Japan

[Marlin]

Already Gone we seem to have hijacked your thread. I see that there is about a 3 to 1 ration of people who are looking forward to a contract over there. I hope whoever goes takes the time to visit the undamaged parts of the country and takes in a little of their culture. I still remember my reactions as a young boy to the alien feel of everything I encountered from the homes of my Japanese freinds to the Temples and Tokyo itself. My father had no problem with a 13 year old boy taking the bus into Tokyo to go to an ice skating rink or other public venue. He would not have done that here in the US. Language may not be a problem, although I learned a passable amount of Japanese (which is gone along with my two years Spanish in High School) it seemed like most of the younger people spoke english the world language of busisness.

[stownsend]

With a quick signature of the presidential pen all the rubble can be buried and left to decay.The remediation of rad contamination and reconstruction of their land has already been done in two cities. Go take some samples there and tell me the results.I really don't think they need HP's smearing and clearing.

[HydroDave63]

Look for someone greasing the skids to bury Japanese radwaste in American backyards. But, I think the Russians have more real estate, they're closer, they're cheaper, and they already have lots of square miles that will never (rhetorically) be usable again.

Just my $0.05 stretching out to a full $0.10,.....

Easiest solution for least money...2 cubic miles of concrete. Self-shielding.

[hamsamich]

Thinking out of the box here, but I think a good place to start would be to design a lightweight temporary decay heat removal system stored close enough to a reactor and easy enough to install within 36 hours or so of a RX accident.  Have it stored ready-to-install and tested on a frequent basis.  Have it stored in carrying cases small enough each one could be carried by the heaviest lifting helicopter available.  Have it stored with a power supply designed to operate it and have it simple enough to work easily (like firehose connections for its heat exchanger designed to use seawater). But have it far enough away so it should not be affected by the disaster.  You could have X number of them Y miles away at some ratio depending on how many reactors were nearby, how close they were to each other, how many units per site, blah blah blah.  I don't know if this is practical/cost effective or not but certainly worth looking into.  For that matter I'm sure this had to have been considered by someone as an option at sometime in the last 50 years.

This thread could be split into a couple of topics....not really on topic here.

[Already Gone]

1)  Im not sure how you can say an inherently unstable system is a good idea -.-. Ill do some research on your PWR's after initial refueling. I would happen to be in the "big leagues" now btw, but on a BWR.

2) As long as the big wigs still want it done, I have confidence it will get done. Cost is no object. when we are paying 8 dollars a gallon for gas, Im pretty willing to bet electrical power generation will come to a new level, nuclear plants included. I agree, most people are idiots/ignorant, no arguing that.

3) Well we already have plant designs and buildings in motion. Is the NRC going to just stop? Obama seems to think otherwise.

4) Amen, I agree with you 100%. I think you may be confusing profiteering of disaster with my points.

5) time will tell

6) dude... a catastrophic event exceeding design basis caused multiple system failures. Its not like some moron went out and just turned the pumps off. We know good and well "what happened" (an idea at least), but just as chernobyl gave way to containments, this incident will give way to catastrophe proof plants. We evolve off prior incidents, nature of the beast. Im fully confident we will come out stronger and safer because of this...  at least with the new plant designs.

1.) It is a good idea because it works to control reactivity.  It isn't necessarily unstable just because it isn't idiot-proof.
2.)The Big Wigs will, as you say, do what they want.  I just don't think they are going to want it badly enough to risk the $$$.
3.)Those buildings are no more than excavations at this point.  The NRC isn't going to stop them - just make it so hard to proceed that they will give up.  The money is what is going to kill this - not the NRC or Obama.
4.)No, I just threw that in to counter someone else's point - i think.
5.)Yeah, lots and lots of time.
6.)Can't blame nature.  "Exceeded design basis" translates into the fact that the design basis turned out to be not good enough.  Now, the burden of proof of every design is going to be higher - maybe impossibly high.
Yep, we will learn from this, just as we have learned from the past.  But we also learned from the Hindenburg incident - what we learned wasn't how to make safer Hydrogen dirigibles; we learned to stop flying them.
What WE learn from this will help us make better reactors.  What the public will learn from this is that they shouldn't have trusted us when we said it wouldn't happen.  I don't think that "I've learned my lesson, mea culpa" is going to be a persuasive enough confession to gain us back that trust.

