Is there a specific reason only ET's can manipulate rods?

[Cycoticpenguin]

Im still trying to make sense of this. What specific training do ET's get that allow them to manipulate rods vs the other nuke rates? As a mechanic I could qualify watch supervisor, reactor technician, and ultimately watch officer (in a round about way), but why never able to control rods?  There is probably some specific reason, hoping someone can shine a lot on it for me

now I know a couple of you older gentlemen were able to on your subs, what was the difference there?

[drayer54]

Im still trying to make sense of this. What specific training do ET's get that allow them to manipulate rods vs the other nuke rates? As a mechanic I could qualify watch supervisor, reactor technician, and ultimately watch officer (in a round about way), but why never able to control rods?  There is probably some specific reason, hoping someone can shine a lot on it for me
now I know a couple of you older gentlemen were able to on your subs, what was the difference there?

1) Maybe it's a good thing you didn't manipulate rods  
2) They took ETRO in NPS and qualified it in prototype, we learned how to spit Copenhagen into the corner when nobody was looking (No GC, we didn't actually do that, it's just to make a point  )
3) I don't recall as an MM being able to qualify Reactor Technician, that would scare me just because of the cabinets I didn't know too much about.
4) We didn't get the theory of why behind it. We were taught pump curves and fluid systems. This actually makes sense to me, because of the difference in the pipeline. It's difficult to justify having us do things that we are not actually trained to do. This is also probably the most important watchstander in the plant, I wouldn't want someone who is thrilled to be standing watch in the A/C to be in charge of the rods.
5) I have heard enough submariners tell stories to know that they can do anything and everything. It probably didn't hurt that they didn't always have the man flying on the ship to keep an eye on the operation. I have also found submariners to be kind of like fisherman.... I love to fish and if I could to do it again, it would be as a sub guy.

*- Corrected

[Cycoticpenguin]

1) Maybe it's a good thing you didn't manipulate rods  
2) They took ETEO in NPS and qualified it in prototype, we learned how to spit Copenhagen into the corner when nobody was looking (No GC, we didn't actually do that, it's just to make a point  )
3) I don't recall as an MM being able to qualify Reactor Technician, that would scare me just because of the cabinets I didn't know too much about.
4) We didn't get the theory of why behind it. We were taught pump curves and fluid systems. This actually makes sense to me, because of the difference in the pipeline. It's difficult to justify having us do things that we are not actually trained to do. This is also probably the most important watchstander in the plant, I wouldn't want someone who is thrilled to be standing watch in the A/C to be in charge of the rods.
5) I have heard enough submariners tell stories to know that they can do anything and everything. It probably didn't hurt that they didn't always have the man flying on the ship to keep an eye on the operation. I have also found submariners to be kind of like fisherman.... I love to fish and if I could to do it again, it would be as a sub guy.

1) ... soon enough I will be manipulating rods on a reactor that uses yours as a startup source
2) Yeah I gathered that, however, I still dont understand why them qualifying electrical theory makes them the only people worthy of doing rod manipulations. You can qualify reactor technician as a mechanic, which is the supervisory watch station to the RO's... doesnt make sense to me...
3) you definitely can...
4) eh, you can argue level of knowledge and "whos #@% is bigger" all day. Id consider CRW just as important as RO.
5) yeah yeah. Theres been plenty of spats about it, and Im sure they arent lying about it, but that was many moons ago.

Still, I get the ETEO thing, but 1 2 month class just seems to be asinine to "know" how to control the plant.

[drayer54]

4) eh, you can argue level of knowledge and "whos #@% is bigger" all day. Id consider CRW just as important as RO. . .
Still, I get the ETEO thing, but 1 2 month class just seems to be asinine to "know" how to control the plant.

In a worst case scenario, actions need to happen quickly and precisely which is not as true for a CRW who isn't actually performing the actions. As a former CRW, I know that it is important, but it doesn't even compare to the responsibility upstairs. A CRW screw up is much easier to fix than a worst case SRO screw up.
ETRO* isn't what teaches them to know how to control the plant, it's what lets them learn how to control the plant. Minor difference.

*- Corrected

[DDMurray]

First of all ETs take ETRO not ETEO.  ETEO is for EM's.

Secondly, the NPTU qual card is what really provides the difference. 

Additionally, the EDM provides specifc knowledge and practical factors that those qualifying RO (and EWS/EOOW/SRO) must know/perform.  MMs and EMs (outside of SRO) only have to meet generic requirements.

CM using Broadzilla-type language causes me suddenly to taste my own vomit.

