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Is it just me, or is anyone else waiting for a contract to pop up in Japan?

Yes
59 (76.6%)
No
18 (23.4%)

Total Members Voted: 46

Author Topic: Japan  (Read 64428 times)

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fermispawn

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Japan
« on: Mar 14, 2011, 01:27 »
I know, I know...I'm a vulture! But somebodies got to be natures trash man!!

Xenon_Free

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Re: Japan
« Reply #1 on: Mar 14, 2011, 08:55 »
You disgust me.

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Japan
« Reply #2 on: Mar 14, 2011, 12:41 »
You disgust me.

Why? money makes the world go round. Someones gotta clean it up... Profiteering off catastrophy isnt ideal, but if the opportunity is there, why not?

Offline Marlin

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Re: Japan
« Reply #3 on: Mar 14, 2011, 12:56 »
   I did a little hazardous material retrieval for Katrina. Would not want to work or live in a disaster zone again. I lived in an RV on an Airport tarmac, most restaurants and stores were still shutdown so meals were served in tents by FEMA/EPA. I dealt with many of the victims as we had to get permission to enter their property if possible to retrieve tanks and material. Some of the retrieval was done on acres of debris that had been subdivisions reduced to a pile, seeing and walking on children's toys and peoples memories mixed in with house debris was not pleasant.
 
This would not be an outage with a nice motel room.

Offline Dave Warren

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Re: Japan
« Reply #4 on: Mar 14, 2011, 01:01 »
Actually, whether anyone is disgusted or appalled by your question is a moot point.

The bottom line is that someone has to clean it up.
TMI, Chernobyl, Love Canal, none of them glamorous but a lot of people got paid.

The timing of your question may not be so glamorous but there will be contracts popping up before we know it.
You know what I like? You were the only one with the onions to ask the question.

Monster.com, start the bidding....

Offline Martianman

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Re: Japan
« Reply #5 on: Mar 14, 2011, 02:46 »
Yes, all up in it to go. Got the go ahead from the wife and everything.  ;D
"Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you, yes, I will help you, I will uphold you with My righteous right hand." Isaiah 41:10

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Offline navynukedoc

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Re: Japan
« Reply #6 on: Mar 14, 2011, 04:27 »
I dunno about being vultures, but if Palo Verde blew, I would want every money hungry foriegn tech on the job to clean it up here so my kids don't grow up in it. Haven't talked to the wife yet about it, but I am sure she would support me to MOB as soon as the spot opened.


Just my .02
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colesj

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Re: Japan
« Reply #7 on: Mar 14, 2011, 06:58 »
Maybe our plants could pay our regular salary and send us there to help on a volunteer basis.  The industry as a whole will suffer from bad publicity and that would be a good start to help people and save a little face in the process.

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Japan
« Reply #8 on: Mar 14, 2011, 07:16 »
Maybe our plants could pay our regular salary and send us there to help on a volunteer basis.  The industry as a whole will suffer from bad publicity and that would be a good start to help people and save a little face in the process.

While I admire your heart, thats just not feasible. Highly skilled labor = $$$. Nature of the beast. That'd be like asking the plant workers to not accept overtime during an outage to "help the company and industry grow"...

Offline OldHP

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Re: Japan
« Reply #9 on: Mar 14, 2011, 07:44 »
While I admire your heart, thats just not feasible. Highly skilled labor = $$$. Nature of the beast. That'd be like asking the plant workers to not accept overtime during an outage to "help the company and industry grow"...

Actually it is not as unfeasible as you might think.  Within hours after the problems at TMI there were a lot of folks from other utilities on site at no cost to "Met Ed".  Including the then president of Duke Power, the Plant Manager and most of the senior staff of MNS, and two SS's from ONS (sister plant).  Granted it was mostly east coast utilities, but SCE kicked in two Sr Rad Engineers.  I know because I spent two months there.

The industry is (was) quick to respond when others have problems!
Humor is a wonderful way to prevent hardening of the attitudes! unknown
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Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Japan
« Reply #10 on: Mar 14, 2011, 07:54 »
Actually it is not as unfeasible as you might think.  Within hours after the problems at TMI there were a lot of folks from other utilities on site at no cost to "Met Ed".  Including the then president of Duke Power, the Plant Manager and most of the senior staff of MNS, and two SS's from ONS (sister plant).  Granted it was mostly east coast utilities, but SCE kicked in two Sr Rad Engineers.  I know because I spent two months there.

The industry is (was) quick to respond when others have problems!

Well, that was a different nation back then, and also wasnt an international event. Id say its a great idea, just doesnt seem like a realistic goal. Who knows, hopefully we can pull through this on top, thatd be the best for everyone.

"The best result comes from everyone doing whats best for them.... Incomplete gentlemen... the best result would come from everyone doing whats best for them AND everyone else". 

Offline Already Gone

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Re: Japan
« Reply #11 on: Mar 14, 2011, 08:49 »
I'm guessing that WANO and INPO will at some point establish a presence of industry leading "shared resources".
Aside from the goodwill that it might gain for the industry as a whole, recovery from this will be an invaluable learning opportunity.
Anyone who gets a chance to go, should consider it.  Big $$$ aside, it will look good on your resume.
"To be content with little is hard; to be content with much, impossible." - Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach

Offline OldHP

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Re: Japan
« Reply #12 on: Mar 14, 2011, 10:47 »
I'm guessing that WANO and INPO will at some point establish a presence of industry leading "shared resources".
Aside from the goodwill that it might gain for the industry as a whole, recovery from this will be an invaluable learning opportunity.
Anyone who gets a chance to go, should consider it.  Big $$$ aside, it will look good on your resume.

Very correct!   +K

That is why INPO and then WANO were brought into existance, the creation lead by that same DPC President!

Well, that was a different nation back then, and also wasnt an international event.

It may have been a "different nation, back then", but it was an international event!  Just search the press releaces in France, England, and Germany from 1979!  Learn your History! 

 [coffee]
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Offline navynukedoc

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Re: Japan
« Reply #13 on: Mar 15, 2011, 11:58 »
Just search the press releaces in France, England, and Germany from 1979!  Learn your History! 

