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Offline wdp74gnt

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prototype... filter or pump?
« on: Apr 07, 2011, 09:07 »
So I am in my fourth week of prototype... So far it isn't that bad. I am ahead of the curve and just focusing on checkouts instead of B.S.ing with other people. My question is what is the attrition rate once one is in prototype? Also are they just pushing in training nukes through now? Also what advice can you give me on my prime. I am an upper level (mechanic). I am supposed go onto on crew in 3 weeks.

JustinHEMI05

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #1 on: Apr 07, 2011, 09:19 »
My question is what is the attrition rate once one is in prototype? Also are they just pushing in training nukes through now?



 [jerry]

Also what advice can you give me on my prime. I am an upper level (mechanic). I am supposed go onto on crew in 3 weeks.

If you haven't already, start walking down the logs and systems in your space. Then, walk down your most frequently used procedures such as start up and shut down. Be able to move through them efficiently and without error BEFORE you actually have to perform them.

Thank you for your service and good luck!

Justin
« Last Edit: Apr 07, 2011, 09:20 by JustinHEMI »

drayer54

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #2 on: Apr 07, 2011, 10:31 »
For my class it was a filter. We lost several due to academics in prototype. Of the 8 mechanics on my crew during prototype, I was the only one to finish my enlistment. We had sad kids, medical issues, 3 deserters, and ole me. I think I finished in the lower half there too due to my slide through mentality that was wrecked when I met the test. My advice is to not do what I did: figure out how to get signatures really easily without knowing a thing and then getting way ahead and assuming that it meant I knew something. The first test I took bumped me back to my place real quick...... Have fun though!

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #3 on: Apr 07, 2011, 10:46 »
Mine was a filter as well. Not academically but for the absolute whack job loonies that dont come out until 3rd night on swing shift.

That said, you;'re ahead of the curve, and seem to be doing fine, why do you care??? 

that said, I was an upper level prime :). What prototype are you at? you can start by following the instructor standing the watch around as an observer a few times (more then your book requires would be a good start). Dont be afraid to talk, they should be willing to talk and help. You would do well to learn how the TG starts up! Start learning your main steam drawing, down pat. Get that MEMORIZED asap. Ask instructors to go over it with you, its extremely vital as that system will be your bread and butter.

good luck!  Your ahead of the curve now, thats the best place to be, I promise :). If you start slipping, get your butt in the plant and get check outs there if you arent already. Dont be afraid to hit up those watch supervisors, most of them can sign most of your book!

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #4 on: Apr 07, 2011, 10:56 »
that said, I was an upper level prime :).

Isn't that what they call the 8 dollar seats at the top of Dodger Stadium? ;)

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #5 on: Apr 07, 2011, 10:59 »
Isn't that what they call the 8 dollar seats at the top of Dodger Stadium? ;)

This is the best you got? I would expect nothing less then a transformers reference at worst ;)

Offline Marlin

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #6 on: Apr 08, 2011, 07:24 »
My question is what is the attrition rate once one is in prototype? Also are they just pushing in training nukes through now?

"Needs of the Navy" is the Key phrase here, the attrition rate can change from year to year.

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #7 on: Apr 09, 2011, 10:32 »
"Needs of the Navy" is the Key phrase here, the attrition rate can change from year to year.

I wasnt an instructor, but I have hard time believing them getting briefed before a class up

"ok guys, we only need XXXX nukes this year, so we need to fail out XX of them out of this class. Get ir done!"


My class had the 3rd highest gpa to go through power school. The class ahead of us came darn close to setting a record low. I had a 3.33 in powerschool and was bottom half :( for reference. Id be willing to bet the quality of recruiting may change? i.e. scraping the dregs to get nukes in. If that was your point, then I apologize.








Offline Marlin

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #8 on: Apr 10, 2011, 10:40 »
I wasnt an instructor, but I have hard time believing them getting briefed before a class up

"ok guys, we only need XXXX nukes this year, so we need to fail out XX of them out of this class. Get ir done!"


My class had the 3rd highest gpa to go through power school. The class ahead of us came darn close to setting a record low. I had a 3.33 in powerschool and was bottom half :( for reference. Id be willing to bet the quality of recruiting may change? i.e. scraping the dregs to get nukes in. If that was your point, then I apologize.

   I means what it says, the Navy will adjust to each new circumstance in the best interest of the Navy. When I enlisted the entry scores were 5 points higher than the Naval Academy on GCT/ARI which was our standard. However there was no shortage of enlistees due to the Vietnam war and because of the war there was no shortage of places to put drop outs in a 600 ship Navy. The bottom third of my A school class was dropped whether they passed or not, three speeding tickets or three late for class were enough to wash you from the program Today changes in the economy or other factors may influence the number who are willing to enlist and a shrinking Navy puts pressure on the program to only bring in those who can make it. Not better or worse just the way it is to meet he "Needs of the Navy".

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #9 on: Apr 10, 2011, 04:54 »
Resume the draft at ~100,000 bodies per year. Darwin will keep the pipeline full.

drayer54

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #10 on: Apr 10, 2011, 06:29 »
Resume the draft at ~100,000 bodies per year. Darwin will keep the pipeline full.
McDonald's may make that more difficult than you realize. Food for freedom gets a whole new meaning with 75% of our teens being too fat or too stupid to get in. Not smart enough for a AO? :stupidme:
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/military-recruitment-grapples-obesity-epidemic/story?id=11431486

I think there are too many factors ( Academic fails, discipline fails, pregos, sad pandas, deserters, & such) for anyone to keep a set value of what the pipeline needs to push through.

Needs of the Navy means NR is going to what's best for NR at all times. They don't care about Chief X or Petty Officer X, they care about the needs of NR.
« Last Edit: Apr 10, 2011, 06:31 by drayer54 »

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #11 on: Apr 10, 2011, 06:39 »
I think there are too many factors ( Academic fails, discipline fails, pregos, sad pandas, deserters, & such) for anyone to keep a set value of what the pipeline needs to push through.

Lose your NEC, be derated to Buttswain's Mate. Should be plenty of motivation!

drayer54

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #12 on: Apr 10, 2011, 07:43 »
Lose your NEC, be derated to Buttswain's Mate. Should be plenty of motivation!
Not when you are too fat or stupid to get in the door. (which is my point as to why the draft wouldn't work well with current standards)

Prototype was a blast for me. I had a small loft apartment above the bars in Saratoga. It couldn't of been much more fun. I could have done without the cold though.

Offline playswithairplanes

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #13 on: Apr 11, 2011, 05:41 »
Prototype was a Filter in 1987. We lost at least 10 people from my class in Idaho, one of whom was my roomie who skipped town and stuck me with the bills. Freakin' bastard.

We had a few academic drops, 4 or 5 fail their final boards, and 1 or 2 for DUI etc.

Idaho was pretty interesting for Prototype. Lots to do on your 4 off. Ah, yea... high altitude beer party, heavily armed, camping trips. Good times.... good times.
Airplanes and submarines... they are similar it's just the density of the fluid that separates them

Offline Marlin

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #14 on: Apr 11, 2011, 08:19 »
Resume the draft at ~100,000 bodies per year. Darwin will keep the pipeline full.

Ugly times, local judges gave young men the option of going to jail with a felony record or enlisting, the draft fueled anti military sentiment and rich families found a way to keep their kids out of the draft or listed as 4F. As negative as some see the attitude in the Navy now I can almost guarantee it was much worse during the draft.