[Nuclear Renaissance]

In this discussion, do not forget that US BWR/4s have implemented several modifications that could have stemmed the deteriorating conditions at Fukushima:

1. Severe Accident Mitigation diesel generators, that are in plant and tie directly into the station battery chargers, added because station blackout is so readily known as a huge core damage frequency component

2. Hardened vent, a primary containment vent path powered by backup nitrogen, that is capable of venting hydrogen to the outside while bypassing the secondary containment.

3. Extreme Damage Mitigation portable diesel pumps, with the capability of primary containment flooding or fuel pool spray, added because after 9/11, you just can never be sure what "design basis" is.

[Already Gone]

... because after 9/11, you just can never be sure what "design basis" is.

Exactly!

[Already Gone]

Are you intentionally myopic? If the plant had been designed with 9.0 as the design basis earthquake, then the supports for the pumps / motors / cables / switches / diesel generators would have been rigorous enough to withstand the earthquake. If siting criteria required preparations for a 30' wall of water moving 500 mph, same thing. Of course, you may not be able to get around inside the reactor building due to all of the extra supports (think Watts Bar's U-1 containment).

The fact is that an unanticipated natural disaster has struck perhaps the most prepared nation in the world and caused thousands of deaths and billions of $ of damage. All things considered, I think the response of the systems has been excellent. If forced cooling is established this week, there will probably not be any deaths due to radiation. Much better than Chernobyl.

Actually, just the opposite.
To get to the root of the problem, you have to start with the simplest explanation and branch out from there.
Ask the 5 Why's.

Problem:  Spent fuel pool is spewing radioactive material.
1-Why?
Because it is overheated.
2-Why?
Because the cooling pumps failed.
3-Why?
Because the tsunami knocked out all the power sources.
4-Why?
Because the design didn't anticipate a tsunami that big.
5-Why?


Follow that down every possible path.  You'll still get the first two answers.  But # 3 could be: because the terrorists destroyed the power sources - or - because the blackout and load rejection destroyed the switchgear - or - because the blah blah blah failed due to the blah blah blah.
For whatever #3 scenario that God or al Qaeda can think up for you, there is a word to replace tsunami in #4.
There is no acceptable answer to #5.  Didn't anticipate something that actually happened?  Why?  Can't be because it was impossible.  If it happened, it wasn't impossible.  Where does this logically end?  Build them to withstand a 9.0 earthquake, and eventually there will be a 9.1 earthquake.  Build them to survive a 30 foot tidal wave, and there will eventually be a 31 foot tidal wave.

Logic doesn't enter into it anyway.  We're talking about F-E-A-R.  Fear knows no logic other than the instinct to fear that which we do not understand.  For all the knowledge and understanding we foster, the anti-nukes will invent a new thing to fear.
It works for them.  I know not why.  Few if any people will die directly as a result of the nuclear plant melting down.  Many people die from many other things that nuclear power would help to prevent.  Still, people in California are on eBay looking for respirators and full-encapsulation HAZMAT suits.
Yeah, we'll keep explaining that to the world - the world full of people who inexplicably buy vowels on Wheel of Fortune - they won't be swayed.

"What a fool believes he sees, the wise man has no power to reason away." - Michael McDonald

[RDTroja]

It all boils down (sorry for that) to the last paragraph (well, minus the song lyrics) -- I have yet to hear someone say "It took a disaster that killed 10,000 people, caused Billions of dollars worth of damage, left many thousands homeless and did who knows what long term damage to the Japanese economy to cause a nuclear problem that may result in a few incidental cancers over the next 30 years or so. Aside from the workers in the plant, nobody is in significant danger (at least statistically.)