Releases      ;)   :P
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Offline HydroDave63

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Re: Japan
« Reply #14 on: Mar 15, 2011, 12:27 »
It may have been a "different nation, back then", but it was an international event!  Just search the press releaces in France, England, and Germany from 1979!  Learn your History! 

Speaking of 1979 history  >:(

Germany Halts All Pre-1980 Nuclear Power Plants to Conduct Safety Reviews
By Tony Czuczka and Nicholas Comfort - Mar 15, 2011 5:59 AM MT


Germany's Chancellor Angela Merkel. Photographer: Michele Tantussi/Bloomberg
Japan’s Stricken Nuclear Power Plant Rocked By Blasts

Germany is halting its seven oldest nuclear reactors as part of a nationwide safety review to run through June after the explosions at reactors in Japan, Chancellor Angela Merkel said.

The federal government and premiers of the German states where nuclear-power stations are located agreed that facilities “that began operation before the end of 1980 are being stopped for the duration of the moratorium,” Merkel said after a meeting in Berlin today.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-15/german-pre-1980-nuclear-plants-to-be-halted-merkel-says.html

Offline navynukedoc

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Re: Japan
« Reply #15 on: Mar 15, 2011, 12:46 »
Speaking of 1979 history  >:(

Germany Halts All Pre-1980 Nuclear Power Plants to Conduct Safety Reviews
By Tony Czuczka and Nicholas Comfort - Mar 15, 2011 5:59 AM MT


Germany's Chancellor Angela Merkel. Photographer: Michele Tantussi/Bloomberg
Japan’s Stricken Nuclear Power Plant Rocked By Blasts

Germany is halting its seven oldest nuclear reactors as part of a nationwide safety review to run through June after the explosions at reactors in Japan, Chancellor Angela Merkel said.

The federal government and premiers of the German states where nuclear-power stations are located agreed that facilities “that began operation before the end of 1980 are being stopped for the duration of the moratorium,” Merkel said after a meeting in Berlin today.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-15/german-pre-1980-nuclear-plants-to-be-halted-merkel-says.html

2 Thumbs up. But is that realistic?
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Offline HydroDave63

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Re: Japan
« Reply #16 on: Mar 15, 2011, 12:48 »
2 Thumbs up. But is that realistic?

Is what realistic? They are going poles in the holes this week...

Offline Dave Warren

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Re: Japan
« Reply #17 on: Mar 15, 2011, 12:52 »
The Obama administration hasn’t backed off plans to promote nuclear power despite major damage at several reactors in Japan following a massive earthquake.

White House spokesman Jay Carney on Monday said President Obama continues to include nuclear power as part of a broader plan to develop more energy for the United States.

Offline navynukedoc

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Re: Japan
« Reply #18 on: Mar 15, 2011, 12:59 »
Is what realistic? They are going poles in the holes this week...

I mean tto shut down power to so many people. I guess they must have a conventional backup in place.

*brain fart ROFL
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Offline HydroDave63

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Re: Japan
« Reply #19 on: Mar 15, 2011, 01:02 »
Just be sure to set your background a little higher. This pic is in a city located about 50 miles west
« Last Edit: Mar 15, 2011, 01:04 by HydroDave63 »

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: Japan
« Reply #20 on: Mar 15, 2011, 02:04 »
I mean tto shut down power to so many people. I guess they must have a conventional backup in place.

*brain fart ROFL

with clarification, it is a reasonable question. Germany has a lot of variable wind generation, and plenty of trades get made throughout the European Union, so most likely their imported megawatts will come from Polish coal and French nuclear.

Offline navynukedoc

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Re: Japan
« Reply #21 on: Mar 15, 2011, 09:35 »
Just saw a report from the Today show saying they only have 50 techs and engineers left in the plant and they are having a real difficult time keeping coolant going into the reactor chamber. Not good for the people in the area.  :(
"Be courteous to all, but intimate with few, and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence" - George Washington

Offline Protectologist

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Re: Japan
« Reply #22 on: Mar 16, 2011, 02:52 »
We're starting to hear rumors about "the contract" for Japan. Any suggestions on where to look to confirm or deny the rumors?

Melrose

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Re: Japan
« Reply #23 on: Mar 16, 2011, 03:26 »
None of those apply to the question. AH

Offline azkidd

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Re: Japan
« Reply #24 on: Mar 16, 2011, 08:26 »
   

ERDC team:

 

USACE is querying its team looking for persons with issues surrounding nuclear reactors and radioactive materials.  We are canvassing USACE to generate a database of knowledgeable professionals in the areas of structural, environmental, contaminated debris management and nuclear power generation specialists--relative to nuclear power generation and radioactive materials/debris.

 

If you have the experience as described and are interested in a possible mission, please contact Gus Black (eroc@usace.army.mil) through your first-line supervisor.  Please understand, at this time, we are only trying to develop a list of interested/qualified personnel.  USACE does not have a mission at this time.

Offline navynukedoc

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Re: Japan
« Reply #25 on: Mar 16, 2011, 11:16 »
   

ERDC team:

 

USACE is querying its team looking for persons with issues surrounding nuclear reactors and radioactive materials.  We are canvassing USACE to generate a database of knowledgeable professionals in the areas of structural, environmental, contaminated debris management and nuclear power generation specialists--relative to nuclear power generation and radioactive materials/debris.

 

If you have the experience as described and are interested in a possible mission, please contact Gus Black (eroc@usace.army.mil) through your first-line supervisor.  Please understand, at this time, we are only trying to develop a list of interested/qualified personnel.  USACE does not have a mission at this time.

ERDC?


And can anyone send info? I would assume yes bc you posted the link, but want confirmation.
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Offline radwaste44

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Offline HydroDave63

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Re: Japan
« Reply #27 on: Mar 17, 2011, 10:43 »
   

ERDC team:

 

USACE is querying its team looking for persons with issues surrounding nuclear reactors and radioactive materials.  We are canvassing USACE to generate a database of knowledgeable professionals in the areas of structural, environmental, contaminated debris management and nuclear power generation specialists--relative to nuclear power generation and radioactive materials/debris.

 

If you have the experience as described and are interested in a possible mission, please contact Gus Black (eroc@usace.army.mil) through your first-line supervisor.  Please understand, at this time, we are only trying to develop a list of interested/qualified personnel.  USACE does not have a mission at this time.

that address didn't work...