Of course if this is just  :-> ...never mind, as you were  ;)  [coffee]

drayer54

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #15 on: Apr 11, 2011, 09:40 »
Ugly times, local judges gave young men the option of going to jail with a felony record or enlisting, the draft fueled anti military sentiment and
I think it is a major improvement for our military that we have raised our standards to not let in the people that society doesn't want. I get a little defensive when people look at someone and act like they have no choice or should just go join the military because they have burnt every other bridge. I acknowledge that it is an opportunity for some, but nobody wants to serve next to the jail dodgers and people who got backdoored into being there. If only we could raise the ASVAB standards further and keep the trend going.....
(Which you would know if you read my essay that was in Navy Times, not that anyone cares about Navy Times)
rich families found a way to keep their kids out of the draft or listed as 4F. As negative as some see the attitude in the Navy now I can almost guarantee it was much worse during the draft.
I think we can rest assured that this wouldn't happen today...  ::) ::) :->

Offline Gamecock

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #16 on: Apr 12, 2011, 07:16 »
If only we could raise the ASVAB standards further and keep the trend going.....
(Which you would know if you read my essay that was in Navy Times, not that anyone cares about Navy Times)I think we can rest assured that this wouldn't happen today...  ::) ::) :->

Why don't you figure out a way to post it here.  I would like to read it, but I'm not going to  read it in that rag you mention.

GC
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Offline HydroDave63

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #17 on: Apr 12, 2011, 08:01 »
the draft fueled anti military sentiment and rich families found a way to keep their kids out of the draft or listed as 4F.

That's odd, Elvis, Ted Williams and Willie Mays were fairly famous and/or affluent when they were drafted. Just because a few corrupt politicians of the Entitlement Generation let the rules slide during Nam doesn't mean a legitimate conscription wouldn't be a useful tool in raising recruitment standards today.

Offline Gamecock

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #18 on: Apr 12, 2011, 08:25 »
That's odd, Elvis, Ted Williams and Willie Mays were fairly famous and/or affluent when they were drafted. Just because a few corrupt politicians of the Entitlement Generation let the rules slide during Nam doesn't mean a legitimate conscription wouldn't be a useful tool in raising recruitment standards today.

Ted Williams = American Hero

Fought in multiple wars...

and I almost forgot......

Greatest Baseball player of all time.
“If the thought police come... we will meet them at the door, respectfully, unflinchingly, willing to die... holding a copy of the sacred Scriptures in one hand and the US Constitution in the other."

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #19 on: Apr 12, 2011, 09:09 »
That's odd, Elvis, Ted Williams and Willie Mays were fairly famous and/or affluent when they were drafted. Just because a few corrupt politicians of the Entitlement Generation let the rules slide during Nam doesn't mean a legitimate conscription wouldn't be a useful tool in raising recruitment standards today.

How would a forced draft raise recruiting standards???  Or is that your point of saying "legitimate"?

Offline DLGN25

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #20 on: Apr 12, 2011, 04:51 »
Not intending to be braggadocios, but while going through my military records, I came across my nuke records.

NNPS, a 3.613 put me 14 out of 69
D1G prototype, a 3.178 put me 31 out or 96 (and I drank way to much, a miracle I made it, perhaps that week I was restricted to base had something to do with it.)

Now I do not know how this stacks up with grading today, but that was the spread in 67-68.  It looks to me like at prototype, if a 3.178 put you in the top one third, there were a whole lot in the 2.5-3.0 region.

Was it a pump or a filter?  I cannot really say, other then of the guys I went through the schools with, I can recall only four who dropped out.  All for psychiatric reasons.
Surely oak and three-fold brass surrounded his heart who first trusted a frail vessel to a merciless ocean.  Horace

Offline Marlin

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #21 on: Apr 12, 2011, 06:05 »
That's odd, Elvis, Ted Williams and Willie Mays were fairly famous and/or affluent when they were drafted. Just because a few corrupt politicians of the Entitlement Generation let the rules slide during Nam doesn't mean a legitimate conscription wouldn't be a useful tool in raising recruitment standards today.

WWII = Nam... I don't think so.

   A draft for our "police actions" I still think are a bad idea, we have patriots like Tillman who gave it all, but in our highly ideologically split society today I think the Vietnam scenario fits better.

oooo35980

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #22 on: Apr 12, 2011, 06:33 »
I found the whole thing a pump, there were a few people that were removed for academic failure before prototype, but mostly they had 2.7 or 2.8 GPAs and the huge amounts of mandatory hours just took the fight out of them.  Prototype we had alot of people give up and say they wanted to commit suicide to get out.  I don't remember any academic failures though, alot of people failed every test, including comp on the first try and still passed.  There were also people so behind the curve that they graduated with the class behind them, we called them Senior Senior Class.

Offline DLGN25

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #23 on: Apr 12, 2011, 07:13 »
I found the whole thing a pump, there were a few people that were removed for academic failure before prototype, but mostly they had 2.7 or 2.8 GPAs and the huge amounts of mandatory hours just took the fight out of them.  Prototype we had alot of people give up and say they wanted to commit suicide to get out.  I don't remember any academic failures though, alot of people failed every test, including comp on the first try and still passed.  There were also people so behind the curve that they graduated with the class behind them, we called them Senior Senior Class.

That is a pump...

The draft and Vietnam put a lot of people with some college, if not a degree into the system.  Most of the nukes back then had college.   There was no such thing as being held back.  The threat of orders to Gitmo or PBR's made the point you did not want to fail.

Surely oak and three-fold brass surrounded his heart who first trusted a frail vessel to a merciless ocean.  Horace

Offline Marlin

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #24 on: Apr 12, 2011, 07:57 »
The draft and Vietnam put a lot of people with some college, if not a degree into the system.  Most of the nukes back then had college. 

Very true, I was a few years behind you but in my class only three of us were High School grads everyone else had at least two years of college.

The threat of orders to Gitmo or PBR's made the point you did not want to fail.

River Boats were a strong incentive.  ;)

Offline Gamecock

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #25 on: Apr 13, 2011, 07:26 »
I'm not sure where I fall out on this one....

I initially went through the piepline back in 1990, and the drop rate at NFAS and NPS was very high.  If you went to mast, you weren't likely to be retained in the program.  If you were academically challenged, there wasn't many chances to fix yourself (they did sometimes "roll back" guys in NFAS).  Was this the right balance?

Attrition today is low, with lots of "extra" help available to get kids through the pipeline.  Is this the right balance?

Perhaps, we (Big Navy) owed more to those kids we brought in back in the day when the failure rate was much higher then it is now then to just kick them to the curb when things went awry.

I suspect the right balance is somewhere in the middle, but then again, what do I know.
“If the thought police come... we will meet them at the door, respectfully, unflinchingly, willing to die... holding a copy of the sacred Scriptures in one hand and the US Constitution in the other."

Offline Lip2303

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #26 on: Apr 13, 2011, 08:27 »
Having been through the pipeline somewhat recently (2005), I would say both NPS and Prototype are pumps now. In my section of about 30 people I believe we lost one person due to academics and he had to fail about 5 exams in a row. We had another kid who went to two academic boards, failed comp, failed overall (2.48), failed the final academic board, and they passed him saying "he will do fine in prototype". I do not remember a single dropout once we got into prototype. Once they spent all that money on you they wanted some sort of results.