[MMM]

1) ... soon enough I will be manipulating rods on a reactor that uses yours as a startup source
2) Yeah I gathered that, however, I still dont understand why them qualifying electrical theory makes them the only people worthy of doing rod manipulations. You can qualify reactor technician as a mechanic, which is the supervisory watch station to the RO's... doesnt make sense to me...
3) you definitely can...
4) eh, you can argue level of knowledge and "whos #@% is bigger" all day. Id consider CRW just as important as RO.
5) yeah yeah. Theres been plenty of spats about it, and Im sure they arent lying about it, but that was many moons ago.

Still, I get the ETEO thing, but 1 2 month class just seems to be asinine to "know" how to control the plant.

3) On a carrier, a non-ET cannot qualify RT, as RO is a prereq. On a submarine, RT is the equivilent of our Instrument Watch, and is just a roving junior ET.

[Gamecock]

2) They took ETRO in NPS and qualified it in prototype, we learned how to spit Copenhagen into the corner when nobody was looking (No GC, we didn't actually do that, it's just to make a point  )

FYI....I was a prior nuke MM (class 9106, Orlando, FL)  and a plankowner on CVN-73.  I know what goes on in the back corner when nobody is looking

[drayer54]

I already knew he was an MM and LT on Mighty Warship Eisenhower, that wasn't why I said it....
I just wasn't sure if he remembered the little stuff. It's been awhile now...

[Cycoticpenguin]

MMM -> on my last carrier, there was no RO pre req for RT. They had to put in a request chit to qualify it though, so "could" is a possibility, "likely" is another thing all together . I dont know if its "supposed" to be like that, but it wasnt on my ship, you just had to have a "33XX nec" to qual it.  Im sure it would be a cold day in hell before a mechanic quald RT obviously.

Murray -> haha I was like "what are you talking about..." then i went reread my post and got a kick out of that

[JustinHEMI05]

Probably the same reason you can't go and manipulate reactivity controls at your plant.

Justin

[DLGN25]

Back in the day (1967-72), RO's were either ET's or IC's (Interior Communications).  These ratings had the training in electronic theory necessary for maintenance of reactor instrumentation.  On Bainbridge, those who where or would become RO's were in Reactor Controls Division, which was responsible for reactor operation and instrumentation maintenance and repair.  ET's first qualified as Reactor Technician, basically on the instrumentation and instrumentation alley watch, the secondary control of the reactor.  Once qualified as an RT, you were assigned to instrumentation maintenance and repair.  RO was the next, and final qualification for an ET.  To get there, you had to qualify on all engine room and control room watch stations.   You had to understand all the electrical distribution and plant cross connections.  You had to understand the interaction of everything in the plant.  Back then, the RO was the second in line watch under the Engineering Watch Officer. 

Do I think other ratings could have qualified as a RO, sure, but only if RT was out of the loop.

Oh, when you qualified RO, you also qualified as the senior shutdown watch.  I wish they then allowed the Electricians to qualify shutdown, it would have made the in port watch rotation a whole lot nicer.

And another thing.  I could draw and talk tech and theory on the valve op system, but man did I have a difficult time looking at the actual maze of piping and making heads and tails out of it. 

For the most part, being an RO was boring, the guy who worked his tail off was feed control during rapid maneuvering.

[HydroDave63]

4) eh, you can argue level of knowledge and "whos #@% is bigger" all day. Id consider CRW just as important as RO.

Sadly, some crusty Admiral at NAVSEA08 who hasn't stood the watch would disagree. Maybe you can write him and explain all of this to him.

Bottom line: It's just the Man keepin ya down. No other answer will suffice  

[Cycoticpenguin]

Sadly, some crusty Admiral at NAVSEA08 who hasn't stood the watch would disagree. Maybe you can write him and explain all of this to him.

Bottom line: It's just the Man keepin ya down. No other answer will suffice  

Lol its far beyond my realm of caring, just curious what people think or know.


Justin- > yes, but I do eventually have the option of doing so, whereas people in the navy have no way of doing said activities.

[JustinHEMI05]

Absolutely they do. When they are in a qual/training program requiring such things, like EOOW/EWS.

Justin

[drayer54]

Lol its far beyond my realm of caring, just curious what people think or know.


Justin- > yes, but I do eventually have the option of doing so, whereas people in the navy have no way of doing said activities.

You care you super diggit you... Don't lie!
Opportunities tend to be greater outside than in the Navy in many ways, this one is no exception. Justin was right though. (as for my top opportunity I have been missing out on
The slow pitch softball opportunity is coming soon    )

Also PM me the name of any MM who qualified RT, I am still skeptical of this.