Offline Already Gone

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Re: Japan
« Reply #28 on: Mar 17, 2011, 05:45 »
Well if you know more share it, because until they start posting jobs it's rumors.
I think that is the point he's making.

There may be some vultures out there who are looking to get "the contract", and maybe talking like they have it, have an edge in getting it, or a lot of other bull$#!t to do some resume mining.

Just go look at "other website" any day of the week.  Every time a DOE site puts out an RFP, ten different companies post job ads as if they already had the contract.  In reality, they have no contract, and no means of getting it, unless you respond and give them a resume to put in their proposal book.

"The contract" will be literally hundreds of contracts, sub-contracts, sub-sub-contracts over the course of several years.

Don't go learning to eat with chopsticks and buying Rosetta Stone Japanese until somebody offers you a job, a start date and a pay rate.
"To be content with little is hard; to be content with much, impossible." - Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach

fermispawn

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Re: Japan
« Reply #29 on: Mar 18, 2011, 09:18 »
Thanx to all that responded and that will respond in the future. This is EXACTLY what I hoped this thread would generate, a bunch of Techs puttin' our heads together (even if they bump sometimes doing it) to keep each other informed!!!

Offline navynukedoc

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Re: Japan
« Reply #30 on: Mar 18, 2011, 11:55 »
"Be courteous to all, but intimate with few, and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence" - George Washington

Offline navynukedoc

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Re: Japan
« Reply #31 on: Mar 18, 2011, 05:29 »
LOL,  I am feeling a McDonalds french fry trip coming on!

http://www.latimes.com/news/la-fg-china-iodine-salt-20110318,0,4281601.story?track=rss

How much iodized salt would a human need to consume to block the thyroid?? Not enough before they sent themselves into a dehydrated stroke!

 [whistle]"Will you look at all these rumors surroundin' me every day
I just need some time, some time to get away from
From all these rumors, I can't take it no more"
 [whistle]
« Last Edit: Mar 18, 2011, 05:30 by navynukedoc »
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Offline UncaBuffalo

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Re: Japan
« Reply #32 on: Mar 18, 2011, 09:12 »
Wonder if there are any short-term volunteer positions...or would I even be useful, since I don´t speak any Japanese?  

I would be glad to pay my way over for a couple of months if I thought I could do any good.  Suppose housing is scarce right now, so maybe if someone wanted to provide room & board a few of us might be interested...?  

Just a thought...if anyone has any better ideas on how I could help...  :(

« Last Edit: Mar 18, 2011, 09:13 by UncaBuffalo »
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Re: Japan
« Reply #33 on: Mar 19, 2011, 11:51 »
LOL,  I am feeling a McDonalds french fry trip coming on!

http://www.latimes.com/news/la-fg-china-iodine-salt-20110318,0,4281601.story?track=rss

How much iodized salt would a human need to consume to block the thyroid?? Not enough before they sent themselves into a dehydrated stroke!

 [whistle]"Will you look at all these rumors surroundin' me every day
I just need some time, some time to get away from
From all these rumors, I can't take it no more"
 [whistle]

A vitamin supplement containing Iodine would probably be a better choice.  The thyroid can't use more than about 1100 micrograms per day of Iodine.  That would be the equivalent of about four teaspoons of iodized salt.  That much salt would provide around 8000 milligrams of Sodium - around four times the maximum recommended intake of Sodium.  A 130 microgram dose is recommended as a Thyroid block.  That's about half a teaspoon of salt - bringing with it 1000mg of Sodium.
The daily recommended intake of Iodine for dietary purposes (not radiological) is 150 micrograms per day.  (about twice that for pregnant and breast-feeding women).  Except for vegans and vegetarians, most people get around 240 micrograms per day from their diet.
Soybeans, cruciferous vegetables (broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, etc) can cause Iodine depletion.  Seaweed contains an abundance of Iodine and is a common ingredient in Japanese foods, such as sushi and some soups.  The typical Japanese diet contains 12,000 micrograms per day of Iodine.  Taking additional Iodine for a person eating a similar diet, would probably cause a goiter.
Hoarding salt, and eating too much of it, isn't really the best option.  But, since the Chinese don't eat a Japanese diet, don't have a clue what's happening in the world, and already eat too much Sodium, I figure that they'll keep lining up to buy it until the "local salt bureau" (is there one of those in my town?) tells them that they have to stop.
« Last Edit: Mar 19, 2011, 11:57 by Already Gone »
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RADBASTARD

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Re: Japan
« Reply #34 on: Mar 20, 2011, 05:41 »
Let the rate bidding for techs to begin? and bid high!

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Re: Japan
« Reply #35 on: Mar 20, 2011, 06:32 »
Um...No.  This is not an opportunity.  This is a disaster.  If there is going to be any market pressure on the going rate for techs, it will just draw in the drooling mercenaries, probably flooding the pool with everyone who can spell mR or dpm as new "techs", both in Japan and in the US (somebody has to work the outages here).  Then, there won't be any room for all of them when they come home to work in the US, and the pay rate will tank again. 
The best thing that can happen to the current techs is for the price of your services to remain stable with reasonable growth rates.  A short-term spike will not be good.
Even if the cleanup takes decades, our involvement - if any - will only last as long as it takes to train Japanese technicians to replace us.  I figure a few months.

Really, the income opportunity for most HP techs will be the chance to work all summer.  Some will build a nest, but only a very few.

Now, let's consider how this will affect the US nuclear industry.  Outages may be longer to accommodate all the system upgrades that are going to come out of this.  There may even be some unexpected de-commissioning projects as a result of the expense of upgrading. That's where you're going to see growth in your earning capacity.

Too bad that it took something like this to make it happen.

I don't think it is wise to hope that our children get into the business, since there probably won't be anywhere for them to work in a few years.
"To be content with little is hard; to be content with much, impossible." - Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach

Offline Marlin

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Re: Japan
« Reply #36 on: Mar 20, 2011, 08:18 »
Um...No.  This is not an opportunity.  This is a disaster.

I whole heartedly agree. I went to Jr High and my first year of High School in Japan and have nothing but fond memories of Japan and the Japanese people. They need help not mercenaries.

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Re: Japan
« Reply #37 on: Mar 20, 2011, 09:40 »
Let the rate bidding for techs to begin? and bid high!