 To the OP, go ELT if you can! I was ERUL at Charleston, SC S5G. ELT school is 10 weeks of amazing and being an ELT is a lot of fun I think. It pays quite well in the civilian world too!
ALARA specialist
RRPT

MacGyver

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #27 on: Apr 13, 2011, 10:55 »
I'm not sure where I fall out on this one....

I initially went through the piepline back in 1990, and the drop rate at NFAS and NPS was very high.  If you went to mast, you weren't likely to be retained in the program.  If you were academically challenged, there wasn't many chances to fix yourself (they did sometimes "roll back" guys in NFAS).  Was this the right balance?

Attrition today is low, with lots of "extra" help available to get kids through the pipeline.  Is this the right balance?

Perhaps, we (Big Navy) owed more to those kids we brought in back in the day when the failure rate was much higher then it is now then to just kick them to the curb when things went awry.

I suspect the right balance is somewhere in the middle, but then again, what do I know.

I have to agree with the "somewhere in the middle".

Having come from the 80's program where like GC mentioned it was tough.
1. If you sneezed wrong then you were out and
2. If didn't get it then you were out models

My proposal would be go back to the personnel standards of discharge from the program but do a better job of helping the poorer academic performer.  I found that the one's that put in the effort and passed (barely) ended up being the best worker's (i.e. nuke sailor's) we had.  I would like to see more effort to help those that are struggling.

BUT, you have to eliminate the drift wood from the program.

I'm glad we eliminated the "drift wood" sailors (i.e. poor attitudes, military bearing, etc.) from the program when I was in and served.  That means if you went to mast then you were automatically gone.  If you didn't met the commands standards of personal / military behavior you were gone.  Etc.

It seems the pendulum has swung to far in the students (i.e. not the Navy Nuclear Program's) favor.

Mac

Offline playswithairplanes

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #28 on: Apr 13, 2011, 11:33 »
From my perspective, I think the hardass 80s way was fine. Not just because I survived it, but because if you consider the responsibility being bestowed upon a dips**t 19 or 20 year old, we NEED to have the highest quality possible. Nuke wastes don't mean they are bad sailors, and other rates benefited highly from their presence. Hell, with out them A-Gang would have fallen apart completely. Sonar girls would have been totally limpwristed. IMO it's only the presence of these fine upstanding individuals, the Nuke Wastes, that saved these divisions. Ok, I'm being a wee bit tongue in cheek there, but the thrust of it's the truth.

We don't do our fleet any good by codling these kids in the pipeline. It just means there are more troubles the boats have to deal with when these idiots who never should have made it past Week 2 of NPS show up. The boats need to be focused on operations, not on having to worry about idiots operating nuclear power plants.

As an old salt, I was always glad and confident that when I went on watch in Maneuvering that the guys in the Engine Room were top quality, and you could rely on them no matter what. With the fallen standards I've heard about (and it may have been exaggerated, and I hope it is) I worry for our fleet. It means that when the chips are down, good people will die needlessly. The record of the Nuclear Navy is impeccable, in part due to our high quality training.
« Last Edit: Apr 13, 2011, 12:18 by Nuclear NASCAR »
Airplanes and submarines... they are similar it's just the density of the fluid that separates them

Samabby

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #29 on: Apr 13, 2011, 02:10 »
Quote from: Gamecock on Yesterday at 08:25
.....Greatest Baseball player of all time.


That's a subjective one,....throw Stan Musial in the mix and now you've got a horse

I have read several sports articles that conclude that the greatest challenge in all sports is the ability to hit a major league pitch. Ted Williams did it 4 times out of 10 for an entire season.

oooo35980

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #30 on: Apr 14, 2011, 04:34 »
The hardass method doesn't work when you take into account that the people from today are not the same as the 80s.  To be frank it's impossible to expect the same level of commitment and hard work out of the people that grew up in the 90s and 2000s.  Well, it's not impossible to expect it, you just won't get it about 95% of the time.  So the program takes what it can get and pushes them through, if it didn't then we wouldn't have enough nukes, it's as simple as that really.  It's still a filter, it just isn't a very good filter.

shocker

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #31 on: Apr 14, 2011, 04:55 »
Comparing the people getting masted in the past to the people getting masted today is apples and oranges.  From everything I have ever been told of how it "used to be" far fewer people got masted in the past.  Not so much because of a change in behavior, but because of a change in command climate.  There have been times I've felt like I know what it would have been like to live in Salem at this command...

Cherenkov

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #32 on: Apr 14, 2011, 04:59 »
The hardass method doesn't work when you take into account that the people from today are not the same as the 80s.  To be frank it's impossible to expect the same level of commitment and hard work out of the people that grew up in the 90s and 2000s.  Well, it's not impossible to expect it, you just won't get it about 95% of the time.  So the program takes what it can get and pushes them through, if it didn't then we wouldn't have enough nukes, it's as simple as that really.  It's still a filter, it just isn't a very good filter.

Hogwash. We can and do expect people to perform at high levels, regardless of their generation, and we most certainly have every right to. Hard workers are hard workers, whether they are from the 80s or 90s... They are cut from the same cloth. It is they that float to the top even after being pumped through the now low quality NNPP. Only lazy and stupid people make generational excuses, IMO.

-C

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #33 on: Apr 14, 2011, 05:08 »
There have been times I've felt like I know what it would have been like to live in Salem at this command...

Put away the crying towel  >:(  Just at Nuke School, I knew 3 guys that were above 2.5 that were denuked without even so much as a mast. One mentioned at the Univ. of Ariz. sponsored NASAP class he had drank to passing out - she snitched him out and he was gone within the week. One guy climbed the fence back into NTC Orlando with a 0.38 BAC, gone within a month. Another guy was well about 2.5, but due to answering a Rx physics question with "spontaneous fission", had to see section adviser who sent him to the shrinks at Medical, who got him discharged for 'excessive Christian fanatacism'. The MM drinkers were both mellow drunks who would've  made decent shipmates, and the EM tutored classmates on his own time. There have been plenty of bad deals and bad calls on who should be a Nuke for 4 decades now, trying to maintain as close to a zero-defect environment as possible (we'd like to hope)

Offline Gamecock

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #34 on: Apr 14, 2011, 08:16 »
Threadjack in progress.......


Dave,
I really like the new profile photo....


Marssim,
TW missed parts of 5 seasons, three of those years were prime years, fighting in WW2 and Korea.  If you project his stats for those years, there really is no debate.  He likely would have been the all-time home run king.  It pains me to say he's the greatest, since I'm as big a Yankee fan as you (maybe), but I show respect where it is due.

Threadjack complete......
“If the thought police come... we will meet them at the door, respectfully, unflinchingly, willing to die... holding a copy of the sacred Scriptures in one hand and the US Constitution in the other."

shocker

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #35 on: Apr 14, 2011, 08:26 »
That was my point HydroDave.  It takes a whole lot to get dropped from the program these days.  Most masted people don't get kicked out of the program in the current setting.  However, the command is much more likely to take people to mast.  For example - a similar incident happened to your .38 BAC occurance and 15+ people were taken to mast.  Most of which are still in the program.  From what I understand of how it used to be, only those immediately involved would have been masted when it was a "filter".