[HydroDave63]

Amen to that, I qualified at D1G, I loathed those feedwater control valves during drills,...

There was a "touch" to running that station, I never quite got it mastered during my prototype tenure, and it has always bothered me that I didn't,...

One had to sort of play it by ear i.e. anticipate the rate of change of valve position by the different hisses of the air leaking from the Hagan cabinet. A real treat when the  circuit is failed, and the ship is pitching and rolling between S/G high and low level alarms while valving manually...

[drayer54]

One had to sort of play it by ear i.e. anticipate the rate of change of valve position by the different hisses of the air leaking from the Hagan cabinet. A real treat when the   circuit is failed, and the ship is pitching and rolling between S/G high and low level alarms while valving manually...

I still remember the day very well that we got rid of our Hagan air cabinet. We hated that thing because of the trouble it caused us and the complete pain in the butt that it was to work it.
We stood together as a plant and held our covers to our chest in silence as they rigged it away.... Quite the moment. Nobody missed it......
The new system is much better.

Amen to that, I qualified at D1G, I loathed those feedwater control valves during drills,...

There was a "touch" to running that station, I never quite got it mastered during my prototype tenure, and it has always bothered me that I didn't,...

I would write a letter volunteering to stand some watch so that you can (unless this is one of the long gone proto's) and explain to them that it is on your bucket list. Identify yourself in the letter as a "Great American"....

[Cycoticpenguin]

Absolutely they do. When they are in a qual/training program requiring such things, like EOOW/EWS.

Justin

a watch officer or watch supervisor will never touch rods unless they are an ET or UI, and thats kinda my point here 

[JustinHEMI05]

a watch officer or watch supervisor will never touch rods unless they are an ET or UI, and thats kinda my point here  

The same is true in the commercial world. You won't touch them unless you are in a qualified training program or have a license. I don't get your point. Who cares? Not sure why you do... even though you said you don't... but you asked so you do.

Justin

[Marlin]

a watch officer or watch supervisor will never touch rods unless they are an ET or UI, and thats kinda my point here 

  Conversely, an ET never touches a rod unless there is a an EOOW/EWS present. Primary plant samples and analysis are done only by ELTs with just a reader present. I don't think either is beyond the capability of other watch standers, it is simply better to keep some critical functions (no pun intended   ) limited to a few watchstanders to keep the skillset sharp. At one DOE site I worked the chemical operations and  maintenace management kept as many people qualified as fissile material handlers as possible to accommodate scheduling and production. After a number of minor infractions that number was cut way back to ensure that that those handling fissile material were proficient.

"That's just my opinion, I could be wrong." D.M.

[Cycoticpenguin]

The same is true in the commercial world. You won't touch them unless you are in a qualified training program or have a license. I don't get your point. Who cares? I certainly wouldn't want some stupid mechanic moving my rods.

Justin

ARG! . A mechanic in the navy will never have the ability to touch rods. NLO's, RP tech's, FIN's, MT's, I&C techs can ALL move up to become a rod manipulator (after the appropriate training). Id say this is equivalent to ONLY NLO's being allowed to become an RO.

[JustinHEMI05]

Like I said in my edited post, who cares? Besides you? Like Marlin said, some things are NEC specific.

[Nuclear NASCAR]

Id say this is equivalent to ONLY NLO's being allowed to become an RO.

That's the path that all those you mentioned will HAVE to go through at most plants.  We had a few go directly to RO training a few years back but none of them are still there and I believe that all of them had prior NLO experience.

[JustinHEMI05]

That's the path that all those you mentioned will HAVE to go through at most plants.  We had a few go directly to RO training a few years back but none of them are still there and I believe that all of them had prior NLO experience.

That is true, all the other groups CM mentioned, they would all have to go through NLO.

[Cycoticpenguin]

That is true, all the other groups CM mentioned, they would all have to go through NLO.

half of our instants are from engineering and RP with no NLO experience. Not trying to start a cock fight here, just wondering whats going on. Who cares? No one. Merely scratching an itch.

Seems like the answer is "because I said so", and Im ok with that, just wondering if there was something Father Rickover did to make these things the way they are.

ELT's go through a separate 6 month schooling to get their NEC, where the ET's seem to go plug and chug right along with us, if theres something there I didnt see, so be it

[JustinHEMI05]

Now you are changing your story. Instant sro isn't what you were talking about when you mentioned I&c and others.

Point is, not just anyone can become "rod manipulators" in the commercial world, either, and no one without a license or in a licensing program can touch them.