Um...No.  This is not an opportunity. 

JMO - There will not be a whole lot of opportunities for techs as fallout (pardon the pun) from this event.  There will be a few professional opportunities, particularly for the folks (mostly US) who built the units.   :)
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Re: Japan
« Reply #38 on: Mar 21, 2011, 02:25 »
JMO - There will not be a whole lot of opportunities for techs as fallout (pardon the pun) from this event.  There will be a few professional opportunities, particularly for the folks (mostly US) who built the units.   :)



[prize] I agree. But it still would be nice to go and help out, regardless.
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Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Japan
« Reply #39 on: Mar 21, 2011, 05:22 »
Um...No.  This is not an opportunity.  This is a disaster.  If there is going to be any market pressure on the going rate for techs, it will just draw in the drooling mercenaries, probably flooding the pool with everyone who can spell mR or dpm as new "techs", both in Japan and in the US (somebody has to work the outages here).  Then, there won't be any room for all of them when they come home to work in the US, and the pay rate will tank again. 
The best thing that can happen to the current techs is for the price of your services to remain stable with reasonable growth rates.  A short-term spike will not be good.
Even if the cleanup takes decades, our involvement - if any - will only last as long as it takes to train Japanese technicians to replace us.  I figure a few months.

Really, the income opportunity for most HP techs will be the chance to work all summer.  Some will build a nest, but only a very few.

Now, let's consider how this will affect the US nuclear industry.  Outages may be longer to accommodate all the system upgrades that are going to come out of this.  There may even be some unexpected de-commissioning projects as a result of the expense of upgrading. That's where you're going to see growth in your earning capacity.

Too bad that it took something like this to make it happen.

I don't think it is wise to hope that our children get into the business, since there probably won't be anywhere for them to work in a few years.

Holy Morbid, batman.

You being in the industry you should realize

1) our procedures and protocolls are written in blood of our own and those around us. It took an 8.9 to make us ready for an 8.9, thats just how it goes. Remember when positive temperature coefficients were a good idea?

2) Id be willing to bet Japanese nuke plants have their own qualified technicians to do this work....  Its not like they built these plants 2 years ago and dont know what to do.

3) Who cares if someone capitilizes off of this? If this was such an issue, I have a couple oil companies you need to get into contact with!

4) Im willing to stake my life on the fact that the nuclear industry isnt going to go away any time in the near future .... Obama strictly stated he is still going to push the new plant designs through (spare me your dislike for obama for the polysci forum). I can see shutdowns and upgrades coming, yes. Stock may take a hit. Income may take a slight hit. If TMI didnt stop american nuclear power, an incident in japan after a tsunami and record earth quake wont either.



Offline SloGlo

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Re: Japan
« Reply #40 on: Mar 21, 2011, 06:05 »
Let the rate bidding for techs to begin? and bid high!

two bid high is too knot win a job.  remember, the people of that country work cheap enough to put our workers on unemployment.  bid responsibly and bid well and yew mite bee able two go they're, make money, and sea the country. ;)
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Offline navynukedoc

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Re: Japan
« Reply #41 on: Mar 21, 2011, 06:40 »
Quote

4) Im willing to stake my life on the fact that the nuclear industry isnt going to go away any time in the near future .... Obama strictly stated he is still going to push the new plant designs through (spare me your dislike for obama for the polysci forum). I can see shutdowns and upgrades coming, yes. Stock may take a hit. Income may take a slight hit. If TMI didnt stop american nuclear power, an incident in japan after a tsunami and record earth quake wont either.


Tru dat brotherman!

Mother nature has a way of making us rethink and overcome faults not thought of in the first place. And if they were thought of, now reinforced actions will happen to make sure we design better systems for future (and current for that matter) plants. Could you imagine what would have happened if that same quake and tsunami hit say.........central east coast U.S.??? How many plants would have been affected by that?? If I can recall properly, ours are majority on shorelines or lower lying river valleys.
« Last Edit: Mar 21, 2011, 06:44 by navynukedoc »
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Offline Already Gone

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Re: Japan
« Reply #42 on: Mar 21, 2011, 07:26 »
Where to begin?

1.) Positive Temperature Coefficients are still a good idea.  when you get out of the minor leagues, you'll learn that commercial PWR's have them at the beginning of each fuel cycle.  It is the result of having high Boron concentrations in the coolant at BOL.  The lower density of the coolant means lower density of the Boron, which has a greater effect on reactivity than the lower density of the water.  It doesn't last long.  Goes negative at about the time that Xenon hits equilibrium.

2.) Political reality is one thing. But are YOU going to issue an insurance policy for a new reactor?  Are you going to invest BILLIONS into a plant that may never get a commercial license?  Are you going to educate the approximately 349,998,450 people in this country who know nothing about nuclear power except what they see on CNN or The Amazing Colossal Man?  They vote.  The bankers and underwiters are among them too.

3.) March 1979 - the highest offsite dose rate during the TMI accident (which was MUCH tamer than it could have been if the plant had more than 90 EFPD on it at the time) was from the coal pile at Brunner Island down river.  Did that make a difference?  Nope.  Nobody started new construction on a nuclear plant in over 30 years.  You think THIS is not going to have that same effect?  Seriously.

4.) I don't care who makes a profit from his work.  As a capitalist, I believe that everyone should profit from his work - in direct proportion to the need for that work.  I'm just being realistic.  A short term need of a skill that is easily taught will not result in new millionaires from among the HP Tech. ranks.  It only takes a few weeks to fully train someone to survey, take smears and air samples, and to frisk rubble.  I'm guessing that there a lot of Japanese people who can pick up and run with that.

5.) No, the nuclear industry won't go away quickly.  By its nature it will take a long time to put it all away.  But, don't delude yourself into thinking that it is going to grow any time soon, and the newest nuclear plant in this country is over 25 years old - some are well into their license exensions.  They ain't gonna last forever.  TMI didn't stop nuclear power.  It just stopped it from growing a millimeter in a generation.  Chernobyl was argued away a a fluke that can't happen here.  With so many of the same design power plants as Fukushima Daiichi operating right in our hometowns, that argument will not work this time.