The Salem remark was made in reference to the mass mastings more so than to "bad deals".

MacGyver

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #36 on: Apr 15, 2011, 07:32 »
 
  From what I understand of how it used to be, only those immediately involved would have been masted when it was a "filter".

The Salem remark was made in reference to the mass mastings more so than to "bad deals".

You would be wrong.  If you were party too or had knowledge of said event (and did nothing) in the old days and they could (and in most cases they didn't care if they could) prove it then you went to mast and you were toast.

You don't have any idea what the old program was like, obviously.

Do not pass go and do not collect $200.

Mac

MacGyver

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #37 on: Apr 15, 2011, 07:58 »
Just as a reminder:

Sailor’s Creed

“I am a United States Sailor.  I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America and I will obey the orders of those appointed over me.  I represent the fighting spirit of the Navy and those who have gone before me to defend freedom and democracy around the world. I proudly serve my country’s Navy combat team with honor, courage and commitment.  I am committed to excellence and the fair treatment of all.”

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #38 on: Apr 15, 2011, 07:59 »
You would be wrong.  If you were party too or had knowledge of said event (and did nothing) in the old days and they could (and in most cases they didn't care if they could) prove it then you went to mast and you were toast.

You don't have any idea what the old program was like, obviously.

Do not pass go and do not collect $200.

Mac

I think he's refering to old navy more then old nuke. Some of the crap people got masted for was mind blowing. Kid in my division was sent to mast for falling off his motorcycle without wearing a leather jacket. Off base. He was wearing a helmet (the only LEGALLY required PPE). Just the first example that comes to mind. We all heard stories of "old navy" where your chief was god and handled everything.

Stopping myself before I go into a massive, self catalytic rant, but you get my point ;)

MacGyver

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #39 on: Apr 15, 2011, 08:51 »

I think he's refering to old navy more then old nuke.

Really?  I think you might want to re-evaluate your position CM.

One
Mainly because Im still in A-school.  It's a pain to change into NSU/Civilian clothes to run to the store or get a haircut off base just to come back and change back into NWU's, finish the homework, change back into civilian clothes to sleep in...  Granted its a minor inconvienence but Im practicing the whole bitching sailor thing :-P

Two
Comparing the people getting masted in the past to the people getting masted today is apples and oranges.  From everything I have ever been told of how it "used to be" far fewer people got masted in the past.  Not so much because of a change in behavior, but because of a change in command climate.  There have been times I've felt like I know what it would have been like to live in Salem at this command...

Three
That was my point HydroDave.  It takes a whole lot to get dropped from the program these days.  Most masted people don't get kicked out of the program in the current setting.  However, the command is much more likely to take people to mast.  For example - a similar incident happened to your .38 BAC occurance and 15+ people were taken to mast.  Most of which are still in the program.  From what I understand of how it used to be, only those immediately involved would have been masted when it was a "filter".

The Salem remark was made in reference to the mass mastings more so than to "bad deals".

In one it appears that (s)he is still in A School.  Thusly, (s)he wouldn't know what the Naval Nuclear Power Program much less the Regular Navy is or is not like.

Please re-read the other quoted posts and tell me honestly that you believe your statement is still valid.

Mac

shocker

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #40 on: Apr 17, 2011, 01:14 »
Mac, thank you for highlighting that - as I said - my knowledge of past events in the training pipeline was second hand.  Thank you also for pointing out that I am a current student in the pipeline.  From your posts I know that you were in my shoes in the 80's, and are now no longer in the Navy.  In other words - my experience with the pipeline in the 80's are roughly the same as your experience with the current pipeline.

It is frustrating to always hear the same thing ("If you haven't done a sea tour, you dont know squat") when that experience is unrelated to the topic at hand.  I offered my opinion of a current student at NNPTC on a topic that had shifted (as it usually does) from NPTU to the training pipeline in general.  My opinion is shared by many of my fellow students (I would say a majority).  We base our comparison to the multitudes of stories we hear about Orlando, and when Charleston first opened, which are usually followed by "You could get away with it back then, it wasn't like it is now."

That said the NNPP has been around 60 years.  The "old days" are going to be different for most people you talk to.  It would be difficult to find many people who had experience with the program in the 80's and are still with the program.  While I don't doubt the truth of your experiences, I would not say they represent an exact representation of the pipeline for the entire 60 years.  For example for the first 5 years of the 80's I doubt underage drinking was as big of an issue as it would have been in the second half of the decade, or as it is today.

Offline spekkio

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #41 on: Apr 17, 2011, 03:06 »
Quote
It is frustrating to always hear the same thing ("If you haven't done a sea tour, you dont know squat") when that experience is unrelated to the topic at hand.  I offered my opinion of a current student at NNPTC on a topic that had shifted (as it usually does) from NPTU to the training pipeline in general.  My opinion is shared by many of my fellow students (I would say a majority).  We base our comparison to the multitudes of stories we hear about Orlando, and when Charleston first opened, which are usually followed by "You could get away with it back then, it wasn't like it is now."
You get flack because it's difficult to judge the quality of a training program until you see the results. That won't happen until you are qualified and talk to a new gaggle of prototype graduates who can't intelligently talk about any of the few systems or components that are actually the same between prototype and the ship.

Doesn't really matter too much in the end, though, because you have to undo all the negative operational training for the smart people anyway.
« Last Edit: Apr 17, 2011, 03:10 by spekkio »

drayer54

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #42 on: Apr 17, 2011, 03:32 »
I think that it is in our nature to look at those coming up behind us and think they aren't where we were and it wasn't as tough as it was for me.  :old:I think that it is true when older generations look at younger generations coming out of school or older members of the workforce looking at the newer ones. I know I said some dumb stuff about nuclear power when I was at S8G, just like most of you probably did in that phase, then we learn... We have several bright individuals in the program today, just like we did when Marssim walked through the snow and up the hill to get power school, and that was before boots!

"You could get away with it back then, it wasn't like it is now."
I heard that one too and think some things were probably better and others have become better. It goes both ways. I wanted that life back in the plant far more than I did during the pipeline.
More like the shadow of Rickover fading,...

The shadow fades,.....
This is true as well. It's his program and in his absence it has slowly loosened the grip for sure. I think that was unavoidable.

Offline DDMurray

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #43 on: Apr 17, 2011, 07:28 »
I was in NNPS Class 8502.  I went to conventional EM A school in Great Lakes where you had to be above some class ranking to continue on to NNPS pre-school.  I went to three week pre-school.
   Things I remember guys getting dropped for:
- Being late for the third time
- Failure to do homework after formal counseling
- Getting injured in motorcycle accident and not wearing a helmet
- Speeding ticket after receiving speeding ticket waiver
- Dropped at NPTU out-hull for flunking spill training
- Masted, sent to CCU right after the mast (not even allowed to pick up his stuff) after getting 30% behind the qual curve and missing target set after command review board

I returned to NPS as a section advisor in April 1990.  By then NFAS was stood up.  Things guys got kicked out for:
-See above
- Under age drinkers generally busted and retained.  Many re-earned their crows.
-Passing a week 24 (comp) academic board was rare.

