, and above all informed decisions need to be made prior to taking ANY action.  People with a whole lot more information than we have, and who I am sure are a lot smarter than me, are watching this closely.  If they are smart, they will have ditchpoints set up and stick to them.  That is if rad release rates reach X we go option b, at Y release rate we commence option c,  and entomb it.  At no point should this be a carpet bombing of sand and boric acid and cement.  Strategic dumps, should they be necessary, should suffice.

I believe it premature to just write it all off.  Things are bad, but they are not in freefall.

XF
« Last Edit: Mar 17, 2011, 02:26 by Xenon_Free »

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #454 on: Mar 17, 2011, 02:27 »
Some good news, finally. (From World nuclear news)

There are now 130 new personel at the plant, nuclear experts, engineers, rescue, military.

Several fire trucks are pumping water into the spent fuel pool and the best news, they have restored one of the emergency diesels so they now have power to the pumps to cool the cores. Unless something unexpected happens, it looks like the worst is behind us.



LINKS!!! this is FANTASTIC news. Probably would have saved a lot of headache if they would have reported this to begin with (I imagine the plan was there from the get go).


Xe -> We're not hysterical. Just raising the questions and opening them for our community to answer. I think we all have the required baseline knowledge to know this isnt any kind of chernobyl-esque incident. The secrecy of the japanese reporting just isnt helping the PR side of this.



Heres some fantastic info. Despite whats happened, heres the latest casualty report


Injuries

2 TEPCO employees have minor injuries
2 subcontractor employees are injured, one person suffered broken legs and one person whose condition is unknown was transported to the hospital
2 people are missing
2 people were 'suddenly taken ill'
2 TEPCO employees were transported to hospital during the time of donning respiratory protection in the control centre
4 people (2 TEPCO employees, 2 subcontractor employees) sustained minor injuries due to the explosion at unit 1 on 11 March and were transported to the hospital
11 people (4 TEPCO employees, 3 subcontractor employees and 4 Japanese civil defense workers) were injured due to the explosion at unit 3 on 14 March
Radiological Contamination

17 people (9 TEPCO employees, 8 subcontractor employees) suffered from deposition of radioactive material to their faces, but were not taken to the hospital because of low levels of exposure
One worker suffered from significant exposure during 'vent work,' and was transported to an offsite center
2 policemen who were exposed to radiation were decontaminated
Firemen who were exposed to radiation are under investigation
The IAEA continues to seek information from Japanese authorities about all aspects of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant.


« Last Edit: Mar 17, 2011, 02:34 by Charlie Murphy »

Offline Zog

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #455 on: Mar 17, 2011, 02:48 »
I hope the pool has enough integrity left to hold water!!  Don't know how damaged it is.  Good news though.

Mighty putty? :)
https://www.buymightyputtynow.com/flare/next?rtag=mightyputty&

Offline Nuclear NASCAR

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #456 on: Mar 17, 2011, 02:49 »

Xe -> We're not hysterical. Just raising the questions and opening them for our community to answer. I think we all have the required baseline knowledge to know this isn't any kind of chernobyl-esque incident. The secrecy of the Japanese reporting just isn't helping the PR side of this.

Charlie,
My take (& we all know I could be wrong) is the reminder that this fantastic discussion can be understood by many of us as talk around this virtual breakroom table that is Nukeworker.  The perception by some or even just one of the 63 guests who were viewing this just recently COULD BE "See I told you we were all doomed!" based on their interpretation of it.

I agree wholeheartedly that the reporting isn't helping the PR side, at least here in the States.  I don't believe that it is totally a subterfuge on their part but more cultural.  (Again, I could be totally off-base)

One thing I AM CERTAIN OF is what our next SOER report will be.  I do look forward to our lessons learned and continue to keep our brethren over there in my thoughts & prayers.

Peace, (Shamelessly stolen from Marssim)

Tom  
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Nuclear Renaissance

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #457 on: Mar 17, 2011, 02:53 »
Some good news, finally. (From World nuclear news)

There are now 130 new personel at the plant, nuclear experts, engineers, rescue, military.

Several fire trucks are pumping water into the spent fuel pool and the best news, they have restored one of the emergency diesels so they now have power to the pumps to cool the cores. Unless something unexpected happens, it looks like the worst is behind us.



The EDG is for Units 5&6, which are the ones in relativley good shape.

