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Offline Roll Tide

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #500 on: Mar 18, 2011, 08:25 »
I found this article quite disturbing:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703818204576207012491767884.html?mod=WSJ_newsreel_business

Quote
On Tuesday, Tepco requested 10 GE truck-mounted gas turbines, which can provide temporary power, for use in the emergency-response effort. The power plant's backup diesel generators and their fuel supplies were destroyed by the tsunami. GE said that three of the 10 trucks are ready in Florida, awaiting air transport.   



Why aren't some of these trucks already on their way to Japan? All it takes is making the transport high enough priority; for example the Commander-in-Chief could direct the dispatch of a few C-17's......
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Offline Zog

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #501 on: Mar 18, 2011, 09:14 »
I found this article quite disturbing:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703818204576207012491767884.html?mod=WSJ_newsreel_business
 


Why aren't some of these trucks already on their way to Japan? All it takes is making the transport high enough priority; for example the Commander-in-Chief could direct the dispatch of a few C-17's......

GE is waiting for the purchase order? :)

Offline MM1 subnuke

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #502 on: Mar 18, 2011, 09:21 »
I just listened to the radio broadcast posted earlier regarding the Nuclear Scientist explaining g things in laymens terms for the general public.  It was excellent and she did a wonderful job of placing things in perspective.  We need to get her interviewed by as many media outlets as possible.

Offline tr

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #503 on: Mar 18, 2011, 10:58 »
I wonder if they are using any of the remote controller helicopters available to help find out the status.  They're not radiation hardened, but they might last long enough to get some images from of the spent fuel pools.

http://www.rchelicopter.com/category/rc-helicopter-film-digital-video-still-camera-systems/

http://www.draganfly.com/industrial/products.php

Offline navynukedoc

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #504 on: Mar 18, 2011, 11:12 »
GE is waiting for the purchase order? :)

Ugh! Isn't that the truth?!  [BH]
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Offline Zog

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #505 on: Mar 18, 2011, 11:17 »
I just watched the live NRC briefing on CNN. In a nutshell they said this accident will put a huge damper on new plant construction and will delay license renewals by 12-24 months as they focus on lessons learned. They also hinted at making storage pools 1E.

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #506 on: Mar 18, 2011, 11:19 »
GE is waiting for the purchase order? :)

GE will be waiting quite some time for some other purchase orders  ;) I'll bet there are quite a few folks on the ABWR project that could help out on the loading dock...

Offline PJMcG

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #507 on: Mar 18, 2011, 01:02 »
LA Times Story: States workers attempting to restore power had to retreat due to hi radiation.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-sci-japan-reactor-damage-20110318,0,7832119.story

This is not a very optimistic article.  It has been remarkably quiet today.  I hope that we enter a phase where power is restored, SFP levels are reestablished, rad levels drop, and then I would expect news to dry up as the clean up begins in earnest.  I don't think we're there yet and that's why the lack of news bothers me.

Anybody have any information to the contrary?

Thanks,

PJ
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Offline Touche

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #508 on: Mar 18, 2011, 01:21 »
LA Times Story: States workers attempting to restore power had to retreat due to hi radiation.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-sci-japan-reactor-damage-20110318,0,7832119.story

This is not a very optimistic article.  It has been remarkably quiet today.  I hope that we enter a phase where power is restored, SFP levels are reestablished, rad levels drop, and then I would expect news to dry up as the clean up begins in earnest.  I don't think we're there yet and that's why the lack of news bothers me.

Anybody have any information to the contrary?

Thanks,

PJ

The article says "repeatedly" not "retreated", is it possible that they are surveying their way in, establishing shield walls, and rotating workers to equalize dose?

Offline PJMcG

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #509 on: Mar 18, 2011, 01:51 »
While 'retreat' is not the exact word (and I am the first to admit we are suffering from a lack of precision in these reports), here is the first sentence of the above referenced article:

"Efforts to try to restore power to reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi complex are interrupted as high radiation forces the withdrawal of workers. "

The operative phrase being "... HIGH RADIATION FORCES THE WITHDRAWAL OF WORKERS."

You say withdrawal, I say retreat ... any Gershwin fans?
"By its paw shall you know the lion."

Offline Zog

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #510 on: Mar 18, 2011, 01:56 »
GE will be waiting quite some time for some other purchase orders  ;) I'll bet there are quite a few folks on the ABWR project that could help out on the loading dock...

Obviously I was kidding but seriously I do not see what the hold up is for power. US Army has 75 5kV 750kW mobile generators capable of being airlifted in. Where are they? I understand the issues with roads torn up, radiation levels, overall chaos but a week without having power back is a joke. I don't care what was damaged, mobile substations are easy to find (I have a bunch of them).