I returned to NNPTC in Feb 1998.
Things guys got retained for:
- Cheating on homework
- Running a business selling fake IDs to underage drinkers
- Chance of being retained regardless of Comp academic board performance was probably >75%

On the non-tangible side, when I reported to my first boat in 1986, the CPOs all complained about the poor quality of pipeline grads.
When I returned to the fleet as an E Div Chief, I couldn't believe the guys they were sending to the fleet.
When I was EDMC in new con, I couldn't believe some of the guys who made it through special screening.
The more things change, the more things stay the same.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
T. Roosevelt

Offline 730SMAG

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #44 on: Apr 18, 2011, 09:38 »
I went through NFAS 0326 and NPS 0404 (Yeah, yeah, I was supposed to be in 0306, but something called a security clearance got me), and I'll put it this way...

It felt, to me, like the guys coming after me were pumped through the program.  Admittedly, the old salts on my boat said the same thing about my class, but I certainly felt like there was a step down in overall pipeline quality.  We had people coming in, as I was getting out, who basically had to be sat down and taught BEQ stuff from the ground up - this is a steam turbine, this is the Rankine cycle, basic reactor physics, etc.

MacGyver

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #45 on: Apr 18, 2011, 12:58 »
Mac, thank you for highlighting that - as I said - my knowledge of past events in the training pipeline was second hand.  Thank you also for pointing out that I am a current student in the pipeline.  From your posts I know that you were in my shoes in the 80's, and are now no longer in the Navy.  In other words - my experience with the pipeline in the 80's are roughly the same as your experience with the current pipeline.

It is frustrating to always hear the same thing ("If you haven't done a sea tour, you dont know squat") when that experience is unrelated to the topic at hand.  I offered my opinion of a current student at NNPTC on a topic that had shifted (as it usually does) from NPTU to the training pipeline in general.  My opinion is shared by many of my fellow students (I would say a majority).  We base our comparison to the multitudes of stories we hear about Orlando, and when Charleston first opened, which are usually followed by "You could get away with it back then, it wasn't like it is now."

That said the NNPP has been around 60 years.  The "old days" are going to be different for most people you talk to.  It would be difficult to find many people who had experience with the program in the 80's and are still with the program.  While I don't doubt the truth of your experiences, I would not say they represent an exact representation of the pipeline for the entire 60 years.  For example for the first 5 years of the 80's I doubt underage drinking was as big of an issue as it would have been in the second half of the decade, or as it is today.

Shocker, my post was not meant to "call you out".  Using someone's posts to clarify there experience is completely leggit.

I am just pointing out, and manifested in your post, you have zero knowledge of your own era much less one that exsisted before you were born.

Those are the facts.  When you finish a 6 year tour then you can comment on your era.  And, maybe, make some comparisions regarding previous ones.

You have every right to post on the current events you witness.  We appreciate those kinds of posts from "nubs" ..  :P ;) :o ;D

Peace
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 12:59 by MacGyver »

ravenuke

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #46 on: Apr 18, 2011, 08:50 »
Prototype is very much a pump.  Not any different from A school or Power school.  I have came through the program with a sailor who failed the majority of the tests in A school including comp, got an ac board and was pushed through.  This same person failed 13 exams in power school including comp, and as before, got a super easy GED ac board and was pushed through.  The same is happening at prototype.  Kid failed his 50 on all sections.  All that will happen is he will get a long remedial, take it again (probably fail again) and be counseled. 

I say this about this kid, because he is very unintelligent, but he works hard.  That is all that matters.  If you are so stupid that you can barely tie your shoe but you are trying extra hard and put in plus hours, you are as good as the kid who is 30% ahead of the curve.

On the other hand, short your hours and be stupid, you're out.  Get a DUI, you are out.  Decide you've got the brain pain and want to kill yourself and they may get rid of you, at least deNuke you.


drayer54

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #47 on: Apr 18, 2011, 09:02 »
I say this about this kid, because he is very unintelligent, but he works hard.  That is all that matters.  If you are so stupid that you can barely tie your shoe but you are trying extra hard and put in plus hours, you are as good as the kid who is 30% ahead of the curve.
I'm sure he will do just fine in the fleet. My experience tells me that these guys can end up being a valuable asset to a division with some work ethic. I am not saying that dumb guys automatically have it, but it sounds like he does... and will do quite well. It's those guys that slide through without trying and then end up never trying on anything that drive me nuts.
On the other hand, short your hours and be stupid, you're out.  Get a DUI, you are out.  Decide you've got the brain pain and want to kill yourself and they may get rid of you, at least deNuke you.
That's called being a "Sad Panda." If you're a facebook user, you can look up the Sad Pandas of RX. Department group. It started as a few ELT's on Truman making fun of the Sad Panda's and then slowly everyone else caught on and now it's a big group with a ton of nukes in there. This is the same in the fleet.
« Last Edit: Apr 19, 2011, 01:22 by drayer54 »

Specterx96

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #48 on: Apr 25, 2011, 11:37 »
week 16 of sc 5sg proto this place is definitely a pump, if it was a filter i would have been gone in NFAS

MacGyver

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #49 on: Apr 25, 2011, 11:45 »
week 16 of sc 5sg proto this place is definitely a pump, if it was a filter i would have been gone in NFAS

S5W (re: 5sg)?!?!?!?!?  I didn't think that SC proto had any S5G's?  Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, I think you're right.  More proof that the Navy's Nuclear Program is approaching a Specific Gravity of 1.


Cycoticpenguin

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #50 on: Apr 25, 2011, 11:53 »
week 16 of sc 5sg proto this place is definitely a pump, if it was a filter i would have been gone in NFAS

Obvious is obvious.

Offline Quinton

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #51 on: May 16, 2011, 10:28 »
As a former instructor of the S8G prototype, in lovely Ballston Spa NY, I would have to say that the system is most definately a pump.  It was hard for us to even propose that we get rid of any of the dumb kids, let alone ones that somehow managed to survive to week 24.  As an example -
The legend of the Soup Pirate.
So, there I was, it was a cold, harsh winter, and the snow storms managed to knock out the power.  A student that ended up in my section decided that during the cold, she wanted to warm up with a nice warm can of soup.  Now, normal people take the soup out of the can when they heat up their soup... not the Soup Pirate.  She slapped that can of warm delicious broth on the stovetop and turned it on.  A few minutes later, Soup Pirate decided it was warm enough and turned the stove off.  Now, comes the tricky part.  Opening the can of soup.
Yep - you guessed it.  IN THE FACE!!!  The scalding hot soup expelled from the canister into her face and gave he second degree burns to her eyelid, and the good ol' clinic gave her a complimentary eye patch.

She is now a qualified member of the Surface Fleet.....
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 10:29 by Quinton »

MacGyver

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #52 on: May 17, 2011, 12:34 »
As a former instructor of the S8G prototype, in lovely Ballston Spa NY, I would have to say that the system is most definately a pump.  It was hard for us to even propose that we get rid of any of the dumb kids, let alone ones that somehow managed to survive to week 24.  As an example -
The legend of the Soup Pirate.
So, there I was, it was a cold, harsh winter, and the snow storms managed to knock out the power.  A student that ended up in my section decided that during the cold, she wanted to warm up with a nice warm can of soup.  Now, normal people take the soup out of the can when they heat up their soup... not the Soup Pirate.  She slapped that can of warm delicious broth on the stovetop and turned it on.  A few minutes later, Soup Pirate decided it was warm enough and turned the stove off.  Now, comes the tricky part.  Opening the can of soup.
Yep - you guessed it.  IN THE FACE!!!  The scalding hot soup expelled from the canister into her face and gave he second degree burns to her eyelid, and the good ol' clinic gave her a complimentary eye patch.