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #458 on: Mar 17, 2011, 02:57 »
Charlie,
My take (& we all know I could be wrong) is the reminder that this fantastic discussion can be understood by many of us as talk around this virtual breakroom table that is Nukeworker.  The perception by some or even just one of the 63 guests who were viewing this just recently COULD BE "See I told you we were all doomed!" based on their interpretation of it.

I agree wholeheartedly that the reporting isn't helping the PR side, at least here in the States.  I don't believe that it is totally a subterfuge on their part but more cultural.  (Again, I could be totally off-base)

One thing I AM CERTAIN OF is what our next SOER report will be.  I do look forward to our lessons learned and continue to keep our brethren over there in my thoughts & prayers.

Peace, (Shamelessly stolen from Marssim)

Tom  

edit: I do understand your point, I will try to phrase questions differently.

Id ASSume that the members who are going to think that, are also paying dear attention to MSNBC and eating every word of it up too. Their ignorance shouldnt prevent us from asking questions should it?
« Last Edit: Mar 17, 2011, 03:01 by Charlie Murphy »

Offline Marlin

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #459 on: Mar 17, 2011, 02:57 »
   I have followed this thread closely, this one has been a very good, and much more professional than some of our other threads that can descend into meandering thought and squabbling. I don't know about the other forum staff but I personally am very happy with the conduct and contribution that has been provided so far. Please don't take this wrong, the gentle reminders and moderation by participants is much preferred to any active moderation by the Forum staff.


Thanx, everyone is doing a great job
Marlin,
Moderator

Xe -> We're not hysterical. Just raising the questions and opening them for our community to answer. I think we all have the required baseline knowledge to know this isnt any kind of chernobyl-esque incident. The secrecy of the japanese reporting just isnt helping the PR side of this.

Easy people.  This board is starting to look like a free fall into hysteria.  There are some good questions, thought provoking to be sure, that have been posted but these problems remain... controlled.  All is not well with these plants, some to a greater extent than others - but that does not mean lets get the helicopters were out of time.  Calm, rational, and above all informed decisions need to be made prior to taking ANY action.  People with a whole lot more information than we have, and who I am sure are a lot smarter than me, are watching this closely.  If they are smart, they will have ditchpoints set up and stick to them.  That is if rad release rates reach X we go option b, at Y release rate we commence option c,  and entomb it.  At no point should this be a carpet bombing of sand and boric acid and cement.  Strategic dumps, should they be necessary, should suffice.

I believe it premature to just write it all off.  Things are bad, but they are not in freefall.

XF


Offline Marlin

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #460 on: Mar 17, 2011, 03:04 »
I don't know about the other forum staff but I personally am very happy with the conduct and contribution that has been provided so far. Please don't take this wrong, the gentle reminders and moderation by participants is much preferred to any active moderation by the Forum staff.

Clearly we do know, Tom weighed in while I was composing.  [coffee]

Thanx Tom,

Charlie,
My take (& we all know I could be wrong) is the reminder that this fantastic discussion can be understood by many of us as talk around this virtual breakroom table that is Nukeworker.  The perception by some or even just one of the 63 guests who were viewing this just recently COULD BE "See I told you we were all doomed!" based on their interpretation of it.

I agree wholeheartedly that the reporting isn't helping the PR side, at least here in the States.  I don't believe that it is totally a subterfuge on their part but more cultural.  (Again, I could be totally off-base)

One thing I AM CERTAIN OF is what our next SOER report will be.  I do look forward to our lessons learned and continue to keep our brethren over there in my thoughts & prayers.

Peace, (Shamelessly stolen from Marssim)

Tom 


JustinHEMI05

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #461 on: Mar 17, 2011, 03:42 »
The NRC is already looking into US plants. I didn't bring a copy of the document home to list specifics, but each plant has to answer a list of questions by the 24th, pertaining to readiness for such events.

Justin

Xenon_Free

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #462 on: Mar 17, 2011, 03:46 »
Now is definitely not a time to bury our head in the sand and push our "I believe" buttons.  The situation has been out of "control" for days.

There are measures of control.  I do not have complete "control" over anything, except possibly my own actions.  The situation in three reactors is rough, but they have injection which means cooling, there is, as far as we know, no core breach (fuel outside of the reactor).  We have venting of containment which means cooling water can continue to be injected.  Containment is mainly intact around these reactors for all three - again as far as we know.  Any dropping of the "triple cocktail" on these three reactors will serve no purpose except to prevent further efforts to get on top of the situation there.  The pools right now have water being pumped in at what I would guess is tremendous flowrates.  The pools may require the cement and sand and boric acid but they are not there yet.  Situations can change and degrade fast in any catastrophe, nuclear power plants especially, but in my opinion we still have some measure of control.