6.) It was NOT an earthquake that caused the current situation.  It was NOT a tsunami either.  It was NOT a combination of the two.  It was a loss of power to a few pumps.  Suddenly, it is no longer a freak of nature any more.  Anything designed by humans, built by humans, and operated by humans, can and will fail.
We talked for years about redundancy (a grammatical error that doesn't bear discussing here), defense-in-depth, probabilistic risk assessment, etc., but when your "backups to backups to backups" are all located on the same piece of real estate, and you didn't postulate as possible that which actually happened, well ... fuhgedaboudit brudda.  If one "statistically impossible" disaster can happen once, then another can happen somewhere else.

Yes, the world SHOULD build new reactors and operate them.  Yes, nuclear power is safe - even when the plants fail epically like these did - and environmentally responsible.  As long as we RE-THINK design, defenses, and contingencies, new reactors won't have to bear the burden of the old assumptions, which we are turning out to be woefully invalid, new reactors SHOULD be built.  Now, go out and convince that 349,998,450 people of that and you're home free.
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Re: Japan
« Reply #43 on: Mar 22, 2011, 12:03 »
To: Already Gone

Nicely said.

Michael

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Re: Japan
« Reply #44 on: Mar 22, 2011, 12:41 »
1)  Im not sure how you can say an inherently unstable system is a good idea -.-. Ill do some research on your PWR's after initial refueling. I would happen to be in the "big leagues" now btw, but on a BWR.

2) As long as the big wigs still want it done, I have confidence it will get done. Cost is no object. when we are paying 8 dollars a gallon for gas, Im pretty willing to bet electrical power generation will come to a new level, nuclear plants included. I agree, most people are idiots/ignorant, no arguing that.

3) Well we already have plant designs and buildings in motion. Is the NRC going to just stop? Obama seems to think otherwise.

4) Amen, I agree with you 100%. I think you may be confusing profiteering of disaster with my points.

5) time will tell

6) dude... a catastrophic event exceeding design basis caused multiple system failures. Its not like some moron went out and just turned the pumps off. We know good and well "what happened" (an idea at least), but just as chernobyl gave way to containments, this incident will give way to catastrophe proof plants. We evolve off prior incidents, nature of the beast. Im fully confident we will come out stronger and safer because of this...  at least with the new plant designs.

 


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Re: Japan
« Reply #45 on: Mar 22, 2011, 07:36 »
1)  Im not sure how you can say an inherently unstable system is a good idea -.-. Ill do some research on your PWR's after initial refueling. I would happen to be in the "big leagues" now btw, but on a BWR.
 



AlreadyGone is 100% correct.

You both are arguing two different things, I suspect. I think CM is referring to a design like Chernobyl, in which I agree with him. However, AG is correct about PWRs, and I agree with him.

Carry on.

Justin
« Last Edit: Mar 22, 2011, 07:39 by JustinHEMI »

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Re: Japan
« Reply #46 on: Mar 22, 2011, 07:38 »
Oh, if people really want to sweat something, worry about the 11 or so RBMK tractors still in service in and around Russia.

Justin
« Last Edit: Mar 22, 2011, 07:40 by JustinHEMI »

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Re: Japan
« Reply #47 on: Mar 22, 2011, 08:11 »

6.) It was NOT an earthquake that caused the current situation.  It was NOT a tsunami either.  It was NOT a combination of the two.  It was a loss of power to a few pumps.  Suddenly, it is no longer a freak of nature any more.  Anything designed by humans, built by humans, and operated by humans, can and will fail.

Are you intentionally myopic? If the plant had been designed with 9.0 as the design basis earthquake, then the supports for the pumps / motors / cables / switches / diesel generators would have been rigorous enough to withstand the earthquake. If siting criteria required preparations for a 30' wall of water moving 500 mph, same thing. Of course, you may not be able to get around inside the reactor building due to all of the extra supports (think Watts Bar's U-1 containment).

The fact is that an unanticipated natural disaster has struck perhaps the most prepared nation in the world and caused thousands of deaths and billions of $ of damage. All things considered, I think the response of the systems has been excellent. If forced cooling is established this week, there will probably not be any deaths due to radiation. Much better than Chernobyl.
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Re: Japan
« Reply #48 on: Mar 22, 2011, 08:26 »
It was an act of God. You can't plan against Him, and it would be ludicrous to try.

Justin

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Re: Japan
« Reply #49 on: Mar 22, 2011, 08:37 »
There has been a little critisism of management (source WSJ) who appeared to delay use of salt water for cooling to conserve company assets. Even with a 1000 year disaster this could have been a smaller disaster. The human factor is difficult to factor into the safety basis.

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Re: Japan
« Reply #50 on: Mar 22, 2011, 08:54 »
Already Gone we seem to have hijacked your thread. I see that there is about a 3 to 1 ration of people who are looking forward to a contract over there. I hope whoever goes takes the time to visit the undamaged parts of the country and takes in a little of their culture. I still remember my reactions as a young boy to the alien feel of everything I encountered from the homes of my Japanese freinds to the Temples and Tokyo itself. My father had no problem with a 13 year old boy taking the bus into Tokyo to go to an ice skating rink or other public venue. He would not have done that here in the US. Language may not be a problem, although I learned a passable amount of Japanese (which is gone along with my two years Spanish in High School) it seemed like most of the younger people spoke english the world language of busisness.

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Re: Japan
« Reply #51 on: Mar 22, 2011, 09:54 »
With a quick signature of the presidential pen all the rubble can be buried and left to decay.The remediation of rad contamination and reconstruction of their land has already been done in two cities. Go take some samples there and tell me the results.I really don't think they need HP's smearing and clearing.
« Last Edit: Mar 22, 2011, 11:34 by stownsend »

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Re: Japan
« Reply #52 on: Mar 22, 2011, 10:08 »
Look for someone greasing the skids to bury Japanese radwaste in American backyards. But, I think the Russians have more real estate, they're closer, they're cheaper, and they already have lots of square miles that will never (rhetorically) be usable again.

Just my $0.05 stretching out to a full $0.10,..... [coffee]

Easiest solution for least money...2 cubic miles of concrete. Self-shielding.