She is now a qualified member of the Surface Fleet.....

[sos]


Patiently awaiting a new warning label ..  >:(

Quote


Cycoticpenguin

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #53 on: May 17, 2011, 02:04 »
Im curious what hiring managers think when they read these kinds of threads...

MacGyver

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #54 on: May 17, 2011, 02:41 »
Im curious what hiring managers think when they read these kinds of threads...

They do not need these threads to determine the worth of an ex-navy nuke.  They hire them and see their results in their training program.

As a point of reference a particular company that hires ex-nav-nukes has seen them just barely make it through the program whereas the non-nav-nukes do a better job in training.  I would also add the non-nav-nukes have a better attitude about 50% of the time.  A total plus for off the street non-nav-nukes.

These threads just advertise the demise of a once guaranteed good product to the rest of the world.

YMWV

Offline Higgs

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #55 on: May 17, 2011, 04:33 »
From my experience, the non-hackers and slack asses won't typically make it through an well conducted interview anyway. Do some slip through? Yes, but like Mac alluded to, they will be weeded out eventually. One thing is for certain, commercial ops ain't pumping anyone through anything.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 04:34 by TheHiggs »
"How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic.” - Ted Nugent

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #56 on: May 17, 2011, 08:55 »
From my experience, the non-hackers and slack asses won't typically make it through an well conducted interview anyway. Do some slip through? Yes, but like Mac alluded to, they will be weeded out eventually. One thing is for certain, commercial ops ain't pumping anyone through anything.

I should start a betting pool sometime after 2015, when the Naval Nuclear Program (after recovering from the "Laurel and Hardy" (CJCS/CNO) nubification of the program) flips 180, raises initial enlistment age for Navy nukes, and starts poaching NLOs from the civilian industry in order to have recruits that actually know something nuclear, can pass a piss test and a POSS test and know how to handle rotating shifts.

Just sayin'   [whistle] [whistle] [whistle]

Offline Marlin

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #57 on: May 17, 2011, 09:28 »
They do not need these threads to determine the worth of an ex-navy nuke.  They hire them and see their results in their training program.

As a point of reference a particular company that hires ex-nav-nukes has seen them just barely make it through the program whereas the non-nav-nukes do a better job in training.  I would also add the non-nav-nukes have a better attitude about 50% of the time.  A total plus for off the street non-nav-nukes.

These threads just advertise the demise of a once guaranteed good product to the rest of the world.

YMWV

  Very sad, when I got out Navy Nukes were in great demand if they are no longer in that category it's a little like seeing a SEAL with a muffin top to me.

Sun Dog

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #58 on: May 17, 2011, 10:21 »

I would also add the non-nav-nukes have a better attitude about 50% of the time.  A total plus for off the street non-nav-nukes.


If 50% have a better attitude than 50% must have the same attitude, a worse attitude, or no attitude.   Seems like a push rather than a total plus.

« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 10:45 by Sun Dog »

MacGyver

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #59 on: May 17, 2011, 10:27 »
What I meant was that from my experience for every nav-nuke that had a good attitude you could find that number plus an additional 50% (i.e. more) that had a equal too or better attitude (re: non-nav-nukes).  Mac

Offline 730SMAG

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #60 on: May 17, 2011, 11:01 »
What I meant was that from my experience for every nav-nuke that had a good attitude you could find that number plus an additional 50% (i.e. more) that had a equal too or better attitude (re: non-nav-nukes).  Mac

I think that the poor attitude comes from the fact that the Nuclear Navy tends to dick people over into a certain level of grudging dissatisfaction and marginal ability to work.  I know that when I reported onboard the Hate My Job, I was enthusiastic about things and gung-ho about qualifying and learning my field.

A year and a half of the shipyard later, I was counting down the days to my EAOS, because every day was an adventure in how BOHICA could be applied to a department with effectively zero morale who only did their jobs because they still craved a little self-pride and not even the CoC could destroy everyone's will to at least function.

I mean, yes, I take a decent chunk of that on as a personal responsibility for my own attitude, but it wouldn't have taken too much effort to ensure that the department wasn't filled with people who were re-enlisting for orders off the boat, doing six-and-out, or staying in because they were 10+ already and they could "endure just a few more years until rotation." 


Anyway, that's what I see as why the attitudes of Navy Nukes tend towards "bad attitudes," we get broken these days.  There's very little job satisfaction, we don't really have much incentive to be happy, and most of us look forward to getting the hell away from the boat and forgetting it as soon as possible.

MacGyver

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #61 on: May 17, 2011, 11:11 »
I think I have confused you. Yes, I am sure that is true for all nav-nuke generations. But, this attitude issue is or was not even a blip on the radar with the pre'1995 (ish) nav-nukes. It is a major problem with the post'1995 (ish) nav-nukes. It has caught or training departments attention. And not in a good way.  Mac

Offline 730SMAG

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #62 on: May 18, 2011, 12:11 »
I think I have confused you. Yes, I am sure that is true for all nav-nuke generations. But, this attitude issue is or was not even a blip on the radar with the pre'1995 (ish) nav-nukes. It is a major problem with the post'1995 (ish) nav-nukes. It has caught or training departments attention. And not in a good way.  Mac

Hrm.  Maybe you have confused me; I can't really think of anything that would have a definite turning point like that, unless it's a generational thing - I know that my generation, the post 9/11 one - tends to be more open and upfront about our complaints and attitudes than older ones.  Or I might be talking out my butt and performing rectal data extraction; could someone else weigh in on this?

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #63 on: May 18, 2011, 12:42 »
I think I have confused you. Yes, I am sure that is true for all nav-nuke generations. But, this attitude issue is or was not even a blip on the radar with the pre'1995 (ish) nav-nukes. It is a major problem with the post'1995 (ish) nav-nukes. It has caught or training departments attention. And not in a good way.  Mac

I have a theory on that early/mid-90s point of inflection, only a theory: In that time frame, only one new nuclear plant went commercial, and several nuclear facilities either halted future hiring that had been in pipeline (a short-lived attempt to staff up for Browns Ferry, some tentative plans for restarting small-quantity production at Rocky Flats) or outright reductions in force at several utilities looking to reduce staffing costs due to rising costs of corporate bonds/lines of credit. In other words, the 6-and-out Non-Leakage probablity went way up due to lack of gravy nuclear jobs on the outside. High operatnig tempo in a shrinking fleet certainly didn't help.

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #64 on: May 18, 2011, 11:18 »
I think that the poor attitude comes from the fact that the Nuclear Navy tends to dick people over into a certain level of grudging dissatisfaction and marginal ability to work.  I know that when I reported onboard the Hate My Job, I was enthusiastic about things and gung-ho about qualifying and learning my field.

I dunno dude. There was a LOT of brainwashing when I was in. Constantly told "we're the best of the best of the best", and that employers would be BEGGING us for jobs when we got out. Perhaps the "attitude" problem stems from that more so then being screwed over? We were consistently told that civ plants hire navy nukes to a fault, didnt matter how you acted, you were getting in!  Obviously not true, at least not any more. My plant didnt even hire one an ex navy nuke that interviewed because he had a poor attitude during his interview. Being on the outside looking in now, barring careerists that were getting out, it suprised me how painfully ignorant we all were about the civilian process. Its a common reverse mentality that the Nav was the "major leagues" and civ life was "easy" when in reality, its the other way around, correct?