My opinion is worth the price you paid for it,
XF

EDIT: we = they.  I can not help but to put myself in their shoes, so I default to using "we".  Sorry.
« Last Edit: Mar 17, 2011, 04:57 by Xenon_Free »

dave in St. Louis

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #463 on: Mar 17, 2011, 03:48 »
The BBC is reporting that TEPCO has gotten a power line onto the site.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12779512

Offline PJMcG

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #464 on: Mar 17, 2011, 04:10 »
There is a Wikipedia page dedicated to the accident that is updated fairly regularly.  I can't speak for its veracity, but it does contain a time line and the only place I've found with any appreciable information regarding attempted solutions to the problems with loss of power and cooling as well as damage and fire suppression efforts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_I_nuclear_accidents

As with everything else you see, take it with a grain of salt and always confirm to the best of your ability and resources.

PJ
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Offline vagabond

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #465 on: Mar 17, 2011, 05:40 »
The NRC is already looking into US plants. I didn't bring a copy of the document home to list specifics, but each plant has to answer a list of questions by the 24th, pertaining to readiness for such events.

Justin

The NRC or INPO?  We received an INPO limited distribution document that sounds very familiar to what you're talking about.
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skarekrow6

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #466 on: Mar 17, 2011, 06:19 »
This is the 2nd update we here at the Nevada Test Site have received on some of the CMRT crew that flew over on Monday from Nellis AFB-------
Got a call from Kevin ****** this afternoon (time in Japan is 16 hours ahead, so 3 PM our time is 7 AM Japan time, next day).  They are staying at Yokota Air Base (a USAF base) (www.yokota.af.mil) (100 mi. west of Tokyo) and working out of a hanger.  He said he and Ray ****** had a driver take them to the US Embassy yesterday, and while he and Ray were taking an air sample and swipes on the roof, they were hit with a 6.2 magnitude quake.
They are getting 20 uR/hr general area dose rate readings, which he thought were background, and 0 on the swipes.  They were detecting iodine in the air samples.  Ray asked for 10,000-15,000 more swipes and 10 boxes of swipe envelopes, which Paul ********** is getting over to RSL for shipment tomorrow.  I guess they’re planning on being busy.

Kevin, Ray, and Paul ***** are working days , and Rob ****** is working nights.

If you want to talk to them, Kevin has an RSL cell phone (***-***-****) and will have it with him today.

  We will all (NTS CMRT RCT's) get a rotation in Japan. Wish us luck


Edited By Rennhack: Removed peoples last names and phone number, which appeared to have been used without permission.
« Last Edit: Mar 18, 2011, 04:29 by Rennhack »

Offline DDMurray

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #467 on: Mar 17, 2011, 06:21 »
The NRC or INPO?  We received an INPO limited distribution document that sounds very familiar to what you're talking about.

.......nuclear utilities across the country are taking actions to address vulnerabilities
identified as a result of considering the occurrence of extreme events at U.S. nuclear power
plants that are well beyond those that were considered in the design of the plants. Several
of these actions are being coordinated by the Institute of Nuclear Power Operations (INPO),
an industry organization which promotes excellence and the highest levels of reliability in
the operation of commercial nuclear power plants.
INPO distributed a Level 1 Event Report this week that provides recommendations for
utilities to take due to the unusual nature of events and significant damage that has
occurred to the six units of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power station following a
magnitude 9.0 earthquake and subsequent tsunami on March 11, 2011.
The teams staffing centralized response centers and satellite centers at the nuclear
sites will ensure actions associated with INPO’s recommendations are performed as
expected. Even though the full extent of damage to the Fukushima Daiichi reactors is still unknown,
this represents a significant challenge to the safety of these units. As more is learned
about the Japanese events, INPO said that more long-term actions will be developed. The
recommendations provided by INPO this week to senior executives representing all U.S.
nuclear power plants include:
 Verify each company’s capability to mitigate conditions that result from severe adverse
events, including the loss of significant operational and safety systems due to natural
events, fires, aircraft impact and explosions. Specific actions include testing and
inspecting equipment required to mitigate these events and verifying that qualifications
of operators and support staff required to implement them are current.
 Verify that the capability to mitigate a total loss of electric power to a nuclear power
plant is proper and functional. This will require inspections verifying that all required
materials are adequate and properly staged and that procedures are implemented.
 Verify the capability to mitigate flooding and the impact of floods on systems inside
and outside the plant. Specific actions include verifying required materials and
equipment are properly located to protect them from flood.
 Perform walk downs and inspection of important equipment needed to successfully
respond to fire and flood events. Identify the potential that the equipment’s function
could be lost during seismic events appropriate for the site and develop mitigating
strategies for potential vulnerabilities.
The nuclear industry’s priority remains providing Japan with any support requested to help
maintain safety at the Fukushima reactors. Industry updates on the situation in Japan are
available from the Nuclear Energy Institute and the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
T. Roosevelt