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Re: Japan
« Reply #53 on: Mar 22, 2011, 11:42 »
Thinking out of the box here, but I think a good place to start would be to design a lightweight temporary decay heat removal system stored close enough to a reactor and easy enough to install within 36 hours or so of a RX accident.  Have it stored ready-to-install and tested on a frequent basis.  Have it stored in carrying cases small enough each one could be carried by the heaviest lifting helicopter available.  Have it stored with a power supply designed to operate it and have it simple enough to work easily (like firehose connections for its heat exchanger designed to use seawater). But have it far enough away so it should not be affected by the disaster.  You could have X number of them Y miles away at some ratio depending on how many reactors were nearby, how close they were to each other, how many units per site, blah blah blah.  I don't know if this is practical/cost effective or not but certainly worth looking into.  For that matter I'm sure this had to have been considered by someone as an option at sometime in the last 50 years.

This thread could be split into a couple of topics....not really on topic here.

Offline Already Gone

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Re: Japan
« Reply #54 on: Mar 22, 2011, 12:11 »
1)  Im not sure how you can say an inherently unstable system is a good idea -.-. Ill do some research on your PWR's after initial refueling. I would happen to be in the "big leagues" now btw, but on a BWR.

2) As long as the big wigs still want it done, I have confidence it will get done. Cost is no object. when we are paying 8 dollars a gallon for gas, Im pretty willing to bet electrical power generation will come to a new level, nuclear plants included. I agree, most people are idiots/ignorant, no arguing that.

3) Well we already have plant designs and buildings in motion. Is the NRC going to just stop? Obama seems to think otherwise.

4) Amen, I agree with you 100%. I think you may be confusing profiteering of disaster with my points.

5) time will tell

6) dude... a catastrophic event exceeding design basis caused multiple system failures. Its not like some moron went out and just turned the pumps off. We know good and well "what happened" (an idea at least), but just as chernobyl gave way to containments, this incident will give way to catastrophe proof plants. We evolve off prior incidents, nature of the beast. Im fully confident we will come out stronger and safer because of this...  at least with the new plant designs.

1.) It is a good idea because it works to control reactivity.  It isn't necessarily unstable just because it isn't idiot-proof.
2.)The Big Wigs will, as you say, do what they want.  I just don't think they are going to want it badly enough to risk the $$$.
3.)Those buildings are no more than excavations at this point.  The NRC isn't going to stop them - just make it so hard to proceed that they will give up.  The money is what is going to kill this - not the NRC or Obama.
4.)No, I just threw that in to counter someone else's point - i think.
5.)Yeah, lots and lots of time.
6.)Can't blame nature.  "Exceeded design basis" translates into the fact that the design basis turned out to be not good enough.  Now, the burden of proof of every design is going to be higher - maybe impossibly high.
Yep, we will learn from this, just as we have learned from the past.  But we also learned from the Hindenburg incident - what we learned wasn't how to make safer Hydrogen dirigibles; we learned to stop flying them.
What WE learn from this will help us make better reactors.  What the public will learn from this is that they shouldn't have trusted us when we said it wouldn't happen.  I don't think that "I've learned my lesson, mea culpa" is going to be a persuasive enough confession to gain us back that trust.
« Last Edit: Mar 22, 2011, 01:22 by Already Gone »
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Nuclear Renaissance

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Re: Japan
« Reply #55 on: Mar 22, 2011, 12:41 »
In this discussion, do not forget that US BWR/4s have implemented several modifications that could have stemmed the deteriorating conditions at Fukushima:

1. Severe Accident Mitigation diesel generators, that are in plant and tie directly into the station battery chargers, added because station blackout is so readily known as a huge core damage frequency component

2. Hardened vent, a primary containment vent path powered by backup nitrogen, that is capable of venting hydrogen to the outside while bypassing the secondary containment.

3. Extreme Damage Mitigation portable diesel pumps, with the capability of primary containment flooding or fuel pool spray, added because after 9/11, you just can never be sure what "design basis" is.

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Re: Japan
« Reply #56 on: Mar 22, 2011, 01:18 »
... because after 9/11, you just can never be sure what "design basis" is.

Exactly!
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Offline Already Gone

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Re: Japan
« Reply #57 on: Mar 22, 2011, 05:41 »
Are you intentionally myopic? If the plant had been designed with 9.0 as the design basis earthquake, then the supports for the pumps / motors / cables / switches / diesel generators would have been rigorous enough to withstand the earthquake. If siting criteria required preparations for a 30' wall of water moving 500 mph, same thing. Of course, you may not be able to get around inside the reactor building due to all of the extra supports (think Watts Bar's U-1 containment).

The fact is that an unanticipated natural disaster has struck perhaps the most prepared nation in the world and caused thousands of deaths and billions of $ of damage. All things considered, I think the response of the systems has been excellent. If forced cooling is established this week, there will probably not be any deaths due to radiation. Much better than Chernobyl.

Actually, just the opposite.
To get to the root of the problem, you have to start with the simplest explanation and branch out from there.
Ask the 5 Why's.

Problem:  Spent fuel pool is spewing radioactive material.
1-Why?
Because it is overheated.
2-Why?
Because the cooling pumps failed.
3-Why?
Because the tsunami knocked out all the power sources.
4-Why?
Because the design didn't anticipate a tsunami that big.
5-Why?
??????????????????

Follow that down every possible path.  You'll still get the first two answers.  But # 3 could be: because the terrorists destroyed the power sources - or - because the blackout and load rejection destroyed the switchgear - or - because the blah blah blah failed due to the blah blah blah.
For whatever #3 scenario that God or al Qaeda can think up for you, there is a word to replace tsunami in #4.
There is no acceptable answer to #5.  Didn't anticipate something that actually happened?  Why?  Can't be because it was impossible.  If it happened, it wasn't impossible.  Where does this logically end?  Build them to withstand a 9.0 earthquake, and eventually there will be a 9.1 earthquake.  Build them to survive a 30 foot tidal wave, and there will eventually be a 31 foot tidal wave.

Logic doesn't enter into it anyway.  We're talking about F-E-A-R.  Fear knows no logic other than the instinct to fear that which we do not understand.  For all the knowledge and understanding we foster, the anti-nukes will invent a new thing to fear.
It works for them.  I know not why.  Few if any people will die directly as a result of the nuclear plant melting down.  Many people die from many other things that nuclear power would help to prevent.  Still, people in California are on eBay looking for respirators and full-encapsulation HAZMAT suits.
Yeah, we'll keep explaining that to the world - the world full of people who inexplicably buy vowels on Wheel of Fortune - they won't be swayed.