Were you "old timers" (pre 95' as per mac's statement) "brainwashed" like we were?

Offline Higgs

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #65 on: May 18, 2011, 12:02 »
Yeah I remember that brainwashing and I am 1998 vintage navy nuke. "They" also told us that civilian nukes looked to the NNPP for its standards. Of course, now I know just how absurd that is. I also realized quickly that those saying those sorts of thing never worked in the commercial world and were therefore talking out their arses. Then when I started thinking about EAOS, I talked to an Entergy shift manager that gave me some perspective when he said "Navy nukes need to realize that no one is standing outside that gate waiting to hand you a 6 figure job." I think that is the belief quite a number of Navy nukes hold, hence the attitudes some are experiencing.

All of that said, whether now or 20 years ago, hard workers and people with their sh*t all in one sock can get a job and be successful in this industry. The creme of the crop will still rise to the top. Do we (commercial nukes) have to do some more skimming now than in the past? Perhaps, but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing.
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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #66 on: May 18, 2011, 12:06 »
Were you "old timers" (pre 95' as per mac's statement) "brainwashed" like we were?

Speaking from the point of view of a commercial-bred RP watching decades worth of ex-Navy Nukes on their first outages... yes. But for most of them it didn't last long when confronted by reality.
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Offline Marlin

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #67 on: May 18, 2011, 12:25 »
   How about pre-1985 in the late 70's there wasn't a lot of influx yet but it was starting. I saw a lot of changes toward the Navy way of doing things including hiring ex-Navy admirals to honcho troubled plants. It did not take long to saturate and adapt to a middle ground, by the 90s Navy influence was a "been there done that".

Offline OldHP

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #68 on: May 18, 2011, 04:53 »
How about pre-1985 in the late 70's there wasn't a lot of influx yet but it was starting. I saw a lot of changes toward the Navy way of doing things including hiring ex-Navy admirals to honcho troubled plants. It did not take long to saturate and adapt to a middle ground, by the 90s Navy influence was a "been there done that". 

Attitudes were always there, but not as previlant - I interviewed a guy - LELT (74 -75 timeframe) that actually said, "I put out 8 years in the Navy, you commercial guys owe me a job"!  Another plant hired him and he failed in the initial training phase!

The creation/formation of INPO (post-TMI) 'with a heavy Navy influence', created a demand for NNPP experience; however, the commercial industry adapted to the 'INPO Standards' and found out quickly that they could train locals to do the task at hand (all areas) with less cost and risk!

JMO   [dowave]
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Cycoticpenguin

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #69 on: May 18, 2011, 05:59 »
Oldhp, you were interviewing people 12 years before I was born :p

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #70 on: May 18, 2011, 06:08 »
Oldhp, you were interviewing people 12 years before I was born :p

Just means he was helping to set y'all up for success...let's see if Gen Whine can keep those high standards ;)

Offline Marlin

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #71 on: May 18, 2011, 06:40 »
The creation/formation of INPO (post-TMI) 'with a heavy Navy influence', created a demand for NNPP experience; however, the commercial industry adapted to the 'INPO Standards' and found out quickly that they could train locals to do the task at hand (all areas) with less cost and risk!

JMO   [dowave]

I have to agree with that, INPO was staffed by a lot of "Ring Knockers". But then INPO and Navy influence brought not just the people but the programs (including training) to a different level, there was a coal burner mentality that was common in Nukes before then.

Offline OldHP

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #72 on: May 18, 2011, 10:11 »
I have to agree with that, INPO was staffed by a lot of "Ring Knockers". But then INPO and Navy influence brought not just the people but the programs (including training) to a different level, there was a coal burner mentality that was common in Nukes before then.

Big yeah, particularly training!  When a certain SE Utility opened their training center in the 70s the folks who staffed it were the folks that couldn't cut it in the plants (as always with a few exceptions).  Rather than let someone go because they couldn't do the job, the attitude was 'well let's see if the TC has a place for him/her'!  Correct, even among the real nukes the attitude was 'well we hired this person we have an obligation'!

It was more obvious north of the mason-dixon, at one time the U-1 TD at a particular plant had cubicles for those relieved from duty in the plant, including folks caught asleep at the wheel, but not fired!
Humor is a wonderful way to prevent hardening of the attitudes! unknown
The government is like a baby's alimentary canal, with a happy appetite at one end and no responsibility at the other. Regan

Offline Cleaver6

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #73 on: May 24, 2011, 03:33 »
Greetings,

I've been reading through posts on here with great interest because my son is interested in joining the Navy. He originally wanted to become a corpsman. However, due to several factors, among them: there would be a long waiting list, my wife's strong objection to his being attached to a Marine combat unit, the high score he recorded on the little "pre-Asvab" test they give in the recruiter's office, he's now looking at becoming a nuke.

Anyway, that's why I'm here.

As to the morale and attitude issue, please know that in my industry, semiconductor manufacturing, we still look very favorably upon resumes of former Navy nukes. Other than the almost certainty that they are quirky, we know their breadth of knowledge makes them good candidates to be equipment maintenance technicians in our fabs.
Ex-Marine avionics tech; father of prospective sailor.

Offline RDTroja

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #74 on: May 24, 2011, 08:25 »
Greetings,

I've been reading through posts on here with great interest because my son is interested in joining the Navy. He originally wanted to become a corpsman. However, due to several factors, among them: there would be a long waiting list, my wife's strong objection to his being attached to a Marine combat unit, the high score he recorded on the little "pre-Asvab" test they give in the recruiter's office, he's now looking at becoming a nuke.

Anyway, that's why I'm here.

As to the morale and attitude issue, please know that in my industry, semiconductor manufacturing, we still look very favorably upon resumes of former Navy nukes. Other than the almost certainty that they are quirky, we know their breadth of knowledge makes them good candidates to be equipment maintenance technicians in our fabs.

Quirky... I like that. Very polite.  ;)
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Cycoticpenguin

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #75 on: May 24, 2011, 01:00 »
Greetings,

I've been reading through posts on here with great interest because my son is interested in joining the Navy. He originally wanted to become a corpsman. However, due to several factors, among them: there would be a long waiting list, my wife's strong objection to his being attached to a Marine combat unit, the high score he recorded on the little "pre-Asvab" test they give in the recruiter's office, he's now looking at becoming a nuke.

Anyway, that's why I'm here.

As to the morale and attitude issue, please know that in my industry, semiconductor manufacturing, we still look very favorably upon resumes of former Navy nukes. Other than the almost certainty that they are quirky, we know their breadth of knowledge makes them good candidates to be equipment maintenance technicians in our fabs.

whats the pay like :p


Cool, good luck to your son on his endeavours and the trials he will face if he goes nuke :)


Offline Marlin

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #76 on: May 24, 2011, 05:01 »
Quirky... I like that. Very polite.  ;)

For some of us we prefer Eccentric Lords of Technology     [coffee]
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 05:02 by Marlin »

Offline Cleaver6

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #77 on: May 24, 2011, 07:22 »
whats the pay like :p


Cool, good luck to your son on his endeavours and the trials he will face if he goes nuke :)



Base pay for a fresh out with no experience in semiconductors would be in the neighborhood of $50K-$60K.