JustinHEMI05

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #468 on: Mar 17, 2011, 06:23 »
The NRC or INPO?  We received an INPO limited distribution document that sounds very familiar to what you're talking about.

It may have been INPO, but I could swear I saw the NRC crest on it when I glanced over it, but I was more interested in other things at the time so I didn't pay that close attention. Either way, we have something to respond to. :)

Local newpapers and news here is reporting "Beaver Valley only able to withstand 5.8!! OMG!!!!!"  >:( >:( [BH] [BH] [censored] [censored] [RTFM]
« Last Edit: Mar 17, 2011, 06:25 by JustinHEMI »

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #469 on: Mar 17, 2011, 06:34 »
It may have been INPO, but I could swear I saw the NRC crest on it when I glanced over it, but I was more interested in other things at the time so I didn't pay that close attention. Either way, we have something to respond to. :)

Local newpapers and news here is reporting "Beaver Valley only able to withstand 5.8!! OMG!!!!!"  >:( >:( [BH] [BH] [censored] [censored] [RTFM]

Well, when the techtonic plates under central usa shift, I know what plant im gonna stay away from! :)

Xenon_Free

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #470 on: Mar 17, 2011, 06:56 »
The challenge from INPO to ensure plant readiness is excellent.  I am very proud of this decisive, formal, and comprehensive look at our plants ability to cope with beyond design disasters.  This is exactly the type of look at ourselves that will doubtlessly reveal some shortcomings that can be addressed swiftly before they are relied upon to protect the public, should they ever be needed.

XF
« Last Edit: Mar 17, 2011, 06:58 by Xenon_Free »

JustinHEMI05

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #471 on: Mar 17, 2011, 07:05 »
The challenge from INPO to ensure plant readiness is excellent.  I am very proud of this decisive, formal, and comprehensive look at our plants ability to cope with beyond design disasters.  This is exactly the type of look at ourselves that will doubtlessly reveal some shortcomings that can be addressed swiftly before they are relied upon to protect the public, should they ever be needed.

XF

Yup, I am just glad I am not the one that has to answer it. We are in outage so no one is available except the Ops ILT sup, and he ain't happy about it either. :D

Justin

Offline navynukedoc

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #472 on: Mar 17, 2011, 07:08 »

I dont understand why they are trying to "save the situation" anymore. Isnt it time to bring out the lead and steel? Even with 1000R/hr radiation level a fifteen minute drop from a helicopter would only be 166 R. (yes "only", I get it). Last I checked 166 Rem acute dose would be a somatic effect and prognosis would be good (95%+). Even then, 1000R/hr at the pool wouldnt be what they would get in a helicopter. EPA limit is 75 rem for lifesaving, does preventing a massive release of radiation count towards this?
 

I agree. Total core meltdown isn't a matter of "IF" anymore as we all have agreed it is now a "WHEN."

Get them out and seal it off best you can. [2cents]
"Be courteous to all, but intimate with few, and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence" - George Washington

skarekrow6

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #473 on: Mar 17, 2011, 07:09 »
No need to redact (retract?) any names or phone numbers. I want the world to see Ray and Kevins names, and Rob's for that matter. If you've been in the business (nuke) long enough, these three birds should ring a bell somewhere. Come back safe guys. My turn is comin soon.
 the link below shows the CMRT team loading up.....

Offline DDMurray

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #474 on: Mar 17, 2011, 07:12 »
One of the things that I've thought merits consideration is examining the number of units at a single site.  During a cataclysmic event like the earthquake in Japan, having multiple design basis accidents going on at the same time is beyond the response capability of even the best-trained, most-experienced organizations.  Loss of power and/or cooling water at the same time is bad enough at a single unit, but imagine being the Shift Manager with 3 simultaneous ECA 0.0's going on at the same time.   Add to that the inability of response organizations being able to make it back to work puts an enormous burden on the crew standing the watch.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
T. Roosevelt

 


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