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« Last Edit: Mar 22, 2011, 05:44 by Already Gone »
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Offline RDTroja

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Re: Japan
« Reply #58 on: Mar 22, 2011, 08:05 »
It all boils down (sorry for that) to the last paragraph (well, minus the song lyrics) -- I have yet to hear someone say "It took a disaster that killed 10,000 people, caused Billions of dollars worth of damage, left many thousands homeless and did who knows what long term damage to the Japanese economy to cause a nuclear problem that may result in a few incidental cancers over the next 30 years or so. Aside from the workers in the plant, nobody is in significant danger (at least statistically.)

No, I don't want to be one of the few that gets cancer from the excess exposure, but people take greater risks all the time. Nuclear power plants have been THE reason that Japan has been able to be a world economic power. They have nothing else. They don't have their own oil or coal, and not enough land for solar or wind, even if it was viable. There is no way they could have supported their industrial infrastructure without nuclear. Yes, they would have survived, but they would not be the world's fourth largest (or thereabouts) economy or enjoyed the standard of living that they have had for the past 60 years.

There is risk in everything. There is no reward without it. Japan has gotten far more form nuclear power than they have lost because of this. Compared to what the earthquake and resulting tsunami have done to them the nuclear issue should be a minor concern assuming they can get it all under control, and they will.

That is the message we need to get out, but we will be drowned (sorry for that, too) out by the media who profit from fear.
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Re: Japan
« Reply #59 on: Mar 22, 2011, 10:51 »
There is risk in everything. There is no reward without it. Japan has gotten far more form nuclear power than they have lost because of this. Compared to what the earthquake and resulting tsunami have done to them the nuclear issue should be a minor concern assuming they can get it all under control, and they will.
That is the message we need to get out, but we will be drowned (sorry for that, too) out by the media who profit from fear.

Quite true!  There is risk in driving to work or home from work - however; (and I've said it before in other threads), I would much rather live next door to a NPP than a coal burner.  In my previous life I had to demonstrate to the press that the Nukes were much safer (healthier) than the coal fired plants.  Think about it!
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Offline navynukedoc

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Re: Japan
« Reply #60 on: Mar 22, 2011, 11:54 »
Quote
In my previous life I had to demonstrate to the press that the Nukes were much safer (healthier) than the coal fired plants.  Think about it!

Coal dust in dry air, whew that is some nasty shit to put out of some old lady throws the butt of her Benson & Hedges out the car window!!!   [Flamer]
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Re: Japan
« Reply #61 on: Mar 23, 2011, 09:42 »

Logic doesn't enter into it anyway.  We're talking about F-E-A-R.  Fear knows no logic other than the instinct to fear that which we do not understand.  For all the knowledge and understanding we foster, the anti-nukes will invent a new thing to fear.
It works for them.  I know not why.  

Absolutely CORRECT!  DING!! 

And the reason that it works for them is that they (anti-nukes) don't try to argue on a technical basis, they don't attempt a rational discussion about comparative risks, and they don't suggest alternatives.  What they do is use fear to delay and delay means elevated cost and capital risk and eventually commercial nuclear power is not economically feasible.  What CEO will invest that kind of money with the the uncertainty and time line for receiving returns?  Who will insure it? And presto - no nukes - WINNING!

It is just much harder for the average person to get past the hysteria (Sheppard Smith has been abysmal in his fear mongering; I never liked the guy before, but his performance in Japan was pathetically shameless) and truly make a rational and informed decision after carefully weighing nuclear pros and cons.  Besides ... Jersey Shore and Dancing with the Stars is on tonight!  DUDE!  Come on Maaaaaaaan!
"By its paw shall you know the lion."

Offline RP Instructor

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Re: Japan
« Reply #62 on: Mar 24, 2011, 04:49 »
   I did a little hazardous material retrieval for Katrina. Would not want to work or live in a disaster zone again. I lived in an RV on an Airport tarmac, most restaurants and stores were still shutdown so meals were served in tents by FEMA/EPA. I dealt with many of the victims as we had to get permission to enter their property if possible to retrieve tanks and material. Some of the retrieval was done on acres of debris that had been subdivisions reduced to a pile, seeing and walking on children's toys and peoples memories mixed in with house debris was not pleasant.
 
This would not be an outage with a nice motel room.

Kudos, Marlin. Well said. As you stated in a later thread, the Japanese are looking to us to help them, not profit from their disasterous misfortune.
In any case, whether your reasons for going are purely altruistic or strictly to profit,   brush up on your System Internationale (Metric System) units, and go ahead and buy a copy of the Rosetta Stone software, and start learning Japanese.

Offline navynukedoc

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Re: Japan
« Reply #63 on: Mar 24, 2011, 05:26 »
Well it looks as if DeNuke already posted the job. And it states contract is already in place.

Go get'em tigers!!!

http://www.nukeworker.com/job/job/japan---immediate-need-sr.-rct-and-sr.hp/14254/
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Re: Japan
« Reply #64 on: Mar 24, 2011, 10:06 »
In Honor of My Fellow Nukeworkers going to Japan!!

Are you ready kids, Aye Aye Captain,  I can't hear you!!!  AYE AYE CAPTAIN!! Who works in a nuclear reactor by the sea.
Dose Sponge No Pants,
Tyvex of Yellow and contaminated is he.
Dose Sponge No Pants,
If Nuclear nonsense is something you wish.
Dose Sponge No Pants,
Then flop out you Teletector, and take your Boo Coo cash and put it  in a dish!!
Dose Sponge No Pants,
Ready, 
Dose Sponge No Pants,
Dose Sponge No Pants,
Dose Sponge No Pants,








Offline HydroDave63

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Re: Japan
« Reply #65 on: Mar 31, 2011, 11:28 »
Easiest solution for least money...2 cubic miles of concrete. Self-shielding.