Thanks for the good luck wishes.
Ex-Marine avionics tech; father of prospective sailor.

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #78 on: May 24, 2011, 07:23 »
Base pay for a fresh out with no experience in semiconductors would be in the neighborhood of $50K-$60K.

Thanks for the good luck wishes.

thats not too shabby!! :)


Offline goobs22xx

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #79 on: May 24, 2011, 09:15 »
Thanks for posting, Cleaver.

Good luck to your boy.

MacGyver

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #80 on: May 26, 2011, 07:41 »
Pump!  Pump!  Pump!  Pump!  Pump!  Pump!  Pump!  Pump!  Pump!  Pump!  Pump!  Pump!

cedugger

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #81 on: May 29, 2011, 10:32 »
I had 14 guys that worked under me in RadCon in '99, many of which were new from prototype...this is when I first questioned the changing standards of the nuclear Navy. It had nothing to do with the level of knowledge of these kids...more about their attitudes. The economy was booming and it was harder to recruit then...I got that and all worked out well in the end with these guys.

I was staff at NPTU Charleston '00-'04 and I don't think the role was any different from when I went through in '94-'95. A-School & NPS were the filters and prototype was to get these kids to the fleet where they were desperately needed. They had proven themselves to a point and were trainable and trustworthy (always exceptions). We always called it a pump as well...a pump with minimal leakage (drugs & such), but a pump all the same.

As far as morale and attitudes...I was on the 'Mobile Chernobyl' (CVAN-65) and of course we had times when it really sucked, but it wasn't all the time. I personally couldn't have asked for a better way to get my experience...it's what we make of it. I certainly didn't expect $100k jobs when I got out and anyone who does needs to do some research or risk serious disappointment!

monkbirdduke

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #82 on: Jun 08, 2011, 08:12 »
I graduated about 4ish years ago...I'm not sure if it was a filter or a pump.  I think if word came down that they needed more nukes, the leadership would just put alot more pressure on the staff to get the dumb kids qualified.  I don't know if that really counts as lowering the standard though.  We had massive training holds at prototype when i was there, so we all knew the systems as well as the staff (maybe not the operations though).  I only saw one of the officers on my crew fail out.  Everyone else passed, and deserved to.  I'd say it's worth finishing though; I just got out three months ago, and picked up a 70K job as an I&C tech at a water company in Sonoma. 

Offline Cleaver6

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #83 on: Jun 26, 2011, 01:46 »
Update time. My son scored a 64 on the NAPT and is in the Nuke program. He was sworn in to the DEP last week and his ship date to boot camp is November 9th. We're not sure how that worked out when we've seen other people posting ship dates that are much later, but he's quite excited.
Ex-Marine avionics tech; father of prospective sailor.

Offline Marlin

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #84 on: Jun 26, 2011, 08:27 »
Good luck to your son...


Semper Fi to you...

Offline Cleaver6

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #85 on: Jun 27, 2011, 01:04 »
Good luck to your son...


Semper Fi to you...

Thank you.
Ex-Marine avionics tech; father of prospective sailor.

drayer54

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #86 on: Jul 03, 2011, 01:29 »
Well a wise person once told me:

Every generation has complained about the generation that came after them, yet we continue to survive
Not only are they continuing to survive, the other E in the surface fleet just gave out big MONEY (which is roughly 39 Ford Mustangs) to those who are keeping the model of surface nuclear power alive and well. They may be too [insert  :old: :old: here] for many of your standards, but it's still steaming and selling jewelry and letter jackets on the messdecks. We also know that with it's new CO, it's remembering the dawn and dodging fog at every opportunity!

We as LPO's, LCPO's, DIVO's, PA's, etc...need to stop complaining about the level of knowledge todays newbie's have.  The current system is not going to change.  So,  it is a leadership challenge that WE as leaders need to overcome.

BTW...when I was a young nub MM3 back in 1990 I occasionally heard the "old timers" complaining about the level of knowledge of the nubs.   I'll bet if you if you went into the way back machine and emerged in the 1970's you probably would have heard some crusty MM1 complaining about the level of knowledge of his nubs.  Same thing over and over. 
I don't always agree with Gamecock, in fact I don't even like the SEC or the old ball coach... but this is one of the best statements on the subject that I have seen in some time. It was probably all that submarine time that gave him this Rocky insight on the topic.


MacGyver

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #87 on: Jul 03, 2011, 08:13 »
I am pretty sure this thread is dead?!?!?  But, I better make sure ...

Quote








[DH]

drayer54

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #88 on: Jul 04, 2011, 02:48 »
I am pretty sure this thread is dead?!?!?  But, I better make sure ...

[DH]
[OT] [OT] [hijack] [OT] [hijack] <3 [GH] [agree] :-> [OT] [boohoo] [devious] :dupe: [Flamer]
Was that Dick Cheney in that video?



As for the thread:
« Last Edit: Jul 04, 2011, 03:07 by Drayer »

Offline Gamma Glue

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #89 on: Jul 05, 2011, 10:56 »
Pump.

I was an instructor there for almost 4 years (left last year) and was a TC before I left. Most of the attrition is due to poor performance on exams, there isn't much we can do about that, or from students that "can't take it" and choose the medical route.
As far as exams go, the 50% exam is only to determine your performance and see how well you'll do on the Comp. If you fail the 50 twice, nothing happens. Infact, no one even looks at if if you pass, so essentially I could take your exam, plug random numbers into the computer to ensure you pass and shred the exam with out ever looking at it. However, we would rather grade it to see the ridiculous answers students provide (everyone loves a good laugh). The Comp is different, if you fail twice, you're out. That might sound like a filter, but we tell you exactly how to answer the questions ("shotgunning" is allowed and pretty much required if you want to do well), and most good End of Card checkouts should have common Comp questions in them, mine always did. Plus there have even been a few who got to take the test a third time. Students have failed so many watches they have to get another page added to their books (the most I saw was over 20 watches and he still failed after NR declined his third Final Watch Board). When we get you ready for your final oral board we pretty much tell you exactly what is going to be asked, which is obvious if you have paid attention the the types of questions up to that point. If I wanted someone to pass I knew what to ask and what to stay away from. It pretty much like a script. I could still tell you what they will ask during your oral board (as long as you are an MM) The only student I failed at an oral board was basically doing the exact opposite Immediate Actions, twice (killed everyone the first time and tried to on the second casualty), hard to pull a passing grade from that. There are plenty of students that I thought would be terrible as an operator, had poor grades, poor performance, and a bad attitude that still made it. Infact, my entire crew thought one should fail, we told his board members to fail him , and they still passed him. (This is usually due to the civilians, they always pass you the second time). A friend of mine is on a sub with one of our ex-students who passed but shouldn't have, and the kid is still terrible, can't do a thing right and sucks at life in general. That being said, prototype has to be a pump, it wouldn't work any other way. Some people don't even see a need for it. It wasn't designed to make you the worlds best operator. When you show up to your first Ship (or boat for the tubers) all they expect you to do is talk on phones, take a set of logs, know how to qualify and (oddly enough) live on your own. It's funny but one of prototypes teachings is how to live in town on your own. Most sailors are out of high school and have no idea how to, which is why we are so into you personal life and it's one of the first places we look when things start to go bad.

 


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