Why does it bother you that MMs can't qualify RO in the navy?

[Cycoticpenguin]

Source Range envy,...

Im beyond "caring" anymore, if I was still crankin on a navy plant, maybe. I never cared to be honest, just a curiosity thing, i promise

[JustinHEMI05]

You're the one that said it was an itch. An itch is a bother. Just sayin.

[Cycoticpenguin]

You're the one that said it was an itch. An itch is a bother. Just sayin.

Touche sir. Im still in that phase where im comparing everything to the navy. I realized this week, I have no idea how to set up a normal dr visit

[JustinHEMI05]

LOL yeah, I know what you mean. The sooner you start forgetting what was bad about the navy and only remembering the good, the better off you will be. I held onto my bitterness for a few months out of the Navy, until Navliv smacked some sense into me. He said something like "You're out of the Navy now, the fact that you are still angry and bitter is on you." Woke me up, haven't looked back since. Now only think of the good things and tell sea stories like the rest of them, and refrain from Navy bashing.

After all... I am where I am today because of the Navy.

Justin

[OldHP]

Touche sir. Im still in that phase where im comparing everything to the navy. I realized this week, I have no idea how to set up a normal dr visit

And once you get through it (applies to all branches of the military) life becomes so much better and the negative shifts toward the positive!  Kudos for recognixing where you are in life!

[HydroDave63]

I have no idea how to set up a normal dr visit

But are you a normal patient? 

[Zog]

I was an EM on subs in the 90's. Qualified RT, EWS, SRO, and all the normal EM stuff. Wanted to qualify RO just because I wanted to. CO supported me and tried to get permission from whoever he needed to get permission from, it was denied.

So, qualified FT, ST, COW, and my favorite one, lookout. CO brought 4 cigars on every run. One for him and one for me headed out, and 2 more for pulling back in. Last run he gave me the conn and let me park it at the pier, never had to use the outboard. Fondest memories I have of the Navy were in the sail.

[IPREGEN]

The Navy lets you operate the equipment you have been trained to maintain.

But depending on the watch crew you may be able to try a variety of things "under instruction"

It gets boring out there and you will need diversions

[modex]

Smells like the legacy of Rickover.
Go through the applicable technical manual and count the number of incident reports regarding improper rod/plant operation due to unexpected system response whose root cause was incomplete understanding of the system.
At some point the old man probably declared: "Only ET's will stand RO" and law was made.

[Cycoticpenguin]

Smells like the legacy of Rickover.
Go through the applicable technical manual and count the number of incident reports regarding improper rod/plant operation due to unexpected system response whose root cause was incomplete understanding of the system.
At some point the old man probably declared: "Only ET's will stand RO" and law was made.

.

[Higgs]

Listen, XXXX XXXXXXXXX of the uss memphis in an inactivity shut down... you may want to get rid of that post.

Except even if he wises up, you've preserved it for posterity.

[Cycoticpenguin]

Except even if he wises up, you've preserved it for posterity.

nope, Id edit it out. Stupid shall be punished in this case.

[FishyT]

Deleted previous at recommendation. My fault, won't happen again.

[Cycoticpenguin]

Deleted previous at recommendation. My fault, won't happen again.

change your email address to private as well... putting first and last name + your ship + talking about illegal activity like its no big deal, what kind of nuke are you . Be smart please.

edit : i edited my post as promised.

[FishyT]

An explaination won't help my case, but I will work on my delivery in any future posts.

[OldHP]

An explaination won't help my case, but I will work on my delivery in any future posts. 

change your email address to private as well... putting first and last name + your ship + talking about illegal activity like its no big deal, what kind of nuke are you . Be smart please.   

You do realize you are both in the NCIS database as potential threats to the program, particularly after deleted posts and responses.    

[Already Gone]

The Navy lets you operate the equipment you have been trained to maintain.

But depending on the watch crew you may be able to try a variety of things "under instruction"

It gets boring out there and you will need diversions

That isn't true either.  I was the first (and probably only) MM to qualify Throttleman in the 704 boat.
All of the MM's were qualified Throttleman on the 724.  In either case, only ET's and EM's stood the watch on the regular rotation.  ET's and EM's are not trained to maintain the Main Engines, Reduction Gears, or the Hydraulic Throttle Control System.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell us about the days when Enginemen were qualified RO and IC's were the other source rating for ELT.  Maybe they are all long gone by now.