No, I don't want to be one of the few that gets cancer from the excess exposure, but people take greater risks all the time. Nuclear power plants have been THE reason that Japan has been able to be a world economic power. They have nothing else. They don't have their own oil or coal, and not enough land for solar or wind, even if it was viable. There is no way they could have supported their industrial infrastructure without nuclear. Yes, they would have survived, but they would not be the world's fourth largest (or thereabouts) economy or enjoyed the standard of living that they have had for the past 60 years.

There is risk in everything. There is no reward without it. Japan has gotten far more form nuclear power than they have lost because of this. Compared to what the earthquake and resulting tsunami have done to them the nuclear issue should be a minor concern assuming they can get it all under control, and they will.

That is the message we need to get out, but we will be drowned (sorry for that, too) out by the media who profit from fear.

[OldHP]

There is risk in everything. There is no reward without it. Japan has gotten far more form nuclear power than they have lost because of this. Compared to what the earthquake and resulting tsunami have done to them the nuclear issue should be a minor concern assuming they can get it all under control, and they will.
That is the message we need to get out, but we will be drowned (sorry for that, too) out by the media who profit from fear.

Quite true!  There is risk in driving to work or home from work - however; (and I've said it before in other threads), I would much rather live next door to a NPP than a coal burner.  In my previous life I had to demonstrate to the press that the Nukes were much safer (healthier) than the coal fired plants.  Think about it!

[navynukedoc]

In my previous life I had to demonstrate to the press that the Nukes were much safer (healthier) than the coal fired plants.  Think about it!

Coal dust in dry air, whew that is some nasty shit to put out of some old lady throws the butt of her Benson & Hedges out the car window!!!   

[PJMcG]

Logic doesn't enter into it anyway.  We're talking about F-E-A-R.  Fear knows no logic other than the instinct to fear that which we do not understand.  For all the knowledge and understanding we foster, the anti-nukes will invent a new thing to fear.
It works for them.  I know not why.  

Absolutely CORRECT!  DING!! 

And the reason that it works for them is that they (anti-nukes) don't try to argue on a technical basis, they don't attempt a rational discussion about comparative risks, and they don't suggest alternatives.  What they do is use fear to delay and delay means elevated cost and capital risk and eventually commercial nuclear power is not economically feasible.  What CEO will invest that kind of money with the the uncertainty and time line for receiving returns?  Who will insure it? And presto - no nukes - WINNING!

It is just much harder for the average person to get past the hysteria (Sheppard Smith has been abysmal in his fear mongering; I never liked the guy before, but his performance in Japan was pathetically shameless) and truly make a rational and informed decision after carefully weighing nuclear pros and cons.  Besides ... Jersey Shore and Dancing with the Stars is on tonight!  DUDE!  Come on Maaaaaaaan!

[RP Instructor]

   I did a little hazardous material retrieval for Katrina. Would not want to work or live in a disaster zone again. I lived in an RV on an Airport tarmac, most restaurants and stores were still shutdown so meals were served in tents by FEMA/EPA. I dealt with many of the victims as we had to get permission to enter their property if possible to retrieve tanks and material. Some of the retrieval was done on acres of debris that had been subdivisions reduced to a pile, seeing and walking on children's toys and peoples memories mixed in with house debris was not pleasant.
 
This would not be an outage with a nice motel room.

Kudos, Marlin. Well said. As you stated in a later thread, the Japanese are looking to us to help them, not profit from their disasterous misfortune.
In any case, whether your reasons for going are purely altruistic or strictly to profit,   brush up on your System Internationale (Metric System) units, and go ahead and buy a copy of the Rosetta Stone software, and start learning Japanese.