To me the only logical (?) reason is the government has not allowed or asked for assistance, or waited too long.

Offline Zog

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Offline Touche

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #512 on: Mar 18, 2011, 02:11 »
While 'retreat' is not the exact word (and I am the first to admit we are suffering from a lack of precision in these reports), here is the first sentence of the above referenced article:

"Efforts to try to restore power to reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi complex are interrupted as high radiation forces the withdrawal of workers. "

The operative phrase being "... HIGH RADIATION FORCES THE WITHDRAWAL OF WORKERS."

You say withdrawal, I say retreat ... any Gershwin fans?

PJ, I was a publisher of a newspaper for a little over 3 years...you quote the heading which is designed to capture a person's attention...the body of the text says, "...but their task was repeatedly interrupted by the need to withdraw workers because of high radiation levels."

Either interpretation is possible given the circumstances, but I usually rely on the body text; not headlines.

jongular

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #513 on: Mar 18, 2011, 03:31 »
Here is an article I received from my father in law, I believe it was from the New York Times editorial desk

011 03 18

OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR. Homer Simpson Need Not Apply. By MICHAEL FRIEDLANDER. Michael Friedlander is a nuclear engineer.. Hong Kong

WATCHING the coverage of the crisis at the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station unfold on TV, I was reminded of my own close call with a nuclear emergency.

In 1988 I was a newly minted shift technical adviser at the South Texas Project, a power plant near the Gulf Coast. Hurricane Gilbert, at the time a Category 5 storm, was bearing down on us. I received word from plant management that all workers should leave except for critical plant personnel like myself. I called my wife and told her to go inland with our 4-month-old daughter. Eventually the storm weakened and turned south. But there was never a question: my team and I would stay, regardless of what happened.

The situation facing the 50 workers left at Fukushima is a nuclear operator's worst nightmare. Fortunately, despite harrowing situations like mine, almost none of us will ever deal with anything like it. But the knowledge that a nuclear crisis could occur, and that we might be the only people standing in the way of a meltdown, defines every aspect of an operator's life.

The field attracts a very particular kind of person. I became a nuclear worker in the 1980s, in the wake of the oil crises of the 1970s. Nuclear power, for all its risks, seemed like the best alternative, and people like me who signed up at the time saw ourselves as the guardians of America's energy future. We were the ones who would prevent the risks of nuclear power from becoming a reality, who would keep the plants safe and, in turn, the country's way of life secure.

The same spirit motivates today's workers. Contrary to the depiction of nuclear operators as bumbling slackers in 'The Simpsons,' the typical employee is more like a cross between a jet pilot and a firefighter: highly trained to keep a technically complex system running, but also prepared to be the first and usually only line of defense in an emergency.

Training to be a senior reactor operator takes up to two years and involves demonstrating one's ability to process complex, sometimes contradictory information rapidly and under intense pressure. The training regimen also grinds into us the overwhelming importance of staying put in an emergency situation, even at great risk to our own safety. There are simply too many contingencies and too many functions that require close observation for an emergency to be handled remotely.

And so while the world wondered why the workers at the Fukushima plant didn't flee, my fellow nuclear operators and I weren't surprised. One employee is reported to have received a significant dose of radiation while trying to vent pressure on one of the reactor's containment vessels. There is no question that this act saved countless lives. But there is also no question that the operator acted knowing full well that he could suffer long-term injury from doing so.

Those of us in the industry are also watching the management of the crisis. It's easy to be critical, from a distance, and while I have yet to see anything that smacks of negligence or mishandling, a few obvious questions come to mind.

For one thing, considering the difficulties of managing a nuclear accident within a disaster zone, was the plant staff provided with the necessary technical support and equipment? It's also clear that procedures need to be in place for better handling of the insatiable demand for information from the news media. Finally, given the multiple problems at Fukushima, we should revisit the standard protocol for dealing with a nuclear emergency, which assumes a problem with a single reactor, even at a multiunit site.

We will likely hear numerous stories of heroism over the next several days, of plant operators struggling to keep water flowing into the reactors, breathing hard against their respirators under the dim rays of a handheld flashlight in the cold, dark recesses of a critically damaged nuclear plant, knowing that at any moment another hydrogen explosion could occur.

These operators will be hailed as heroes, and deservedly so. But if they are like the rest of the tightly knit community of nuclear workers, they will simply say they were doing their job.


Helping keep some of it in perspective.