[DLGN25]

That isn't true either.  I was the first (and probably only) MM to qualify Throttleman in the 704 boat.
All of the MM's were qualified Throttleman on the 724.  In either case, only ET's and EM's stood the watch on the regular rotation.  ET's and EM's are not trained to maintain the Main Engines, Reduction Gears, or the Hydraulic Throttle Control System.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell us about the days when Enginemen were qualified RO and IC's were the other source rating for ELT.  Maybe they are all long gone by now.

While things may have changed since 1967-1970,  with the exception of the engineering watch officer, RO's had to qualify on every watch station in the engine room, including ELT as it related to the reactor coolant and SG's.  The qualification process included the understanding of the inner workings of the equipment associated with the watch station.  Now I am not saying that an RO knew as much as a MM when it became necessary to repair a piece of equipment, but he knew how it worked, how to operate it, and the part it played in the successful operations of the plant.

A fully qualified RO was capable of standing all watch stations in a start up, shutdown, or steaming mode.

As to EM's qualifying as shutdown reactor watches (not the case in my day), I suspect it was all about manpower issues.  Unlike all the other watch stations, the reactor watch (and charging station) had to be manned as long as there was fuel in the reactor.   

As I have stated elsewhere, there is no technical reason other ratings could not qualify as a RO other then the Navy saying NO. 

As to having a fun watch, I found EW ELINT (electronic surveillance and counter measures) watches to be more fun and challenging.  It was especially rewarding when you detected an approaching submarine before SONAR did.  One sweep of their radar was all it took, and you got them. (probably something not necessary these days)

Oh, another thing, back in the day, ET's IC's (RO's), MM's, and EM's frequently worked their rates outside of the nuclear program.  As an ET, I served as an RO on Bainbridge, and as OE Divison LPO on Decatur.  Also back then sea shore rotation was 2-3 years each, not the rotation those in the service now 'enjoy'.

Enough of an old man opining on the past.

[Cycoticpenguin]

DLGN -> that one post explained everything pretty much. It sounds like the RO's were far more involved with the plant at one point, probably taken more seriously then nowadays.

that 2-3 rotation would be amazing! Unfortunately, the way most of the people off my old boat "qualified", it would take two or 3 rotations to get senior in rate .

[Neutron Whisperer]

Back in the day (1967-72), RO's were either ET's or IC's (Interior Communications).  These ratings had the training in electronic theory necessary for maintenance of reactor instrumentation.  On Bainbridge, those who where or would become RO's were in Reactor Controls Division, which was responsible for reactor operation and instrumentation maintenance and repair.  ET's first qualified as Reactor Technician, basically on the instrumentation and instrumentation alley watch, the secondary control of the reactor.  Once qualified as an RT, you were assigned to instrumentation maintenance and repair.  RO was the next, and final qualification for an ET.  To get there, you had to qualify on all engine room and control room watch stations.   You had to understand all the electrical distribution and plant cross connections.  You had to understand the interaction of everything in the plant.  Back then, the RO was the second in line watch under the Engineering Watch Officer. 

Do I think other ratings could have qualified as a RO, sure, but only if RT was out of the loop.

Oh, when you qualified RO, you also qualified as the senior shutdown watch.  I wish they then allowed the Electricians to qualify shutdown, it would have made the in port watch rotation a whole lot nicer.

And another thing.  I could draw and talk tech and theory on the valve op system, but man did I have a difficult time looking at the actual maze of piping and making heads and tails out of it. 

For the most part, being an RO was boring, the guy who worked his tail off was feed control during rapid maneuvering.

It's Reactor Control Division.  There's just one.

[USSMiamiElex]

Im still trying to make sense of this. What specific training do ET's get that allow them to manipulate rods vs the other nuke rates? As a mechanic I could qualify watch supervisor, reactor technician, and ultimately watch officer (in a round about way), but why never able to control rods?  There is probably some specific reason, hoping someone can shine a lot on it for me

now I know a couple of you older gentlemen were able to on your subs, what was the difference there?

Old Ex-Nuc here, but I found it way more fun to be an EM than it looked to be an ET.  Loved being throttleman and EO on a 688 class boat.  I spent a ton of hours in Maneuvering, and sitting in the middle wasnt really a big deal...

Good times.  Enjoy them while they last.

[Higgs]

Old Ex-Nuc here, but I found it way more fun to be an EM than it looked to be an ET.  Loved being throttleman and EO on a 688 class boat.  I spent a ton of hours in Maneuvering, and sitting in the middle wasnt really a big deal...

Good times.  Enjoy them while they last.

Hey I am an ex Miami submariner. 00-04. MM/ELT.