You read it here first!  ;)
 

 SRS concrete pump heading to Japan nuclear site By Rob Pavey

The world’s largest concrete pump, deployed at the construction site of the U.S. government’s $4.86 billion mixed oxide fuel plant at Savannah River Site, is being moved to Japan in a series of emergency measures to help stabilize the Fukushima reactors.

http://chronicle.augusta.com/latest-news/2011-03-31/srs-concrete-pump-heading-japan-nuclear-site


Offline navynukedoc

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Re: Japan
« Reply #66 on: Apr 01, 2011, 11:11 »

The world’s largest concrete pump, deployed at the construction site of the U.S. government’s $4.86 billion mixed oxide fuel plant at Savannah River Site, is being moved to Japan in a series of emergency measures to help stabilize the Fukushima reactors.

And so it be told, it seems to be worse off than reported.

I just found out from my contacts in the rad health side of the Navy, that all non essential rad con people are being staged in Hawaii to go in as soon as they are given the green light. (Guess the Reagan got dirtier than we thought)
"Be courteous to all, but intimate with few, and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence" - George Washington

Offline thenukeman

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Re: Japan
« Reply #67 on: Apr 01, 2011, 01:16 »


Dose sponge no pants???

Just got done cleaning up the nuke plant in Japan??

Did they just take your pants??

Is your Dosimeter reading 4 R?  
« Last Edit: Apr 01, 2011, 01:23 by thenukeman »

Offline darkmatter

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Re: Japan
« Reply #68 on: Apr 03, 2011, 11:45 »
Yes, all up in it to go. Got the go ahead from the wife and everything.  ;D

Yeah, me too. However the Missus seemed very concerned about my life insurance premiums being paid up. No other objections by the Missus as she cranked up the laptop to scan E-bay listings...............
"Never underestimate the power of a Dark Klown"

Darkmatters website is no more, nada, gonzo, 
http://darkmatter.nukeworker.net.istemp.com  this will get you there, but I can't update it anymore. Maybe nukeworker will host personal sites eventully

Offline Marlin

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Re: Japan
« Reply #69 on: Apr 03, 2011, 01:06 »
Yes, all up in it to go. Got the go ahead from the wife and everything.  ;D

 [Flamer] She would have to find your "Man Card" and give it back. I am sure you have not seen it for a while.  [Flamer]


Sorry I couldn't help myself. [devious] PM on the way!!!

Offline air23dan

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Re: Japan
« Reply #70 on: Apr 03, 2011, 03:55 »
Who's got the contract for Japan?

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Japan
« Reply #71 on: Apr 03, 2011, 06:56 »
And so it be told, it seems to be worse off than reported.

I just found out from my contacts in the rad health side of the Navy, that all non essential rad con people are being staged in Hawaii to go in as soon as they are given the green light. (Guess the Reagan got dirtier than we thought)


Id like to see some paper work on this.... I doubt highly they are going to send their precious ELT's and RHO's to help, they have their own issues to deal with imo. As for the ship, a simple counter measure wash down and deck scrubbing would be sufficient to rid of any contamination on the ship, and their staff is plenty for that O.o


Offline Marlin

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Re: Japan
« Reply #72 on: Apr 03, 2011, 07:35 »
Who's got the contract for Japan?

I am sure that it is multiple contractors, but DeNuke has posted on NukeWorker for Techs.

thenuttyneutron

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Re: Japan
« Reply #73 on: May 26, 2011, 07:32 »
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/super-typhoon-songda-projected-pass-over-fukushima-nuclear-power-plant

I can't support the notion that I-131 will be their problem as stated in the article.  99% of the I-131 should be gone by now.  The other longer lived nasty stuff could be an issue.

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Japan
« Reply #74 on: May 27, 2011, 05:19 »
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/super-typhoon-songda-projected-pass-over-fukushima-nuclear-power-plant

I can't support the notion that I-131 will be their problem as stated in the article.  99% of the I-131 should be gone by now.  The other longer lived nasty stuff could be an issue.
the longer lived stuff is particulates, no?

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: Japan
« Reply #75 on: May 27, 2011, 08:51 »
the longer lived stuff is particulates, no?

By now, even the gaseous radionuclides have found a partner and are in the large body of liquid of the Pacific, or the solid critters residing therein.

. As for the ship, a simple counter measure wash down and deck scrubbing would be sufficient to rid of any contamination on the ship, and their staff is plenty for that O.o

And any that came in the gaseous route, they have thousands of those portable air filtering units in the blue camo outfits.

As radcon goes....stick to ops  :P
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 08:55 by HydroDave63 »

Offline Marlin

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Re: Japan
« Reply #76 on: May 27, 2011, 08:56 »
the longer lived stuff is particulates, no?

When will ever get these nubs to use "search buttons"    [devious]

Currently, spent nuclear fuel remains in temporary storage at nuclear power plants around the country. If the nuclear waste repository at Yucca Mountain opens, it will provide permanent disposal for spent nuclear fuel and other high-level radioactive wastes. Wherever spent nuclear fuel is stored, the short-lived iodine-131 it contains will decay away quickly and completely. However, the long-lived iodine-129 will remain for millions of years. Keeping it from leaking into the environment, requires carefully designed, long-term safeguards.

http://www.epa.gov/radiation/radionuclides/iodine.html

thenuttyneutron

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Re: Japan
« Reply #77 on: May 27, 2011, 04:33 »
When will ever get these nubs to use "search buttons"    [devious]

Currently, spent nuclear fuel remains in temporary storage at nuclear power plants around the country. If the nuclear waste repository at Yucca Mountain opens, it will provide permanent disposal for spent nuclear fuel and other high-level radioactive wastes. Wherever spent nuclear fuel is stored, the short-lived iodine-131 it contains will decay away quickly and completely. However, the long-lived iodine-129 will remain for millions of years. Keeping it from leaking into the environment, requires carefully designed, long-term safeguards.

http://www.epa.gov/radiation/radionuclides/iodine.html

One of the nasty 7.

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: Japan
« Reply #78 on: Mar 20, 2012, 08:38 »
A year later, with appreciation from the residents:

« Last Edit: Mar 20, 2012, 08:42 by HydroDave63 »

Offline Marlin

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Re: Japan
« Reply #79 on: Mar 20, 2012, 09:17 »
A year later, with appreciation from the residents:



   Thank you very much for the post, I did tear up a bit. I lived in Japan as a young boy, I went through Jr High and my freshman year of High School there and have always had fond memories of Japan and the Japanese people I met there.

 


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