Offline PJMcG

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #514 on: Mar 18, 2011, 03:34 »
Touche,

That is an excellent point.  I don't know that I have seen it (sensationalized headlines) as bad as during this set of events.  I'd love to have a PI server and access to real time data to better understand exactly what is going on, absent that I/we (others on this board) have been searching and attempting to piece things together.  I have found many instances of new 'breathless' headlines above 'stale' information.

Thanks for pointing that out - it's actually been annoying me and I more or less fell into their trap.

PJ
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hatrai07

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #515 on: Mar 18, 2011, 04:54 »
 :o

May be sending direct observations soon.  Was just asked to prepare to mobilize for Japan.

Sun Dog

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #516 on: Mar 18, 2011, 05:46 »
:o

May be sending direct observations soon.  Was just asked to prepare to mobilize for Japan.


What is your area of expertise that is in high demand at this stage of control and recovery?

hatrai07

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #517 on: Mar 18, 2011, 05:56 »
Health Physics, ERO

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #518 on: Mar 18, 2011, 07:49 »
I just listened to the radio broadcast posted earlier regarding the Nuclear Scientist explaining g things in laymens terms for the general public.  It was excellent and she did a wonderful job of placing things in perspective.  We need to get her interviewed by as many media outlets as possible.

someone intelligent that can explain whats going on in a manner that doesnt sound like the nuclear apolocolypse is this week? Nah, that wont do for american media ... we need dr kaku telling the world whats POSSIBLE that could happen in the most extreme methods possible. yeah, that makes sense -.- :D

hatrai07, be safe and let us know whats going on if you get the chance to go over!

Offline buckeye99

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #519 on: Mar 18, 2011, 07:58 »
Obviously I was kidding but seriously I do not see what the hold up is for power. US Army has 75 5kV 750kW mobile generators capable of being airlifted in. Where are they? I understand the issues with roads torn up, radiation levels, overall chaos but a week without having power back is a joke. I don't care what was damaged, mobile substations are easy to find (I have a bunch of them).

To me the only logical (?) reason is the government has not allowed or asked for assistance, or waited too long.

I think one problem is that even when power arrives on site, the switchgear and other electrical components have been exposed to sea water. Even the water they've been pumping into the reactor buildings has been sea water. Pump motors and other equipment will need some maintenance to be operable. With the doses in the reactor buildings, that could be a tall order.

Offline hamsamich

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #520 on: Mar 18, 2011, 08:05 »
I think buckeye is on the money with that one.

Offline cajunbaby84

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #521 on: Mar 18, 2011, 08:21 »
I think he hit that one right also.

matthew.b

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #522 on: Mar 18, 2011, 08:45 »
Japan has both 50 and 60Hz.  These particular plants are 50Hz.  Japan uses 400V instead of 480V as their main AC industrial voltage.  These plants might be 480 given their GE heritage, but maybe not.

I hope someone has that all figured out before they ship the generator over there.

Offline OldHP

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #523 on: Mar 18, 2011, 09:04 »
This situation was out of control when the SFP became uncovered...you can blow sweet smelling smoke all day...but it is what it is.
If you don't understand what that means, you will learn...we are all about to learn...this accident exceeded the TMI accident on Tuesday...it is Friday...is the fuel covered?  Did I miss something?
So, what's the temperature of uncovered fuel?  Now, what happens to water when you put it on really hot stuff?  Sorry, but the truth stinks.
Let me know how that putting water on bare spent fuel works...
Quack, Quack

The situation exceeded TMI last weekend it still has a long way to go to come close to Chennobyl.  Read all the real info not just the s*** put out by the media that doesn't understand the difference between micro, milli, & Macro.
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Offline azkidd

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #524 on: Mar 18, 2011, 10:06 »
Barbie has information that even the IAEA doesn't have!  As far as I know everything is speculation.  Yes, the fuel pool levels may be dropping.  But, how many LPRM cannisters did they have stored in that pool?  Falling debris may have upset a storage can of LPRM detectors.  Where are the Fuel pool heat exchangers located in this model?  Damage to the Heat exchangers?   Filters from Tri Nukes, or other media?  Maybe a container of stellite bearings from recent Blade disposal projects?  Everything is speculation.

On a brighter note; I heard today that a manufacturer has been contacted about his EDEx shield vests for use in Japan.  That tells me that these missions of recovery are being controlled by an actual ERO plan.  "Retreated due to dose rates" means they have been briefed on the specific mission, given turn around dose rates for re-evaluation, and are proceeding with revised plans.  A lesson we all should learn, to partake in quarterly ERO drills with a little more interest....

 


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