[navynukedoc]

Well it looks as if DeNuke already posted the job. And it states contract is already in place.

Go get'em tigers!!!

http://www.nukeworker.com/job/job/japan---immediate-need-sr.-rct-and-sr.hp/14254/

[thenukeman]

In Honor of My Fellow Nukeworkers going to Japan!!

Are you ready kids, Aye Aye Captain,  I can't hear you!!!  AYE AYE CAPTAIN!! Who works in a nuclear reactor by the sea.
Dose Sponge No Pants,
Tyvex of Yellow and contaminated is he.
Dose Sponge No Pants,
If Nuclear nonsense is something you wish.
Dose Sponge No Pants,
Then flop out you Teletector, and take your Boo Coo cash and put it  in a dish!!
Dose Sponge No Pants,
Ready, 
Dose Sponge No Pants,
Dose Sponge No Pants,
Dose Sponge No Pants,

[HydroDave63]

Easiest solution for least money...2 cubic miles of concrete. Self-shielding.

You read it here first! 
 

 SRS concrete pump heading to Japan nuclear site By Rob Pavey

The world’s largest concrete pump, deployed at the construction site of the U.S. government’s $4.86 billion mixed oxide fuel plant at Savannah River Site, is being moved to Japan in a series of emergency measures to help stabilize the Fukushima reactors.

http://chronicle.augusta.com/latest-news/2011-03-31/srs-concrete-pump-heading-japan-nuclear-site

[navynukedoc]

The world’s largest concrete pump, deployed at the construction site of the U.S. government’s $4.86 billion mixed oxide fuel plant at Savannah River Site, is being moved to Japan in a series of emergency measures to help stabilize the Fukushima reactors.

And so it be told, it seems to be worse off than reported.

I just found out from my contacts in the rad health side of the Navy, that all non essential rad con people are being staged in Hawaii to go in as soon as they are given the green light. (Guess the Reagan got dirtier than we thought)

[thenukeman]

Dose sponge no pants???

Just got done cleaning up the nuke plant in Japan??

Did they just take your pants??

Is your Dosimeter reading 4 R?  

[darkmatter]

Yes, all up in it to go. Got the go ahead from the wife and everything. 

Yeah, me too. However the Missus seemed very concerned about my life insurance premiums being paid up. No other objections by the Missus as she cranked up the laptop to scan E-bay listings...............

[Marlin]

Yes, all up in it to go. Got the go ahead from the wife and everything. 

  She would have to find your "Man Card" and give it back. I am sure you have not seen it for a while. 


Sorry I couldn't help myself. PM on the way!!!

[air23dan]

Who's got the contract for Japan?

[Cycoticpenguin]

And so it be told, it seems to be worse off than reported.

I just found out from my contacts in the rad health side of the Navy, that all non essential rad con people are being staged in Hawaii to go in as soon as they are given the green light. (Guess the Reagan got dirtier than we thought)

Id like to see some paper work on this.... I doubt highly they are going to send their precious ELT's and RHO's to help, they have their own issues to deal with imo. As for the ship, a simple counter measure wash down and deck scrubbing would be sufficient to rid of any contamination on the ship, and their staff is plenty for that O.o

[Marlin]

Who's got the contract for Japan?

I am sure that it is multiple contractors, but DeNuke has posted on NukeWorker for Techs.

[thenuttyneutron]

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/super-typhoon-songda-projected-pass-over-fukushima-nuclear-power-plant

I can't support the notion that I-131 will be their problem as stated in the article.  99% of the I-131 should be gone by now.  The other longer lived nasty stuff could be an issue.

[Cycoticpenguin]

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/super-typhoon-songda-projected-pass-over-fukushima-nuclear-power-plant

I can't support the notion that I-131 will be their problem as stated in the article.  99% of the I-131 should be gone by now.  The other longer lived nasty stuff could be an issue.

the longer lived stuff is particulates, no?